Negativity About English Teachers In Thailand On Here?

[maxme]

As for the "Never use Thai" debate, I'd just say look at the most successful teacher of the lot; Andrew Biggs, and ask if his technique has been a success.

I'd wager you'd find your average Thai would learn more from one of his shows than a month with some prat rattling out his TEFL games aimlessly.

Those "experienced teachers" here saying that you don't need to use the learner's native language in order to teach them successfully are a huge indicator of why the level of English in Thailand is so abysmal.

And still you wonder why people don't take you seriously....?

I'm no longer going to try to argue your main point above.

However from a purely practical point of view, there are millions of Thais that need to learn English as quickly as possible. Since Thailand obviously can't afford to hire professional teachers, how on earth are they going to give enough incentive for NES people willing to work for a pittance to actually learn Thai as well?

If what you think is true, they may as well completely give up now. . .

Teachers from the Philippines speak English well enough to meet the educational needs of 90% of the Thai people. Teachers from the Philippines are available for a price that the Thai government can afford. The Thai government only needs to realize it is time to stop wasting money on white skin.

A lot of the Thai students that have teachers from Philippines admit they have difficulty in understanding them. I dunno where you get your info from but certainly not from the big city or the south.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

I believe that if someone posts on this forum, and the thread is about English, and that person purports to be better than thou with English, he then needs to write that statement using correct English or he opens himself up for a critique by the unwashed. Otherwise and for all other purposes I agree. Let it fly.

If they so purport then fine, but just because they're an English teacher doesn't imply they should be taking extra care posting here if they don't feel like going to the trouble.

And even if they're gramer is atrocoius and they speak no Thai at all, I still reckon the kiddies are better served by them than the native Thai teacher with perfect grammar but who couldn't hold a conversation past ordering food in a restaurant and asking where the toilet is.

The Thais will never be able to afford enough "properly qualified" teachers with a solid knowledge of/ command of grammar to meet their current needs, they have to make do with compromises, and in my books it's enough if the they get a NES who actually cares and goes to the trouble to try to do a decent job and realizes he needs to keep improving week by week term by term.

Those last two qualities are unfortunately missing from many of those who are in theory qualified and IMO they are much more important than details like flavour of English or grammar accuracy.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

A lot of the Thai students that have teachers from Philippines admit they have difficulty in understanding them. I dunno where you get your info from but certainly not from the big city or the south.

IMO nothing wrong with Filipinos or Indian teachers as long as they're good teachers and have a good level of reasonably-standard international English as opposed to only knowing their local patois, the strong accent issue is to me not an issue, or lots of farang would be out of the running. I do hate that sideways head-bobbling thing though 8-)

Unfortunately the fundamental problem remains - those that are doing the hiring/vetting within the Thai educational system aren't qualified themselves to be able to judge these matters, but they would never admit that fact and are therefore unable to ask for help from those who are qualified. Perfect catch-22. . .

Edited November 8, 2012 by BigJohnnyBKK

[NeverSure]

If they so purport then fine, but just because they're an English teacher doesn't imply they should be taking extra care posting here if they don't feel like going to the trouble.

Somehow we aren't communicating and I'll take the blame because I made the posts. It's not about English teachers. It's about a particular English teacher who purports to be better than other English teachers due to some superior education and experience. I mean as when there's an insinuation of being much higher and better than other teachers. Let's say even being critical of other teachers and of the possible outcome for students.

I felt that anyone taking such a stand against other English teachers or even me, the completely unwashed, should at least be able to make his (to me insulting) claims of superiority using proper English.

That was it, and all of it. It was the context.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Somehow we aren't communicating and I'll take the blame because I made the posts. It's not about English teachers. It's about a particular English teacher who

I do understand, I really do hate hypocrisy myself but I hate the haters most of all. 8-)

[maxme]

A lot of the Thai students that have teachers from Philippines admit they have difficulty in understanding them. I dunno where you get your info from but certainly not from the big city or the south.

IMO nothing wrong with Filipinos or Indian teachers as long as they're good teachers and have a good level of reasonably-standard international English as opposed to only knowing their local patois, the strong accent issue is to me not an issue, or lots of farang would be out of the running. I do hate that sideways head-bobbling thing though 8-)

Unfortunately the fundamental problem remains - those that are doing the hiring/vetting within the Thai educational system aren't qualified themselves to be able to judge these matters, but they would never admit that fact and are therefore unable to ask for help from those who are qualified. Perfect catch-22. . .

I second that... I'm pretty poor in precising my arguments as of late it seems but I was referring to CMKs post about to stop wasting money on white-skinned teachers. I find it hard to say which teacher is better than the other since we have no idea of their teaching skills or methods for that matter and it hardly has anything to do with the color of their skin.

I've seen many Brits being passed off even at schools like Depserin just because they happen to be second generation Indians. Didn't matter that they were actually better than some of the 'whiter-skinned' Brits and Americans that taught there. It's not about degrees either although that certainly helps a lot. It's about the effort the teacher put in with helping the students but that also depend on certain aspects. If the companies and schools don't give the teachers 100% support, they cannot expect or demand that the teacher can or will give 100% in return.

Blaming the teachers no matter where they are from in this matter is just lame and subjected uneducated speculations.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

I second that... I'm pretty poor in precising my arguments as of late it seems

No, very well stated cogent argument, completely agree. Not only preferring white skin but young and handsome for marketing purposes, especially in the commercial sector. Just like a beautiful receptionist and impressive-looking facilities, appearances are everything here, the market just doesn't support competition based on any kind of objective measure of quality.

If the companies and schools don't give the teachers 100% support, they cannot expect or demand that the teacher can or will give 100% in return.

It is very unusual for a school or TEFL company in Thailand to give any kind of positive support to its teachers at all, even 20% would be a very rare and wonderful exception; in fact, generally management seems hell-bent on preventing you from doing a decent job in the classroom, so the best I've come to hope for is to be left alone to do what I know to be best for my students, and maybe even to get paid what they promised within a reasonable period of time. All too often even that last bit doesn't happen, but a good teacher doesn't let such petty details get them down. . .

Edited November 8, 2012 by BigJohnnyBKK

[maxme]

True but that also depends if you work for a company or a school. Based on my experience with the private sector there the managers or the owners are the reason the teachers don't stay or last long.

There are just too many scams going on in the private sector. I went to one famous institute which I shall not name here but within 3 months the owner had lost more than twenty of the teachers he had hired. Everything from failing to reimburse teachers when he demanded extra meetings (with taxi as the only viable transportation), not issuing contracts and also responsible for contract breach with those he had signed with. He was even confronted with manipulating the contracts with the schools.

While teaching in a governmental school you know all the facts at hand before entering it, which is not the case when it comes to the institutes or tutors thus making it harder for the teachers to actually do their jobs. I feel sorry for the kids since they are the ones suffering from the grown-ups inadequacies.

Edited November 8, 2012 by maxme

[whistleblower]

A guy walks into a foreign owned bar and orders a pint. "that will be 10 baht says the landlord"

"10 baht?" replies the guy "why so cheap?"

The landlord replies "I have just won a chunk of cash on the lottery and to reward my customers i've slashed my prices to what they were in 1930"

"Thats fantastic" says the guy. He downs his pint and orders another one, again the price is 10baht. On ordering his third pint he remarks to the landlord,

"with prices this cheap, i have to ask why those 3 guys at the end of the bar arent drinking?" The landlord says:

"Oh they are English teachers and they are waiting for happ hour!"

[maxme]

A guy walks into a foreign owned bar and orders a pint. "that will be 10 baht says the landlord"

"10 baht?" replies the guy "why so cheap?"

The landlord replies "I have just won a chunk of cash on the lottery and to reward my customers i've slashed my prices to what they were in 1930"

"Thats fantastic" says the guy. He downs his pint and orders another one, again the price is 10baht. On ordering his third pint he remarks to the landlord,

"with prices this cheap, i have to ask why those 3 guys at the end of the bar arent drinking?" The landlord says:

"Oh they are English teachers and they are waiting for happ hour!"

You forgot the "y" in happy...

[ThaiRich]

This topic seems to be dying. Come on people get posting or I will write something else that will get all of your boxers in a twist.

Oh yeah, and thanks for a very entertaining 3 days with this topic. This has been much more fun than Facebook. I'm starting to get over my flu and will probably go back to work tomorrow.

You probably won't hear from me again until I am sick and decide to post something else that will get everyone worked up.

Edited November 8, 2012 by ThaiRich

[whistleblower]

A guy walks into a foreign owned bar and orders a pint. "that will be 10 baht says the landlord"

"10 baht?" replies the guy "why so cheap?"

The landlord replies "I have just won a chunk of cash on the lottery and to reward my customers i've slashed my prices to what they were in 1930"

"Thats fantastic" says the guy. He downs his pint and orders another one, again the price is 10baht. On ordering his third pint he remarks to the landlord,

"with prices this cheap, i have to ask why those 3 guys at the end of the bar arent drinking?" The landlord says:

"Oh they are English teachers and they are waiting for happ hour!"

You forgot the "y" in happy...

Thank you teacher

[BigJohnnyBKK]

True but that also depends if you work for a company or a school. Based on my experience with the private sector there the managers or the owners are the reason the teachers don't stay or last long.

There are just too many scams going on in the private sector. I went to one famous institute which I shall not name here but within 3 months the owner had lost more than twenty of the teachers he had hired. Everything from failing to reimburse teachers when he demanded extra meetings (with taxi as the only viable transportation), not issuing contracts and also responsible for contract breach with those he had signed with. He was even confronted with manipulating the contracts with the schools.

While teaching in a governmental school you know all the facts at hand before entering it, which is not the case when it comes to the institutes or tutors thus making it harder for the teachers to actually do their jobs. I feel sorry for the kids since they are the ones suffering from the grown-ups inadequacies.

Actually my experience is the opposite, but then I've never worked for a commercial outfit that had an individual owner, only international organizations.

I find expectations of Thai managers to be completely intolerable, the Thais are treated like shit and they can't do anything different for the farang or it wouldn't be fair.

At least with farang management there's usually some logic behind things even if it's now what I'd prefer I can figure out what's going on.

With the Thai-run schools it often seems like no one's actually taking responsibility for anything at all, and there's no way to get a straight answer, in fact you're made out to be a troublemaker just for trying to figure things out, only way to survive is to keep your head down mouth shut and get one with your job no matter what BS comes up. Very frustrating for me anyway.

[maxme]

True but that also depends if you work for a company or a school. Based on my experience with the private sector there the managers or the owners are the reason the teachers don't stay or last long.

There are just too many scams going on in the private sector. I went to one famous institute which I shall not name here but within 3 months the owner had lost more than twenty of the teachers he had hired. Everything from failing to reimburse teachers when he demanded extra meetings (with taxi as the only viable transportation), not issuing contracts and also responsible for contract breach with those he had signed with. He was even confronted with manipulating the contracts with the schools.

While teaching in a governmental school you know all the facts at hand before entering it, which is not the case when it comes to the institutes or tutors thus making it harder for the teachers to actually do their jobs. I feel sorry for the kids since they are the ones suffering from the grown-ups inadequacies.

Actually my experience is the opposite, but then I've never worked for a commercial outfit that had an individual owner, only international organizations.

I find expectations of Thai managers to be completely intolerable, the Thais are treated like shit and they can't do anything different for the farang or it wouldn't be fair.

At least with farang management there's usually some logic behind things even if it's now what I'd prefer I can figure out what's going on.

With the Thai-run schools it often seems like no one's actually taking responsibility for anything at all, and there's no way to get a straight answer, in fact you're made out to be a troublemaker just for trying to figure things out, only way to survive is to keep your head down mouth shut and get one with your job no matter what BS comes up. Very frustrating for me anyway.

I have done both and concur with your assessment. So before people jump the proverbial gun, try to work a 6 days week period in a governmental school and then come back with your complaints about whose fault it is that the Thais don't have adequate English skills.

Edited November 8, 2012 by maxme

[BigJohnnyBKK]

I have done both and concur with your assessment. So before people jump the proverbial gun, try to work a 6 days week period in a governmental school and then come back with your complaints about whose fault it is that the Thais don't have adequate English skills.

Not to mention the fact that a couple of 50-minute lessons per week with 40+ kids in the room wouldn't make a difference if both the school and the teacher were brilliant squared, just not enough, someone posted here they have 18 separate groups of kids that large, crikey!

[chiangmaikelly]

As for the "Never use Thai" debate, I'd just say look at the most successful teacher of the lot; Andrew Biggs, and ask if his technique has been a success.

I'd wager you'd find your average Thai would learn more from one of his shows than a month with some prat rattling out his TEFL games aimlessly.

Those "experienced teachers" here saying that you don't need to use the learner's native language in order to teach them successfully are a huge indicator of why the level of English in Thailand is so abysmal.

And still you wonder why people don't take you seriously....?

I'm no longer going to try to argue your main point above.

However from a purely practical point of view, there are millions of Thais that need to learn English as quickly as possible. Since Thailand obviously can't afford to hire professional teachers, how on earth are they going to give enough incentive for NES people willing to work for a pittance to actually learn Thai as well?

If what you think is true, they may as well completely give up now. . .

Teachers from the Philippines speak English well enough to meet the educational needs of 90% of the Thai people. Teachers from the Philippines are available for a price that the Thai government can afford. The Thai government only needs to realize it is time to stop wasting money on white skin.

A lot of the Thai students that have teachers from Philippines admit they have difficulty in understanding them. I dunno where you get your info from but certainly not from the big city or the south.

What is the, "big city or the south." I get my information from the Industrial East coast of Thailand where many Engineers, inspectors and teachers are from the Philippines. Out of 100 I know from the Philippines about 85 are as fluent as any English teachers I know with white skins. First you have to ask yourself, "what did Kelly mean by, "meet the needs of 90% of the Thai people." Then you should probably tell us how many Thai students you know and are able to communicate with about teacher effectiveness.

Edited November 8, 2012 by chiangmaikelly

[sms747]

Yes, that is the problem, and IMNSHO only a teacher with full command of both a language the student understand, and the language the student want to learn,

have the potential of being a good teacher

Nonsense. When teaching a language you only use the language being taught.

If only in the language being taught how on earth can a novice student ask a question? they can't can they which is quite a problem. The best English teaching in Bkk is at AUA, just judging by the results

Edited November 8, 2012 by sms747

[chiangmaikelly]

Yes, that is the problem, and IMNSHO only a teacher with full command of both a language the student understand, and the language the student want to learn,

have the potential of being a good teacher

Nonsense. When teaching a language you only use the language being taught.

If only in the language being taught how on earth can a novice student ask a question? they can't can they which is quite a problem. The best English teaching in Bkk is at AUA, just judging by the results

I seem to remember AUA teaching different methods in BKK and Chiang Mai. Can anyone confirm? And AUA is certainly not the best English school in Chiang Mai. It is however one of the least expensive.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

I seem to remember AUA teaching different methods in BKK and Chiang Mai. Can anyone confirm? And AUA is certainly not the best English school in Chiang Mai. It is however one of the least expensive.

Don't know if this still holds but the Bangkok outfit called their methodology something like the natural method.

Hundreds of hours of listening to progressively more complex conversation between multiple native Thai speakers before you were ever allowed to open your mouth.

Never a word of any other language allowed in the facility.

Long ramp-up in the early stages but then much higher fluency achieved once you got over the hump.

No idea what they do in CM, but if there's any English allowed it's definitely not the same.

The BKK classes had more Japanese/Korean/Swedish/Italian etc speakers than NES, so English wouldn't have worked anyway.

No one was "explaining" (what I call "teaching about") the language, just teaching the language itself.

And it is true that many students found it very frustrating and dropped out.

Edited November 8, 2012 by BigJohnnyBKK

[BigJohnnyBKK]

If only in the language being taught how on earth can a novice student ask a question? they can't can they which is quite a problem. The best English teaching in Bkk is at AUA, just judging by the results

And when I taught there we were certainly not encouraged to allow any Thai in the classroom.

The best teachers, schools and methodologies for language learning all around the world only use the target language within the program. Bilingual teachers are very rare, but it's true they do make the students feel more comfortable.

[chiangmaikelly]

I seem to remember AUA teaching different methods in BKK and Chiang Mai. Can anyone confirm? And AUA is certainly not the best English school in Chiang Mai. It is however one of the least expensive.

Don't know if this still holds but the Bangkok outfit called their methodology something like the natural method.

Hundreds of hours of listening to progressively more complex conversation between multiple native Thai speakers before you were ever allowed to open your mouth.

Never a word of any other language allowed in the facility.

Long ramp-up in the early stages but then much higher fluency achieved once you got over the hump.

No idea what they do in CM, but if there's any English allowed it's definitely not the same.

The BKK classes had more Japanese/Korean/Swedish/Italian etc speakers than NES, so English wouldn't have worked anyway.

No one was "explaining" (what I call "teaching about") the language, just teaching the language itself.

And it is true that many students found it very frustrating and dropped out.

Not the same at all. CM AUA had an older lady who also taught at the Univ of Minnesota. We talked every day before class in English and during class in English and went of field trips where English was spoken.

Edited November 8, 2012 by chiangmaikelly

[bangkokburning]

I thought the grammar police weren't allowed in this forum.

In general, I agree, but English teachers who can't write good English are fair game, because they devalue the honoured profession of teaching.

Can't write good English?

[chiangmaikelly]

I thought the grammar police weren't allowed in this forum.

In general, I agree, but English teachers who can't write good English are fair game, because they devalue the honoured profession of teaching.

Can't write good English?

If they were teaching English writing it might make a difference.

[bangkokburning]

Someday I will.start a thread on.how annoying the Philippine accent is. I am instantly.turned off by its sing-song and slang-y nature. The fact that I find them some of the most dim witted people of the planet doesn't help.

I've noticed that many Indonesians, Malay and subordinate Singaporeans now speak.with this atrocious accent.

Thailand would well be advised not to develop this accent.

Further, like spoken Indian english it is casual and coloquial at it's core, parochial even. Ghetto.

One very cool thing about English snd why it id so popular is because it is dynamic, fluid and open. That is fine for fun and conversation - not what is desirable to learn and esp pay for.

Edited November 8, 2012 by bangkokburning

[Chittychangchang]

Someday I will.start a thread on.how annoying the Philippine accent is. I am instantly.turned off by its sing-song nature. The fact that I find them some of the most dim witted people of the planet doesn't help.

I've noticed that many Indonesians, Malay and subordinate Singaporeans now speak.with this atrocious accent.

Thailand would well be advised not to develop this accent.

Isn't the accent due to the fact that the Philippine schools prefer American teachers.(No offense meant to American teachers).

Indeed, Asians learning spoken English nearly always prefer to have American teachers.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Someday I will.start a thread on.how annoying the Philippine accent is.

I'm sure we're all looking forward to that. . .

I think the ability to make themselves understood would be major step forward; they're going to be using their English to talk to Korean/Japanese/Singaporean/Indian/Chinese/Brazilian/Russian etc businessmen anyway, no one will care how annoying the resulting sounds may be to our sensitive but irrelevant NES ears.

[chonabot]

Isn't it funny how these 18+ classes "Englishteachers" can be posting atm. Are you running a tape/cd etc. and (ab)use the school's internetconnection?

I have a few breaks in the day plus I can afford an old laptop and a wireless pay as you go card - sorry if that offends your sensibilities ( nosey git )

Edited November 8, 2012 by chonabot

[bangkokburning]

Someday I will.start a thread on.how annoying the Philippine accent is. I am instantly.turned off by its sing-song nature. The fact that I find them some of the most dim witted people of the planet doesn't help.

I've noticed that many Indonesians, Malay and subordinate Singaporeans now speak.with this atrocious accent.

Thailand would well be advised not to develop this accent.

Isn't the accent due to the fact that the Philippine schools prefer American teachers.(No offense meant to American teachers).

Indeed, Asians learning spoken English nearly always prefer to have American teachers.

The accent is indigenous, nothing like anything in USA.

Preference for standard American accent I believe comes from:

So many people already speaking as such (Canada included). Europeans also eant a clean British accent or American/Ca.

Aus and ghettoized British, Scotyish and N Irelsnd accents are just as unnerving and perhaps less comprehenisble than even a working class Boston or Jersey accent (or perhaps some cracker southern accent as well)

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Aus and ghettoized British, Scotyish and N Irelsnd accents are just as unnerving and perhaps less comprehenisble than even a working class Boston or Jersey accent (or perhaps some cracker southern accent as well)

I had a good Welsh friend, took me months to get my "ear tuned in" to be able to have a normal flow of conversation with him.

Another guy from the Louisiana bayous was almost as bad entertaining.

I honestly think students of teachers like this just smile and nod to be polite and then just do all their work from the text materials 8-)

They're flabbergasted when they find out their "fellow" NES teachers have nearly as much difficulty deciphering the sounds coming out of their mouths.

But it's true that it's good for them to get a variety, like eating food that's a bit off builds up your immune system 8-)

[Trembly]

As for the "Never use Thai" debate, I'd just say look at the most successful teacher of the lot; Andrew Biggs, and ask if his technique has been a success.

I'd wager you'd find your average Thai would learn more from one of his shows than a month with some prat rattling out his TEFL games aimlessly.

Those "experienced teachers" here saying that you don't need to use the learner's native language in order to teach them successfully are a huge indicator of why the level of English in Thailand is so abysmal.

And still you wonder why people don't take you seriously....?

I'm no longer going to try to argue your main point above.

However from a purely practical point of view, there are millions of Thais that need to learn English as quickly as possible. Since Thailand obviously can't afford to hire professional teachers, how on earth are they going to give enough incentive for NES people willing to work for a pittance to actually learn Thai as well?

If what you think is true, they may as well completely give up now. . .

Teachers from the Philippines speak English well enough to meet the educational needs of 90% of the Thai people. Teachers from the Philippines are available for a price that the Thai government can afford. The Thai government only needs to realize it is time to stop wasting money on white skin.

They could have one Filipino for every 20 students, hell, make it 10 and the difference would be incremental at best if nothing is done about the way education is managed throughout the entire edifice that is Thai state education. I have never encountered such an evisceration of educational fundamentals at any level for arbitrary political gain as I have in the Thai education system.

Edited November 8, 2012 by Trembly