Moral Dilemma? Or Not?

[kayo]

What would you do?

My brother went to a branch of Kasikorn Bank in Bangkok. He gave them £1500 in Travellers Cheques.

The bank gave him 300,000 or so Baht. Now the bank is ringing him every half an hour saying they want the money back and when is he going to the bank? First they said they were sending the police, then they said the bank teller had two kids, now they have got the sweet lady on the phone. They say it is his fault not theirs!! He is inclined to give the money back. As he says, it is not his money. He asked the bank to make a small financial gesture in recognition of their mistake. No. He also said he wanted to be assured that the bank teller would no be sacked/blamed a the transaction should have been double checked. And he has asked for a letter confirming that he is ot at fault(During the transaction he said there was pandemonium in the bank-90 customers-staff running hither and thither and he was on the phone and then thought maybe he did give them £4500-which he had in his wallet!) He sad he would go to the bank in the morning. The bankkept ringing until 21.00 saying they were waiting! On the phone again at 08.30! Speakingf to his wfe trying to get her to bring them the money!

His friends say don't give them the money. What would you do?!

Use some of the money to buy a fake passport, then move to Cambodia....

Or...

Give it back... Dumbass question. What dilemma?

[Artisan]

I'm surprised that the OP posted his question.

You can't justify theft no matter how hard you try.

Trying to make a financial gain over somebody's innocent mistake, is theft. Fraud would cover the offence.

Return the money to its rightful owner. Get a receipt from the bank. Nothing else required.

...........yes there is.........you should apologise to the bank for your stubborness and pig headedness.

Absolutely...return the money back to the bank. If you are thinking about hanging on to the money, or insisting that the bank gives you a written apology, then this topic should be called an "immoral dilemma".

[Tippaporn]

I'm surprised that the OP posted his question.

You can't justify theft no matter how hard you try.

Trying to make a financial gain over somebody's innocent mistake, is theft. Fraud would cover the offence.

Return the money to its rightful owner. Get a receipt from the bank. Nothing else required.

...........yes there is.........you should apologise to the bank for your stubborness and pig headedness.

Totally agree, MM.

The arguments by the OP are futile:

Actually, I agree with Kayo and Artisan, too.

Absolutely...return the money back to the bank. If you are thinking about hanging on to the money, or insisting that the bank gives you a written apology, then this topic should be called an "immoral dilemma".

Well put, Artisan.

Edited February 10, 2006 by Tippaporn

[kayo]

finally!!! Someone agrees with me..

[ThaiPauly]

Get your Bro' to return it TODAY.

One thing that MOST of us Farangs have is at least a reputation for being a pretty HONEST bunch.

Don't tarnish our collective image.

Go to the Toursit Police and get one of them to go with you (better still a Police Volunteer Helper if they have them).

Can't possibly see how your Brother could get into trouble by returning it.

But NOT returning it or asking for a reward is downright plain STUPID

[chownah]

chownah - why did the lad want the menu back so badly? Obviously could have printed another quite easily/laminated it.

Don't know for sure....but it was really obvious that he was sweating bullets...it might be that my "souvenier" was not portraying an image of Thailand that the authorities would like....or maybe the 200 baht he got for it was less than the cost for a new one since it was a full size typing sheet (A4?) and laminated in plastic. Maybe it could be construed as being pornographic and thus illegal to possess....don't know.

Edited February 10, 2006 by chownah

[slackula]

If you feel the bank is treating you badly why not tell them you will to return all of it and get your travellers cheques back so you can go and do business with a more professional outfit?

[chanchao]

That should teach you not to give your phone number to the bank.

Chances are it never went up to the manager level, the person who made the mistake is looking to correct it without making too many waves. he/she most certainly won't like it if you ask for written apologies or bring police, etc. (WHY by the way? Next you'll be asking tourist police to be present while you tie your shoelaces ).

BTW I don't like the Thai business practise of laying any mistake on the staff and using this as an extortion tool. This bank thingy is a no brainer, but with the free microwave deal when buying a washing machine then it's for sure NOT the sales person's mistake as you will have a bill / delivery note with the item on it. So other people / software could have cought the mistake. And most likely it's a factory promotion anyway, not a shop promotion, so I'd tell them to just back-date the bill then. That free microwave was probably part of your decision to get that particular washing machine in the first place, so if I would be giving it back, I would also give the washing machine back and require a complete refund. At that point, chances are they'll find a way to let you keep the microwave.

Cheers,

Chanchao

[sierra01]

That should teach you not to give your phone number to the bank.

Chances are it never went up to the manager level, the person who made the mistake is looking to correct it without making too many waves. he/she most certainly won't like it if you ask for written apologies or bring police, etc. (WHY by the way? Next you'll be asking tourist police to be present while you tie your shoelaces ).

BTW I don't like the Thai business practise of laying any mistake on the staff and using this as an extortion tool. This bank thingy is a no brainer, but with the free microwave deal when buying a washing machine then it's for sure NOT the sales person's mistake as you will have a bill / delivery note with the item on it. So other people / software could have cought the mistake. And most likely it's a factory promotion anyway, not a shop promotion, so I'd tell them to just back-date the bill then. That free microwave was probably part of your decision to get that particular washing machine in the first place, so if I would be giving it back, I would also give the washing machine back and require a complete refund. At that point, chances are they'll find a way to let you keep the microwave.

Cheers,

Chanchao

I've just checked the bill, no microwave on it! I wasn't too bothered anyway, I already had a Microwave, a better one too, and had given the freebie to my friend, it was a bit embarrassing to have to ask for it back though! I bought most of my household electrical stuff there and they always fell over themselves, before and after, to sort out any problems I had.

[steveromagnino]

Based on the details now emerging; that the money is with the bank, and he is a customer, if this were in New Zealand, you would be liable to return it and if you did not, you could be charged with theft.

A bank's rules and regulalations are not the same as a normal store transaction. From the Consumer Institute of USA, they note that 'Where it is found that a bank has made a clerical error, you should report the error immediately to a branch manager.'

In fact, under American law, 'Under the EFTA, if there is a mistake or unauthorized withdrawal from your bank account through the use of a debit card, you must notify your financial institution of the problem or error within 60 days after the statement containing the problem or error was sent.'

Note that this puts the responsibility on the consumer not matter what the type of error is with a debit card.

And to prove that the TIT is just a FOS way of complaining, check out how this American Bank handled things, 'When Atlanta based Compass Bank (Compass Bancshares) credited Christine Baker’s checking account with $700 instead of the $200 cash deposit, she called the branch to let them know that they made a $500 mistake. Not only did Compass Bank debit Ms. Baker’s account with the $500, but they also charged a $6 “research fee.”'

In light of being unable to locate a similar case in Thailand (using a precedent) and being too lazy to actually check banking regulation, I can instead offer a New Zealand precedent, which would be probably (but not necessarily) the case here, since NZ law is quite in favour of the consumer... apparently the test is that the party would have to show a reasonable belief that the money was indeed theirs, that the money on something that they would otherwise not have spent it on, and that it would be unfair to have them repay the money.

In the case in question, the bank agreed to write off 20% of the amount of the mistake as payment, and the party still had to pay back the other 80%. So... if you think you are going to get a free ride, then I think you are mistaken.

I cannot see that the brother has a leg to stand on for ANY of these points.

Morally, it is fairly obvious, so I think better to look at the legal situation. If it gets personal, I suspect your brother's health potentially could end up in danger if he gets someone fired over this.

Give it back :-)

[LoveDaBlues]

Quote: "Morally, it is fairly obvious, so I think better to look at the legal situation. If it gets personal, I suspect your brother's health potentially could end up in danger if he gets someone fired over this"

I can only imagine someone's mindset....'###### farangs, take our women,now cost my mom/sister her job, payback time.....where are they?

[sierra01]

And to prove that the TIT is just a FOS way of complaining, check out how this American Bank handled things, 'When Atlanta based Compass Bank (Compass Bancshares) credited Christine Baker’s checking account with $700 instead of the $200 cash deposit, she called the branch to let them know that they made a $500 mistake. Not only did Compass Bank debit Ms. Baker’s account with the $500, but they also charged a $6 “research fee.”'

Priceless Did she let it go or what?

[steveromagnino]

Quote: "Morally, it is fairly obvious, so I think better to look at the legal situation. If it gets personal, I suspect your brother's health potentially could end up in danger if he gets someone fired over this"

I can only imagine someone's mindset....'###### farangs, take our women,now cost my mom/sister her job, payback time.....where are they?

Well, I don't think it would be race issue, more like, f&*ker I lost my job because this f&*ker wouldn't return the money, so now I am going to get some of my boyeees and get it back myself from him, and I can easily use my pal who works at XYZ to find out where he lives.

Unlikely, but possible. So yep, something along those lines.....

As an aside, as a part Thai, I cannot think of too many Thai male or female friends of mine that would ever think of farang's taking their women; they are constantly asking why, with all the money farangs have, why they choose the women they do (and they are usually asking about specific people we both know rather than generally).... perhaps in the provinces there might be more jealousy, but I haven't seen it myself outside tourist areas, and even then it is extremely minor IMHO.

[Tippaporn]

The way this same scenario would work in the U.S., seeing as how the money was deposited into an account with the same bank that made the mistake, the bank would simply withdraw it. If you had already spent enough of it so that the full error amount was no longer available they would withdraw the last penny in the account and debit you the difference. In which case an overdraft fee would apply. You are faulted and the bank will not suffer for it.

Regardless, all of these other issues serve only to detract attention from the only issue that is important. A mistake has been made, innocent enough (despite all of the "incompetency" rhetoric), it's not your money, so return it. Why is that not so clear cut for some people?

[srisatch]

What a load of prissy self righteous b******s people write.

Of course he gave the money back. That was not the point. The question was: What would YOU do? And it was posted as Moral Dilemma "OR NOT" ie did not think it was.....

Innocent mistake?? Come off it...what happened was that the guy on the exchange counter could not distinguish £ from 1...just the kind of skills you want to meet at the bank.

And you were right...the guy who made the error was the one ringing up and making threats in hopes his mistake could be covered up.

All of you who have been so moral in saying there is no dilemma-we agree-what about dealing with incompetence and lies at the bank? Guess they have a dilemma too!

[steveromagnino]

What a load of prissy self righteous b******s people write.

Of course he gave the money back. That was not the point. The question was: What would YOU do? And it was posted as Moral Dilemma "OR NOT" ie did not think it was.....

Innocent mistake?? Come off it...what happened was that the guy on the exchange counter could not distinguish £ from 1...just the kind of skills you want to meet at the bank.

And you were right...the guy who made the error was the one ringing up and making threats in hopes his mistake could be covered up.

All of you who have been so moral in saying there is no dilemma-we agree-what about dealing with incompetence and lies at the bank? Guess they have a dilemma too!

I worked to set up a new bank. All banks for the most part are f&*king useless, and it is one of the coolest businesses where you can treat your customers really badly and they still don't even change suppliers (cause we all sucked!). This weren't in Thailand either. If you saw the errors, ongoing and neverending, you would be frigging shocked how useless we were. Go online, and do a search on the phrase 'bank error' or similar and you'll be inundated with tales of woe from all around the world.

In my previous country where I was a wan, er, banker, aAfter studies showing how all the banks were ripping consumers off with fees, etc the best bit was when the government set up a govt bank to compete against the private banks. First thing the banks did? Not lower fees. No. They kicked out all the customers that rang and complained too much; weren't making them money, that sort of thing. Sent them to the government bank. It was, for the private banks, like Xmas and Valentines rolled into one.

So we agree that there are lots of incompetents in banking. We agree that they are <deleted> useless.

What we don't agree on is that there is any dilemma. You think there is some sort of apology due, and then ask:

'His friends say don't give them the money. What would you do?!'

I've given you relatively sound advice from a legal standpoint, that he could get either rich for nothing, liable for the money since it seems that responsibility for mistakes in banks rests with the customer and not the bank or at worst he could get a beating.

You ask a question, then wonder why people say, give back the money?>

Don't ask it if you don't want the answer!

[opothai]

you must ask yourself if you had made the mistake would the bank hand you the money back,

so why should you.

i was handed £1000 in sealed and stamped batches, one of them was short by £50, i think you can guess the outcome of my complaint.

[Noel]

What a load of prissy self righteous b******s people write.

You ask a question, then wonder why people say, give back the money?>

Don't ask it if you don't want the answer!

Nicely summed up...

[IMA_FARANG]

What would you do?

My brother went to a branch of Kasikorn Bank in Bangkok. He gave them £1500 in Travellers Cheques.

The bank gave him 300,000 or so Baht. Now the bank is ringing him every half an hour saying they want the money back and when is he going to the bank? First they said they were sending the police, then they said the bank teller had two kids, now they have got the sweet lady on the phone. They say it is his fault not theirs!! He is inclined to give the money back. As he says, it is not his money. He asked the bank to make a small financial gesture in recognition of their mistake. No. He also said he wanted to be assured that the bank teller would no be sacked/blamed a the transaction should have been double checked. And he has asked for a letter confirming that he is ot at fault(During the transaction he said there was pandemonium in the bank-90 customers-staff running hither and thither and he was on the phone and then thought maybe he did give them £4500-which he had in his wallet!) He sad he would go to the bank in the morning. The bankkept ringing until 21.00 saying they were waiting! On the phone again at 08.30! Speakingf to his wfe trying to get her to bring them the money!

His friends say don't give them the money. What would you do?!

Well I don't know Thai law so I can't answer specifically in this case. However the point has been tested in court in the U.S. Under the law (in U.S.) if you obtain any money by fraudulant means from a bank account, irregardles of whose "fault" the error is, you are eligible to return the fraudulant amount. This applys if you recieve an excess when you change currencies as well if they overcredit your account, and you withdraw the money which you knew was credited to you by mistake. Legally the money the bank gives you, even by their error, is not for you to spend. If you withdraw that money, it is regarded the same as an overdrawn check. You have no right to any amount beyond what you might reasonably know is valid. This case came from a person who deposited $100.00 and was credited with $10,000 (decimal point not entered). The court held that as the customer should have reasonably have known the amount he deposited ($100.00) was less than the amount mistakenly credited ($10,000.00) any attempt to use the extra amount was a fraudulant deciept on the customers part.

So it goes to say: return the extra money or face legal problems.

After all, the laws were written by the capatalists who run the system. Why do expect they would side with you? They will take care of their own first.

[steveromagnino]

So it goes to say: return the extra money or face legal problems.

After all, the laws were written by the capatalists who run the system. Why do expect they would side with you? They will take care of their own first.

True. I have enough precedents, but am only directly familiar with NZ banking law; there is enough detail on the net though for me to believe that worldwide the idiots that call themselves bankers (of which I was one, and as of next month will sort of be again) don't need to take responsibility for their own incompetence. Sad but true...

OpoThai

Sadly, you can ask that question, but the reality is that if you take it, the bank WILL come after you and they have the law on their side in the countries discussed (and probably Thailand). Generally, they do not know the phrase 'customer service' and they also do not know the word 'wrong' unless it is accompanied by 'you are ....'

The funny thing is in the job interview when I was hired to set the operation up, they were so worried I didn't have banking experience; they were so convinced what they did was rocket science. After one morning, I was like, what is this it??! You get money in and you give it to those other people at a higher rate?! what is hard about that>

I must have missed something really important in my time working for a bank

[opothai]

steve

i know where you are coming from, and yes the money would have to be returned

banks used to be viewed as trustworthy institutions but these days the banks are viewed as a corporate money giant with minimal personal interaction, and seriously when you want to speak to someone, well with my bank i speak to somebody in india, whom i can not understand half the time.

in short i'm just not impressed with banks at all

[sadman]

But, in the UK, if someone handed over money like that then there is not a whole heap that can be done after they leave the shop... (mistakes cannot be rectified afterwards)

'Fraid not. Speaking with my pompous lawyer's head on, English law provides that the appropriation of property from another may become dishonest if it is done by mistake which is subsequently discovered.

Effectively, although it was initially a mistake, when the guy discovered the mistake, he became obliged to return the money.

Morally, I think we probably all know right from wrong.

[Cpt_M0ney_Sh0t]

I'd keep it. As for the teller who knows for sure if she would really get fired, the bank already proved themselves liers when they said they would call the police. I would have asked to be able to speak to the teller ask her how much she made monthly, probably 7 or 8000 baht, and gave her my number and tell her if she got fired I would hook her up with a few months salary. Then it's a Win/Win... I get extra dough from a scumbag abusive bank, and the girl gets a few months off paid while she looks for a new job.

[bkkmadness]

And they mightpick you up at the next border you cross coz your passport number would have been taken when you changed the travellers cheques. Criminal charges could be laid on, you'd have to pay the money back and may end up on the black list.

Saying that, he did have the correct receipt stating that he changed 4500 so legally you may be able to get away with it, on a your word against theirs situation, but a risky gamble.

[Tippaporn]

What a load of prissy self righteous b******s people write.

Of course he gave the money back. That was not the point. The question was: What would YOU do? And it was posted as Moral Dilemma "OR NOT" ie did not think it was.....

Innocent mistake?? Come off it...what happened was that the guy on the exchange counter could not distinguish £ from 1...just the kind of skills you want to meet at the bank.

And you were right...the guy who made the error was the one ringing up and making threats in hopes his mistake could be covered up.

All of you who have been so moral in saying there is no dilemma-we agree-what about dealing with incompetence and lies at the bank? Guess they have a dilemma too!

"Of course he gave the money back," you say but you state in the OP, "He is inclined to give the money back." "He will almost certainly give the money back," was quoted from your second post. Since it was obvious that your brother had not concluded definitively then the question of what would you do seems to be one of fishing for direction from other posters. Possibly the OP was really asking the question, "Could he get away with it?" since this is, afterall, a foreign land and well, gee, how does it work here?

<snip>

2. The money was transferred to his bank account so he never had the cash in hand...Actually when he signed the deposit slip he said to the teller 'this is wrong' ad ther teller agreed and said he should have added the cash and cheque transactions togethe ie 400,000B!! Anyway if he had not sent ther money to an account they could never have found him!! So lucky bank!!

<snip>

Innoncence? Incompetence? You wouldn't rightly know, would you? Humans make mistakes - so what? People love to act incredulously when it happens to someone else, and indignant and appalled when it happens to them. Never mind that they make mistakes, too.

Unless you knew the bank teller's record you couldn't rightly charge him with incompetency. He may have been very good at his job, but made a rare mistake. He could have been fraught with errors, in which case he probably would have been fired long ago. I seriously doubt the teller wanted to make a mistake, so I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and leave it at that. Very easy to do.

If you want to use the incompetency argument then you could say your brother was incompetent in his own financial dealings. He was handed a receipt which clearly showed a £4,500 transaction. In fact, and this to me is rather telling, he even noticed the mistake and brought it up to the teller. Why did he decide to leave it at that and not clear it up immediately? The incompetency argument works both ways. And in this case I'd say a charge of incompetency would lean closer to your brother than it would the teller since your brother had the accurate awareness of what was going on. Where was his responsibility in all of this? Please don't tell me he had none and that it was strictly the bank's job to insure that everything had transpired as intended. If that's the case then he's absolving himself of any responsibilty by placing 100% trust in the bank. Som nam na.

As for the teller ringing your brother, if it was indeed the teller, can you blame him? A £3,000 error could get him in a bit of hot water. If you were in his shoes, knowing full well the unforgivable attitude business in particular has for being human, wouldn't you try to recover from your mistake? And try to use approaches that in your mind might work? Idle threats, lies, etc., that can all be expected. The teller is most likely thinking of himself, which any normal person under the circumstances would do.

Prissy and self righteous? Not at all. Accurately assessing a situation? Yes. Filled with self integrity and understanding? Yes.

You're brother ultimately made the right chocie in returning the money. Good on him. Although, I don't think he had many options.

As to other posters who would like to point out the greediness and incompetence of banks, I would agree. Playing a game of tit for tat is dangerous IMHO. Besides, I wouldn't compromise my own self integrity by stooping to levels I abhor myself.

Edited February 10, 2006 by Tippaporn

[Ulysses G.]

[meemiathai]

What a load of prissy self righteous b******s people write.

Of course he gave the money back. That was not the point. The question was: What would YOU do? And it was posted as Moral Dilemma "OR NOT" ie did not think it was.....

Innocent mistake?? Come off it...what happened was that the guy on the exchange counter could not distinguish £ from 1...just the kind of skills you want to meet at the bank.

And you were right...the guy who made the error was the one ringing up and making threats in hopes his mistake could be covered up.

All of you who have been so moral in saying there is no dilemma-we agree-what about dealing with incompetence and lies at the bank? Guess they have a dilemma too!

"Of course he gave the money back," you say but you state in the OP, "He is inclined to give the money back." "He will almost certainly give the money back," was quoted from your second post. Since it was obvious that your brother had not concluded definitively then the question of what would you do seems to be one of fishing for direction from other posters. Possibly the OP was really asking the question, "Could he get away with it?" since this is, afterall, a foreign land and well, gee, how does it work here?

<snip>

2. The money was transferred to his bank account so he never had the cash in hand...Actually when he signed the deposit slip he said to the teller 'this is wrong' ad ther teller agreed and said he should have added the cash and cheque transactions togethe ie 400,000B!! Anyway if he had not sent ther money to an account they could never have found him!! So lucky bank!!

<snip>

Innoncence? Incompetence? You wouldn't rightly know, would you? Humans make mistakes - so what? People love to act incredulously when it happens to someone else, and indignant and appalled when it happens to them. Never mind that they make mistakes, too.

Unless you knew the bank teller's record you couldn't rightly charge him with incompetency. He may have been very good at his job, but made a rare mistake. He could have been fraught with errors, in which case he probably would have been fired long ago. I seriously doubt the teller wanted to make a mistake, so I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and leave it at that. Very easy to do.

If you want to use the incompetency argument then you could say your brother was incompetent in his own financial dealings. He was handed a receipt which clearly showed a £4,500 transaction. In fact, and this to me is rather telling, he even noticed the mistake and brought it up to the teller. Why did he decide to leave it at that and not clear it up immediately? The incompetency argument works both ways. And in this case I'd say a charge of incompetency would lean closer to your brother than it would the teller since your brother had the accurate awareness of what was going on. Where was his responsibility in all of this? Please don't tell me he had none and that it was strictly the bank's job to insure that everything had transpired as intended. If that's the case then he's absolving himself of any responsibilty by placing 100% trust in the bank. Som nam na.

As for the teller ringing your brother, if it was indeed the teller, can you blame him? A £3,000 error could get him in a bit of hot water. If you were in his shoes, knowing full well the unforgivable attitude business in particular has for being human, wouldn't you try to recover from your mistake? And try to use approaches that in your mind might work? Idle threats, lies, etc., that can all be expected. The teller is most likely thinking of himself, which any normal person under the circumstances would do.

Prissy and self righteous? Not at all. Accurately assessing a situation? Yes. Filled with self integrity and understanding? Yes.

You're brother ultimately made the right chocie in returning the money. Good on him. Although, I don't think he had many options.

As to other posters who would like to point out the greediness and incompetence of banks, I would agree. Playing a game of tit for tat is dangerous IMHO. Besides, I wouldn't compromise my own self integrity by stooping to levels I abhor myself.

Well said again, Tippaporn.

And to the OP, WHAT DILEMMA? The money is not yours!!!

What I have here is a dilemma!! Should I rob a bank or a gold shop?

[meemiathai]

I see a lot of farangs here accusing of thais trying to save face. But here I see a typical example of farang trying to save face.

A farang being caught red-handed of greed and stupidity(thinking that he could get away with it) trying to save face by pointing out that it was in fact the incompetence of the thai staff that was the problem.

Good post anyway! It shows that farang scumbags do exist in Thailand and makes you wonder less why you get treated badly by thais occasionally.

[Artisan]

So, we’re “a load of prissy self-righteous bas_tards”, are we? I believe that you have manipulated the meaning and intention of your original posting. The reason for this is obscure but, as Meemiathai has said, it has a lot to do with saving your face.

[daleyboy]

I agree the op should get his brother to give the money back. But it really isnt necessary to give him such a hard time.

As the saying goes he who has no guilt may he cast the first stone(or something like that)

Come on i bet everyone of you has been given too much change at a shop and put it in your pocket, or found money on the pavement and not handed it in.

I know the amount is more considerable, but the principle is the same.

You should all stop giving the op such a hard time with signs, he asked a question and asked for a mature grown up response, not the continuing flaming that some of you seem to feel necessary.