Baby, Teachers Among Six Dead In Thai Shootings

[F430murci]

I have a little problem here. A not really small number of posters are thinking, a "violent" solution is favorable, because talking with terrorists...and so on...

So enlighten me: how does your solution look like?

Just send the Army in (yeah, right!) and start killing all muslims, who seem to be armed?

I guess, a few hundred innocent guys are accounted for as "collateral damage", yes?!

A few hundred fathers, brothers, sons...but also daughters or sisters or moms!

Well...bad luck!

Sorry! Not good enough for me!

There is a REAL problem here and we are not at "The Expandables"!

The moment you stop talking, humanity finally looses!

Problem is: they haven't even started talking!

And the glorious "War on Drugs" has shown what happens, when Thailand stops talking (and thinking) and takes up arms!

There has to be a "diplomatic" solution for this problem- violence that follows violence that follows violence is NOT the way!

So let's cut to the chase...

Do you suggest Thailand should give the three provinces away?

It's not gonna happen.

It's not a matter of "giving away" the Deep South provinces. In Aceh lasting peace was achieved by granting autonomy after more than 15,000 died in the conflict. The agreement put in place granted the province control over all areas of government except external defence, foreign relations and fiscal policy. It allows Aceh to retain 70% of its natural resources, allowed the Acehnese to field independent candidates in elections for provincial governor and district chiefs and to establish local political parties to run in future elections. In the Southern Philippines an agreement has been put in place with Muslim rebels after 15 years of talks and more than 150,000 deaths to cease the killings by both sides of the conflict. It's currently planned for the detailed negotiations for autonomy to be completed by 2016. In both cases their was a recognised group with whom the respective governments could negotiate.

The challenge for the Thai government is that the insurgency/terrorist group leaders, as far as I am aware, have not put a list of conditions in the public domain in order to commence negotiations. After escalated violence from 2004 to date, Thai government agencies are still not in synch regards responses and management of the issues, nor do they appear to have put a timetable of objectives to be achieved by both sides to commence dialogue. Their appears to be a very dark agenda by people of influence and power within government and the terrorist groups benefiting from the conflict. For the meantime, Thai intelligence agencies have forecast an increase in the level of violence in 2013; does this equate to more funding, thereby cash flow available for corruption?

Actually, things calmed down a bit in 2005, the year after Tak Bai. The violence increased and the deaths almost doubled in the year after the coup. Something like 1,200 deaths from date of coup in September 2006 to September 2007.

[F430murci]

We all hear you loud and clear and understand you. Violence begets violence. The problem is, those that need to listen to this message won't listen and don't care.

They can try your diplomatic solution until everyone is blue in the face and then tell us how it worked it for everyone next year when the situation has escalated into an unmanageable situation. You do realize it is going to get worse don't you and it will very likely get sufficiently bad that the Thai millitary is incapable of handling the situation.

They are incapable now.

You fail to understand it is Muslim Malay land and has been for centuries.

Having more military presence will only widen the conflict and eventually plunge the region in to all out war.

Malaysia won't stand idly by either, so there's another issue to think about.

The Thais won't relinquish full control over the area because of oil and gas reserves in the region, and the loss of face conceding anything to the insurgents demands.

The only way forward is negotiation with more autonomy for the region.

I don't fail to understand anything. You seem to not understand what kind of people we are dealing with. How do you integrate people back into society that blow up children and spray mothers and infants with bullets.

You want to reason with the unreasonable and pathological. Good luck with that. Let us know how it's working out in 6 months as it is readily apparent Thailand will stay the do nothing course with a little negotiation here and there. So we will definitely see how the passive approach works.

[F430murci]

The clowns advocating a violent solution seem to have over-looked some facts.

The region is predominantly (90%?) Muslim.

The region is traditionally Muslim Malay.

Thailand claims sovereignty over these Malay states, the region wasn't part of Siam until 1909 when they annexed the Malay Sultanates under a treaty with Britain (under which several more Malay states that the Siamese claimed sovereignty over were spared the same fate).

Some history and geography lessons are badly needed.

Haha, clowns. Nice and mature touch.

[simple1]

We all hear you loud and clear and understand you. Violence begets violence. The problem is, those that need to listen to this message won't listen and don't care.

They can try your diplomatic solution until everyone is blue in the face and then tell us how it worked it for everyone next year when the situation has escalated into an unmanageable situation. You do realize it is going to get worse don't you and it will very likely get sufficiently bad that the Thai millitary is incapable of handling the situation.

They are incapable now.

You fail to understand it is Muslim Malay land and has been for centuries.

Having more military presence will only widen the conflict and eventually plunge the region in to all out war.

Malaysia won't stand idly by either, so there's another issue to think about.

The Thais won't relinquish full control over the area because of oil and gas reserves in the region, and the loss of face conceding anything to the insurgents demands.

The only way forward is negotiation with more autonomy for the region.

I don't fail to understand anything. You seem to not understand what kind of people we are dealing with. How do you integrate people back into society that blow up children and spray mothers and infants with bullets.

You want to reason with the unreasonable and pathological. Good luck with that. Let us know how it's working out in 6 months as it is readily apparent Thailand will stay the do nothing course with a little negotiation here and there. So we will definitely see how the passive approach works.

Personally I believe you underestimate the intelligence being applied by the armed groups. They make perfect sense for an insurgency/terrorist view of the world and are not "unreasonable and pathological" but logical tactics. Don't misconstrue, I am not supporting the killings but trying to understand the context & motivations. cup-of-coffee posted a link that summarises some of the reasoning behind terrorist attacks at ftp://ftp.cs.utexas.edu/pub/qsim/papers/Kuipers-leef-06.pdf Rand Corporation's National Defense Research Institute, often used by the US Govt for developing policy papers, provided an analysis of the insurgency in the Deep South in 2008 that so far has proved fairly accurate.

if you are interested there is a detailed analysis, that appears to be authoritative, of the tactics by the various armed groups in the Deep South and responses by Thai military at http://politico.ie/world-politics/special-thailands-forgotten-conflict/8672-at-the-kingdoms-edge-thailands-forgotten-conflict.html

[F430murci]

We all hear you loud and clear and understand you. Violence begets violence. The problem is, those that need to listen to this message won't listen and don't care.

They can try your diplomatic solution until everyone is blue in the face and then tell us how it worked it for everyone next year when the situation has escalated into an unmanageable situation. You do realize it is going to get worse don't you and it will very likely get sufficiently bad that the Thai millitary is incapable of handling the situation.

They are incapable now.

You fail to understand it is Muslim Malay land and has been for centuries.

Having more military presence will only widen the conflict and eventually plunge the region in to all out war.

Malaysia won't stand idly by either, so there's another issue to think about.

The Thais won't relinquish full control over the area because of oil and gas reserves in the region, and the loss of face conceding anything to the insurgents demands.

The only way forward is negotiation with more autonomy for the region.

I don't fail to understand anything. You seem to not understand what kind of people we are dealing with. How do you integrate people back into society that blow up children and spray mothers and infants with bullets.

You want to reason with the unreasonable and pathological. Good luck with that. Let us know how it's working out in 6 months as it is readily apparent Thailand will stay the do nothing course with a little negotiation here and there. So we will definitely see how the passive approach works.

Personally I believe you underestimate the intelligence being applied by the armed groups. They make perfect sense for an insurgency/terrorist view of the world and are not "unreasonable and pathological" but logical tactics. Don't misconstrue, I am not supporting the killings but trying to understand the context & motivations. cup-of-coffee posted a link that summarises some of the reasoning behind terrorist attacks at ftp://ftp.cs.utexas.edu/pub/qsim/papers/Kuipers-leef-06.pdf Rand Corporation's National Defense Research Institute, often used by the US Govt for developing policy papers, provided an analysis of the insurgency in the Deep South in 2008 that so far has proved fairly accurate.

if you are interested there is a detailed analysis, that appears to be authoritative, of the tactics by the various armed groups in the Deep South and responses by Thai military at http://politico.ie/world-politics/special-thailands-forgotten-conflict/8672-at-the-kingdoms-edge-thailands-forgotten-conflict.html

Of course they are calculated and intelligent. That does not mean they cannot be pathological and homicidal.

[wildorchid]

The Aussies have got it right, If you don't like it here you a re free to leave, if you were borne here then you must obey the laws of the land,

freedom of religion is a must, If i was an athiest I would not send my kids too a catholic school, If there were only catholic schools in my area i would send my kids to live in an area where they could be educated in the way I as a perant see's fit, I would not go around shootng men women chilren and babies, I do not believe any relogion say's it is ok to murder kids and babies in the name of a god...

where are the mullers??? WHY are they not disgusted and denouncing this as the most sinful act??? BUY if they suport this then would that not constitute treason? not religious exspression???

How about fingerprints or dna on the shell casings???

is this thailand or malysia? what if christians started bombing and shooting thier elders and children? because i know that there are christians in the north of thailand aswell as the south,,, there would be the same puplic outcry.

murderous PIGS as PIGS are the lowlyest and most unclean animal to muslims.

C'mon Thailand don't bend over like the Phillipines did, Fight back!!!

[Fozfromoz]

The clowns advocating a violent solution seem to have over-looked some facts.

The region is predominantly (90%?) Muslim.

The region is traditionally Muslim Malay.

Thailand claims sovereignty over these Malay states, the region wasn't part of Siam until 1909 when they annexed the Malay Sultanates under a treaty with Britain (under which several more Malay states that the Siamese claimed sovereignty over were spared the same fate).

Some history and geography lessons are badly needed.

Thanks for rebuke. What's your solution?

[davidstipek]

Time to send in the army and just blow them all away, this is bullshit, killing innocent people in the name of your god, what a load of crap.

How about starting to punish some Thai generals for the Takbae incident?How about starting to accept the religion,culture and history of those"terrorists"The Thai education system teaches only about history of Thailand,Bangkok,the Thais just ignore everything.The local language in the south is yawee[a malay dialect]they are forcing the kids to speak thai and learn about thai culture only..They force muslims to say buddhist prayers and wear thai style clothes.These are the reasons why school get burned down or teachers get killed.They force them to change their names in thai sounding names.

Army or poilice come at night into muslim houses and take the sons away.Army and police torture them and kill them.Neevr anybody of army or police got punished for their doing.They building buddhist temples in predominantly muslim areas.They let muslims bow in front of buddha statues or pictures of the king,which is an offence to their religion,the army searches muslim houses with dogs,just to insult the muslim religion.

You will not build peace as long politicians,police and army go free for their state crimes.

I'm non religious,but thought some facts should be said

There are plenty of Farang who now call Thailand Home... Who are Sickened by this. We wold gladly step in and help search for and eliminate the problems. Protecting both Muslim and Buddhist Cultures and Families. Many of us are here today because Thailand did same for us 45+ years ago. Its Time to protect Both sanctions here as They Both (Cultures) were intrumental in our Survival and returning to settle here now.

We can live together, The first step is to clean up the Trash... It happens to be on Both Sides. To find out who is motavating the movement we need to take a look at who is pushing... We might be supprised to find that maybe not all issues are Caused by the South... Politically Motivated... could be to get Land cheap and cleanse the area...???? Take a look at the whole Picture... Don't be suprised with the View!

Muslim Leaders, Thai Leaders in concerned areas... It is like the Movie Field of Dreams... "If you Build It... They will Come..." If you ask... "We will Come... And repay our Debt!"

[davidstipek]

The clowns advocating a violent solution seem to have over-looked some facts.

The region is predominantly (90%?) Muslim.

The region is traditionally Muslim Malay.

Thailand claims sovereignty over these Malay states, the region wasn't part of Siam until 1909 when they annexed the Malay Sultanates under a treaty with Britain (under which several more Malay states that the Siamese claimed sovereignty over were spared the same fate).

Some history and geography lessons are badly needed.

Thanks for rebuke. What's your solution?

Thai need to understand that:

Thailand is not Black, Brown or White... It's not Buddhist, Muslim or Catholic. It is a mixture of all... Working together, Playing Sports together... "I remember years ago two boys playing Baseball on the dirt street in my Hometown. They formed a Team and Later my father got them together as he formed a Little league Team. Every Night after school they played together as as the Team grew so did the Rainbow Effect on the Team Members. As Kids it had no effect that one was Catholic on the other Black or the 2nd Baseman was Muslim and the catcher was Chinese, Pitcher was Thai (Buddhist)....." They had a Team who trusted each and every player on it to do his best when needed. . . .

BUT...

When their Parents were in the Bleachers They played differently.... They Played (Acted) as they thought Mom and Dad wanted them to... Dad saw this and took each and everyone of then to our farm (I grew up on Dairy Farm) and showed them that all 100 cows were not the same... looks, colors, atitudes of each were different as night and day. Same as the 50 or so Barn Cats we always had around plus or minus a few.

These Boys grew, so did broaden their view on Life... to see the total picture. They had to work to get each other to gain the others trust again and they became solid... Didn't matter if they won or lost... I'm not going to say they ended up Champions and a Big Trophy! was awarded.... But today these boys are in their 50's and still solid Friends. They try to still play Baseball... My Dad is still Alive will be Ninety in February this Spring.... The field were they practiced and the cows are gone... What there after Dad sold off the 100+ acre Farm Parcle by Parcle... is... Is a Park... a childrens "4 Acre" Park! and a real Ballfield and real Bleachers and yes Dad can watch from the upstairs windows of the Home I grew up in. Or walk down and sit in the Bleachers and enjoy his "Other Boys" (He had 5 sons and 2 daughters) play. Their not as fast and as acurate as they used to be... but they respect each other and the Cuture/Family they originated from. Dad was not a General, or a Captain or a Major, he was not from any Political Office.. but what he did do, he did well! Every evening Dad had his United Nations Family, learn about and work together... This overflowed to also include each other helping the other at school..

This Team you see is like Thailand, kids need each other and to understand everyone is not the same as they are. Foods are different, families are different... But they are the same in the end! They are Thai! Whatever their background is... doesn't matter! Like America it is Land of Immigrants... but they are all Americans as here we are all Thai! Same end result We have a Royal Family and a Really True King. Not another like him anywhere else on Earth! If you are Thai be Proud of it! If you are Lao, Burmese, Cambodian, originally from Maylay States... be proud of it! Protect your heritage and your home Thailand.

This may anger some people and I understand if it does... I have two cheeks, if you slap one the other is fresh. I can still smile! If you slap the other...guess what! the otherside is healed and fresh again... In wars the only winner is Governments... People the World over suffer the same Results and Pain. Doesn't matter where you were born or where you grew up, its the same. Like crossing the street... Stop...Look and Listen, they apply to life also.

Also a Postscript... In American... Apple Pie, Hotdogs, Baseball, Fireworks and the 4th of July are all related. Dad has not once missed sitting in the yard after Dusk with the families of his "Other Boys" and his own to watch and enjoy as each setoff and shared their part of the fireworks display. Most lasted 1 hour at the most, in most cities. Their display always went from 9pm to past midnight. As the ... yes police! blocked off the road and hundreds of families spred Blankets in yards and the Park. To lay back and watch enjoy and wonder.... how this started a half century ago....

Edited December 13, 2012 by davidstipek

[jingjoke]

So where are those banners from the Muslims condemning the muslim-on-Thai violence? All we see in Phuket are anti falang banners hanging from local muslim shops. I know of no falangs who shoot 1 year old babies, do you?

Hmm...photos....pls

[jingjoke]

^^^ Re: 'Many of us are here today because Thailand did same for us 45+ years ago. Its Time to protect Both sanctions here as They Both (Cultures) were intrumental in our Survival and returning to settle here now.'

Whatever are you on about?

Who is 'us' and what 'Survival'?

Thais help Thais. Period.