Should We Discuss Restaurants/watering Holes?

[lamphun]

The other place is Chanchao's fantastic website - which would be an even better resource if people would add their own reviews.

Sounds intriguing. Can you post a link ?

[Johpa]

I read of a new word in the BK Post Magazine the other day.

Blurb Whore:

Someone who writes favourable comments in exchange for free food or travel:

That could be you then Kerry!

Ya, that's me. Right now I am working on the Spotlight and Star Six. Stay tuned.

Free samples at Spotlight could be interesting

cv

Yuck, not even for free.

[just_Elaine]

We really found the food/restaurant discussions on this forum helpful. We think the discussions are great and it is up to the reader to believe or not believe others' opinions.

[Ulysses G.]

I read of a new word in the BK Post Magazine the other day.

Blurb Whore:

Someone who writes favourable comments in exchange for free food or travel:

That could be you then Kerry!

Ya, that's me. Right now I am working on the Spotlight and Star Six. Stay tuned.

Free samples at Spotlight could be interesting

cv

Yuck, not even for free.

Coffeeboy then?

[chanchao]

I think such discussions are prefectly legitimate. What is perhaps not is any moderator with a vested interest or bias intefering with the thread.

I don't think that's fair. First of all in a general sense; all people here are forum members first and foremost, who enjoy being here and discussing things for the very same reason you do and everyone else does: to exchange views, learn stuff about things in Chiang Mai and contribute opinions.

Helping out moderating a forum is just that: 'helping out'. I recall a recently started dicsussion forum on Pattaya that proclaimed 'no moderators, free speech, post what you like'. They had to change that *very* quickly because without moderation, forums don't just get nasty, they get completely unusuable. (Check out the soc.culture.thai Usenet newsgroup (Google group) for an example).

Secondly, what you're saying is just factually wrong. "a moderator with a vested interest or bias is *interfering* with the thread". 'Interfering' can only mean using special privileges to steer a discussion in some way. (by deleting/editing other people's posts, banning members). I think we can all agree that contributing an opinion is not 'interfering', again keeping in mind that everyone here is a forum member first, and as most members do eat and visit restaurants, pretty much anyone is qualified and even encouraged to contribute an opinion.

If any moderator is 'interfering' in discussions then I guarantee you he won't be a moderator for long. This is simply a case of some people *disagreeing* with a fellow forum member who happens to be a moderator, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. That's what forums are for, and that's what we're all here for.

Thirdly, moving on from the moderator thingy, "should someone who works (or has worked, or will work again) in some industry comment on discussions on business in that industry.." Personally I would value someone's opinion *espcially* when he's knowledgeable on the topic. Honestly when someone would want to do harm to a competitors business it takes about 2 minutes to register a new user account and post bile. When the opinion is constructive, intended to *help* that business, when worded carefully and when not hiding behind a different anonymous username then I think that post is a valueable asset to the forum. But by all means disagree, or offer contradicting experiences.

Phew, on to my own opinion on the question posed by Pauly: YES. There's actually not much that we should *not* discuss when it's in or about Chiang Mai, and restaurants and entertainment places are among the more worthwhile topics (imho). Link to my site with a lot of food reviews (not so much restaurant reviews, the focus is more on local food types, especially also street food): http://chanchao.fotopages.com There are some restaurants in there though, but it's not an attempt to go review restaurants, especially not well known or obvious ones. I do like 'out of the way' gems though.

Cheers,

Chanchao

[jomama]

As I read "The Duke's" thread, I understood that posts were deleted and the thread then closed. Is that simple commentary?

[chanchao]

P1p just removed his own post because he was uncomfortable with the controversy he unintentionally caused. What more could anyone ask for? Note that everyone else can remove or edit their own posts too. It ended in some name-calling and other stuff not related to food or restaurants, then it was closed, but not removed, of course. Check the topic, it's still there. Would you like me to revive it and pin it permanently?

Overall I'd say it generated excellent exposure for the place, a lot more than with only positive comments even. I almost went there for dinner this weekend because of our discussion. (But got voted down by the Mrs. for reasons not related to Duke's or the food there, she loves it, too.)

In all seriousness, is there anything else you wanted to add about Duke's? Everyone already said everything they wanted to say, and out of all contributions *everybody* said they'd be going back there again. Doesn't get much better than that. Duke's should get the lot printed at framed.

[Ajarn]

P1p just removed his own post because he was uncomfortable with the controversy he unintentionally caused. What more could anyone ask for? Note that everyone else can remove or edit their own posts too.

Just his own post removed? Not true, as was discussed.

How can I remove or edit (after the clickoff time) my post?

[chanchao]

You don't get an 'edit' button under your own posts, along with 'quote' and 'reply' ? The one that pops up a small menu with 'Quick Edit' 'Full Edit' and 'Auto-mess-up this poor sod's post' ?

Man, life must suck when you're not a moderator demi-God but an ordinary mortal forum-dweller.

[Ulysses G.]

Man, life must suck when you're not a moderator demi-God but an ordinary mortal forum-dweller.

You don't need to rub it in.

[Ajarn]

P1p just removed his own post because he was uncomfortable with the controversy he unintentionally caused. What more could anyone ask for? Note that everyone else can remove or edit their own posts too.

Just his own post removed? Not true, as was discussed.

How can I remove or edit (after the clickoff time) my post?

I said after the clickoff time.. (or after someone else posts?)

And how to delete? No button for that...

[The Dan Sai Kid]

The other place is Chanchao's fantastic website - which would be an even better resource if people would add their own reviews.

Sounds intriguing. Can you post a link ?

Sorry, I never did it sooner, but I thought Chanchao would post the link!

http://chanchao.fotopages.com/

[Norman d'Plume]

P1p just removed his own post because he was uncomfortable with the controversy he unintentionally caused. What more could anyone ask for? Note that everyone else can remove or edit their own posts too.

Just his own post removed? Not true, as was discussed.

How can I remove or edit (after the clickoff time) my post?

I said after the clickoff time.. (or after someone else posts?)

And how to delete? No button for that...

I found a click on the "Report this post" button with a PM to the moderators asking for my post to be removed resulted in a quick removal.

Sorry, I never did it sooner, but I thought Chanchao would post the link!

http://chanchao.fotopages.com/

He did, in this post here.

I think such discussions are prefectly legitimate. What is perhaps not is any moderator with a vested interest or bias intefering with the thread.

I suppose it boils down to the question of whether you believe this moderator is abusing his position. If you truly think this, you should put your cards on the table and PM George and/or the other Admin asking that his Moderation rights be removed. Snide comments like this accomplish nothing apart from causing further ill will.

[Ajarn]

Note that everyone else can remove or edit their own posts too

I found a click on the "Report this post" button with a PM to the moderators asking for my post to be removed resulted in a quick removal.

Not the same is it?

I don' t know why chanchao can't answer his statements himself.

[jomama]

I suppose it boils down to the question of whether you believe this moderator is abusing his position. If you truly think this, you should put your cards on the table and PM George and/or the other Admin asking that his Moderation rights be removed. Snide comments like this accomplish nothing apart from causing further ill will.

Actually, I put my cards on the table here in public where they belong, not in private PMs to anybody. Nothing snide about it.

[Bytes]

I have been following this thread along with the originating thread, “The Dukes” for the pass 10 days or so and now offer my own personal opinion.

"Moderators, by definition should not be allowed to express their opinion(s)" on topics being discussed, regardless if some individuals may consider them helpful or not. I base this on the definition found on this link here.

Moderators are referees, not players, not spell correctors or spelling checkers. Being a moderator means subscripting to defined rules set forth by the web site owner and removing “posts”, which infringe on these rules.

In essences you’re a player or a referee, not both!

Edited February 21, 2006 by Bytes

[chanchao]

> Not the same is it?

> I don' t know why chanchao can't answer his statements himself.

Indeed it's not the same. I thought I remembered that ThaiVisa always had an edit function. I don't have another handle that's a regular member so I can't check this. However if I look at the previous post, the one by Bytes, I see a note at the bottom stating "This post has been editred by Bytes: date/time, etc." So the edit function must still be there somewhere. It's really useful too, can you check again? And perhaps open a topic on this the forum for board questions.

From what I understood from p1p he removed only his own post and the one that responded directly to it, which would not make any sense to any reader with the post being responded to no longer there. I do this sometimes too, in other discussions. It's less confusing to readers. I can of course understand the position that not touching people's posts is more important. In this case I don't think it matters that much, the debate itself was not affected or steered. In fact we're continuing it freely, right here.

[chanchao]

> "Moderators, by definition should not be allowed to express their

> opinion(s)" on topics being discussed, regardless if some individuals may

> consider them helpful or not. I base this on the definition found on this

> link here.

Hold on a minute, now you make it sound as if the above is a quote from that site (dictionary), where in fact that link has nothing about the question if moderators are supposed to join regular discussions or not. You're still entitled to your opinion on that of course.

However I strongly disagree. I've posted my position earlier, and in fact in the signature of every post I make, which is that moderators (myself at least) are members first, who help out with keeping things respectful, within the law & forum rules and generally readable and pleasant.

> In essences you’re a player or a referee, not both!

Well, in short, if I couldn't participate I would not be here. You're very welcome to your opinion of course, but ThaiVisa is not run that way. Most general interest forums actually aren't run that way other than perhaps forums for commercial companies, newspapers and so on. I have no trouble finding links with definitions or guidelines for moderators that show that in most online forums, moderators contribute freely and happily.

For example:

http://www.sitepoint.com/article/super-moderator-guide

And for a very exhaustive definition from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moderator_(communications)

I'll quote the relevant part, which is interesting:

" On some boards, moderators are expected to stay out of all contentious

debates, or at least to use alternate accounts to engage in them

unbeknownst to common members. On most boards, however,

moderators may participate just as any normal member, provided they

remain civil and generally obey the site rules. Some boards require

moderators not to moderate any discussion or topic they're involved in,

and many moderators on other boards take this upon themselves to

avoid conflict of interest and bias."

The reason this is interesting is that P1p has already chosen to do just that, after his post proved contentious. Kudos to him.

For myself I also tend not to do anything to a discussion I'm involved in even when posters clearly cross the line. Mostly some other moderator will then correct things. (Though it's not always obvious which moderator took what action so it may still result in resentment.)

Finally, the Chiang Mai subforum is probably not the best place to have this discussion, but I do think it's worthwhile. (Even though the forum rules say otherwise and generally don't allow discussion of moderator decisions or responsibilities. If at all possible though I think it's good to let everyone have their say. Also if a sizeable contingent of people feel that moderators should just moderate and not contribute then I would just leave the forum; in the end it's just an internet site, it's not that big a deal, really.

Cheers,

Chanchao

[Guest endure]

> Not the same is it?

> I don' t know why chanchao can't answer his statements himself.

Indeed it's not the same. I thought I remembered that ThaiVisa always had an edit function. I don't have another handle that's a regular member so I can't check this. However if I look at the previous post though (the one by Bytes) I see a note at teh bottom stating "This post has been editred by Bytes: Today, etc." So the edit function must still be there somewhere. It's really useful too, can you check again? And perhaps open a topic on this the forum for board questions.

Ordinary users have the edit function for about 10 minutes after they post a message. Then it disappears.

[zzap]

...

"Moderators, by definition should not be allowed to express their opinion(s)" on topics being discussed, regardless if some individuals may consider them helpful or not. I base this on the definition found on this link here.

Moderators are referees, not players, not spell correctors or spelling checkers. Being a moderator means subscripting to defined rules set forth by the web site owner and removing “posts”, which infringe on these rules.

In essences you’re a player or a referee, not both!

This is not a football game, and mods are here to enjoy themselves and participate, too.

However, I agree they shouldn't moderate in threads when they've expressed strong opinions of their own. Also, some courtesy note would be appreciated when multiple posts are removed.

[chanchao]

> Ordinary users have the edit function for about 10 minutes after

> they post a message. Then it disappears.

Ah, ok, that clarifies it for me.

I appreciate Zzap's post, agree fully and do indeed agree that leaving something in place (courtesy note, or leaving a partial post) is better than zapping posts into thin air. I will try to do so from now on.

[p1p]

Perhaps I should now jump in and add further clarification to a few matters, especially as much of this discussion seems to directly concern myself and/or actions I have taken.

I have been following this thread along with the originating thread, “The Dukes” for the pass 10 days or so and now offer my own personal opinion.

"Moderators, by definition should not be allowed to express their opinion(s)" on topics being discussed, regardless if some individuals may consider them helpful or not. I base this on the definition found on this link here.

Moderators are referees, not players, not spell correctors or spelling checkers. Being a moderator means subscripting to defined rules set forth by the web site owner and removing “posts”, which infringe on these rules.

In essences you’re a player or a referee, not both!

We had long discussions about this very point in the Moderators only forum a year or two ago. I was promulgating this very attitude but was voted down by all Admin and the vast majority of my fellow Moderators. Since that time, all Moderators and Admin have been free to ecoress their opinion on any subject they wished. In concert with all other Mods and Admin, I join discussions under my own name.

From what I understood from p1p he removed only his own post and the one that responded directly to it, which would not make any sense to any reader with the post being responded to no longer there. I do this sometimes too, in other discussions. It's less confusing to readers. I can of course understand the position that not touching people's posts is more important. In this case I don't think it matters that much, the debate itself was not affected or steered. In fact we're continuing it freely, right here.

I placed a post which was intended to not only give my own considered opinion about problems in the restaurant under discussion, but also to offer ways in which the owners / management might correct the problems I perceived to be evident there. I further stated that I would be happy to help to sort out these problems if they were to contact me.

This resulted in a host of posts, many of which were little more than unwarranted attacks on my personal integrity and myself personally. (Some of these attacks are still continuing in other threads by insinuation and underhand comment.)

After seeing these attacks and the direction the thread was headed, I made my post, (and all those making reference to it,) invisible and asked other Moderators to have a look and sort it out. I also posted a note to the effect that I had removed it and the reasons therefore. (Chanchao replied saying the posts were still there and quoting from them, although they have since been removed by other Mods or Admin without reference to myself.)

Since then I have kept my head low and taken no part in further discussions.

I have, at all times, tried to be honest and correct in my actions as either Moderator or member of Thaivisa. If however, the members of T/V or users of this forum feel I have acted improperly and/or am unworthy to be a moderator, please PM to George, Huski or Dr. P.P. They will, I am sure take your concerns with the gravest concern and discuss matters with you and myself. If they feel your concerns hold water, I shall immediately tender my resignation as Moderator and member of Thai Visa.

In any case, whether you raise your concerns or not, please stop the juvenile comments and insinuations. As another poster commented, they “accomplish nothing apart from causing further ill will.”

Note: the open forum is not the place to discuss Moderation issues. It is actually banned by the forum rules.

[The Dan Sai Kid]

Note: the open forum is not the place to discuss Moderation issues. It is actually banned by the forum rules.

I hope you give yourself a stern talking to for discussing it

Also, I don't see why mods shouldn't add opinions. They are CM residents too, and have plenty to say. I also think that somebody that was in the restaurant business in the past would be a good person to give an opinion about a place.

I'm going to the Dukes next week anyway - I want to see if it lives up to the hype!

Edited February 21, 2006 by Grant

[Ulysses G.]

I'm going to the Dukes next week anyway - I want to see if it lives up to the hype!

At lunchtime, try the steak sandwich with french fries and carrot cake for desert (if these are things that you normally like). I would be surprised if you are not impressed.

By the way, ice tea is all you can drink; they keep refilling!

[chuchok]

I'm going to the Dukes next week anyway - I want to see if it lives up to the hype!

At lunchtime, try the steak sandwich with french fries and carrot cake for desert (if these are things that you normally like). I would be surprised if you are not impressed.

By the way, ice tea is all you can drink; they keep refilling!

GP, I'm now beginning to think that the owner is your mate..either that or you are trying to bad a waitress...

[Ulysses G.]

I've known Dave since he opened the America restaurant in Chiang Mai in 1991. IMHO it was the first good farang restauarant in Chiang Mai that was reasonably priced.

However, my praise of the Duke's has nothing to do with personal relationships. It is to promote a worthwhile business so that it will be around when I want to go.

I was on a diet so I avoided the Duke's for almost one year after it opened, but I have been about twice a day since I broke down and tried it about a month ago.

I'm really enjoying it, but gaining weight back quickly!

[Ajarn]

I'm going to the Dukes next week anyway - I want to see if it lives up to the hype!

At lunchtime, try the steak sandwich with french fries and carrot cake for desert (if these are things that you normally like). I would be surprised if you are not impressed.

By the way, ice tea is all you can drink; they keep refilling!

Just by chance, that was my lunch today. Everthing was excellent

[ThaiPauly]

I've known Dave since he opened the America restaurant in Chiang Mai in 1991. IMHO it was the first good farang restauarant in Chiang Mai that was reasonably priced.

However, my praise of the Duke's has nothing to do with personal relationships. It is to promote a worthwhile business so that it will be around when I want to go.

I was on a diet so I avoided the Duke's for almost one year after it opened, but I have been about twice a day since I broke down and tried it about a month ago.

I'm really enjoying it, but gaining weight back quickly!

Oh please come over to our place.....

Promise we won't make you put on too much weight....... (just lighten your wallet a little )If we could get you talking about The Duke's as much as us ... we will be millionaires wivin a year .. won't we Rodney!!

[Ulysses G.]

What is the name of your place?

[Norman d'Plume]

What is the name of your place?

However if you want a Coffee Shop in Hang Dong than my Wife's place "The Secret Garden" has many types of coffee available - (she buys from Starbucks, but charges half their prices). Papers. magazines, choose your own music.. sit inside or in a sala.. choice is yours.. a very peaceful haven...try it if you are out that way

TP,

directions please.

Take the Hang Dong Road out of CM.

You will see plenty of signs pointing you towards Bann Tawai Handicrafts Centre.

Once you get to Hang Dong which is the first proper town about 9 cliks up from Central Airport Plazza, hook a left at the traffic lights,. The Secret Garden is exactly 1 klik up on the left, slightly set back from the road.

If you can hang on till the end of the month there will be Crossaints and English breakfasts available as well

Cheers

TP

Posted in the coffee shop thread