Surat Thani Discuss Banning Guns From Koh Phangan

[webfact]

MURDER

Surat Thani discuss banning guns from Koh Phangan

The Nation

SURAT THANI: -- Surat Thani authorities on Thursday held an urgent meeting to discuss the possibility of banning guns from Koh Phangan after a British man was caught in the crossfire between two groups of Thai men on New Year's day.

Stephen Ashton, 23, was shot in the side by a stray bullet as he and his friends celebrated the first day of 2013 on the island at about 5am. He succumbed to his injuries at a hospital.

Police have arrested Ekkaphan Kaewkla on charges of murder and being in possession of a gun. The suspect allegedly confessed that he fired his homemade gun killing Ashton accidentally, as he defended himself when a group of Thai men fired at him and his group.

Surat Thani Governor Chatpong Chataraputi chaired the meeting, putting forward the proposal that guns be banned from the island.

Ashton was the seventh Briton killed in Thailand since 2009.

-- The Nation 2013-01-03

Update:

Surat Thani to stop issuing permits to carry guns

SUCHAT SRITAMA ,

SUWANNEE BUNDISAK

THE NATION January 4, 2013

SURAT THANI: -- Authorities in Surat Thani yesterday decided to stop issuing or renewing permits for individuals to carry weapons in Koh Pha-ngan as part of tighter security measures after a British tourist was killed in a crossfire between two Thai gangs on New Year's Day, Governor Chatpong Chataraputi said.

The move came as key private organisations called on the government to ensure the safety of tourists and maintain Thailand's reputation as a popular destination.

The Tourism and Sports Ministry announced yesterday that safety measures for tourists would be enhanced and highlighted as a national agenda, ministry spokesman Vachara Kannikar said as he admitted that recent incidents had tarnished Thailand's reputation.

Meanwhile, the governor yesterday held an urgent meeting in which it was agreed that concerned agencies would not issue new permits or renew existing permits as a means to prevent the use of guns on the island, which is popular among foreigners for its full-moon parties.

Also, at every full-moon party, officials will conduct a close inspection of all arrivals at the piers, the governor said, adding that any weapons found would be confiscated and returned later.

Prakit Chinamourphong, vice president of the Thai Hotels Association (THA), said the country's image had been destroyed because many tourists had been killed, robbed or raped in key tourist destinations like Pattaya, Phuket and Krabi. On December 26, two Russian women were robbed and raped near the Bang Lamung reservoir in Chon Buri.

He called on the government to put in place more security measures to prevent further incidents and ensure tourists' confidence while they are in the country.

"More police officers are urgently needed at all major destinations in order to provide better care for tourists. Some high risk places like Pattaya may need specific measures," Prakit said.

According to THA, tourism has been picking up now that political unrest has eased and things have been stable for the past two years. However, the situation might worsen now, he warned.

Last year, up to 21.5 million tourists visited Thailand, higher than the projected 20.5 million. The government aims for 21 million arrivals this year and hopes to receive up to 22.2 million in 2014.

"If the government wants to see continual growth in tourism, then they should move to protect visitors and end this problem," Prakit advised.

According to Sisdivachr Chevarattanaporn, president of the Association of Thai Travel Agents (ATTA), the government should ensure the safety of tourists in big cities like Pattaya where the crime rate is on the rise.

As per ATTA's statistics, more than 2 million Chinese tourists visited Thailand in 2012, while there were a million each from Russia, Japan and South Korea.

"These are our key tourist markets and they are very sensitive about safety issues, so the government should consider this. If our government cannot ensure top security, we face huge losses," Sisdhivachr warned.

Piyaman Tejabaibun, president of the Tourism Council of Thailand (TCT), warned that many people planning to visit Thailand might be worried about their safety, though she added that they will probably not change their itinerary. Hence, she said, the number of arrivals should meet the target.

"The TCT hopes that the tourism industry will continue growing this year because there are no indicators of the industry being affected," she said.

Pornthip Hirunkate, vice president for marketing at the TCT and also managing director of leading travel agency Destination Asia, said that despite the two recent incidents most of her clients have not changed their plans to visit the Kingdom.

However, she admitted that safety was a crucial issue and that the council had been working hard with local authorities to find a long-term solution. She has also called on the government to take quick, serious action against criminals to help boost tourist confidence in the country. She warned that if nothing was done immediately, the industry would be hurt very badly, especially in terms of Russian tourists.

-- The Nation 2013-01-04

[gl555]

While I'm all for a gun ban, I find the reasoning here a little silly.

Stephen Ashton was killed by some idiot with an ILLEGAL HOME MADE firearm. He wasn't supposed to have one in the first place. Even if the ban was in force that night, I really doubt it would have stopped the incident from happening.

[Boater]

2 points in the report , he was 22 not 23 , and 7 Brits have been murdered in the past year , not sinse 2009 ...

In stead of banning , which won't work .. Why don't they police the even more and have metal dectors

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[angsta]

Has this alleged home made gun been seen, I assume the police have it so where is the photo?

Have any of the other 30,000 people at the FMP come forward to say they witness this 'accident' and this alleged home made gun?

[yorkie100]

Has this alleged home made gun been seen, I assume the police have it so where is the photo?

Have any of the other 30,000 people at the FMP come forward to say they witness this 'accident' and this alleged home made gun?

Yes, the gun was shown during a news clip on ITV News in the UK last night which also showed the suspect under arrest.

I'm no expert but if it was home made it still looked like a 'normal' gun to me.

[itsala]

I am by no means an expert. But in banning guns, they mean legally obtained guns....which I assume would be unlikely to be used in an illegal gun fight between rival drug dealers.

[AlfGarnett]

Hmmm, so they can only ban the ones they know about, which happen to be legal? So someone with a legal gun at home, kept for protecting their family/property would banned, and all the illegal ones would still be in circulation? Seems a strange statement, although at least they are trying to address the issue.

[BigC]

Maybe ban drugs makes about as much sense ban something that is already banned

[JetsetBkk]

Aren't they banned already?

[itsala]

part of the attraction of the moon parties (half, full, black, cloud obscured) is the perceived freedom from authority. the problem is that when something goes wrong everyone wants authority to step in.

you can ban drugs (some drugs, half the party goers wont come) you can ban the dealers (some drugs, half the party goers wont come) Or you can apply the full, rule of law (none of the party goers will come).

you cannot dance with the devil and then complain your shoes got burnt.

[Skorz]

My ex-wife was born in Samui and her family were from Baan Tai on Koh Phangan (her Mum was born on the Island) and so I speak with some experience on this matter.

Banning guns on Koh Phangan (and Samui and Tao) is a very good idea. I say this because practically every Thai (and an increasing amount of long term foreign expats) either has a shooter in their car, under the house (in a little tin box buried in the sand) or has very quick access to one via a friend.

In the case of the local (and not so local Nakon Sri Thamerat bad boys that often come and get casual bar work onthe beaches) owning a gun is usually the only option if you want to be taken seriously amongst your pikey mates.

To aggravate this further, there seems to be something inherently violent in the very nature with the island people, especially the youth, quick tempered, very easily offended and with no sense of consequence.

I noticed that many Islanders also lack any genuine compassion for foreigners and would almost seem to take a degree of pleasure in witnessing the beating or swindling tourists at the hands of the locals or other Thais. The reason the police are not (usually) effective in dealing with muggings, beatings, thefts and rapes on Koh Phangan, is that unless they can pin the crime onto an innocent Burmese or mainland character, they are too bloody scared to confront a local lad for fear of stirring up trouble from by his brothers, uncles, parents. A green cop sent to Koh Phangan is on a hardship posting and is well out of his comfort zone.

Ban guns. It will make a difference because pissed up knob heads will be more reluctant flashing them around in public shows of bravado, which is usually when an accident happens and somebody get's caught in the cross fire and gets hurt.

[Arkady]

Hmmm, so they can only ban the ones they know about, which happen to be legal? So someone with a legal gun at home, kept for protecting their family/property would banned, and all the illegal ones would still be in circulation? Seems a strange statement, although at least they are trying to address the issue.

No. That's not what they said. They said they would stop issuing and renewing permits to carry guns on Koh Phangan and try to prevent those who carry permits issued elsewhere from bringing their guns onto Koh Phangan, i.e. like Dodge City - check your gun at the ferry terminal and pick it up on departure. However, it is unlikely that they really mean this anyway. It is purely for PR purposes.

They didn't say they would make any changes regarding the common or garden permit to keep and use a gun at home for protection which is relatively easy to obtain. This is a life time permit, so even if they decided to stop issuing new ones, it would make no difference those already issued.

[Arkady]

This is purely damage control posturing and will have no effect whatsoever.

These carry permits are extremely difficult to obtain and the ban will thus affect a very small number of people. In fact it is hardly likely to affect anyone at all. The governor still has the power to issue the carry permits and can thus make an exemption for anyone on Koh Phangan or visiting the island that he feels still needs a carry permit or just has loads of money and influence. Definitely the bodyguards of any visiting politician or other big shot are not going to be asked to check in their guns at the pier and would refuse, even if they were asked.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Arkady

[Arkady]

My ex-wife was born in Samui and her family were from Baan Tai on Koh Phangan (her Mum was born on the Island) and so I speak with some experience on this matter.

Banning guns on Koh Phangan (and Samui and Tao) is a very good idea. I say this because practically every Thai (and an increasing amount of long term foreign expats) either has a shooter in their car, under the house (in a little tin box buried in the sand) or has very quick access to one via a friend.

In the case of the local (and not so local Nakon Sri Thamerat bad boys that often come and get casual bar work onthe beaches) owning a gun is usually the only option if you want to be taken seriously amongst your pikey mates.

To aggravate this further, there seems to be something inherently violent in the very nature with the island people, especially the youth, quick tempered, very easily offended and with no sense of consequence.

I noticed that many Islanders also lack any genuine compassion for foreigners and would almost seem to take a degree of pleasure in witnessing the beating or swindling tourists at the hands of the locals or other Thais. The reason the police are not (usually) effective in dealing with muggings, beatings, thefts and rapes on Koh Phangan, is that unless they can pin the crime onto an innocent Burmese or mainland character, they are too bloody scared to confront a local lad for fear of stirring up trouble from by his brothers, uncles, parents. A green cop sent to Koh Phangan is on a hardship posting and is well out of his comfort zone.

Ban guns. It will make a difference because pissed up knob heads will be more reluctant flashing them around in public shows of bravado, which is usually when an accident happens and somebody get's caught in the cross fire and gets hurt.

Great post. But unfortunately they haven't said they have any intention of banning guns just to stop issuing and renewing carry permits. They didn't say how are currently issue on Koh Phangan but I bet that they can be counted on the fingers of a mutilated hand and anyway there will be exceptions. In other words they have undertaken to do absolutely nothing of consequence.

What they really need to do is ban illegal guns but since these are already banned there is no need. Perhaps banning legal guns kept in homes should be considered. No doubt a small minority of gun crimes are committed with these.

What is totally lacking is a determination to get extremely tough in enforcing the law on illegal guns. Frequent road blocks with cops searching for guns. Stop and frisk around bars at night. Random checks at bars to check patrons and staff for guns. Not difficult to do but the police are willing to do it for fear of a backlash and because they all illegally carry guns off duty.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Arkady

[spidermike007]

I am by no means an expert. But in banning guns, they mean legally obtained guns....which I assume would be unlikely to be used in an illegal gun fight between rival drug dealers.

Exactly. Guns are already illegal in thailand, for the most part, so this ban would simply be more window dressing, and allow the authorities to stop finding a real solution to this problem. What about the deterrent factor? What about finding clean police, clean judges, and sentencing this insect to life in prison? What about jailing people who offer bribes? What about the central government getting involved? How on earth would a gun ban, which is more of less already in effect change anything?

The vast majority of violent crimes in thailand remain thai on thai. This was unfortunate, as a foreigner was in the path of a stray bullet. But, the fact remains that many young thai men love killing eachother. They think it is fun, and they will do it for the slightest insult. It is a fact that most thai men under the age of 25 have the emotional development of a 13 year old girl. So, instead of stratching eachothers eyes out, they simply shoot eachother. And, if they are courageous enough to engage in a simple fistfight to save their adolescent girl honor, they will bring 8 friends along, instead of fighting like a man, which most of them are not. Although it sounds insulting, I have never in my life run into a less impressive group of people, than thai men under 25. Anywhere. What does that mean for the future of this lovely country, and it's people?

[sbk]

Since the guy was using a homemade gun, its highly unlikely he had any kind of permit at all, I am not sure what difference this will make. In fact most people who use their guns in drunken arguments don't have legal guns. Unless we count the crazy cop who went ballistic years ago and shot a bunch of his fellow policemen.

[Arkady]

I am by no means an expert. But in banning guns, they mean legally obtained guns....which I assume would be unlikely to be used in an illegal gun fight between rival drug dealers.

Exactly. Guns are already illegal in thailand, for the most part, so this ban would simply be more window dressing, and allow the authorities to stop finding a real solution to this problem. What about the deterrent factor? What about finding clean police, clean judges, and sentencing this insect to life in prison? What about jailing people who offer bribes? What about the central government getting involved? How on earth would a gun ban, which is more of less already in effect change anything?

The vast majority of violent crimes in thailand remain thai on thai. This was unfortunate, as a foreigner was in the path of a stray bullet. But, the fact remains that many young thai men love killing eachother. They think it is fun, and they will do it for the slightest insult. It is a fact that most thai men under the age of 25 have the emotional development of a 13 year old girl. So, instead of stratching eachothers eyes out, they simply shoot eachother. And, if they are courageous enough to engage in a simple fistfight to save their adolescent girl honor, they will bring 8 friends along, instead of fighting like a man, which most of them are not. Although it sounds insulting, I have never in my life run into a less impressive group of people, than thai men under 25. Anywhere. What does that mean for the future of this lovely country, and it's people?

You are being extremely insulting to the average 13 year old girl.

[caughtintheact]

For those who think a gun ban is the solution, how many of you also complain about government abuse of power, yet you want to take self protection away from the people? Maybe a gun ban will deter people from flashing guns around, but if they are intent on using them they will not flaunt them, until they start shooting, and there may not be anyone around to stop them until the damage is done, because of a gun ban. . Of course, if one is a gun smuggler, a ban would be great news, because it will drive up the prices on the illegal guns that will be smuggled into any place where there is a demand. I have a suspicion that people who want guns banned are those who love the sight of innocent, bloody, dead people who have no means of defense and are killed by irresponsible people, e.g., criminals and the deranged. Flame away!

[Arkady]

I think the point is that the authorities are at least trying to do 'something' which surely has got to be applauded. Of course, as in any country, the criminal fraternity will always be able to access firearms, and the potential for danger and for tragic incidents like the recent one will always be there unless other steps are taken to reduce the likelihood of the carriage of weapons at public events. However, a ban on the legal possession, would probably reduce the potentail for fatal shootings arising from arising from drunken arguments and disagreements, and spontaneous acts of complete madness, about which are informed about with far too much frequency, and who knows, perhaps the idea might spread - an absolute ban on firearms on tourist islands?

Wrong. The authorities are trying to avoid doing anything. The governor of Surat is under pressure to make a statement that conveys confident that the authorities are trying to do something to protect tourists and curb out of control gun crime. So he is come out with a statement that sounds good to those who are unable to focus on what he said or simply can't understand it. Meanwhile, no change to what happens on the ground. A sincere explanation of what was announced should have sounded something like this, "In 2012 we issued or renewed 5 carry permits for people with a registered address on Koh Phangan. As a result of our new policy we expect to refuse to renew all 5 of these permits in the initial instance. However, after receiving requests for reconsideration along with large brown envelopes we will renew all 5." Edited January 4, 2013 by Arkady

[spidermike007]

I think the point is that the authorities are at least trying to do 'something' which surely has got to be applauded. Of course, as in any country, the criminal fraternity will always be able to access firearms, and the potential for danger and for tragic incidents like the recent one will always be there unless other steps are taken to reduce the likelihood of the carriage of weapons at public events. However, a ban on the legal possession, would probably reduce the potentail for fatal shootings arising from arising from drunken arguments and disagreements, and spontaneous acts of complete madness, about which are informed about with far too much frequency, and who knows, perhaps the idea might spread - an absolute ban on firearms on tourist islands?

Wrong. The authorities are trying to avoid doing anything. The governor of Surat is under pressure to make a statement that conveys confident that the authorities are trying to do something to protect tourists and curb out of control gun crime. So he is come out with a statement that sounds good to those who are unable to focus on what he said or simply can't understand it. Meanwhile, no change to what happens on the ground. A sincere explanation of what was announced should have sounded something like this, "In 2012 we issued or renewed 5 carry permits for people with a registered address on Koh Phangan. As a result of our new policy we expect to refuse to renew all 5 of these permits in the initial instance. However, after receiving requests for reconsideration along with large brown envelopes we will renew all 5."

Some things never change. One thing you can be certain about, is that the governor is not serious about correcting this problem. I was speaking to a friend who was at one of these parties with his stunning girlfriend. A rather drunk thai man approached them at the bar, and said he wanted to bang his girlfriend. My friend made light of his ridiculous statement, and then the hooligan goombah lifted up his shirt, to reveal that he had a 9mm pistol in his waistband. My friend was savvy enough to make a joke, and walk away. Many would not have been.

[jinners]

For those who think a gun ban is the solution, how many of you also complain about government abuse of power, yet you want to take self protection away from the people? Maybe a gun ban will deter people from flashing guns around, but if they are intent on using them they will not flaunt them, until they start shooting, and there may not be anyone around to stop them until the damage is done, because of a gun ban. . Of course, if one is a gun smuggler, a ban would be great news, because it will drive up the prices on the illegal guns that will be smuggled into any place where there is a demand. I have a suspicion that people who want guns banned are those who love the sight of innocent, bloody, dead people who have no means of defense and are killed by irresponsible people, e.g., criminals and the deranged. Flame away!

Sounds like a standard American gun loving member of the NRA statement to me, please correct me (which I'm sure you will) But isn't banning guns a bit of a no brainer? Why would doing nothing be better than doing something? Presumably this isn't just a cheap sound bite but an effort to stop this nail in the coffin for tourism and the associated funds? Controlling illegal weapons won't be easy, but if guns are banned, then the licensing/legal/illegal argument is moot! And no, I don't love the sight of innocent bloody dead people, bit OTT mate if you ask me!

[gl555]

For those who think a gun ban is the solution, how many of you also complain about government abuse of power, yet you want to take self protection away from the people? Maybe a gun ban will deter people from flashing guns around, but if they are intent on using them they will not flaunt them, until they start shooting, and there may not be anyone around to stop them until the damage is done, because of a gun ban. . Of course, if one is a gun smuggler, a ban would be great news, because it will drive up the prices on the illegal guns that will be smuggled into any place where there is a demand. I have a suspicion that people who want guns banned are those who love the sight of innocent, bloody, dead people who have no means of defense and are killed by irresponsible people, e.g., criminals and the deranged. Flame away!

Sounds like a standard American gun loving member of the NRA statement to me, please correct me (which I'm sure you will) But isn't banning guns a bit of a no brainer? Why would doing nothing be better than doing something? Presumably this isn't just a cheap sound bite but an effort to stop this nail in the coffin for tourism and the associated funds? Controlling illegal weapons won't be easy, but if guns are banned, then the licensing/legal/illegal argument is moot! And no, I don't love the sight of innocent bloody dead people, bit OTT mate if you ask me!

And in this case, the guy was murdered with an illegal firearm. What difference would it make here if guns were banned? He would have still been killed.

[mickba]

"Also, at every full-moon party, officials will conduct a close inspection of all arrivals at the piers, the governor said, adding that any weapons found would be confiscated and returned later."

Didn't they try that at Dodge City?

[Psych01]

Hi all, from what I understand, it is illegal to hold a firearm in Thailand of any description, unless you have obtained the correct paperwork etc. I have used Google and found the following information:

http://www.vertic.org/media/National%20Legislation/Thailand/TH_Firearms_Ammunition_Act.pdf

http://www.poa-iss.org/CASACountryProfile/PoANationalReports/2003@[email protected]

and this one, which is a Thai law forum:

http://www.thailawforum.com/database1/thailand-gun-law.htmlhttp://www.thailawforum.com/database1/thailand-gun-law.html

They all refer to the, Act Controlling Firearms, Ammunition, Explosives, Fireworks and Imitation of Firearms. Surely all they need to do, as is normally here, is enforce the law.

[MILT]

Now only the criminals will have weapons! I would think a more active police beat would be more of a threat to the bad guys than banning guns. Guns don't kill people. People kill people.

[A Member]

Saw the governor on tv and the translation, accurate I presume, was ridiculous. Tourist areas will be "firearm free" by the end of the year, scams will carry major punishment etc., hope he believes it as no one else is likely to. It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear to be a fool than to open it and remove all doubt

[Travelman868]

My ex-wife was born in Samui and her family were from Baan Tai on Koh Phangan (her Mum was born on the Island) and so I speak with some experience on this matter.

Banning guns on Koh Phangan (and Samui and Tao) is a very good idea. I say this because practically every Thai (and an increasing amount of long term foreign expats) either has a shooter in their car, under the house (in a little tin box buried in the sand) or has very quick access to one via a friend.

In the case of the local (and not so local Nakon Sri Thamerat bad boys that often come and get casual bar work onthe beaches) owning a gun is usually the only option if you want to be taken seriously amongst your pikey mates.

To aggravate this further, there seems to be something inherently violent in the very nature with the island people, especially the youth, quick tempered, very easily offended and with no sense of consequence.

I noticed that many Islanders also lack any genuine compassion for foreigners and would almost seem to take a degree of pleasure in witnessing the beating or swindling tourists at the hands of the locals or other Thais. The reason the police are not (usually) effective in dealing with muggings, beatings, thefts and rapes on Koh Phangan, is that unless they can pin the crime onto an innocent Burmese or mainland character, they are too bloody scared to confront a local lad for fear of stirring up trouble from by his brothers, uncles, parents. A green cop sent to Koh Phangan is on a hardship posting and is well out of his comfort zone.

Ban guns. It will make a difference because pissed up knob heads will be more reluctant flashing them around in public shows of bravado, which is usually when an accident happens and somebody get's caught in the cross fire and gets hurt.

A well informed post Thank you.

The article says that the Police will search people attending the parties take away the guns and give them back later. That's totally mad. Why do they have these guns in the first place

[khunken]

Ah the usual 'guns don't kill people, people kill people' crap. Doing anything to reduce the number of legally held guns somewhat logically reduces the pool of those guns being stolen or acquired illegally.

Yes, the phu yai & their bodyguards will always have guns, probably legally. But any proliferation of gun ownership invites wild-west style shootouts - just like the one that killed the unfortunate tourist.

[RigPig]

Surat Thani discuss banning guns from Koh Phangan

Is this because they are home made and VERY inaccurate?

OOPs SORRY couldn't help myself

Stopping "carry permits" isn't going to help if the guns are home made and illegal anyway............

If someone hasn't already said this, haven't read the thread yet.

Edit: changed font size

[Skorz]

For those who think a gun ban is the solution, how many of you also complain about government abuse of power, yet you want to take self protection away from the people? Maybe a gun ban will deter people from flashing guns around, but if they are intent on using them they will not flaunt them, until they start shooting, and there may not be anyone around to stop them until the damage is done, because of a gun ban. . Of course, if one is a gun smuggler, a ban would be great news, because it will drive up the prices on the illegal guns that will be smuggled into any place where there is a demand. I have a suspicion that people who want guns banned are those who love the sight of innocent, bloody, dead people who have no means of defense and are killed by irresponsible people, e.g., criminals and the deranged. Flame away!

Sounds like a standard American gun loving member of the NRA statement to me, please correct me (which I'm sure you will) But isn't banning guns a bit of a no brainer? Why would doing nothing be better than doing something? Presumably this isn't just a cheap sound bite but an effort to stop this nail in the coffin for tourism and the associated funds? Controlling illegal weapons won't be easy, but if guns are banned, then the licensing/legal/illegal argument is moot! And no, I don't love the sight of innocent bloody dead people, bit OTT mate if you ask me!

And in this case, the guy was murdered with an illegal firearm. What difference would it make here if guns were banned? He would have still been killed.

The point of banning guns is that it will compromise the current island culture of waving guns around in public and acting like pirates. If guns are illegal on KPG then you won't be able to turn around to a navvy policeman (or an experienced long term cop who is married to the sister of a local bar owner etc) and say, it wasn't my gun, it was my dads. You won't be able to admit to owning a gun in front of the wrong people and further, you will be in a position where somebody can grass you up for owning a gun. Banning guns will stigmatise bravado culture. Sure, there will still be some who will keep their guns, but a lot of people will stop owning them, which by simple mathematics reduces the risk of somebody getting shot. To all the NRA nuts out there, how many times have you heard of a genuine shooting in self defence on the islands? You don't need a gun to defend yourself, a law and culture protecting where you have a neighbourhood where people generally don't have guns considered normal and where the young men of local decent do not consider guns an extension of their manhoods.