P A D Threatens To Take To Streets Again Over Preah Vihear, Makes Seven Demands

[Thai at Heart]

I honestly hope they rule it in Cambodia just to legally put it to bed once and for all, and then the current government negotiate some kind of agreement for possible use and access.

In a way have ptp on power now means they may be able t to rein in the army and keep a lid on the pad. Otherwise, it would have lead to another serious armed confrontation inevitably.

The surrounding land which is in dispute isn't needed for Thai access to the temple. The land used for access by Thailand isn't in dispute. The land that is in dispute is basically just farm land.

Ok. I thought it was the case that it made access easier through this land.

[whybother]

I honestly hope they rule it in Cambodia just to legally put it to bed once and for all, and then the current government negotiate some kind of agreement for possible use and access.

In a way have ptp on power now means they may be able t to rein in the army and keep a lid on the pad. Otherwise, it would have lead to another serious armed confrontation inevitably.

The surrounding land which is in dispute isn't needed for Thai access to the temple. The land used for access by Thailand isn't in dispute. The land that is in dispute is basically just farm land.

Ok. I thought it was the case that it made access easier through this land.

I think it's the other way around. It will give the Cambodians easier access from their side.

[Thai at Heart]

I honestly hope they rule it in Cambodia just to legally put it to bed once and for all, and then the current government negotiate some kind of agreement for possible use and access.

In a way have ptp on power now means they may be able t to rein in the army and keep a lid on the pad. Otherwise, it would have lead to another serious armed confrontation inevitably.

The surrounding land which is in dispute isn't needed for Thai access to the temple. The land used for access by Thailand isn't in dispute. The land that is in dispute is basically just farm land.

Ok. I thought it was the case that it made access easier through this land.

I think it's the other way around. It will give the Cambodians easier access from their side.

Aha. Interesting

[bigbamboo]

Why not let the political leaders of the two nations, Hun Sen and Thaksin, get together and sort it out.

Maybe they could play a game of golf for it.

[Moruya]

Why not let the political leaders of the two nations, Hun Sen and Thaksin, get together and sort it out.

Maybe they could play a game of golf for it.

Why not let the political leaders of the two nations, Hun Sen and Thaksin, get together and sort it out.

Maybe they could play a game of golf for it.

The golf of Thailand is the game.....

[LaoPo]

The fact that there is a gorge between the Thai outpost and the temple doesn't prove that that is the watershed.

The watershed is considered to be at the top of the range or the ridge line. The temple slopes down towards Thailand, so that would indicate that the top of the range is on the Cambodian side of the temple, meaning that the temple is on the Thai side of the watershed.

BUT, I don't believe that the watershed is in dispute. The Thais are using the treaty for their case. The Cambodians are using the maps (as posted above) for their case. The Cambodians aren't arguing that the temple is on the Cambodian side of the watershed. They are only arguing that the maps attached to the treaty a couple of years after the treaty was signed show that the temple is in Cambodia.

Surely, there must be some sort of maps from way BEFORE the treaty was signed in 1904 and "mapped" in 107 ?

The Khmer started building the temple on site in the early 9th century. Thats more than thousands years earlier.

Aren't there any old border maps of the area including Thailand, Cambodia and further north, Laos ? (incuding the temple area)

[whybother]

The fact that there is a gorge between the Thai outpost and the temple doesn't prove that that is the watershed.

The watershed is considered to be at the top of the range or the ridge line. The temple slopes down towards Thailand, so that would indicate that the top of the range is on the Cambodian side of the temple, meaning that the temple is on the Thai side of the watershed.

BUT, I don't believe that the watershed is in dispute. The Thais are using the treaty for their case. The Cambodians are using the maps (as posted above) for their case. The Cambodians aren't arguing that the temple is on the Cambodian side of the watershed. They are only arguing that the maps attached to the treaty a couple of years after the treaty was signed show that the temple is in Cambodia.

Surely, there must be some sort of maps from way BEFORE the treaty was signed in 1904 and "mapped" in 107 ?

The Khmer started building the temple on site in the early 9th century. Thats more than thousands years earlier.

Aren't there any old border maps of the area including Thailand, Cambodia and further north, Laos ? (incuding the temple area)

Yep ... maps with Seam Reap in Thailand, and maps with a lot of Thailand in "Cambodia". None of them are relevant because the France-Siamese treaty in 1904 redefined the border.

[LaoPo]

The fact that there is a gorge between the Thai outpost and the temple doesn't prove that that is the watershed.

The watershed is considered to be at the top of the range or the ridge line. The temple slopes down towards Thailand, so that would indicate that the top of the range is on the Cambodian side of the temple, meaning that the temple is on the Thai side of the watershed.

BUT, I don't believe that the watershed is in dispute. The Thais are using the treaty for their case. The Cambodians are using the maps (as posted above) for their case. The Cambodians aren't arguing that the temple is on the Cambodian side of the watershed. They are only arguing that the maps attached to the treaty a couple of years after the treaty was signed show that the temple is in Cambodia.

Surely, there must be some sort of maps from way BEFORE the treaty was signed in 1904 and "mapped" in 107 ?

The Khmer started building the temple on site in the early 9th century. Thats more than thousands years earlier.

Aren't there any old border maps of the area including Thailand, Cambodia and further north, Laos ? (incuding the temple area)

Yep ... maps with Seam Reap in Thailand, and maps with a lot of Thailand in "Cambodia". None of them are relevant because the France-Siamese treaty in 1904 redefined the border.

Thank you for your input!

Let's see what the outcome in April will be when both parties travel to the ICJ in The Hague but never mind the outcome, I fear that the PAD will take every opportunity to stir things to bring further unrest in the country and that's a sad thought

May Buddha forbid that Thailand starts a war with Cambodia because of the PAD's actions

[dighambara]

The Thais are such bad losers when they don't get their way. Like little spoilt children.

The temple belongs to the Khmers, it is a Khmer Hindu temple. It was demarcated on the Cambodian side of the border.

Everyone seems to forget Thailand's habitual land grabs of Khmer and Cambodian territory, especially during WWII when fascist general Phibun invaded and claimed much of Western Cambodia for Thailand, only to be forced to give it all back when Thailand ended up on the losing side at the end of the war. Victory Monument in Bangkok commemorates that shameful land grab.

Throughout recent history Thailand has been the aggressor along the border with Cambodia, training, arming and conducting raids with Khmer Rouge cadres while Pol Pot was given safe refuge in Trat after his odious regime was ousted by the Vietnamese.

Ignorance spouted in public. The Khmer Empire died of Bubonic Plague in the 14th century.

The Siamese helped the people rebuild, with a new capital 'U-Thong' (named for the first King of Ayuttaya) and a new name Cambodia. Siamese artizans were sent to teach all the ancient arts to the survivors of the plague.

Logic = Siam's 10,000 man army could never have defeated the Khmer 1,000,000 soldiers.

History shows plague to be the reason the entire 'Outer Indian Empire' collapsed within less than a century...

Read, G. Coedes "The Indianized States of Southeast Asia"...

First, the French took Cochin China from Cambodia, then took Angkor from Siam, followed by taking Laos from Siam.

Siam Reap was a Siamese border garrison, with the responsibility to oversee Angkor. Verbal agreements by the French to return Angkor to Siam (Thialand) were ignored and France gave 11 Siamese provinces to Cambodia - apparently to repay for giving Cochin China to Vietnam.

The entire border dispute was created by the French invasion of South East Asia, over a century ago.

Thailand is not in the wrong - French Indo China is

[LaoPo]

Thailand is not in the wrong - French Indo China is

Hmmm, if the whole world starts screaming about ancient and/or former borders we better run to the supermarkets and store food and water for the next 2 decades since every single country wants their old borders back and start wars....

Will the US give California back to Mexico or first to the Spaniards or maybe better to the native American Indians in the first place ?

Will Austria claim back their former borders when it was once a giant ENORMOUS power in Old Europe?

I could give you a few more (hundreds) examples so I think we better should leave it to the ICJ in April 2013 to decide who is in it's right: Cambodia or Thailand.

BUT, the PAD already threatens that Thailand should ignore the ICJ's decision which would create a VERY dangerous "fait accompli" if the Thai Government would accept the "demands" by the PAD!

Hmmmm

Edited January 6, 2013 by LaoPo

[JurgenG]

Ignorance spouted in public. The Khmer Empire died of Bubonic Plague in the 14th century.

The Siamese helped the people rebuild, with a new capital 'U-Thong' (named for the first King of Ayuttaya) and a new name Cambodia. Siamese artizans were sent to teach all the ancient arts to the survivors of the plague.

Logic = Siam's 10,000 man army could never have defeated the Khmer 1,000,000 soldiers.

History shows plague to be the reason the entire 'Outer Indian Empire' collapsed within less than a century...

Read, G. Coedes "The Indianized States of Southeast Asia"...

First, the French took Cochin China from Cambodia, then took Angkor from Siam, followed by taking Laos from Siam.

Siam Reap was a Siamese border garrison, with the responsibility to oversee Angkor. Verbal agreements by the French to return Angkor to Siam (Thialand) were ignored and France gave 11 Siamese provinces to Cambodia - apparently to repay for giving Cochin China to Vietnam.

The entire border dispute was created by the French invasion of South East Asia, over a century ago.

Thailand is not in the wrong - French Indo China is

Agree with dighambara, lets blame the French and move over.

The temple is just a pretext from the PAD to fight the fact they have become irrelevant in today's world.

So lets blame the French. From my side I will boycott Champagne and Fois Gras for the whole of January (no relation with the fact that I gain 3 Kg during Xmas/New Year .... ) and lets help the Russians on the Pukhet front .

Edited January 6, 2013 by JurgenG

[LaoPo]

Ignorance spouted in public. The Khmer Empire died of Bubonic Plague in the 14th century.

The Siamese helped the people rebuild, with a new capital 'U-Thong' (named for the first King of Ayuttaya) and a new name Cambodia. Siamese artizans were sent to teach all the ancient arts to the survivors of the plague.

Logic = Siam's 10,000 man army could never have defeated the Khmer 1,000,000 soldiers.

History shows plague to be the reason the entire 'Outer Indian Empire' collapsed within less than a century...

Read, G. Coedes "The Indianized States of Southeast Asia"...

First, the French took Cochin China from Cambodia, then took Angkor from Siam, followed by taking Laos from Siam.

Siam Reap was a Siamese border garrison, with the responsibility to oversee Angkor. Verbal agreements by the French to return Angkor to Siam (Thialand) were ignored and France gave 11 Siamese provinces to Cambodia - apparently to repay for giving Cochin China to Vietnam.

The entire border dispute was created by the French invasion of South East Asia, over a century ago.

Thailand is not in the wrong - French Indo China is

Agree with dighambara, lets blame the French and move over.

The temple is just a pretext from the PAD to fight the fact they have become irrelevant in today's world.

So lets blame the French. From my side I will boycott Champagne and Fois Gras for the whole of January (no relation with the fact that I gain 3 Kg during Xmas/New Year .... ) and lets help the Russians on the Pukhet front .

Blame the French? Putin handed Gerard Depardieu a Russian Passport already so there's nobody to blame anymore.

Next Thai problem please!

Edited January 7, 2013 by LaoPo

[webfact]

related topic

Yellow-shirt group will rally to press Pheu Thai govt to reject any negative temple ruling

Full story:

[GoodThaiGirl]

Because this is my home this is my country and as I have tried many other ways this is the best way to TALK with the GOV who never even try to listen to their own people.

You guys expats are lucky (may be) that you come from some countries that GOV give opportunity to TALK and express idea fairly and honestly rule the countries.

This is the only way for us here I am afraid because I've heard a lot of ppl. talk, suggest, discuss .... no one really honestly DO it like PAD.

See you on the street. My dear PAD friends.

Let's kick the GOV ass again. I am never tired of it and I will be very proud of myself to die that way.

[whybother]

Because this is my home this is my country and as I have tried many other ways this is the best way to TALK with the GOV who never even try to listen to their own people.

You guys expats are lucky (may be) that you come from some countries that GOV give opportunity to TALK and express idea fairly and honestly rule the countries.

This is the only way for us here I am afraid because I've heard a lot of ppl. talk, suggest, discuss .... no one really honestly DO it like PAD.

See you on the street. My dear PAD friends.

Let's kick the GOV ass again. I am never tired of it and I will be very proud of myself to die that way.

What do you expect the government to do if the ICJ rules against them?

[LaoPo]

Because this is my home this is my country and as I have tried many other ways this is the best way to TALK with the GOV who never even try to listen to their own people.

You guys expats are lucky (may be) that you come from some countries that GOV give opportunity to TALK and express idea fairly and honestly rule the countries.

This is the only way for us here I am afraid because I've heard a lot of ppl. talk, suggest, discuss .... no one really honestly DO it like PAD.

See you on the street. My dear PAD friends.

Let's kick the GOV ass again. I am never tired of it and I will be very proud of myself to die that way.

What do you expect the government to do if the ICJ rules against them?

I'm interested in that answer also, although I fear that the Lady poster GoodThaiGirl will listen to the PAD rather than the independent Judgment by the International Court of Justice in The Hague.

@GoodThaiGirl: Both countries: Thailand and Cambodia are members of the International Court of Justice and being so, they both have to accept the Judgment by the ICJ.

That the PAD now already calls: "Yellow-shirt group will rally to press Pheu Thai govt to reject any negative temple ruling" shows that the PAD has no respect for the eventual outcome of the ICJ, one way or another.

To blindly follow the PAD it shows that the demonstrators have no clear insight in the conflict but only listen to the PAD, no matter if it is correct what the PAD claims, or not.

That GoodThaiGirl writes she is even prepared to die during the demonstration shows how dangerous the ideas of the PAD are

My advise to GoodThaiGirl is that she should think a few more times before giving her life to the ideas of PAD!

Life is too precious to give up your life for a conflict between 2 countries.

If you would read a little more about many conflict cases, here is the link to the ICJ:

http://en.wikipedia....ourt_of_Justice

http://th.wikipedia....ระเทศ (in Thai; I hope the link works)

Edited January 7, 2013 by LaoPo

[Thait Spot]

One thing sticks out like a sore thumb in all these threads involving the PAD and that's the complete lack of support from the expats.

The red underpants brigade on must surely be wrong

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect App

[Sunderland]

Is it truly worth dying over a piece of land that nobody really cared about 10 years ago?

Demonstrate, protest, discuss and argue all you want if it makes your life more meaningful, but frankly wanting to die for the PAD's causes shows lack of insight into why people are born in the first place.

[Thait Spot]

Is it truly worth dying over a piece of land that nobody really cared about 10 years ago?

Demonstrate, protest, discuss and argue all you want if it makes your life more meaningful, but frankly wanting to die for the PAD's causes shows lack of insight into why people are born in the first place.

They should settle it the honourable way - a game of football between the parliaments. Winner takes all

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect App

[Thai at Heart]

Is it truly worth dying over a piece of land that nobody really cared about 10 years ago?

Demonstrate, protest, discuss and argue all you want if it makes your life more meaningful, but frankly wanting to die for the PAD's causes shows lack of insight into why people are born in the first place.

They should settle it the honourable way - a game of football between the parliaments. Winner takes all

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect App

The pad would claim it was fixed....

[Moruya]

One thing sticks out like a sore thumb in all these threads involving the PAD and that's the complete lack of support from the expats.

The red underpants brigade on must surely be wrong

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect App

Indeed. Where are all the mythical forum yellows?

[Tatsujin]

Indeed. Where are all the mythical forum yellows?

According to some, I'm one of them . . . allegedly . . .

[Tatsujin]

They should settle it the honourable way - a game of football between the parliaments. Winner takes all

Pistols at dawn would be my preferred choice . . . except they tried that already in 2010 . . . got to keep your head down and keep moving or the snipers get you . . .

[Moruya]

Indeed. Where are all the mythical forum yellows?

According to some, I'm one of them . . . allegedly . . .

Me too.

[Tatsujin]

Indeed. Where are all the mythical forum yellows?

According to some, I'm one of them . . . allegedly . . .

Me too.

Yeah I remember, but in your case, they'd be right (kidding)

[bigbamboo]

Because this is my home this is my country and as I have tried many other ways this is the best way to TALK with the GOV who never even try to listen to their own people.

You guys expats are lucky (may be) that you come from some countries that GOV give opportunity to TALK and express idea fairly and honestly rule the countries.

This is the only way for us here I am afraid because I've heard a lot of ppl. talk, suggest, discuss .... no one really honestly DO it like PAD.

See you on the street. My dear PAD friends.

Let's kick the GOV ass again. I am never tired of it and I will be very proud of myself to die that way.

What do you expect the government to do if the ICJ rules against them?

Blame Abhisit...?

[Moruya]

Indeed. Where are all the mythical forum yellows?

According to some, I'm one of them . . . allegedly . . .

Me too.

Yeah I remember, but in your case, they'd be right (kidding)

I can't see how anyone sane could agree with red or yellow

[bigbamboo]

Is it truly worth dying over a piece of land that nobody really cared about 10 years ago?

Demonstrate, protest, discuss and argue all you want if it makes your life more meaningful, but frankly wanting to die for the PAD's causes shows lack of insight into why people are born in the first place.

They should settle it the honourable way - a game of football between the parliaments. Winner takes all

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect App

The pad would claim it was fixed....

And they'd probably be right!

Edited January 7, 2013 by bigbamboo

[backtonormal]

Because this is my home this is my country and as I have tried many other ways this is the best way to TALK with the GOV who never even try to listen to their own people.

You guys expats are lucky (may be) that you come from some countries that GOV give opportunity to TALK and express idea fairly and honestly rule the countries.

This is the only way for us here I am afraid because I've heard a lot of ppl. talk, suggest, discuss .... no one really honestly DO it like PAD.

See you on the street. My dear PAD friends.

Let's kick the GOV ass again. I am never tired of it and I will be very proud of myself to die that way.

Just before the last election the army without official orders from the Dem Government started a conflict with the hope of stalling an election an an inevitable result. It was the Cambodians that invited the Indonesian observers but the Thai army did nt want it. Now they want to rect an International Court ruling and plan to hold a mass rally before the decision is made in April.

Pad is about one thing get the army on the streets and overthrow a democratically elected Government. As Siam Pitak found out, you try to go somewhere you dont have a permit for and we will stop you with whatever force is necessary. The army will not leave the barracks to prop up these facists.

The telephone call that gets the army on the street has been cut most probably with mention of LM charges for those in attendance with the American Ambassador

Edited January 7, 2013 by backtonormal

[backtonormal]

One thing sticks out like a sore thumb in all these threads involving the PAD and that's the complete lack of support from the expats.

The red underpants brigade on must surely be wrong

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect App

Indeed. Where are all the mythical forum yellows?

I have noticed recently since things have started to go against them that this forum is turning, not pro red but pro government. We wont mention there names they know who they are.