Smoke, Smog, Dust 2013 Chiang Mai

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Yes I do have a solution for air quality in the interim before burning near and far can be reduced.

Cities in the north need to install misting sprinklers in populated zones around to bind to the particulate matter and clean the air for breathing.

There is plenty of water and cheap labor to install the misters. Call it artificial rain or whatever. It would work to mitigate the health effects and quality of life in populated areas.

I am glad to hear it even if I do not know the viability of it.

I would suggest not keeping it to yourself but offering it to them

You never know

I noticed this when I walk near the fountains at various parts of the moat. The air is noticeably clearer and fresher.

It could start as pilot or test program. install misters along Loy Kroh road or in areas of the Thapae walking market streets.

It could then be added to common routes like Huay Kaew road. This would allow walkers, bicyclists etc to choose the misted route over other routes to avoid the bad air.

Condo/apt buildings could be required to install misters on the roof. Outdoor markets and other outdoor venues like Night Market. universities, restaurants etc.

This would at a least give locals the option of locating in low health damage areas.

The main barriers to this are that many locals have been beaten into submission about the hazards of complaining and importantly corrupt leaders will find a way to get rich while providing little of the benefits.

Much of this hinges on awareness and some sort of balance of power to restrain rampant corruption.

[Mapguy]

. . . On the other hand, looking at recent pollution reports from China, the industrial areas (particularly to the far north and northeast) did damn near choke to death in January due to seasonal atmospheric conditions, but the prevailing winds were headed for Thailand, as I recall. . . .

Did you not mean Japan, rather than Thailand?

Thanks for picking up on this! Actually, I made a typo; rather: "but the prevailing winds were NOT [italicised caps just to point out the error] headed for Thailand, as I recall." I don't know about Japan. The winter winds far north of us, I believe, are W/NW winds --- and often quite strong when they blow. The NE trade winds come off the China Sea, some crossing southern China. I am not sure about their seasonality, and latitude makes a difference.

There is more to it than that, of course, but consider that the record-setting brutal January pollution in N/NE China doesn't seem to have been reflected in the PM<10 stats, and that local (Northern and Central Thai) conditions appear to have much, much more to do with our seasonal air pollution.

But I'd still like to have a meteorologist on board!

[siamamerican]

I'm out of the mess now but as I stated to deaf ears, the burning is horrendous but the bulk of the problem is the non-burning activities.. The PM measuring device are 5-10 meters of the roads. For those of you that walk and drive scooters on the roads the measurements are 50-200 points off a reality. The reason I care is because I am one of those on roads and inhale incredibly unhealthy levels of pollutants 24x7x 12 months a year. Assume, in the 400+ range when one of the hundreds of dirty trucks are in the vicinity

I hate the burning also but the real problem is the autos. If I avoid the roads, I never get sick in the worst of the burning. A couple days driving extensively in traffic will result in a short term or long term hospital visit.

[MESmith]

I'm out of the mess now but as I stated to deaf ears, the burning is horrendous but the bulk of the problem is the non-burning activities.. The PM measuring device are 5-10 meters of the roads. For those of you that walk and drive scooters on the roads the measurements are 50-200 points off a reality. The reason I care is because I am one of those on roads and inhale incredibly unhealthy levels of pollutants 24x7x 12 months a year. Assume, in the 400+ range when one of the hundreds of dirty trucks are in the vicinity

I hate the burning also but the real problem is the autos. If I avoid the roads, I never get sick in the worst of the burning. A couple days driving extensively in traffic will result in a short term or long term hospital visit.

Wrong!! The one at City Hall is much further away from the road, surrounded by buildings & trees, & looks like it's on top of a very tall mast

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

I'm out of the mess now but as I stated to deaf ears, the burning is horrendous but the bulk of the problem is the non-burning activities.. The PM measuring device are 5-10 meters of the roads. For those of you that walk and drive scooters on the roads the measurements are 50-200 points off a reality. The reason I care is because I am one of those on roads and inhale incredibly unhealthy levels of pollutants 24x7x 12 months a year. Assume, in the 400+ range when one of the hundreds of dirty trucks are in the vicinity

I hate the burning also but the real problem is the autos. If I avoid the roads, I never get sick in the worst of the burning. A couple days driving extensively in traffic will result in a short term or long term hospital visit.

Wrong!! The one at City Hall is much further away from the road, surrounded by buildings & trees, & looks like it's on top of a very tall mast

same for the one in the city.. its up high and near a minor road.

surely the real world particulates on major roads are much much higher

[MESmith]

I'm out of the mess now but as I stated to deaf ears, the burning is horrendous but the bulk of the problem is the non-burning activities.. The PM measuring device are 5-10 meters of the roads. For those of you that walk and drive scooters on the roads the measurements are 50-200 points off a reality. The reason I care is because I am one of those on roads and inhale incredibly unhealthy levels of pollutants 24x7x 12 months a year. Assume, in the 400+ range when one of the hundreds of dirty trucks are in the vicinity

I hate the burning also but the real problem is the autos. If I avoid the roads, I never get sick in the worst of the burning. A couple days driving extensively in traffic will result in a short term or long term hospital visit.

Wrong!! The one at City Hall is much further away from the road, surrounded by buildings & trees, & looks like it's on top of a very tall mast

same for the one in the city.. its up high and near a minor road.

surely the real world particulates on major roads are much much higher

Shhhh

[Mapguy]

The previous posts are a tad nasty!

Yes, "spot" measurements are restricted to the location of the devices. No surprise there. It does indeed depend on where you are! If you are choking on the diesel fumes of an old songtao at a traffic signal, you indeed have an experience very different from someone enjoying the view on the summit of Doi Inthanon. Both locations are in the province of Chiang Mai.

There are only two regularly reporting monitoring locations in the province, the one at "City Hall" and the one at Yuparaj School. The third is at Phuping Palace, the royal upcountry "summer residence." The readings there, at a relatively high elevation, are generally quite pleasant compared with the readings on the plain below. Surprise! Surprise! --- given the elevation and the geomorphic nature (We are in a basin where shitty air gets trapped without adequate clearing winds or rain.) I have heard that Phuping is a mobile unit that sometimes goes to other locations, but I am not certain about that.

One of the silliest generalizations that I have ever heard about the validity of pollution readings for Chiang Mai came last year from our then TV CM resident stickler for rigorous scientific and statistical methods who stated his belief [italics, mine] that two regularly reported monitoring stations located in or around Chiang Mai City were adequate in generalizing about an entire large province! I found that very, very funny, especially given the sniffy source. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the shit covers the whole basin. You don't have to place monitoring stations every 500M, as they do in Beijing to see what is going on!! (I do, however, agree with him!!)

So, don't worry about the specific comparative placement of the only two monitoring stations in the whole province! If anything, over time, you will discover, looking at archival data, that the Yuparaj readings tend higher than the other station's readings. But the difference really doesn't add up to the length of an ant's pecker.

Anyway, for quite a few years now, this TV CM outlet has allowed all of us to vent!! It is a seasonal privilege! So vent, but, also, why not do a bit more? In little ways, even if it seems you are pissing into the wind. The situation here and now is really no different historically from the vaunted countries with developed agricultural economies from which most of us appear to hail.

Edited March 16, 2013 by Mapguy

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

The previous posts are a tad nasty!

Nasty to what or who? To the location of the AQ sensor station?

Your offended for the reputation of the air quality sensor equipment and or it's location?

or who/what exactly?

[Mapguy]

The previous posts are a tad nasty!

Nasty to what or who? To the location of the AQ sensor station?

Your offended for the reputation of the air quality sensor equipment and or it's location?

or who/what exactly?

Relax!

[driedmango]

The previous posts are a tad nasty!

Yes, "spot" measurements are restricted to the location of the devices. No surprise there. It does indeed depend on where you are! If you are choking on the diesel fumes of an old songtao at a traffic signal, you indeed have an experience very different from someone enjoying the view on the summit of Doi Inthanon. Both locations are in the province of Chiang Mai.

There are only two regularly reporting monitoring locations in the province, the one at "City Hall" and the one at Yuparaj School. The third is at Phuping Palace, the royal upcountry "summer residence." The readings there, at a relatively high elevation, are generally quite pleasant compared with the readings on the plain below. Surprise! Surprise! --- given the elevation and the geomorphic nature (We are in a basin where shitty air gets trapped without adequate clearing winds or rain.) I have heard that Phuping is a mobile unit that sometimes goes to other locations, but I am not certain about that.

One of the silliest generalizations that I have ever heard about the validity of pollution readings for Chiang Mai came last year from our then TV CM resident stickler for rigorous scientific and statistical methods who stated his belief [italics, mine] that two regularly reported monitoring stations located in or around Chiang Mai City were adequate in generalizing about an entire large province! I found that very, very funny, especially given the sniffy source. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the shit covers the whole basin. You don't have to place monitoring stations every 500M, as they do in Beijing to see what is going on!! (I do, however, agree with him!!)

So, don't worry about the specific comparative placement of the only two monitoring stations in the whole province! If anything, over time, you will discover, looking at archival data, that the Yuparaj readings tend higher than the other station's readings. But the difference really doesn't add up to the length of an ant's pecker.

Anyway, for quite a few years now, this TV CM outlet has allowed all of us to vent!! It is a seasonal privilege! So vent, but, also, why not do a bit more? In little ways, even if it seems you are pissing into the wind. The situation here and now is really no different historically from the vaunted countries with developed agricultural economies from which most of us appear to hail.

it is though the population on the planet has double from 1990 pollution has x10 from the old days before that.

[driedmango]

My hosts, the people of Thailand, are well within their rights to tell me to get on my bike and go fix my own country.all sorts of Thais in my country..its their country to.. the earth and air is for all.Yes of course Mother Earth type catch phrases sound nice but,What LemanRus is describing is reality.The Thais you say that are in "your" country would have no more pullat telling "your" country to stop doing something that they surelydo which is not considered healthy.The western countries have been doing harm in many ways for decades. They know it yet it continueswhy? Because sometimes an immediate alternative does not exist.Sad but true.Yes we all dislike what we see in the air.

yes they do they work to change what ever they want and we applaud that freedom. Nobody owns this planet we all live a blink of an eye an the idea someone owns the earth is dellusions. If I am standing on a place I am there, I follow the laws out of respect but the birds or whales they migrate the world knowing it is one unit.

[driedmango]

well first of all you just shifted "rationalization" to "realization" using semanticsYour realization of it being "complex" is just another version of "there is nothing we can really do about it"The most troubling problem with the blind spots of Thai society is that most citizens/voters etc don't even know there is a problem.The first step of solving a problem is the realization that it is a problem.Believe me I don't want or think Thai society should or even could change.The most disturbing theme of my view is that Thai society is incapable of positive change and refinement.I guess that makes me a racist or elitest looking down on the low potential primitive masses.But I do not think a problem being complex means theywill never find an alternative or solution.That the Thai's at this time do not have a viable solutiondoes not automatically suggest there never will be one.How many decades had the West been warned about the ozone & theirgas guzzling SUV driving ways? Out of sight out of mind? Did they just Stop That?No it took decades & none can say it is really under control still can they?I think you will find USA still in #2 position behind China as the worst offender of Co2 emissionsDoes that make them "incapable of positive change and refinement" as you say of the Thai's?I think most Thai's do know there is a problem.I do not think Thai society is incapable of positive change and refinement.I imagine I would not live here if I held them in such low esteem.Is there a problem? Yes 101% I agreeCan they just Stop That as a solution? No for many reasons mentioned.Do you have any viable solutions or ideas?

yes people complain about the west pollution where you been ? Thailand is completely about to make positive changes, more so because they are a resorseful and youthful country not stuck in their habits like the aging west, where ignorance rules.

[driedmango]

After my previous posts I decided to look into the travel distances of PM10 & PM2.5. These are the facts.

Relatively large particles (PM10) generally remain suspended in the air

for short periods of time (minutes or hours). PM10 particles can travel

as little as a hundred yards or as much as 30 miles. In contrast,

because smaller particles are lighter, PM2.5 can remain suspended in the

air for days or weeks, and can travel hundreds of miles before settling

out.

Source

There is more than size that is different in these types of particles.

Each type of particle has different material compositions and can come

from different places. The smaller the particle the longer it can remain

suspended in the air before settling. PM2.5 can stay in the air from

hours to weeks and travel very long distances because it is smaller and

lighter. PM10 can stay in the air for minutes to hours and can travel

shorter distances from hundreds of yards to many mile because it is

larger and heavier.

Source

In other words, it is possible for the worse particles PM<2.5 to reach us from China.

yes there has been tests in California to prove air pollution takes 4 days from china to Seattle, much of the haze in Vancouver comes from japan and china, not to say pollution from there doesnt go other places LA to mexico.. just the currents.. there is no sample if the earths surface that is pollution free.. the world us pretty small, you can drive around a quarter of it in 3 days

[T_Dog]

I see the levels in Chiang Mai finally went into the red today. Quite bad in Mae Taeng this morning and not a good day to be exercising. Hopefully the winds will come and clean things out.

[cloudhopper]

Worst morning of the season so far in Pai today - viz about 250m and strong smoke smell.

[jko]

Much about this has been written already, and there is probably much more well-intentioned comment still to follow.

Bottom line is that a few thousand (maybe only a few hundred) selfish people chose to burn in total defiance of the "government ban" -- in doing so, they put millions of people at risk from respiratory diseases, and cancer, not to mention the day and night discomfort of living in, and breathing filthy air.

Given the ruthless efficiency of other departments, particularly Revenue and Immigration (wherein few would dare to transgress) there is clearly nothing wrong with the government's ability to enforce very strict laws and penalties - if it wants to.

The logical conclusion therefore is that there is apparently no political will to solve this, and there probably never will be. The poisonous smoke will go away in a few weeks and all will go back to normal.

-It will inevitably be back again next year, and this forum refilled.

Perhaps in a decade or so, when provincial hospitals are filled with patients suffering from deadly lung cancer, something may happen. Until then, what to do?

Like those who choose to 'escape' from Songkran, probably the only remedy is to leave the country - until the madness is over.

Edited March 17, 2013 by jko

[mania]

Quite bad in Mae Taeng this morning and not a good day to be exercising.

That is what I thought yesterday so did not go out & exercise

Today in CM I went & it was of course not great but for me not

as bad as staying indoors all day.

[T_Dog]

jko... I doubt anything will change either, but at least we can keep up to date here on TV on the latest conditions. Regarding your comment about defiance and the numbers, I would say that within 10 km of where I live, there are hundreds of people that set fires in the mountains. They are definitely not feeling defiant, but rather doing what they always have and probably always will.

[T_Dog]

Worst morning of the season so far in Pai today - viz about 250m and strong smoke smell.

Guess that will be rolling downhill to us by this evening. Our visibility is a bit over a kilometer. 250 meters is very bad.

[dave2]

re

Worst morning of the season so far in Pai today

chiang mais not too good either : (

pic taken 5 mins ago

dave2

[kimincm]

Hoping for rain like everybody else but this is what's dropping out of the sky today,3klms.south of Mae Rim.

Standard exercise book for size.

[Mapguy]

If you missed Tywais' Post 150 (on page 6), it is definitely worth going back and checking out the sources of information that he provides. The one from San Francisco is really an excellent readable summary of the problem with airborne PM. The other, from a manufacturer of air quality monitoring equipment, also has useful information on the effectiveness of air filters (which subject hasn't really been featured yet) in this year's discussion).

And to carry on further, here is a research report on the impact of fine particulate air pollution on life expectancy:

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmsa0805646#t=articleDiscussion

[mania]

And to carry on further, here is a research report on the impact of fine particulate air pollution on life expectancy:

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmsa0805646#t=articleDiscussion

From your link

On the basis of the average reduction in the PM2.5 concentration (6.52 μg per cubic meter) in the metropolitan areas included in this analysis and the effect estimate from model 4 in Table 2, the average increase in life expectancy attributable to the reduced levels of air pollution was approximately 0.4 year.....

In metropolitan areas where reductions in PM2.5 were 13 to 14 μg per cubic meter, the contribution of improvements in air quality to increases in life expectancy may have been as much as 0.82 year

Edited March 17, 2013 by mania

[RED21]

I see the levels in Chiang Mai finally went into the red today. Quite bad in Mae Taeng this morning and not a good day to be exercising. Hopefully the winds will come and clean things out.

Damn... this does not bode well for us living there. I did see the hillsides near Muangkhen burning last Friday as I left for home in the evening. There's been that distinct smell of ash for a few days and more after the rains stopped.

Edited March 17, 2013 by RED21

[puukao]

Remember, the smoke can trigger many allergic reactions. I got some Zyrtec today from the hospital, and it seems to help. I also wear a facemask all the time; still waiting for someone to ask "Why?" Protect yourself out there......I am afraid long-term exposure to air contaminants can have very serious health ramifications.

Anyone know the facts on reported lung cancer in northern Thailand?

anyhow, be safe.....I think wearing a facemask makes sense, but you are your own boss and I will not infringe on your freedom to wear, or not wear, whatever you want. take care.

[Rasseru]

'Anyone know the facts on reported lung cancer in northern Thailand?'

I do not, puukao, but I do remember that someone in the last few years offered up on an earlier thread like this a well-written and seemingly well-researched post that, on the subject of lung cancer in northern Thailand, reported that the average incidence of lung cancer in the region (which is somewhat high I as I recall), was a misleading number, in terms of any conclusions that one might want to draw from it about the effect on lung cancer of the smokey air here at this time of year. The reason being that the average incidence of lung cancer in the region is a result of the inclusion in the average of some very high hot spots in some local places, which places are not unusual in terms of their exposure to the smokey air, indicating that there is some other cause behind the local hot spots. As I recall from that post, If those hot spots are excluded from the numbers, the incidence of lung cancer in northern Thailand is not high.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Remember, the smoke can trigger many allergic reactions. I got some Zyrtec today from the hospital, and it seems to help. I also wear a facemask all the time; still waiting for someone to ask "Why?" Protect yourself out there......I am afraid long-term exposure to air contaminants can have very serious health ramifications.

Note that you can get generic Zyrtec at any pharmacy, rather cheaply. (Cetirizine)

BTW this still ranks as a very good year(*). I didn't see Chiang Mai go into the red yet (>120 average daily value), which is very encouraging. It may still happen of course in the next week or two. Mae Hong Son is showing very high values today.

(*)No, that does not mean that nothing is wrong, or that I'm happy with the current state of affairs. I'm the one who left Chiang Mai just in case. But I personally find it 'encouraging' that the situation is improving over time.

Edited March 17, 2013 by WinnieTheKhwai

[djrm]

Hey everyone, first post here so go easy Planning my second trip to Thailand arriving for one month on 3rd April. After two nights in Bangkok is was thinking about heading up to Mai or Rai but after reading so much about the smog I just don't know what to do!! When i came around the same time 11 years ago to Chiang Mai I didn't recall the smog at all (could be my bad memory) but seems to be a factor this time.

You think it's still worth it or should I just not bother?

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Almost all years, early April is fine. Also, even when it's quite bad, many people don't even notice it.

There is actually a good chance that Bangkok will have worse air around that time, yet you never hear people about that. This forum is very vocal on the issue.

I'd make the decision closer to that time, and then decide if you want to go North or South.

Personally I'm planning to be back in Chiang Mai around that same time.

[djrm]

Almost all years, early April is fine. Also, even when it's quite bad, many people don't even notice it.

There is actually a good chance that Bangkok will have worse air around that time, yet you never hear people about that. This forum is very vocal on the issue.

I'd make the decision closer to that time, and then decide if you want to go North or South.

Personally I'm planning to be back in Chiang Mai around that same time.

Lovely, thanks for that! Other option is to go up north the last few days of the month so end of April and go down south first. Hmmmm decisions.