Paying For Land 1Pm Today

[Khun Jean]

That's what a usufruct is, a right to work or mine land. Nothing to do with habitation. If you have one on some land you can farm it ergo no need for a WP.

You can't cherry pick bits here and there, it either is or is not. Jim

Jim, It is seriously time to get rid of that lawyer of yours!

[jamescollister]

That's what a usufruct is, a right to work or mine land. Nothing to do with habitation. If you have one on some land you can farm it ergo no need for a WP.

You can't cherry pick bits here and there, it either is or is not. Jim

Jim, It is seriously time to get rid of that lawyer of yours!

Khun Jean we could go round and round in circles all day.

Well put little more here.

Definition

Usufruct is a right of enjoyment, enabling a holder to derive profit or benefit from property that either is titled to another person or which is held in common ownership, as long as the property is not damaged or destroyed.

Profit is making money using the land, if you have this right why would you need a work permit to farm it or run a bar or resort.

On another point immovable objects. Can't find the Thai legal definition, but as these laws a copies of french law. A house or building is not classed as an immovable object. Very easy to move with a bulldozer. Jim

[Khun Jean]

It is a right to someone elses property. It does not give you a right to work.

Don't mix things that are not mixable.

Having a usufruct is defined and stays within the boundaries of that usufruct. You can use the 'fruits' made possible by using that land. 'Fruits' can be anything that is of benefit to you.

As you said Profit OR benefit. Can be both or one of those. Living for free on it is a benefit.

I sincerely hope you have a workpermit, otherwise i see deportation, large fines and blacklisting in your future, unless you only own the shares of the company and not do any managing or other work.

There are no circles, only open ends and dead ends, and you are on one of the dead ends i am sorry to say.

I hope you did not get your advice form some refugee from Canada that is on the run for a murder case and setup shop in Isaan to be a lawyer?

Edited January 17, 2013 by Khun Jean

[jbrain]

That's what a usufruct is, a right to work or mine land. Nothing to do with habitation. If you have one on some land you can farm it ergo no need for a WP.

You can't cherry pick bits here and there, it either is or is not. Jim

Jim, It is seriously time to get rid of that lawyer of yours!

Khun Jean we could go round and round in circles all day.

Well put little more here.

Definition

Usufruct is a right of enjoyment, enabling a holder to derive profit or benefit from property that either is titled to another person or which is held in common ownership, as long as the property is not damaged or destroyed.

Profit is making money using the land, if you have this right why would you need a work permit to farm it or run a bar or resort.

On another point immovable objects. Can't find the Thai legal definition, but as these laws a copies of french law. A house or building is not classed as an immovable object. Very easy to move with a bulldozer. Jim

An usufruct is always registered on a piece of land, hence it is done at the land office who have nothing to do with the building on the land.

But if you have an usufruct on a piece of land with a house on it, it's evident tthat you can use the house as well.

It is however not so evident that because use have the right to use a piece of land, that you don't need a workpermit to exploit it.

Edited January 17, 2013 by jbrain

[oldsailor35]

Mark

Have over 100 rai of rubber and a limited partnership company, rubber factory. Factory set up by a real business accountancy firm, through the small medium enterprise department.

Enough permits and certificates to choke a elephant, EPA, health and safety etc. Reality if things went wrong I would get what the wife gives me, have 2 kids and been married a long time.

As an non Thai you can not own or control land, unless through a BOI lease. All other schemes breach Thai law, some criminal law and you could end up in jail.

You can Google my name and rubber/Thailand/ Issan, I will pop up. Jim

I know who you are Jim I emailed you back in 2006 before we got our rubber trees and you gave me some good advice, the trees have gone well and we are now getting a wage out of them but that is a different story, like I said I know a guy who a few months ago split with his long term girlfriend and is now in the house and is covered to be there till he dies.

I do not know if that is against the law or not but it appears to be legal as I know a few people who have done it and it is all legal and above board through the land office. If it was illegal why does it get added to the chanote in the land office?

I am getting off track my major reasoning is the insurance in case something happens to my wife again there are posters on here who have gone through this and it has been held up that they are allowed to stay in the property until they die which is inline with the usefruct, I happen to believe them and you do not have to search hard to find the item as it was not long ago

Like I said Jim I don't want to get into a pissing contest with you but I guess we will have to disagree and just hope neither of us have to put it to the test...have a good one

But i am led to believe that it is illegal for a farang to give his wife or gf money to buy land and this can be confiscated if the appropriate authorities find out. PLEASE correct me if i have been mislead and am wrong !

[oldsailor35]

It is a right to someone elses property. It does not give you a right to work.

Don't mix things that are not mixable.

Having a usufruct is defined and stays within the boundaries of that usufruct. You can use the 'fruits' made possible by using that land. 'Fruits' can be anything that is of benefit to you.

As you said Profit OR benefit. Can be both or one of those. Living for free on it is a benefit.

I sincerely hope you have a workpermit, otherwise i see deportation, large fines and blacklisting in your future, unless you only own the shares of the company and not do any managing or other work.

There are no circles, only open ends and dead ends, and you are on one of the dead ends i am sorry to say.

I hope you did not get your advice form some refugee from Canada that is on the run for a murder case and setup shop in Isaan to be a lawyer?

OMG Jim this looks like they are going to "catch up with you" after all those years of hard work. This is so sad .

[Khun Jean]

It is forbidden to use a nominee.

It is not forbidden to gift money to someone and that someone decides to buy land for it.

In case you are married with the one buying the land, you then also sign a piece of paper at the land office to confirm that you understand that you have absolutely no right of ownership of the land. That paper makes it official, it is your wifes money that is used and the land is your wifes.

If you at the same time ask for a usufruct, they might get suspicious, but if you declare that it is only for your security in the case your wife dies it is ok. (That is the only worth of a usufruct with your spouse anyway).

The landoffice wil explain to your wife what it entails, so she also can make the decision to continue.

When everything is signed there is agreement between the land office, your wife and you and there are no misunderstandings what everyone's rights are.

The process seems very clear to me.

[Khun Jean]

It is a right to someone elses property. It does not give you a right to work.

.....

OMG Jim this looks like they are going to "catch up with you" after all those years of hard work. This is so sad .

Well it really would be a shame that so much work would lead to a possible disaster because of a legality that is easily avoidable. In Thailand you get a lot of leeway until you don't.

Jim, all the best to you, but really get your stuff in order? And don't take a lawyers word for granted, use it as a start for your own research.

[jbrain]

Mark

Have over 100 rai of rubber and a limited partnership company, rubber factory. Factory set up by a real business accountancy firm, through the small medium enterprise department.

Enough permits and certificates to choke a elephant, EPA, health and safety etc. Reality if things went wrong I would get what the wife gives me, have 2 kids and been married a long time.

As an non Thai you can not own or control land, unless through a BOI lease. All other schemes breach Thai law, some criminal law and you could end up in jail.

You can Google my name and rubber/Thailand/ Issan, I will pop up. Jim

I know who you are Jim I emailed you back in 2006 before we got our rubber trees and you gave me some good advice, the trees have gone well and we are now getting a wage out of them but that is a different story, like I said I know a guy who a few months ago split with his long term girlfriend and is now in the house and is covered to be there till he dies.

I do not know if that is against the law or not but it appears to be legal as I know a few people who have done it and it is all legal and above board through the land office. If it was illegal why does it get added to the chanote in the land office?

I am getting off track my major reasoning is the insurance in case something happens to my wife again there are posters on here who have gone through this and it has been held up that they are allowed to stay in the property until they die which is inline with the usefruct, I happen to believe them and you do not have to search hard to find the item as it was not long ago

Like I said Jim I don't want to get into a pissing contest with you but I guess we will have to disagree and just hope neither of us have to put it to the test...have a good one

But i am led to believe that it is illegal for a farang to give his wife or gf money to buy land and this can be confiscated if the appropriate authorities find out. PLEASE correct me if i have been mislead and am wrong !

Yes you are mislead.

The foreigner can give the wife as nuch money as he likes and she can buy houses with it as many as she like, but the foreigner has to sign a document where he declares that it is her money.

[sutton1001]

Wow my thread and nobody wants to help answer my question.

Please guys. Can you help me point my local land office as to why I am requesting?! Please!

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[rgs2001uk]

Wow my thread and nobody wants to help answer my question.

Please guys. Can you help me point my local land office as to why I am requesting?! Please!

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

This is what you want,

สิทธิเก็บกิน sit ti gep gin , details here,

http://th.wikipedia....็บà¸à¸´à¸™

Heres a better site,

http://www.koratlawyers.com/en/legal-information/usufruct-thailand.html

If you click on the flags you have it in Thai for you to print off, or in English for you to read.

Edited January 17, 2013 by rgs2001uk

[jamescollister]

OP try this form, land department will probably understand.

Memorandum For the Usufruct (for a period of lifetime)

บันทึกข้อตกลงเรื่องสิทธิเก็บกิน(ตลอดชีวิต)

Land

ที่ดิน

Grid map

ระวาง

Nong Khang Khok Sub-district

ตำบล หนองข้างคอก

Land number survey page Mueang Chon Buri District

เลขที่ดิน หน้าสำรวจ เมืองชลบุรี

Deed No.

Chon Buri Province

โฉนดเลขที่ จังหวัด ชลบุรี

Chon Buri Provincial Land Office

สำนักงานที่ดินจังหวัดชลบุรี

Date - Month October 2010

วันที่ - เดือน ตุลาคม พ.ศ. 2553

Name

the owner

ข้าพเจ้า

ผู้ถือกรรมสิทธิ์

Mr.____________________-

the Usufructuary

ผู้ทรงสิทธิเก็บกิน

__ years of age ___ Race: Thai , Nationality. Thai Father/Mother Name. Mr.____________- Mrs. _____________

อายุ _____ปี เชื้อชาติ ทย สัญชาติ ไทย

Residence at No. Alley Road Moo.

อยู่ ที่บ้าน/หมู่บ้าน - เลขที่ __ ตรอก/ซอย – ถนน – หมู่ที่ __

ได้ทำบันทึกข้อตกลงต่อเจ้าพนักงาน ที่ดิน ดังต่อไปนี้ :-

Have made this memorandum with the land official as follows:

The above land plot is owned by me, Ms. _____ , hereby consent and grant to Mr. ______________ as the Usufructuary with the right to possess, use and have benefit on the Land for a period of a lifetime of the Usufructuary and I, Mr. ______________ accepts the said right of usufruct from Ms. __________________.

บันทึก ข้อตกลงฉบับนี้ทำขึ้นหนึ่งฉบับ เก็บไว้ ณ สำนักงานที่ดิน ทั้งสองฝ่ายได้ตรวจดูบันทึกข้อตกลง และเข้าใจข้อความตลอดแล้ว จึงลงลายมือชื่อหรือลงลายพิมพ์นิ้วมือไว้เป็นหลักฐานต่อหน้าพยานและเจ้า พนักงานที่ดิน

This memorandum was made for I original copy kept by the Land Office, both parties have examined this memorandum and thoroughly understood all the terms and provisions herein contained then sign their name or make a fingerprints in the presence of witness before the Land Official

Owne

ผู้ถือกรรมสิทธิ์

Signed By _______________________

ลงชื่อ

The Usufructuary

ผู้ทรงสิทธิเก็บกิน

Signed By _______________________

ลงชื่อ

Witness _______________________พยาน

Witness _______________________พยาน

THE LAND OFFICIAL

เจ้าพนักงานที่ดิน

Signed By _______________________

ลงชื่อ

Kun Jean, I foresee no problems in my future regarding our business. It was set up by business accountants through the Thai Government Small Medium Enterprise board. May not be BOI but still national Government. Jim

[sutton1001]

Thank you! Thank you!! Rgs and James

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[sutton1001]

Well we got the land a couple of weeks back. I'm the first farang they have ever had in. Went back today to complete the usufruct. I would not have been able to do it without your help guys as they had no idea what I was going in about. But with the helpful links left by you guys they were able to read on my phone then after consulting various manuals it was done on the three chanote backs for the period of my lifetime. Five hours of my life and 220 baht.

I fly UK on 31st for my last three months in the cold uk then I'm back all in!!!

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[swissie]

Don't waste time or money 1469 of the Thai civil code. Wife of a foreigner can avoid the Usufrunct at any time during marriage, or within 1 year of the divorce.

Wife can just go to the land office and cancel it, end of story.

Trust your wife or don't buy into land in Thailand. Jim

Perfect. Go and buy land and after it's all done, worry about the consequences in the future. Typical Farang-Behaviour. Love makes blind. In this state of denial, it is absolutely pointless to make an effort to talk some sense into a farang that has reached this stage. Especially for farangs that simply can not accept the fact, that the legal-system here can in no way be compared to the legal-system of the country they came from.

Worst of it all: A growing number of Thai-Legal-Firms will not hesitate (for a fee,of course) to assure the farang that everything is performed according to "International-Legal-Standards".

A good sales pitch, but "International-Legal-Standards" (whatever that means) have no relevance in Thailand whatsoever.

Let them stumble, let them fall.

Cheers.

[jamescollister]

Don't waste time or money 1469 of the Thai civil code. Wife of a foreigner can avoid the Usufrunct at any time during marriage, or within 1 year of the divorce.

Wife can just go to the land office and cancel it, end of story.

Trust your wife or don't buy into land in Thailand. Jim

Perfect. Go and buy land and after it's all done, worry about the consequences in the future. Typical Farang-Behaviour. Love makes blind. In this state of denial, it is absolutely pointless to make an effort to talk some sense into a farang that has reached this stage. Especially for farangs that simply can not accept the fact, that the legal-system here can in no way be compared to the legal-system of the country they came from.

Worst of it all: A growing number of Thai-Legal-Firms will not hesitate (for a fee,of course) to assure the farang that everything is performed according to "International-Legal-Standards".

A good sales pitch, but "International-Legal-Standards" (whatever that means) have no relevance in Thailand whatsoever.

Let them stumble, let them fall.

Cheers.

The actual civil code is taken from the French laws and they will stand up for Thais, not for foreigners and worse still is the fact that at a later date it may come back to haunt the foreigner.

Years ago it was the nominee company that was the preferred root. Now the Government has said clearly, anyone caught using this system, will have the house, land confiscated, and they will also be deported.

You can not own or control the use of land in Thailand if you are not Thai. Jim

[TaoNow]

_{@jamescollister}

_{I don't think it is accurate to state "You cannot own or control the use of land in Thailand if you are not Thai."}

My story: My Thai wife died in 2011, without a will. She owned land and a house which we bought 30 years ago.

I am a non-Thai and our two children, who have Thai citizenship, are living in the US.

So I went to the local court and petitioned to become "Administrator of my wife's assets"

My kids had to sign a waiver. The process took about 3 months with a quick interview by the judge.

Then I was approved as administrator of the estate. I took the court order and the land deeds to the local land office in Bangkok.

They added my name to the deeds as "administrator of the estate of [wife's name]". It took about 30 minutes.

They said I could now sell the land in my own name.

Interestingly though, I am not allowed to own/sell the house which sits on the land.

Edited January 30, 2013 by TaoNow

[jamescollister]

_{@jamescollister}

_{I don't think it is accurate to state "You cannot own or control the use of land in Thailand if you are not Thai."}

My story: My Thai wife died in 2011, without a will. She owned land and a house which we bought 30 years ago.

I am a non-Thai and our two children, who have Thai citizenship, are living in the US.

So I went to the local court and petitioned to become "Administrator of my wife's assets"

My kids had to sign a waiver. The process took about 3 months with a quick interview by the judge.

Then I was approved as administrator of the estate. I took the court order and the land deeds to the local land office in Bangkok.

They added my name to the deeds as "administrator of the estate of [wife's name]". It took about 30 minutes.

They said I could now sell the land in my own name.

Interestingly though, I am not allowed to own/sell the house which sits on the land.

Think they may have said you must sell the land, not may sell.

Why didn't you just give it to the kids, they are not going to throw you out, I would hope. Jim

[TaoNow]

James C. Thanks for your response. As a result I hustled over to the Bangkok Noi District land office to enquire about the one-year deadline issue.

The officer said that there was no one-year deadline on my designation as administrator of the estate and, thus, no time limit to sell.

There are two exceptions to this however:

(1) If an immediate family member of the deceased contests the ownership, then there is a one-year time frame to divest. (No one contested -- yet)

(2) If the court issues a new ruling removing me as administrator of the estate.

So I am free to sell at leisure.

And, yes, the property will go to the two kids once they have the time to fly over here and spend some time at the land office. The officer said that is a simple process and does require any other office or court to be involved.

[swissie]

Interestingly though, I am not allowed to own/sell the house which sits on the land.

(2) If the court issues a new ruling removing me as administrator of the estate.

Not to worry, you can always move the house. Just hire a big truck.

Your function as an administrator of the estate can be challenged by a simple registered letter, eighter by your kids or a close family member that can deliver proof positive that he or she has put in a certain amount of labor (or money) into the existing estate and contributed to your well beeing in the past (a new ruling of the court could easily follow such action).

If your kids stand by you, as far as this is concerned, you will be fine, otherwise.................?

Cheers.

[jamescollister]

James C. Thanks for your response. As a result I hustled over to the Bangkok Noi District land office to enquire about the one-year deadline issue.

The officer said that there was no one-year deadline on my designation as administrator of the estate and, thus, no time limit to sell.

There are two exceptions to this however:

(1) If an immediate family member of the deceased contests the ownership, then there is a one-year time frame to divest. (No one contested -- yet)

(2) If the court issues a new ruling removing me as administrator of the estate.

So I am free to sell at leisure.

And, yes, the property will go to the two kids once they have the time to fly over here and spend some time at the land office. The officer said that is a simple process and does uire any other office or court to be involved.

Good guys at the land office and many things are not just done by the letter of the law and the boss has some discretion on what goes on the paper.

General rule you have one year to sell. Not a problem for me, have 2 kids and think I own the farang toilet. maybe Jim

[jamescollister]

Sorry I drink and don't think. Sorry for your loss. Jim