Where Can I Find Fresh, Unpasteurized And Unhomogenized Dairy?

[Rinrada]

The OP didnt actually say he wanted to drink/consume it.....

......maybe for a bath.........some femail from history (Cleo) used it a lot....although in her case that was Asses juice......mpr

[Windhorse]

I asked a milk suppliere about there pasteurizing temp. and i was told 78celsius,that is where al minerals precipitate and it becomes useless for cheese making unless u put them back in chemical form ,what i guess there do.Normal pat temp is 72celsius for 20 sec.Or 60 Celsius for half an hour usually practiced to make cheese.It should say it on the carton if a milk is UHT ,(heated at 120cel.)

i don't think Meiji and others is unless stated.UHT keeps way longer then 3 weeks,but when it goes of then u got the smell.

Where good milk just turns sauer, even pasteurized can turn into something edible when left in the warm for a wile .But not for sure as it is lucking the original flora.

[zeichen]

You are right it probably isn't UHT it is High temp short time. 72celsius for 20 sec isn't normal pasteurizing though it is flashed. Normal is slightly lower and slower.

For cheese it is also raising the temperature incrementally taking more than hour to reach temp not 30 minutes. If you raise it too quickly does more damage to the curd making process than going over temp. I don't have my charts with me but if I remember right it should be about 1-2degrees a minute to bring it up to temperature.

[butterisbetter]

pasteurize or not ..milk has a very lively and strong flora that can take care of most the bad bucks..perhaps not all but there are other dangers in life .You more likely to catch Dengue than get sick from fresh raw milk here in CM

The most suspicious thing is homogenizing ,I read a research 20+ years a go related to homogenizing.... breaking up the fat cells,

Back then there found out that in doing so the blood was more likely to assimilate the broken up fat cells,Fat cells are quiet large and will float,and that da's not look good on the milk and also unhomogenized milk makes a skin when heated.Again lots of people don't like that.

But could homogenizing be a contribution of high cholesterol?? i Am pretty sure it is..'Milk is the nectar for as mammals it can only be perfect if we don't abuse it to much, in manipulating and over eating it

Then lets make the milk look good and long term consequences are ignored.Typical for industries

During pasteurizing the calcium will precipitate as well, there for u get "calcium enriched milk''.Aren't we after the calcium in the milk?

And not the one out of the lab that there ad

I have been a dairy farmer for over 20years and we never pasteurized and never had problems,of coarse it needs the right husbandry with the animals and the adequate hygiene.

I know I sound like I'm shilling for Dacheeso but their milk is not homogenized.

"..of coarse it needs the right husbandry with the animals and the adequate hygiene"

Which is precisely what is at issue here. Again, the cheesemaker who warned me about the raw milk from this place practiced for many years in a European country known for its high standards of hygiene.

[Windhorse]

I know I sound like I'm shilling for Dacheeso but their milk is not homogenized

I believe that ..the machinery is quiet expensive...guess there batch pasteurize..seen a picture ones of them.

The hot weather here is a big problem

..milk likes it cool

[luther]

I started the other thread about milk for cheese.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/660233-milk-to-make-mozarella-cheese/

Went to the dairy outlet today. It's all the way down Huay Kaew. As the road starts to go uphill towards the zoo, if you look right, you will see a billboard with a cow. Make a u-turn and park. You can pull in to their parking lot. Normally, there's an ice-cream vending stand open, but it was closed. Walk slightly uphill 20 meters. You will see what looks like a ticket office. The guy was very friendly and instantly knew what I wanted. We spoke in Thai and English. "Nome dip!" is my best guess at "raw milk" He asked how much. 5 liters is the minimum. You pay, He gives you a carbon copy. You take it up the hill another 20 meters. A guy goes into a walk-in fridge and gives you a bag of milk.

[femi fan]

The best cows' milk to drink is no milk. That is the safest option. Milk is totally unnecessary as part of a person's diet, and there is way too much research and evidence out there now pointing to it being detrimental to one's health, and in fact that it helps cause cancer by overconsuming animal protein, in milk's case, casein.

Drinking cows' milk leeches calcium from one's bones. US is the biggest consumer of milk and the nation with the most osteoporosis. Cows' milk causes calcium problems, it does not help with calcium needs.

Homogenizing milk definitely changes the molecular structure and creates cholesterol and overweight problems. Nobody should drink milk treated in this way.

If one does want to drink cows' milk (and if one consults india's long tradition of drinking it, then it is healthful practice), then buy it raw and boil it before drinking it. Boiling it will kill any unwanted life in the milk, unlike pasteurization which does not take the milk to boiling point, and will make it easier to digest. Then add nutmeg or a suitable spice to help with digestion.

But india's tradition in milk-drinking was not from cows fed crap and foods there were not evolved to eat, kept shackled up during their lives, automatically milked, fed hormones to increase milk production, and antibiotics to cancel out the effects of the hormones. It's why things like madcow disease occurs and why they say they need to pasteurize. Humans if fed and treated in this manner would become mad too. (Oh, hang on, haven't we already got there...?)

Only certain ethnic peoples can digest cows' milk.

All in all, unless one is addicted to the taste better to find alternatives. No other animal drinks the milk of another species.

[femi fan]

I started the other thread about milk for cheese.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/660233-milk-to-make-mozarella-cheese/

Went to the dairy outlet today. It's all the way down Huay Kaew. As the road starts to go uphill towards the zoo, if you look right, you will see a billboard with a cow. Make a u-turn and park. You can pull in to their parking lot. Normally, there's an ice-cream vending stand open, but it was closed. Walk slightly uphill 20 meters. You will see what looks like a ticket office. The guy was very friendly and instantly knew what I wanted. We spoke in Thai and English. "Nome dip!" is my best guess at "raw milk" He asked how much. 5 liters is the minimum. You pay, He gives you a carbon copy. You take it up the hill another 20 meters. A guy goes into a walk-in fridge and gives you a bag of milk.

That's most interesting! Are you able to confirm it's raw milk? Do you know where the cows are, and how they live their lives?

[MESmith]

Plenty of small dairy herds east side of the valley, out around On Tai. I know of 2 dairies that process the milk & distribute in cartons to schools. Most of the herds are small, kept in sheds, fed grass. The dairy I pointed out in Luther's thread is opposite Thai Watsadu on highway 11 & sells "raw milk" to the public.

[uptheos]

All in all, unless one is addicted to the taste better to find alternatives. No other animal drinks the milk of another species.

Cows milk is useful for turning a calf into a 1,000 lb cow in a year.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

All in all, unless one is addicted to the taste better to find alternatives. No other animal drinks the milk of another species.

Cows milk is useful for turning a calf into a 1,000 lb cow in a year.

Another one of those myths that originated before fact checking on the internet.

lots of lower primates in India heist free cow milk right from the udder. I have seen it..

Here is a dog drinking from an cow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOPJMbEyuL4

Can find videos of many mature animals drinking milk from other species.

Monkey's drinking dogs milk etc etc.... lots of examples.

[femi fan]

I wasn't doing any 'fact checking' on the internet. What i've written up there is based on what i've read in more than one decent publication through the old style of books. It also makes intuitive sense. Why is it that humans want to drink cow's milk beyond their infancy anyway?

But i can stand corrected, can't argue with what you've seen, although i'm not sure one can put full faith in pictures on the internet.

Any other comments regarding the rest of what i wrote?

[femi fan]

All in all, unless one is addicted to the taste better to find alternatives. No other animal drinks the milk of another species.

Cows milk is useful for turning a calf into a 1,000 lb cow in a year.

I hope it doesn't turn human babies into this kind of size in that kind of time. Any kind of time for that matter...!

[uptheos]

All in all, unless one is addicted to the taste better to find alternatives. No other animal drinks the milk of another species.

Cows milk is useful for turning a calf into a 1,000 lb cow in a year.

I hope it doesn't turn human babies into this kind of size in that kind of time. Any kind of time for that matter...!

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

I wasn't doing any 'fact checking' on the internet. What i've written up there is based on what i've read in more than one decent publication through the old style of books. It also makes intuitive sense. Why is it that humans want to drink cow's milk beyond their infancy anyway?

But i can stand corrected, can't argue with what you've seen, although i'm not sure one can put full faith in pictures on the internet.

Any other comments regarding the rest of what i wrote?

It hurts my brain when I read people quoting books like 'Diet for a new America'. That was one of the least fact checked books ever and it duped lots of people.

The milk drinking only for certain ethnicities is partly true. About 25% of the world population has sufficient lactase to adequately digest milk sugar (lactose).

It's an evolutionary survival trait that is increasing. A person just has to do some self testing to see if they are one of them. Starting with a small dose and gradually increasing works for a lot of allergy foods like egg, citrus, nightshades etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactase_persistence

Really the animals not drinking others milk is so obvious. If a person has spent any time on a farm or even watched cartoons they know cats just love milk from cows, sheep, goats and I bet they would not turn down human milk.

[MESmith]

All in all, unless one is addicted to the taste better to find alternatives. No other animal drinks the milk of another species.

Cows milk is useful for turning a calf into a 1,000 lb cow in a year.

I hope it doesn't turn human babies into this kind of size in that kind of time. Any kind of time for that matter...!

MaccyD's & the like usually get the blame for that

[femi fan]

It hurts my brain when I read people quoting books like 'Diet for a new America'. That was one of the least fact checked books ever and it duped lots of people.

The milk drinking only for certain ethnicities is partly true. About 25% of the world population has sufficient lactase to adequately digest milk sugar (lactose).

It's an evolutionary survival trait that is increasing. A person just has to do some self testing to see if they are one of them. Starting with a small dose and gradually increasing works for a lot of allergy foods like egg, citrus, nightshades etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactase_persistence

Really the animals not drinking others milk is so obvious. If a person has spent any time on a farm or even watched cartoons they know cats just love milk from cows, sheep, goats and I bet they would not turn down human milk.

Never read that book, nor any like it to my knowledge. You're pushing a lot of assumptions onto me. The main book i was quoting from was pre-internet anyway.

So far you've talked about cats and dogs drinking cows' milk. Both are domesticated animals. I'm not disputing what you say, but you're coming over just as protective of your ideas as many books and internet sites i've seen!

What do you mean it's an evolutionary survival trait? There is so much research and what is offered as evidence out there that suggests milk is killing people, not making them healthier. I did counter that by saying that in india ayurvedic tradition promotes the use of milk, boiled and cooled and drunk with suitable spices to aid digestion. I am sure the milk this old tradition promoted did not come from cows treated in the manner in nearly all western farms. But you're not saying anything about this.

Incidentally, when i was a kid one of our cats died, nearly of old age but definitely before time, of cancer. By the by at the time, what was a kid to know. But donkeys' years later i just wonder why. My mum would always feed it cows' milk twice a day for its entire life. What i've read is very persuasive to the point where i personally accept that too much milk equals too much animal protein consumption equals big likelihood of cancer. What 'too much' means is open to debate. But either way, milk is an acid-forming food and therefore pulls calcium out of the body's reserves to neutralise the digested ash.

I'm most happy to have what i say argued down, i'm merely interested in pursuing understanding and information about what makes for a health diet.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Animals are not the most discerning eaters. Many animals eat their own poop or human trash.

The reasoning is broken about what animals do. A lot of animals kill other animals with their mouths. Often animals starve to death so they will eat anything with calories.

Most any animal would drink milk if it could get it. Like the wild monkey's in India.

'Diet for a New America' spawned a lot of repeats and repeats of many claims including the belief that animals don't drink other animals milk.

The book was released and became popular in 1987. http://www.amazon.com/Diet-New-America-John-Robbins/dp/0915811812

I am fairly dairy intolerant so even the raw stuff is not something I like regularly but a lot of people do well with various forms. Grass fed Ghee/butter is the least problematic for me and maybe yogurts and kefir next best. All due to lower lactose content of each.

Varies a lot by individual even within more dairy tolerant ethnic groups.

Edited August 15, 2013 by CobraSnakeNecktie

[zeichen]

I can show you documented studies in Asia that show the growth rate of Asian cultures, and their bone strength from periods where no milk was used in their diet to when it was. However there is also an overlap in those studies because some of them are from war torn years where members also didn't have other sources of protein either.

Just look at Thailand alone though and you will notice that there are a lot of younger people under 30 that are much taller and physically more developed than the older 70-100 generations.

Though I do agree with some of the research Femi fan has stated a lot of it does read like conspiracy theory and not full scientific fact. Heck I am moderately lactose intolerant but I still think that a glass of milk now and then is refreshing, helps build muscles and good bones.

Bottom line is "milk does a body good" Perhaps you didn't see those adds growing up.

[femi fan]

Well i'm interested in raw milk for making kefir and my own yoghurt. I make water kefir because i don't trust 'normal' milk. I cook with ghee and i eat homemade goats' yoghurt. That's my dairy. Oh, butter too, but too little of it to concern me.

Fair dos about that book, i think it was robbins that wrote it, maybe i've confused it with others. Two major books i've learned lots from are pitchford's healing with whole foods and the china study. If the stuff in the latter is to be accepted, then milk is not the road to go down, regardless what animals do!

I shall refrain in the future from mentioning the cross-species thing with milk. It never really made much sense to me anyway. It's very hard work constantly staying on your guard reading stuff because there's so much conflicting info out there, and from people who seem eminently knowledgeable too.

[femi fan]

I can show you documented studies in Asia that show the growth rate of Asian cultures, and their bone strength from periods where no milk was used in their diet to when it was. However there is also an overlap in those studies because some of them are from war torn years where members also didn't have other sources of protein either.

Just look at Thailand alone though and you will notice that there are a lot of younger people under 30 that are much taller and physically more developed than the older 70-100 generations.

Though I do agree with some of the research Femi fan has stated a lot of it does read like conspiracy theory and not full scientific fact. Heck I am moderately lactose intolerant but I still think that a glass of milk now and then is refreshing, helps build muscles and good bones.

Bottom line is "milk does a body good" Perhaps you didn't see those adds growing up.

Anything now and then is not likely to cause any problems!

Yes, that's what happens to people when they're young, they get bigger and taller. But what about when they get older? What price is to paid down the track? And why is 'bigger' and 'taller' better anyway??!

You talk about bone strength, but it seems to be fact that the nations with highest dairy consumption also have the highest problems with bone breakages and bone problems when the populace start reaching old age. This is very difficult to explain away by other factors!

And it's also a fact that i've personally accepted (but i can't prove) that milk pulls calcium out of one's bones to neutralise the acid-forming nature of having digested it. This may not happen while kids are in their growth stage, but as adults when we're now in decline towards our death it's a different matter.

But a glass now and then will be fine! But it would definitely be better raw and boiled from well-fed and looked after cows than from 'normal' milk.

[femi fan]

What's happend to the OP? Has he drunk too much zapped milk and fallen diabolically ill...?

[AnotherOneAmerican]

I can show you documented studies in Asia that show the growth rate of Asian cultures, and their bone strength from periods where no milk was used in their diet to when it was. However there is also an overlap in those studies because some of them are from war torn years where members also didn't have other sources of protein either.

Just look at Thailand alone though and you will notice that there are a lot of younger people under 30 that are much taller and physically more developed than the older 70-100 generations.

Though I do agree with some of the research Femi fan has stated a lot of it does read like conspiracy theory and not full scientific fact. Heck I am moderately lactose intolerant but I still think that a glass of milk now and then is refreshing, helps build muscles and good bones.

Bottom line is "milk does a body good" Perhaps you didn't see those adds growing up.

Anything now and then is not likely to cause any problems!

Yes, that's what happens to people when they're young, they get bigger and taller. But what about when they get older? What price is to paid down the track? And why is 'bigger' and 'taller' better anyway??!

You talk about bone strength, but it seems to be fact that the nations with highest dairy consumption also have the highest problems with bone breakages and bone problems when the populace start reaching old age. This is very difficult to explain away by other factors!

And it's also a fact that i've personally accepted (but i can't prove) that milk pulls calcium out of one's bones to neutralise the acid-forming nature of having digested it. This may not happen while kids are in their growth stage, but as adults when we're now in decline towards our death it's a different matter.

But a glass now and then will be fine! But it would definitely be better raw and boiled from well-fed and looked after cows than from 'normal' milk.

Bone strength is more affected by fluoride in toothpaste and drinking water.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/08/08/bone-fluorides-magnet-new-studies-halflife.aspx

Edited August 15, 2013 by AnotherOneAmerican

[uptheos]

With food you would think that white should be beautiful, but it's not, such as white rice, white flour, sugar, potatoes salt and milk. Anything made from white flour should also be avoided, such as bread, cakes, pastries, pasta and noodles. It's not as if there's nothing left to eat after dispatching these foods to the garbage bin. Oh and white fat in meat.

Before anyone says it, my granddad also smoked, drank and ate all of the above except that "foreign pasta/noodle muck" and checked out at 92. However, with 7 billion people in the world I wouldn't say he was in the majority.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

With food you would think that white should be beautiful, but it's not, such as white rice, white flour, sugar, potatoes salt and milk. Anything made from white flour should also be avoided, such as bread, cakes, pastries, pasta and noodles. It's not as if there's nothing left to eat after dispatching these foods to the garbage bin. Oh and white fat in meat.

Before anyone says it, my granddad also smoked, drank and ate all of the above except that "foreign pasta/noodle muck" and checked out at 92. However, with 7 billion people in the world I wouldn't say he was in the majority.

Those are mostly processed foods that make produce the white color.

There are plenty of white foods that are healthy.

Onions, Leeks, Shallots, Cauliflower, Parsnips, Turnips, Radish, Garlic, Coconut meat/milk, Banana, Eggs, Jicama, Potatoes

Tofu, Soy Milk and white kidney beans. (personally I am not a fan but many consider them healthy)

Caveat -- Select quality and preparations as any of these can be rendered poor choices.

e.g. deep fried banana, potato chips etc.

[vagabond48]

All in all, unless one is addicted to the taste better to find alternatives. No other animal drinks the milk of another species.

Cows milk is useful for turning a calf into a 1,000 lb cow in a year.

Another one of those myths that originated before fact checking on the internet.

lots of lower primates in India heist free cow milk right from the udder. I have seen it..

Here is a dog drinking from an cow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOPJMbEyuL4

Can find videos of many mature animals drinking milk from other species.

Monkey's drinking dogs milk etc etc.... lots of examples.

I'm not voicing an opinion about the safety of drinking raw milk but describing examples of animals drinking other animal's milk isn't very helpful to humans either. I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't drink water the many animals dare to drink.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Yo Vagabond

The debate became humans shouldn't drink milk because mature animals don't drink the milk of their species or other species.

Completely false as demonstrated but I agree looking to animal behavior is pretty weak logic to guide human behavior.

Probably no one would drink the water that is used to irrigate crops either.

[BillyBobThai]

I just got back from San Patong Sat. market. I found 3 dairys within less than 1 mile of the market. There is one dairy that sells milk to the public in 5 lt. bags for 95 baht.

Going from the market back to Chiang Mai, there is a Wat on the left. Just past the Wat is a school and the dairy is right there on the left.

[seeker108]

I read carefully through most of these posts, but quickly skimmed some, as I do not have much time right now.

I do not think anyone mentioned this and am quite amazed. In the parking lot of the Doi Kam shop on the NW corner of Tanon Suthep and canal road a dozen or more of students from CMU ag school are there in the small open building immediately on left as you pull in. I am not sure of exact time they are there but I believe you are safe to find them there only between about 2:30 and 4:30 PM. They have kilo bags of both raw and pasteurized milk from the CMU ag school dairy and have goats milk as well. Usually you need to stop by and order at least a day in advance. Though you can get a phone number perhaps from one of the students if you will get it regularly. 25 baht per litre for the cow milk and a bit more for the goat milk.

I have been drinking this raw milk for years and drinking it all over the planet for decades. As some other posters have pointed out there is some very incorrect and unscientific info out there about raw vs pasteurized and also about homogenized milk, much of it promoted by the big dairy companies. Google yourself and see. Both of those processes make the milk less digestible and not so good for the health, also as some have already pointed out. There are good enzymes and flora that get destroyed in the heating process.

The key to healthy milk is in knowing that the process is a clean one and the cows are well cared for. Ideally they should be primarily grazed and not fed filler products. And organic. People with lactose intolerance generally find that they CAN drink this kind of milk. They are allergic to the processed junk and not milk with good flora in it that helps to digest the lactose.

[femi fan]

That's interesting info. But as i enter through the gates on my left hand side is now a strip of land for parking cars. So i'm a bit confused about which building you are talking about!