Usufruct

[Gonsalviz]

I just read the Usefruct Done thread. I want to do the same thing with a twist. The land is in the FIL's name. Will this be different?

If so, what?

[mark131v]

The guys I listened to who gave out good advice where Chiangmai Bruce and Khun Jean it may be worth PMing them for info, there where lots of others too but they are the ones who come to mind, there really is a lot on this forum and in the link in the other thread you just have to search through the negativity to find it..... personally I cannot see how using the FiL would make any difference

[LennyW]

It is just a different person granting you the Usufruct, relationship not important.

In this case your Usufruct is more secure - if in the event you get divorced it cannot be cancelled by your wife.

[jamescollister]

It is just a different person granting you the Usufruct, relationship not important.

In this case your Usufruct is more secure - if in the event you get divorced it cannot be cancelled by your wife.

Section 1469 usufruct can be cancelled at any time during marriage, no court orders needed, just go to the land office and avoid it.

Usufructs have nothing to do with housing, they are about working the land in one form or other.

If a usufruct really covered foreigners, you have a life time work permit, try getting a usufruct on a bars etc and see how long it stands. Jim

[Gonsalviz]

Thanks, all. I thought this was the case, just wanted to be sure.

[LennyW]

It is just a different person granting you the Usufruct, relationship not important.

In this case your Usufruct is more secure - if in the event you get divorced it cannot be cancelled by your wife.

Section 1469 usufruct can be cancelled at any time during marriage, no court orders needed, just go to the land office and avoid it.

Usufructs have nothing to do with housing, they are about working the land in one form or other.

If a usufruct really covered foreigners, you have a life time work permit, try getting a usufruct on a bars etc and see how long it stands. Jim

Read the OP Jim, he is getting the Usufruct from the FIL - father in law, not the wife, hence the reason i wrote "In this case your Usufruct is more secure"

[jamescollister]

It is just a different person granting you the Usufruct, relationship not important.

In this case your Usufruct is more secure - if in the event you get divorced it cannot be cancelled by your wife.

Section 1469 usufruct can be cancelled at any time during marriage, no court orders needed, just go to the land office and avoid it.

Usufructs have nothing to do with housing, they are about working the land in one form or other.

If a usufruct really covered foreigners, you have a life time work permit, try getting a usufruct on a bars etc and see how long it stands. Jim

Read the OP Jim, he is getting the Usufruct from the FIL - father in law, not the wife, hence the reason i wrote "In this case your Usufruct is more secure"

OK FIL still does not make it legal, as said nothing to to with housing, it's a right to farm or mine land etc. Prohibited occupations, civil code has rights of habitation, why people don't use them and go for usufructs or illegal nominee companies is beyond me.

Farang myths that have been told so many times that they are believed to be real.

As said I have a Limited partnership company and rubber plantations. Company set up by the National SME department [big Government ] usufructs a no, no illegal.

Do you really belive if they held water that every foreign resort, bar, restaurant, factory would not be using them. Jim

Edited February 14, 2013 by jamescollister

[LennyW]

Jim you are getting all mixed up again, an Usufruct on a piece of land and opening a business on a piece of land are two different things, dealt with by different government departments, the land office does not have any influence on whether you open a bar or a bike shop, likewise the local tessabaan has no legislation on the ownership of chanotes.

[jamescollister]

Jim you are getting all mixed up again, an Usufruct on a piece of land and opening a business on a piece of land are two different things, dealt with by different government departments, the land office does not have any influence on whether you open a bar or a bike shop, likewise the local tessabaan has no legislation on the ownership of chanotes.

Tessaban collects land and local taxes taxes in a town.

Usufruct is a right to farm, mine, quarry the land, nothing to do with housing. Housing is covered in rights of habitation.

Show me any where in the civil code re usufructs that mentions housing or rights of habitation.

Usufructs are for business. Jim

[LennyW]

Jim you are getting all mixed up again, an Usufruct on a piece of land and opening a business on a piece of land are two different things, dealt with by different government departments, the land office does not have any influence on whether you open a bar or a bike shop, likewise the local tessabaan has no legislation on the ownership of chanotes.

Tessaban collects land and local taxes taxes in a town.

Usufruct is a right to farm, mine, quarry the land, nothing to do with housing. Housing is covered in rights of habitation.

Show me any where in the civil code re usufructs that mentions housing or rights of habitation.

Usufructs are for business. Jim

Please show us all where an Usufruct is a right to mine, farm, quarry land ONLY - or for business ONLY, you keep stating this again and again, this is nothing more than your skewed interpretation.

[ThaidDown]

Usufructs have nothing to do with working with or without a permit. What a Usufruct does refer to is the possession and use of the immoveable property. Which to me would include living there No mention is made specifically as to habitation or not as ,again for me, is already covered by possession and use.

Sections 1417-1428 of the Thailand Civil Code specifically cover Usufructs. I'll just quote 1417 and 1418

Section 1417. An immovable property may be subjected to a usufruct by virtue of which the usufructuary is entitled to the possession, use and enjoyment of the property.

He has the right of management of the property.

The usufruct of a forest, mine or quarry entitles the usufructuary to the exploitation of the forest, mine or quarry.

Section 1418. A usufruct may be created either for a period of time or for the life of the usufructuary. If no time has been fixed, it is presumed that the usufruct is for the life of the usufructuary.

[jamescollister]

Section 1417. An immovable property may be subjected to a usufruct by virtue of which the usufructuary is entitled to the possession, use and enjoyment of the property.

He has the right of management of the property.

The usufruct of a forest, mine or quarry entitles the usufructuary to the exploitation of the forest, mine or quarry.

Will add a little story here, not rally usufruct related, but on how things work.

Farang was at my house having a few beers, he had just built a house on his wife land, farm land.

I said you have to be careful as you need planing permission and you won't get it on farm land.

He said no problem, wife and family said no one cares.

BIL, who was staying at our house at the time, as his wife was expecting. BIL is what might be called the county clerk.

Ask him about the house, no problem no one cares. Say, what if I have a problem and complain to you. He thinks for a few moments and says. Take about 4 weeks to get the demolition order signed then we can knock the house down.

Wheels within wheels and unless you are totally legal, you as a foreigner will loss. Jim

[Gonsalviz]

So what now? Do I find a lawyer? What about a 30 year lease?

[LennyW]

Section 1417. An immovable property may be subjected to a usufruct by virtue of which the usufructuary is entitled to the possession, use and enjoyment of the property.

He has the right of management of the property.

The usufruct of a forest, mine or quarry entitles the usufructuary to the exploitation of the forest, mine or quarry.

Will add a little story here, not rally usufruct related, but on how things work.

Farang was at my house having a few beers, he had just built a house on his wife land, farm land.

I said you have to be careful as you need planing permission and you won't get it on farm land.

He said no problem, wife and family said no one cares.

BIL, who was staying at our house at the time, as his wife was expecting. BIL is what might be called the county clerk.

Ask him about the house, no problem no one cares. Say, what if I have a problem and complain to you. He thinks for a few moments and says. Take about 4 weeks to get the demolition order signed then we can knock the house down.

Wheels within wheels and unless you are totally legal, you as a foreigner will loss. Jim

So was this just the usual jungle beer speak, or did any actual demolition occur??

[jamescollister]

Section 1417. An immovable property may be subjected to a usufruct by virtue of which the usufructuary is entitled to the possession, use and enjoyment of the property.

He has the right of management of the property.

The usufruct of a forest, mine or quarry entitles the usufructuary to the exploitation of the forest, mine or quarry.

Will add a little story here, not rally usufruct related, but on how things work.

Farang was at my house having a few beers, he had just built a house on his wife land, farm land.

I said you have to be careful as you need planing permission and you won't get it on farm land.

He said no problem, wife and family said no one cares.

BIL, who was staying at our house at the time, as his wife was expecting. BIL is what might be called the county clerk.

Ask him about the house, no problem no one cares. Say, what if I have a problem and complain to you. He thinks for a few moments and says. Take about 4 weeks to get the demolition order signed then we can knock the house down.

Wheels within wheels and unless you are totally legal, you as a foreigner will loss. Jim

So was this just the usual jungle beer speak, or did any actual demolition occur??

Off course not, no house was or going to be knocked down I'm not a bad bastard, but Tesco/ lotus came to town end of last year and a lot of homes and shops built without planning permission, Thai, were bulldozer-ed down 2 weeks notice. Road widening. Laws are there, don't follow them and you leave yourself open to Government taking action when they want to. Jim Edited February 14, 2013 by jamescollister

[Gonsalviz]

Section 1417. An immovable property may be subjected to a usufruct by virtue of which the usufructuary is entitled to the possession, use and enjoyment of the property.

He has the right of management of the property.

The usufruct of a forest, mine or quarry entitles the usufructuary to the exploitation of the forest, mine or quarry.

Will add a little story here, not rally usufruct related, but on how things work.

Farang was at my house having a few beers, he had just built a house on his wife land, farm land.

I said you have to be careful as you need planing permission and you won't get it on farm land.

He said no problem, wife and family said no one cares.

BIL, who was staying at our house at the time, as his wife was expecting. BIL is what might be called the county clerk.

Ask him about the house, no problem no one cares. Say, what if I have a problem and complain to you. He thinks for a few moments and says. Take about 4 weeks to get the demolition order signed then we can knock the house down.

Wheels within wheels and unless you are totally legal, you as a foreigner will loss. Jim

So was this just the usual jungle beer speak, or did any actual demolition occur??

Off course not, no house was or going to be knocked down I'm not a bad bastard, but Tesco/ lotus came to town end of last year and a lot of homes and shops built without planning permission, Thai, were bulldozer-ed down 2 weeks notice. Road widening. Laws are there, don't follow them and you leave yourself open to Government taking action when they want to. Jim

My house is 2 km from any road. In a sugar cane field. My wife and her family are excellent people. I have no doubt in them. I would just like to be doing things the legal way.

[jamescollister]

Section 1417. An immovable property may be subjected to a usufruct by virtue of which the usufructuary is entitled to the possession, use and enjoyment of the property.

He has the right of management of the property.

The usufruct of a forest, mine or quarry entitles the usufructuary to the exploitation of the forest, mine or quarry.

Will add a little story here, not rally usufruct related, but on how things work.

Farang was at my house having a few beers, he had just built a house on his wife land, farm land.

I said you have to be careful as you need planing permission and you won't get it on farm land.

He said no problem, wife and family said no one cares.

BIL, who was staying at our house at the time, as his wife was expecting. BIL is what might be called the county clerk.

Ask him about the house, no problem no one cares. Say, what if I have a problem and complain to you. He thinks for a few moments and says. Take about 4 weeks to get the demolition order signed then we can knock the house down.

Wheels within wheels and unless you are totally legal, you as a foreigner will loss. Jim

So was this just the usual jungle beer speak, or did any actual demolition occur??

Off course not, no house was or going to be knocked down I'm not a bad bastard, but Tesco/ lotus came to town end of last year and a lot of homes and shops built without planning permission, Thai, were bulldozer-ed down 2 weeks notice. Road widening. Laws are there, don't follow them and you leave yourself open to Government taking action when they want to. Jim

My house is 2 km from any road. In a sugar cane field. My wife and her family are excellent people. I have no doubt in them. I would just like to be doing things the legal way.

Chances are no one will ever care and you will live your life without a problem, just don't upset someone with a bit of pull.

It's not like the authorities are out to get you, they don't care most of the time, but people who believe that they have beaten the system, they are deluding themselves. Jim

[LennyW]

So was this just the usual jungle beer speak, or did any actual demolition occur??

Off course not, no house was or going to be knocked down I'm not a bad bastard, but Tesco/ lotus came to town end of last year and a lot of homes and shops built without planning permission, Thai, were bulldozer-ed down 2 weeks notice. Road widening. Laws are there, don't follow them and you leave yourself open to Government taking action when they want to. Jim

My house is 2 km from any road. In a sugar cane field. My wife and her family are excellent people. I have no doubt in them. I would just like to be doing things the legal way.

Chances are no one will ever care and you will live your life without a problem, just don't upset someone with a bit of pull.

It's not like the authorities are out to get you, they don't care most of the time, but people who believe that they have beaten the system, they are deluding themselves. Jim

Getting an Usufruct is not "beating the system" as you put it, quite the opposite - it is using a legitimate system that is available, by gaining an Usufruct over a piece of land you are acknowledging the fact that you do not own the land and in the event of your demise or end of the stated term then the said land will return to the possession of the Thai owner - simple as that. 100% legal.

[Khun Jean]

It is , don't compare with building without permission. Don't build on farm land. That is asking for future problems. Or take the risk, up to you as the always say.

Do it like in your own country.

Do the research, ask guidance, get permission, then build.

Government can not just confiscate and certainly not other businesses. They can intimidate but what else is new, happens all over the world. If they really want to build on someone else's land that has a real title like a chanot or Nor Sor Sam Kor(never buy anything else!) they will have to give a good price, or go look for another location.

To prevent confiscation buy close or in a residential area.

[rant]

As an example, in my own country when a rich developer wants to do something they get friendly with the local government, make plans do studies how to make the area better, 'get' permission by doing lot of promises like 'upgrading' the area, most of the time by building a condominium that will increase the number of people (Local governments like this a lot, more taxes!). Place parking meters while there is no parking problem etc, The government will confiscate and give a price way below market price. And that is what they do to their own citizens. I know it because t happened to me personally, you know in an old established highly developed advanced democratic country. (wish it was still a republic).

[end rant]

When in Thailand, don't start doing stupid things.

And when you feel that you need lots of security, go to Scotland. It is one place where you can get an allodial title.

Then you really own it and are not just renting from the state (taxes).

Edited February 15, 2013 by Khun Jean

[Khun Jean]

So what now? Do I find a lawyer? What about a 30 year lease?

That answer is easy. Ignore Jim's post about the usufruct, but not ignore the parts about farm land, bulding without permission etc.

I would recommend not taking a lawyer, just use the official standard document.

Go and get that usufruct, it is the best you can do in Thailand, except buying a condo in your own name.

Or rent.....

Edited February 15, 2013 by Khun Jean

[Gonsalviz]

So what now? Do I find a lawyer? What about a 30 year lease?

That answer is easy. Ignore Jim's post about the usufruct, but not ignore the parts about farm land, bulding without permission etc.

I would recommend not taking a lawyer, just use the official standard document.

Go and get that usufruct, it is the best you can do in Thailand, except buying a condo in your own name.

Or rent.....

Well, it is on fact farm land. It is a small portion of Chanote land. I chose the FIL's land because I was told that it did not matter. In fact I had turned down purchasing other land (in the wife's name) because of the farm land aspect. There is now a large restaurant built on one plot and a house built on another.

Edited February 15, 2013 by Gonsalviz

[Khun Jean]

If it is part of a chanote, it might be good to split the chanote, just enough for a house and a garden.

Then get a permission to build a house on it. If you get that it is not longer farmland, but residential. (Others have to chime in on what to do to make sure it is residential as i have no personal experience with that part)

When that is in order get a usufruct.

Edited February 15, 2013 by Khun Jean

[jamescollister]

OK question, civil code is a group of laws governing a nations CITIZENS not visitors, quests visa holders or extensions of stay, citizens.

So which part of citizen do you usufruct holders come under. jim

[Gonsalviz]

If it is part of a chanote, it might be good to split the chanote, just enough for a house and a garden.

Then get a permission to build a house on it. If you get that it is not longer farmland, but residential. (Others have to chime in on what to do to make sure it is residential as i have no personal experience with that part)

When that is in order get a usufruct.

The house is under construction and largely completed.

[jamescollister]

If it is part of a chanote, it might be good to split the chanote, just enough for a house and a garden.

Then get a permission to build a house on it. If you get that it is not longer farmland, but residential. (Others have to chime in on what to do to make sure it is residential as i have no personal experience with that part)

When that is in order get a usufruct.

The house is under construction and largely completed.

Planning permission can be tricky, my understanding is it can not be back dated.

You need permission from several groups depending on who controls the land and area.

If the land is control by the Amphor or Tessaban, their permission, if in a village easy headman gives the ok..

Problem comes when the land is controlled by the national Government IE most farm land. You need to get it re zoned, just like farm land or green belt land in the west. That one is not easy, as said no one really cares most of the time, don't piss off the wrong people.

On another section, not related to housing a member was served with a demolition order. Know the guy personally and we are talking more than just a house. He upset the wrong guy and we are not talking big wheel, just a 2 bit trouble maker who probably would have taken some cash and walked away. farang wasn't paying. thai guy filed a written complaint with the district Government, end of story, no planning permission buildings come down. jim