Tiger "temple Of Lies" - A Follow Up Report...

[wilcopops]

one of the associations CWI is allied to is the ITC - Inenational Tiger Coalition.

bodies included in this who support the CWI report ......

In alphabetical order...

*American College of Traditional Chinese Medicine

* AMUR

*Animal Welfare Institute

* Animals Asia Foundation

* Association of Zoos & Aquariums

* Big Cat Rescue

* Born Free Foundation

* Born Free USA

* British and Irish Association of Zoos & Aquariums

* Care for the Wild International

* Conservation International

* Council of Colleges of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine

* David Shepherd Wildlife Foundation

* Education for Nature − Vietnam
* Environmental Investigation Agency

* Global Tiger Patrol

* Humane Society International

* Humane Society of the United States

* International Fund for Animal Welfare

* International Trust for Nature Conservation

* PeunPa

* Phoenix Fund

* Save The Tiger Fund

* Species Survival Network

* The Fund For The Tiger
* Tigris Foundation

* Tour Operators for Tigers

* TRAFFIC

* 21st Century Tiger
* WildAid

* Wildlife Alliance

* Wildlife Conservation Nepal

* Wildlife Trust of India

* Wildlife Watch Group

* World Association of Zoos & Aquariums

* World Society for the Protection of Animals

* World Wildlife Fund

* Zoological Society of London

Edited May 19, 2013 by wilcopops

[wilcopops]

I really wish they had not Titled this report 'Temple of Lies'.

Not being a Vet and, therefore, not being able to make a qualified judgement about whether or not these tigers are being maltreated (I saw no evidence of maltreatment when I visited), I rely on unbiased, expert, objective reports to educate me.

Whilst I suspect that the content of the report might be correct (how the <deleted> do I really know?), giving it that title immediately puts me off; it's tabloid-style reporting. Show me a scientific report conducted by scientists or someone else suitable qualified, then I might begin to accept it as valid.

You seem to have problem with who is qualified here and what the criticisms are. a vet is not necessarily the best to address the conservation criticisms. Which part of the report do you find "unscientific"? Most of the criticisms have a sound proven scientific basis. Those making the criticisms are reporting accepted scientific principles. What kind of "scientist' would you like.....or would you just like anyone in a white coat?

I did not say I had a problem with the criticisms; I simply do not think the title is particularly sensible and I would like the report-writers to qualify what they have reported.

I took the time to visit their website (before I posted above) and not one of the members of the organisation listed on their website seems to have a relevant qualification (is there a qualification in conservation?, I bet there is) so I don't see where your assumption (?) that the report follows 'accepted scientific principles' comes from; did we read the same report?

Please don't get me wrong, I abhor cruelty, but I do question that form of reporting.

"abhor cruelty" - you don't seem to get that this is however unpleasant a side issue - the central issue is the false claims and the potential damage to the future survival of the Tiger - especially the sub-species Corbetti.

Cruelty etc etc are merely examples of the misguided attitudes and incompetence of those running the temple....who have admitted to dismissing "western" practices (e.g. PROVEN and TESTED methods) and preferring "buddhist" philosophies of animal welfare..........based on? nothing at all.

E.g. they consider an incorrect diet is better for the animals, they have no breeding policy, and don't care if they produce hybrids or interbred animals. They knew nothing of cage sizes or recommended activities for the tigers - one recently died on a "toy" provided for it. They are unbothered by the amount of time animals are locked up and the number of animals in their charge......this isn't rocket science.

Edited May 19, 2013 by wilcopops

[BoonToong]

Wilcopops, where did you find all those references please? (yes I did miss them).

I looked at some of the references; do you mean they are directly linked to the report or are they about the Tiger Temple in general?

Edited May 19, 2013 by BoonToong

[wilcopops]

As I said I think crtics if the critics need to read up on the place. I doubt if many if any have bothered to read the original report in full.

http://www.careforthewild.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/tigertemplereport08_final_v11.pdf

they are numbered references - due to formatting problems I omitted the numbering.

In order to fully understand how out of line the temple is may I suggest that you get up to speed first on conservation principles, and then in particular the state of the tiger in the world today. You also need to understand why the fate of one species is linked to other species, us and the survival of the planet.

I would suggest you familiarise yourself with the work of Alan Rabinowitz - TV and books - and his organisation Panthera. He is one of the world's leading authorities on big cat conservation. "Chasing the Dragon" his first book is a memoir of his experiences with tigers in Thailand in the 1980s.

Edited May 19, 2013 by wilcopops

[wilcopops]

to give you some idea of the tiger's plight here are some statistics........

SUBSPECIES ESTIMATED NO. RED LIST STATUS

Bengal tiger approx. 2,000 Endangered

Indochinese tiger less than 1,500 Critically Endangered

Siberian tiger 431-529 Critically Endangered

Sumatran tiger 400-500 Critically Endangered

Malayan tiger approx. 500 Critically Endangered

South China tiger not seen in 25 yrs Probably extinct

The tigers at the temple are probably Bengal/Indonesian (Corbetts) hybrids and are likely to be in-bred. Both these factors mean that not only can they or their off-spring NEVER be released into the wild; they are useless as a captive gene pool as well.

Edited May 19, 2013 by wilcopops

[BoonToong]

As I said I think crtics if the critics need to read up on the place. I doubt if many if any have bothered to read the original report in full.

http://www.careforthewild.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/tigertemplereport08_final_v11.pdf

they are numbered references - due to formatting problems I omitted the numbering.

In order to fully understand how out of line the temple is may I suggest that you get up to speed first on conservation principles, and then in particular the state of the tiger in the world today. You also need to understand why the fate of one species is linked to other species, us and the survival of the planet.

I would suggest you familiarise yourself with the work of Alan Rabinowitz - TV and books - and his organisation Panthera. He is one of the world's leading authorities on big cat conservation. "Chasing the Dragon" his first book is a memoir of his experiences with tigers in Thailand in the 1980s.

Thank you for the link to that report; I'll read it tomorrow.

Sorry, I don't have the time or the the motivation to follow your suggestion about Alan Rabinowitz etc, but thank you anyway.

[wilcopops]

As I said I think crtics if the critics need to read up on the place. I doubt if many if any have bothered to read the original report in full.

http://www.careforthewild.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/tigertemplereport08_final_v11.pdf

they are numbered references - due to formatting problems I omitted the numbering.

In order to fully understand how out of line the temple is may I suggest that you get up to speed first on conservation principles, and then in particular the state of the tiger in the world today. You also need to understand why the fate of one species is linked to other species, us and the survival of the planet.

I would suggest you familiarise yourself with the work of Alan Rabinowitz - TV and books - and his organisation Panthera. He is one of the world's leading authorities on big cat conservation. "Chasing the Dragon" his first book is a memoir of his experiences with tigers in Thailand in the 1980s.

Thank you for the link to that report; I'll read it tomorrow.

Sorry, I don't have the time or the the motivation to follow your suggestion about Alan Rabinowitz etc, but thank you anyway.

If you don't read here are some movies - http://www.panthera.org/video/‘lost-land-tiger’-featuring-panthera’s-ceo-dr-alan-rabinowitz

It is BBC and NAT GEO and these programs have personal connections for me.

Here is the Panthera Web site

http://www.panthera.org/#

http://www.panthera.org/video/‘lost-land-tiger’-featuring-panthera’s-ceo-dr-alan-rabinowitz

For an overview or taster of the problems in S.E. Asia. this BBC TV program outlines the main problems facing conservation at present and approaches by ecologists.......http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qgd1

i expect this is only available on iTunes or Amazon at present.

Edited May 19, 2013 by wilcopops

[fabio coltro]

how can i make ne page forum? idont see any option...

[tw25rw]

to give you some idea of the tiger's plight here are some statistics........

SUBSPECIES ESTIMATED NO. RED LIST STATUS

Bengal tiger approx. 2,000 Endangered

Indochinese tiger less than 1,500 Critically Endangered

Siberian tiger 431-529 Critically Endangered

Sumatran tiger 400-500 Critically Endangered

Malayan tiger approx. 500 Critically Endangered

South China tiger not seen in 25 yrs Probably extinct

The tigers at the temple are probably Bengal/Indonesian (Corbetts) hybrids and are likely to be in-bred. Both these factors mean that not only can they or their off-spring NEVER be released into the wild; they are useless as a captive gene pool as well.

How do you know the Bengal has bred with the others?

Considering the subspecies is so low in number and live in isolated pockets, the wild ones are likely as inbred as the captive ones.

[wilcopops]

to give you some idea of the tiger's plight here are some statistics........

SUBSPECIES ESTIMATED NO. RED LIST STATUS

Bengal tiger approx. 2,000 Endangered

Indochinese tiger less than 1,500 Critically Endangered

Siberian tiger 431-529 Critically Endangered

Sumatran tiger 400-500 Critically Endangered

Malayan tiger approx. 500 Critically Endangered

South China tiger not seen in 25 yrs Probably extinct

The tigers at the temple are probably Bengal/Indonesian (Corbetts) hybrids and are likely to be in-bred. Both these factors mean that not only can they or their off-spring NEVER be released into the wild; they are useless as a captive gene pool as well.

How do you know the Bengal has bred with the others?

Considering the subspecies is so low in number and live in isolated pockets, the wild ones are likely as inbred as the captive ones.

At the temple? - use your common sense. the head "monk" has basically said "if they breed they breed" - there was an attempt to gather DNA but it mysteriously disappeared. There is no regulation or proper records of how the cubs "appear" or which animal is the father. Some females are allegedly being used a cub factories to satisfy the public demand to see cubs whenever they visit.

In the wild - the animals occupy different areas of the planet - different habitats. (Check the taxonomy of subspecies and their habitat)

If a zoo wants to breed an animal especially a large or rare one, they contact other zoos around the world all of whom have DNA records of their animals. The appropriate animal is selected; care is taken first of all to make sure they are the same sub-species, then they are checked to make sure they are not closely related - inbreeding is a big problem when populations become very small.

Hybrids and in-breeding are common in the illegal tiger trade - In Chinese medicine once the tiger has been reduced to its various parts and organs for bottling etc., there is little concern as to the animal's pedigree.

Edited May 20, 2013 by wilcopops

[BoonToong]

A couple of 'chill-pills' required somewhere I think

[wilcopops]

A couple of 'chill-pills' required somewhere I think

Really - I'm sorry but it is VERY frustrating when one finds oneself responding to questions that clearly emanate from people who do not have the slightest background knowledge on the subject yet feel they can offer a valid opinion.

There is a plethora of information on conservation theory and practice easily accessible on the net - it is the kind of information that people think needs to be freely available yet it seems that people voice the most banal questions and opinions on the tiger temple without making any effort to do ay research for themselves in the first place.

And when I answer their questions bereft of any arguments they resort to ad hominem attacks that are completely irrelevant to the OP.

one of the most annoying is the kind of poster who thinks they are being "clever" by asking for "proof" or evidence......they clearly have no idea of how to process information or argument and follow it to a reasonable conclusion...... they are like a little kid who has just found out by repeating the word "why" they get an adults attention.....for a short time at least.

Edited May 20, 2013 by wilcopops

[BoonToong]

Well, I have now read the original report....

It contains some interesting and enlightening information but it also contains some inaccuracies, hearsay and anecdotal 'evidence'. That, for me, spoils it. Having gone through some of the information you have provided, however (thank you), the weight of common sense suggests that the 'tiger temple' is not all it appears to be on the surface.

I stick to my earlier comments, the use of the title 'Temple of Lies' weakens the report for me.

As for 'valid' opinions, this is a FORUM (i.e., A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged) with the sub-heading of 'Thailand Travel'.

[wilcopops]

Typical answer - no content.

Using words or phrases like forum exchange of opinions "A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged" does not vaidate your opinion if it isn't underwritten by any reasoning.

"Inaccuracies"?? "Anecdotal" etc lovely words now give examples and say why you believe they lack credulity.

like EVERY other person who criticises the report or those who criticise the temple you have not posted one sungle thing that contradicts the report or other criticisms....largely because you can't - I suspect you just don't like the idea you might be barking up the wrong tree.

It is ridiculous but in order to get this into a meaningful discussion about the Temple I'm actually having to go back to basics and am trying to get you to put forward your own argument which you have patently failed to do

Edited May 20, 2013 by wilcopops

[BoonToong]

Inaccuracy

Fig 31 - "The Temple's Abbot sprays tiger urine into a tiger's face, inducing a fear-based submissive response" - that is not what I see in the picture

Hearsay

"one of CWI's investigators was told by a member of Temple staff"

Anecdotal

"One investigator describes the event........"

My point is this; I am sure the report does not need to convince people who are already knowledgeable about conservation that things are not right at the temple; those people are already onside. In my opinion the only way things can be changed at that temple is to get sufficient backing from the general populace to add weight to the campaign and those people need to be educated and stimulated into action. The report, in my opinion, goes a long way to achieve this but undermines itself for the reasons I have stated.

As for the follow-up report, it has a tabloid-style title and makes a cheap dig at Buddhism (The rules of Buddhism) amongst other things, and those kind of things really put me off accepting the report in its entirety.

[cornishcarlos]

Interesting debate this...

I would never go to the temple, regardless of any reports (accurate or not) I have read.

There is no reason for temples to be using animals to raise money, they make enough money from normal donations.

Plus I'm allergic to cats !!

[HeavyDrinker]

Really - I'm sorry but it is VERY frustrating when one finds oneself responding to questions that clearly emanate from people who do not have the slightest background knowledge on the subject yet feel they can offer a valid opinion.

And pray what are your credentials, or indeed the credentials of ANY of the "sources" you keep spouting on about especially the CWI?

Attacking other's apparent lack on knowledge is a feeble standpoint.

Why not actually reply to the posts made?

Sadly you seem unable to make a single valid argument. It's the same old tired stuff every time you raise this topic on any forum. All you do is rattle on about people having 'no credentials' to discuss wildlife before posting the same old stuff over and over again.

I'd seriously dispute CWI as a legitimate source.

CWI is basically an expensive petting zoo for backpackers. They themselves are constantly running into bother with the Thai authorities.

They have been asked to provide evidence on many occasions yet keep churning out the same laboured anecdotes in a frenzy of self promotion.

CWI had their chance to stand and deliver but bottled it. Live with it.

[BookMan]

Really the only chance Tigers have for survival is in zoo's like the Tiger Temple.

[anachack]

in reply to wilcopops points:

"critics of the report are not forthcoming with facts" - I am an authority and refute the allegations and have provided many facts that disprove the accusations.

tw25rw is absolutely correct about the CWI. Neither they nor any representative of the organisation have visited the temple since the disastrous effort by Guna Subramaniam who achieved absolutely nothing.

I love that lemonjelly wants to remove Asian tigers from Thailand and place them in a developed country where they do not belong - not much different to animal activists really.

back to wilco:

#21 - References. I have already pointed out to the CWI that their references are a list of their sources none of which are contributory investigations or factual. They are just a list of references to the background information in the report. This report is also not new, it is a rehash of the original written in 2007 that I slated so badly they felt compelled to rewrite it. It is less relevant and accurate today than it was in 2007.

claims about the WWF and ITC are bogus. Neither organisation has had anything at all to do with the temple.

#24 - The ITC did not write to the temple nor investigate it. The CWI sent a letter in the name of the ITC and cited them all as supportive. If you try asking most of the organisations that are members of the ITC you will find them rather vague about the temple because ONLY the CWI have investigated it.

tw25rw - "a report put together from stitched together tourist feedback has to be of dubious veracity" That is exactly what it is.

http://www.anachak.co.uk/tigertemple.php - wilcopops will no more read this than he is demanding you should all read the CWI garbage.

[cornishcarlos]

Really the only chance Tigers have for survival is in zoo's like the Tiger Temple.

No, they also could survive given some degree of protection in the wild.

Might help if some of their natural habitat was left alone too !!

[HeavyDrinker]

Even Sybelle ran from 'Wilcopops' and Edwin's lies....

Wilcopops?

Do you want to carry on?

[HeavyDrinker]

Just as a follow up post, you can rest assured that Mainwaring will be on to the mods trying to get theads removed.

He does this on every forum he argues this dribble on.

Especially when I'm on his lying arse...

[BookMan]

Really the only chance Tigers have for survival is in zoo's like the Tiger Temple.

No, they also could survive given some degree of protection in the wild.

Might help if some of their natural habitat was left alone too !!

I wish it were true CC.

Tigers are just one of hundreds of animals that have no future 'in the wild'.

[manarak]

I'd be glad if people remembered that animals are not the equals of humans.

I'm in favor of safeguarding animal species and the environment, but with the goal of conservation for man's benefit, not for the benefit of the anthropomorphist idea of "Nature".

Thanks to treehuggers, Switzerland's last dolphins will be sold away at the end of the year, import has been banned by Law. This is just plain wrong. I hope the same thing doesn't happen to the tigers.

Edited May 21, 2013 by manarak

[sustento]

I'd be glad if people remembered that animals are not the equals of humans.

I'm in favor of safeguarding animal species and the environment, but with the goal of conservation for man's benefit, not for the benefit of the anthropomorphist idea of "Nature".

Thanks to treehuggers, Switzerland's last dolphins will be sold away at the end of the year, import has been banned by Law. This is just plain wrong. I hope the same thing doesn't happen to the tigers.

Are dolphins native to Switzerland?

[cornishcarlos]

I'd be glad if people remembered that animals are not the equals of humans.

I'm in favor of safeguarding animal species and the environment, but with the goal of conservation for man's benefit, not for the benefit of the anthropomorphist idea of "Nature".

Thanks to treehuggers, Switzerland's last dolphins will be sold away at the end of the year, import has been banned by Law. This is just plain wrong. I hope the same thing doesn't happen to the tigers.

Are you for real !!!!

Whilst I agree that animals are not equal with humans on some levels, your idea that conservation should only be carried out for the benefit of man is the stupidest comment I have heard in a long while.

Do you seriously believe that everything in the natural world is there for us the plunder and rape ??

This is not our planet, whatever you think we are an integral part of one big eco system. The planet will survive no matter what we do. We won't survive for much longer with attitudes like yours..

Unless you were just trying to wind people up, it which case, nice one...

[anachack]

yes I have to agree with astentos and cornishcarlos - placing animals in the wrong environment is dangerous and why tigers do not belong in the USA (the country with the most of them) and nor do Pandas belong in Edinburgh.

Zoos are not the answer and conservation is critical if man wants to remain on this planet.

Just in case manarak is serious, if we allow apex predators to die out the prey species will not proliferate, they will simply shrink with the environment. It wouldn't take long for farming to suffer, food shortages, dry crops, high prices, starvation....

Wildlife most certainly is our equal but only we can make a difference. It has nothing to do with tree hugging. This is do or die....

This also has absolutely nothing to do with the tiger temple!

[manarak]

I'd be glad if people remembered that animals are not the equals of humans.

I'm in favor of safeguarding animal species and the environment, but with the goal of conservation for man's benefit, not for the benefit of the anthropomorphist idea of "Nature".

Thanks to treehuggers, Switzerland's last dolphins will be sold away at the end of the year, import has been banned by Law. This is just plain wrong. I hope the same thing doesn't happen to the tigers.

Are dolphins native to Switzerland?

yes - at least two were born in the delphinarium

[manarak]

I'd be glad if people remembered that animals are not the equals of humans.

I'm in favor of safeguarding animal species and the environment, but with the goal of conservation for man's benefit, not for the benefit of the anthropomorphist idea of "Nature".

Thanks to treehuggers, Switzerland's last dolphins will be sold away at the end of the year, import has been banned by Law. This is just plain wrong. I hope the same thing doesn't happen to the tigers.

Are you for real !!!!

Whilst I agree that animals are not equal with humans on some levels, your idea that conservation should only be carried out for the benefit of man is the stupidest comment I have heard in a long while.

Do you seriously believe that everything in the natural world is there for us the plunder and rape ??

This is not our planet, whatever you think we are an integral part of one big eco system. The planet will survive no matter what we do. We won't survive for much longer with attitudes like yours..

Unless you were just trying to wind people up, it which case, nice one...

"plunder and rape" are not applyable to animals, since these terms describe criminal human behavior towards other humans or other humans' property.

"This is not our planet" ok, whose is it?

"whatever you think we are an integral part of one big eco system." agree with that. so we have to preserve the ecosystem for our benefit.

"The planet will survive no matter what we do." partly agree, but the "planet" will not "survive". it simply does not care about anything, because it doesn't have a conscience. The planet will be destroyed no matter what we do. We can make a nuclear war down here, there is nobody to care about it, except us because we would have destroyed ourselves.

and in some billion years the planet will disappear anyway with the next cosmic event, and maybe humanity will have found a way to migrate away before it happens.

playing anthropomorphism on the planet is nonsense.

seriously, dump Rousseau and read more Descartes.

[manarak]

yes I have to agree with astentos and cornishcarlos - placing animals in the wrong environment is dangerous and why tigers do not belong in the USA (the country with the most of them) and nor do Pandas belong in Edinburgh.

Zoos are not the answer and conservation is critical if man wants to remain on this planet.

Just in case manarak is serious, if we allow apex predators to die out the prey species will not proliferate, they will simply shrink with the environment. It wouldn't take long for farming to suffer, food shortages, dry crops, high prices, starvation....

Wildlife most certainly is our equal but only we can make a difference. It has nothing to do with tree hugging. This is do or die....

This also has absolutely nothing to do with the tiger temple!

you describe two different things - the first is the conservation of animals in their natural habitat. I support that, because I too think that Zoos are not the right tool for that.

The second thing the display of animals for the enjoyment of humans - and this has very much to do with the tiger temple - I think both things can be done - Zoos and preservation in natural habitat.