Should Teach A Subject Called "common Sense" In Thailand.

[Indrid Cold]

...and who taught the parents?

The once who produced offspring being able to pass uni.

[giddyup]

HeavyDrinker, on 21 Mar 2013 - 10:42, said:

Quote

As for my comment that Thais are resistant to new ideas, that's a hard fact and not a judgement call.

It's also <deleted>. You've obviously never worked with any Thais....

Do you ever actually have anything constructive to say, other than just disputing someone's comments by saying "<deleted>"? If you have some contrary evidence, let's hear it.

The burden of proof doesn't actually fall on me. I'd rather you show me some evidence to support this 'hard fact' that Thais are resistant to new ideas, then I'll blow you out of the water....because things like the motor car, moving pictures, smoking tobacco never really caught on here did they...?

Ask anyone who has used Thai "tradesmen" to renovate a house how resistant to a new idea or way of doing something they are. I tried to explain to the guy that managed to crack 4 tiles installing a shower rail, that perhaps if he had used a smaller masonry drill (like 5mm) instead of the blunt 10mm that he hammered away with, the tiles wouldn't have broken, or the guy who laid the tiles putting the imperfect tiles right where you walk in, rather than over in a corner where they wouldn't be seen etc, etc. Or the internet guy who wanted to run the cable down an inside wall rather than drill one hole and run it through from the outside. The Thais tend to take the least line of resistance, but I'm sure you will have plenty of examples to dispute this.

[FunFon]

The once who produced offspring being able to pass uni.

-

But we've all agreed that academic brilliance has no correlation with common sense.

Relevant link and a follow-up

I'd be all for a test before being allowed to spawn, any test at all to help keep the population down. . .

[HeavyDrinker]

Ask anyone who has used Thai "tradesmen" to renovate a house how resistant to a new idea or way of doing something they are. I tried to explain to the guy that managed to crack 4 tiles installing a shower rail, that perhaps if he had used a smaller masonry drill (like 5mm) instead of the blunt 10mm that he hammered away with, the tiles wouldn't have broken, or the guy who laid the tiles putting the imperfect tiles right where you walk in, rather than over in a corner where they wouldn't be seen etc, etc. Or the internet guy who wanted to run the cable down an inside wall rather than drill one hole and run it through from the outside. The Thais tend to take the least line of resistance, but I'm sure you will have plenty of examples to dispute this.

That's just bad tradesmanship. I'd say that's a trait found on every country on Earth laddie. I wouldn't say it was purely a Thai thing.

I'd say the real lack of common sense here was shown by you for not giving the blighter's the 'bum's rush' and showing them the door ASAP.

I've never had any bother with tradesmen here but then I'm willing to pay for excellence.

[Kananga]

The burden of proof doesn't actually fall on me. I'd rather you show me some evidence to support this 'hard fact' that Thais are resistant to new ideas, then I'll blow you out of the water....because things like the motor car, moving pictures, smoking tobacco never really caught on here did they...?

Ask anyone who has used Thai "tradesmen" to renovate a house how resistant to a new idea or way of doing something they are. I tried to explain to the guy that managed to crack 4 tiles installing a shower rail, that perhaps if he had used a smaller masonry drill (like 5mm) instead of the blunt 10mm that he hammered away with, the tiles wouldn't have broken, or the guy who laid the tiles putting the imperfect tiles right where you walk in, rather than over in a corner where they wouldn't be seen etc, etc. Or the internet guy who wanted to run the cable down an inside wall rather than drill one hole and run it through from the outside. The Thais tend to take the least line of resistance, but I'm sure you will have plenty of examples to dispute this.

Thats a good point. Every time we take our 2 year old son to get his hair cut the hairdresser has to be physically restrained from shaving his head round his ears. Every time we tell her not to do it before she starts and then every time we need to remind her again as she is cutting which jolts her out of her drooling auto pilot mode.

"But thats how children have their hair cut in Thailand" they say.

[samran]

Thats a good point. Every time we take our 2 year old son to get his hair cut the hairdresser has to be physically restrained from shaving his head round his ears. Every time we tell her not to do it before she starts and then every time we need to remind her again as she is cutting which jolts her out of her drooling auto pilot mode.

"But thats how children have their hair cut in Thailand" they say.

then you go somewhere else?

[samran]

Ask anyone who has used Thai "tradesmen" to renovate a house how resistant to a new idea or way of doing something they are. I tried to explain to the guy that managed to crack 4 tiles installing a shower rail, that perhaps if he had used a smaller masonry drill (like 5mm) instead of the blunt 10mm that he hammered away with, the tiles wouldn't have broken, or the guy who laid the tiles putting the imperfect tiles right where you walk in, rather than over in a corner where they wouldn't be seen etc, etc. Or the internet guy who wanted to run the cable down an inside wall rather than drill one hole and run it through from the outside. The Thais tend to take the least line of resistance, but I'm sure you will have plenty of examples to dispute this.

That's just bad tradesmanship. I'd say that's a trait found on every country on Earth laddie. I wouldn't say it was purely a Thai thing.

I'd say the real lack of common sense here was shown by you for not giving the blighter's the 'bum's rush' and showing them the door ASAP.

I've never had any bother with tradesmen here but then I'm willing to pay for excellence.

I've never quite understood how people allow themselves to be walked all over. And then blame others when it has happened.

[Soutpeel]

HeavyDrinker, on 21 Mar 2013 - 10:42, said:

Quote

As for my comment that Thais are resistant to new ideas, that's a hard fact and not a judgement call.

It's also <deleted>. You've obviously never worked with any Thais....

Do you ever actually have anything constructive to say, other than just disputing someone's comments by saying "<deleted>"? If you have some contrary evidence, let's hear it.

The burden of proof doesn't actually fall on me. I'd rather you show me some evidence to support this 'hard fact' that Thais are resistant to new ideas, then I'll blow you out of the water....because things like the motor car, moving pictures, smoking tobacco never really caught on here did they...?

You forgot about the I-pads and smart phones..!!! bet the average Thai can use these devices better than the average farang wrinkly...so would say not resistant to new ideas at all..

[Soutpeel]

Ask anyone who has used Thai "tradesmen" to renovate a house how resistant to a new idea or way of doing something they are. I tried to explain to the guy that managed to crack 4 tiles installing a shower rail, that perhaps if he had used a smaller masonry drill (like 5mm) instead of the blunt 10mm that he hammered away with, the tiles wouldn't have broken, or the guy who laid the tiles putting the imperfect tiles right where you walk in, rather than over in a corner where they wouldn't be seen etc, etc. Or the internet guy who wanted to run the cable down an inside wall rather than drill one hole and run it through from the outside. The Thais tend to take the least line of resistance, but I'm sure you will have plenty of examples to dispute this.

That's just bad tradesmanship. I'd say that's a trait found on every country on Earth laddie. I wouldn't say it was purely a Thai thing.

I'd say the real lack of common sense here was shown by you for not giving the blighter's the 'bum's rush' and showing them the door ASAP.

I've never had any bother with tradesmen here but then I'm willing to pay for excellence.

I've never quite understood how people allow themselves to be walked all over. And then blame others when it has happened.

Dont be too hard on these posters Samran....bleating on like this gives them a sense of superiority they couldnt get in their own countries....

[FunFon]

And there's a big difference between lack of common sense and just not giving a toss about workmanship.

Often just a question of priorities, career success just isn't that high on the list for most Thais (not I'm not saying all!), and that's one of the things I really love about the place, those are the ones a lot more fun to hang out with.

Just frustrating when you're actually trying to get something done to your back-home quality standards I agree, either pay through the nose or let your standards slide IMO. . .

[Kananga]

Thats a good point. Every time we take our 2 year old son to get his hair cut the hairdresser has to be physically restrained from shaving his head round his ears. Every time we tell her not to do it before she starts and then every time we need to remind her again as she is cutting which jolts her out of her drooling auto pilot mode.

"But thats how children have their hair cut in Thailand" they say.

then you go somewhere else?

This is the third place.

[giddyup]

Ask anyone who has used Thai "tradesmen" to renovate a house how resistant to a new idea or way of doing something they are. I tried to explain to the guy that managed to crack 4 tiles installing a shower rail, that perhaps if he had used a smaller masonry drill (like 5mm) instead of the blunt 10mm that he hammered away with, the tiles wouldn't have broken, or the guy who laid the tiles putting the imperfect tiles right where you walk in, rather than over in a corner where they wouldn't be seen etc, etc. Or the internet guy who wanted to run the cable down an inside wall rather than drill one hole and run it through from the outside. The Thais tend to take the least line of resistance, but I'm sure you will have plenty of examples to dispute this.

That's just bad tradesmanship. I'd say that's a trait found on every country on Earth laddie. I wouldn't say it was purely a Thai thing.

I'd say the real lack of common sense here was shown by you for not giving the blighter's the 'bum's rush' and showing them the door ASAP.

I've never had any bother with tradesmen here but then I'm willing to pay for excellence.

Oh, I get it, it's my fault for either not paying enough or not standing there and supervising every little thing they do. What does "willing to pay for excellence" even mean? How do you know whether the guy does good work or not until he completes the job. When you mention "tradesmanship", is there such a thing? Do people actually undergo apprenticeships. Try asking the next "tradesman" that you use for his qualifications. Sorry, but I hear to many horror stories from falangs (and myself)who have had shoddy jobs done not to believe that that Thai workmen who take pride in a job well done are thin on the ground.

[Swiss1960]

Maybe we need classes of "common sense" for the foreigners coming to stay in Thailand in order to teach them that this is the Land of the Thais and that their idea of "common sense" is different from ours and that it is utterly useless to constantly complain about, but get a life and start adjusting to the Thai way of doing it?

There are a lot of things that I don't like, but what is it worth (except high blood pressure) when I complain about things I know I can not change but rather cause conflicts because I make Thais lose their face if I interfere with their way of doing things???

[FunFon]

This is the third place.

-

Why not just learn to DIY?

By the time the kid's old enough to judge for themselves you'll probably be pretty good at it, and it's a good fallback career option

[giddyup]

Ask anyone who has used Thai "tradesmen" to renovate a house how resistant to a new idea or way of doing something they are. I tried to explain to the guy that managed to crack 4 tiles installing a shower rail, that perhaps if he had used a smaller masonry drill (like 5mm) instead of the blunt 10mm that he hammered away with, the tiles wouldn't have broken, or the guy who laid the tiles putting the imperfect tiles right where you walk in, rather than over in a corner where they wouldn't be seen etc, etc. Or the internet guy who wanted to run the cable down an inside wall rather than drill one hole and run it through from the outside. The Thais tend to take the least line of resistance, but I'm sure you will have plenty of examples to dispute this.

That's just bad tradesmanship. I'd say that's a trait found on every country on Earth laddie. I wouldn't say it was purely a Thai thing.

I'd say the real lack of common sense here was shown by you for not giving the blighter's the 'bum's rush' and showing them the door ASAP.

I've never had any bother with tradesmen here but then I'm willing to pay for excellence.

I've never quite understood how people allow themselves to be walked all over. And then blame others when it has happened.

Who is getting "walked all over"? A guy cracks 4 tiles putting up a shower rail, what should I have done, punched him out? The damage has been done, abusing him for his shoddy, careless work is likely to make him an enemy with payback in mind.

[Soutpeel]

The once who produced offspring being able to pass uni.

-

But we've all agreed that academic brilliance has no correlation with common sense.

Relevant link and a follow-up

I'd be all for a test before being allowed to spawn, any test at all to help keep the population down. . .

In fact I would suggest the greater the academic brilliance the less common sense exhibited...I have worked with people who were academically brillant buyt couldnt fid their way to the toilet unless you held their hands and showed them

Common sense is not taught, its learned

[Swiss1960]

Ask anyone who has used Thai "tradesmen" to renovate a house how resistant to a new idea or way of doing something they are. I tried to explain to the guy that managed to crack 4 tiles installing a shower rail, that perhaps if he had used a smaller masonry drill (like 5mm) instead of the blunt 10mm that he hammered away with, the tiles wouldn't have broken, or the guy who laid the tiles putting the imperfect tiles right where you walk in, rather than over in a corner where they wouldn't be seen etc, etc. Or the internet guy who wanted to run the cable down an inside wall rather than drill one hole and run it through from the outside. The Thais tend to take the least line of resistance, but I'm sure you will have plenty of examples to dispute this.

That's just bad tradesmanship. I'd say that's a trait found on every country on Earth laddie. I wouldn't say it was purely a Thai thing.

I'd say the real lack of common sense here was shown by you for not giving the blighter's the 'bum's rush' and showing them the door ASAP.

I've never had any bother with tradesmen here but then I'm willing to pay for excellence.

Oh, I get it, it's my fault for either not paying enough or not standing there and supervising every little thing they do. What does "willing to pay for excellence" even mean? How do you know whether the guy does good work or not until he completes the job. When you mention "tradesmanship", is there such a thing? Do people actually undergo apprenticeships. Try asking the next "tradesman" that you use for his qualifications. Sorry, but I hear to many horror stories from falangs (and myself)who have had shoddy jobs done not to believe that that Thai workmen who take pride in a job well done are thin on the ground.

Wake up and start to realize that you are in Thailand. Yes, it is your fault, because you should have taken lessons beforehand and realize that in Thailand, you get what you pay for and you get what you control on a constant basis. And that is not only true for you as a foreigner, but also true for all Thai who deal with workers... you want a job done the way you are used to from back home, then be onsite every minute and tell them from the beginning how you want it done and pay for it.

[samran]

Who is getting "walked all over"? A guy cracks 4 tiles putting up a shower rail, what should I have done, punched him out? The damage has been done, abusing him for his shoddy, careless work is likely to make him an enemy with payback in mind.

So you are paying for a shoddy, carlessly tiled bathroom?

[Soutpeel]

Ask anyone who has used Thai "tradesmen" to renovate a house how resistant to a new idea or way of doing something they are. I tried to explain to the guy that managed to crack 4 tiles installing a shower rail, that perhaps if he had used a smaller masonry drill (like 5mm) instead of the blunt 10mm that he hammered away with, the tiles wouldn't have broken, or the guy who laid the tiles putting the imperfect tiles right where you walk in, rather than over in a corner where they wouldn't be seen etc, etc. Or the internet guy who wanted to run the cable down an inside wall rather than drill one hole and run it through from the outside. The Thais tend to take the least line of resistance, but I'm sure you will have plenty of examples to dispute this.

That's just bad tradesmanship. I'd say that's a trait found on every country on Earth laddie. I wouldn't say it was purely a Thai thing.

I'd say the real lack of common sense here was shown by you for not giving the blighter's the 'bum's rush' and showing them the door ASAP.

I've never had any bother with tradesmen here but then I'm willing to pay for excellence.

I've never quite understood how people allow themselves to be walked all over. And then blame others when it has happened.

Who is getting "walked all over"? A guy cracks 4 tiles putting up a shower rail, what should I have done, punched him out? The damage has been done, abusing him for his shoddy, careless work is likely to make him an enemy with payback in mind.

no need to punch anybody out

Shouldnt have paid him up front...common sense and all...

[FunFon]

Oh, I get it, it's my fault for either not paying enough or not standing there and supervising every little thing they do. What does "willing to pay for excellence" even mean? How do you know whether the guy does good work or not until he completes the job. When you mention "tradesmanship", is there such a thing? Do people actually undergo apprenticeships. Try asking the next "tradesman" that you use for his qualifications. Sorry, but I hear to many horror stories from falangs (and myself)who have had shoddy jobs done not to believe that that Thai workmen who take pride in a job well done are thin on the ground.

-

Yes you're absolutely right, very very thin on the ground, no structured system of formal qualifications nor effective regulation even for life-threatening aspects, it is what it is. B&M all you like, won't change things, but don't claim it isn't possible, walk around the top hotels and resorts in the Kingdom, they somehow manage (most of the time).

But no one's saying it's easy and certainly not cheap if you're actually trying to accomplish your objective then yes you need to do what it takes given the reality as it presents itself rather than trying to squeeze blood from a stone.

As to "how", it takes a lot of legwork to track down the large high-quality expensive contractors that are used by the top developers targeting westerners, and yes even then you need to personally exercise tight quality control measures yourself to double-check, have incentives built into the contracts etc.

And that kind of work will easily cost 5x or even 10x the shoddy norm, and you still won't get perfection.

[HeavyDrinker]

Oh, I get it, it's my fault for either not paying enough or not standing there and supervising every little thing they do. What does "willing to pay for excellence" even mean? How do you know whether the guy does good work or not until he completes the job. When you mention "tradesmanship", is there such a thing? Do people actually undergo apprenticeships. Try asking the next "tradesman" that you use for his qualifications. Sorry, but I hear to many horror stories from falangs (and myself)who have had shoddy jobs done not to believe that that Thai workmen who take pride in a job well done are thin on the ground

How would you find a good tradesman at home?

Maybe you'd get some recommendations from pals, look at a few of his past jobs...?

Apply the same rules here. It's not Rocket Science.

I always say that the first thing a person needs to get on well here is to apply the same levels of common sense they do at home. Clearly you don't (when it comes to tradesmen in any case).

Oh no..it's that "common sense" thing rising up again....

[samran]

Oh, I get it, it's my fault for either not paying enough or not standing there and supervising every little thing they do. What does "willing to pay for excellence" even mean? How do you know whether the guy does good work or not until he completes the job. When you mention "tradesmanship", is there such a thing? Do people actually undergo apprenticeships. Try asking the next "tradesman" that you use for his qualifications. Sorry, but I hear to many horror stories from falangs (and myself)who have had shoddy jobs done not to believe that that Thai workmen who take pride in a job well done are thin on the ground.

Wake up and start to realize that you are in Thailand. Yes, it is your fault, because you should have taken lessons beforehand and realize that in Thailand, you get what you pay for and you get what you control on a constant basis. And that is not only true for you as a foreigner, but also true for all Thai who deal with workers... you want a job done the way you are used to from back home, then be onsite every minute and tell them from the beginning how you want it done and pay for it.

Indeed, watch how any Thai person worth their salt acts as an overlord when people work for them and how service providers scurry to their beck and call. Not intutive to many westerners, but you deal with what you work with.

[giddyup]

Maybe we need classes of "common sense" for the foreigners coming to stay in Thailand in order to teach them that this is the Land of the Thais and that their idea of "common sense" is different from ours and that it is utterly useless to constantly complain about, but get a life and start adjusting to the Thai way of doing it?

There are a lot of things that I don't like, but what is it worth (except high blood pressure) when I complain about things I know I can not change but rather cause conflicts because I make Thais lose their face if I interfere with their way of doing things???

So, you're quite happy to have a worker run an electric cable (or water pipe) 3 inches deep in your garden, where it's likely to be severed by a shovel, and not say a word?

[Payboy]

To quote Mark Twain, "common sense is very uncommon".

Wasn't that Voltaire?

[cardholder]

HeavyDrinker, on 21 Mar 2013 - 10:42, said:

It's also <deleted>. You've obviously never worked with any Thais....

Do you ever actually have anything constructive to say, other than just disputing someone's comments by saying "<deleted>"? If you have some contrary evidence, let's hear it.

The burden of proof doesn't actually fall on me. I'd rather you show me some evidence to support this 'hard fact' that Thais are resistant to new ideas, then I'll blow you out of the water....because things like the motor car, moving pictures, smoking tobacco never really caught on here did they...?

You forgot about the I-pads and smart phones..!!! bet the average Thai can use these devices better than the average farang wrinkly...so would say not resistant to new ideas at all..

.... and they can do it whilst driving a motorcy.

[giddyup]

Ask anyone who has used Thai "tradesmen" to renovate a house how resistant to a new idea or way of doing something they are. I tried to explain to the guy that managed to crack 4 tiles installing a shower rail, that perhaps if he had used a smaller masonry drill (like 5mm) instead of the blunt 10mm that he hammered away with, the tiles wouldn't have broken, or the guy who laid the tiles putting the imperfect tiles right where you walk in, rather than over in a corner where they wouldn't be seen etc, etc. Or the internet guy who wanted to run the cable down an inside wall rather than drill one hole and run it through from the outside. The Thais tend to take the least line of resistance, but I'm sure you will have plenty of examples to dispute this.

That's just bad tradesmanship. I'd say that's a trait found on every country on Earth laddie. I wouldn't say it was purely a Thai thing.

I'd say the real lack of common sense here was shown by you for not giving the blighter's the 'bum's rush' and showing them the door ASAP.

I've never had any bother with tradesmen here but then I'm willing to pay for excellence.

Oh, I get it, it's my fault for either not paying enough or not standing there and supervising every little thing they do. What does "willing to pay for excellence" even mean? How do you know whether the guy does good work or not until he completes the job. When you mention "tradesmanship", is there such a thing? Do people actually undergo apprenticeships. Try asking the next "tradesman" that you use for his qualifications. Sorry, but I hear to many horror stories from falangs (and myself)who have had shoddy jobs done not to believe that that Thai workmen who take pride in a job well done are thin on the ground.

Wake up and start to realize that you are in Thailand. Yes, it is your fault, because you should have taken lessons beforehand and realize that in Thailand, you get what you pay for and you get what you control on a constant basis. And that is not only true for you as a foreigner, but also true for all Thai who deal with workers... you want a job done the way you are used to from back home, then be onsite every minute and tell them from the beginning how you want it done and pay for it.

Don't be a dope, what does getting what you pay for even mean, and what are these lessons I should have taken? Every job that I've had done has been negotiable to some degree. If I think the price is fair I don't quibble, but to guarantee an excellent job, I should offer twice what he's asking? Yeah, right!

[Soutpeel]

Maybe we need classes of "common sense" for the foreigners coming to stay in Thailand in order to teach them that this is the Land of the Thais and that their idea of "common sense" is different from ours and that it is utterly useless to constantly complain about, but get a life and start adjusting to the Thai way of doing it?

There are a lot of things that I don't like, but what is it worth (except high blood pressure) when I complain about things I know I can not change but rather cause conflicts because I make Thais lose their face if I interfere with their way of doing things???

So, you're quite happy to have a worker run an electric cable (or water pipe) 3 inches deep in your garden, where it's likely to be severed by a shovel, and not say a word?

you shouldnt have paid them up front....common sense and all...

[FunFon]

Indeed, watch how any Thai person worth their salt acts as an overlord when people work for them and how service providers scurry to their beck and call. Not intutive to many westerners, but you deal with what you work with.

-

Yes my dragon landlady calls her brother who calls his friend who is a manager at a nearby 4-star hotel, both of whom come over with the hotel's maintenance supervisor and a couple of their low-level "chang" staff. Every step is micro-managed before and after, the job's done right every time.

And I later found out no cash is paid anywhere along the way, the guys actually doing the work get a couple of beers and the landlord's family owes the hotel manager a favor.

Pretty hard for us to plug into that aspect of Thai culture though isn't it

[giddyup]

Maybe we need classes of "common sense" for the foreigners coming to stay in Thailand in order to teach them that this is the Land of the Thais and that their idea of "common sense" is different from ours and that it is utterly useless to constantly complain about, but get a life and start adjusting to the Thai way of doing it?

There are a lot of things that I don't like, but what is it worth (except high blood pressure) when I complain about things I know I can not change but rather cause conflicts because I make Thais lose their face if I interfere with their way of doing things???

So, you're quite happy to have a worker run an electric cable (or water pipe) 3 inches deep in your garden, where it's likely to be severed by a shovel, and not say a word?

you shouldnt have paid them up front....common sense and all...

Where do you get this sh*t? Who said anything about paying up front? I was using an example of standing by and letting the worker do it his way rather than saying something and him losing face. Read the post a bit more carefully before you go off half-cocked.

[DavoTheGun]

My GF gets a substantial pension every month from overseas as a result of her Husband Death, The first thing she does each month after going to ATM is organize the Lottery tickets, spends about 20000Bt per month, plus gives her mother 10000Bt for lottery, then she gives her kids money, they do not work! then she goes to her local village for distribution of money among some of her "Friends" Then she may play the Slot Machine at her local shop wher she will put in 1000,s of Baht.

Then she will come back to Condo where the card game is going and spend up to 3 Days, non stop, playing spending more then 100000Bt, this routine goes on every month and has been happening the last 3 years, after 2 weeks she has run out of money, and I cover the cost of living expenses, I have been trying to get this situation under control for about 6 Months, set some limits, but without much success.

The money she has won from lottery in 6 Months is 0Baht. But it is all about Good Luck isn't it not Common Sense.

I am aware she is a compulsive gambler

She also tips big money into various Wat,s all over Thailand, for Good Luck!