Gang Raping

[longway]

Thanks for the reply kat.

I think a few things have converged. initially u said that thailand has no rule of law, it has, but the enforcement to the law varies depending on circumstances. its not great but its no as bad as many other places in the world.

in terms of your views of the taboo of sexual abuse and culture surrounding it. i feel u see a permancy of such behaviour embedded in the social underpinnings of the kingdom.

i see it as more fluid and dynamic. this patron-client culture and accompanying corruption is something that exists because of history and very importantly because people cannot do anything about it.

i would think that most ordinary people are unhappy that their lives can be arbitarily changed on the whims of a puu yai. as thais become wealthier and better educated they will demand a fairer society and i believe alot of the problems you see now will diminish substantially.

it is a cultural problem, but it continues because, as yet, ordinary people cannot do much. maybe i am wrong about what you think but this is where i am coming from.

the once isolated girl in the village, terrified to say a word, will eventually get the support and law enforcement she desrves and crimes like gang rape will diminish, it happens only because these guys believe they can get away with it.

[thaibebop]

I agree she has a point but I believe she is posting more from an emotional stand point than anything else or rather just her perception of the issue, opinion in other words.

Another incredibly laughable statement. Your posts are the epitome of emotional reactionary opinion because they are high on personal indignance and short on everything else.

*edit: in short - you are a muppet.

I always liked the muppets. It ain't easy being green, is it Kat? BTW, you are responding to me again. I thought you were the kind of girl who stuck to her guns. Anothger misunderstanding, I guess.

[Ijustwannateach]

These kinds of crimes don't only happen to women, either; they happen to men as well- and if you think it's a taboo for a woman to talk about being raped, just imagine how taboo it is for a man! Kathoeys are especially abused; they are often regarded as simply being sexually available for any man to use. In a gay advice column I've read translated into English, one of the letters related the experience of a teenage boy who was gang-raped by a group of 8 men in his village; another spoke of a small group of kathoeys who were first caught and raped by a gang of youths; one of them escaped and was on his way to the police and was raped by his tuk-tuk driver, and then the police.

I think Kat's posts on this thread are pretty reasonable and describe what I've seen of the situation here and elsewhere pretty well.

"Steven"

[kat]

Yeah, if we start to talk about male sexual exploitation, the picture is possibly more grim. Male rape is not a crime here - scratch that - it doesn't exist!

I'm still treading the surface.

*edit: Steven: I like your "miss thing" smiley face, by the way, lol.

Edited April 3, 2006 by kat

[Ijustwannateach]

Got yo' back, girlfrien'....

[AlexLah]

Hi all

Following this topic and I can't stand raising a question I have in my mind.

Maybe Kat can answer I dunno.

Have there been interviews with people that commited a gang rape and maybe where convicted?

How and what did they think and feel while doing it and how do they feel about it now?

Is it just the Mai Pen rai attidude ore do those people actually think about what they did wrong?

If they think it was wrong.

Are they being confronted day by day what they did and the consequences it have for someone?

Just wanted to ask OK.

As I not understand why people do this.

I mean what was it that triggered them to gang rape some 14 and 15 year helples girls,

I just do not get it.

Alex

Edited April 3, 2006 by AlexLah

[Bangkok Barry]

I've been through the whole five pages of this thread, and I'm amazed that no one has questioned how a 14-year old and a 15-year old were out at 4am. Do they have parents, and if so why did they allow their daughters to be out at that time.

Maybe I'm out of touch with so-called modern society, but when I was growing up in London I was made to go to bed by 10 or so, if I remember correctly. I most certainly wasn't allowed out at 4am.

But, with so-called close family values here, I don't see much of parents taking responsibilty for their kids. The kids are rarely disciplined, or just palmed off to their grandparents because their parents can't be bothered bringing them up. That's if the father hasn't gone off with another woman. Close families, huh?

What's the bet that something like that has occured here. Maybe I'm wrong, but maybe too the parents have to shoulder some of the blame for what happened. It's called RESPONSIBILITY, which doesn't appear to be a strong part of Thai culture I'm afraid.

[Jai Yen Yen]

...another spoke of a small group of kathoeys who were first caught and raped by a gang of youths; one of them escaped and was on his way to the police and was raped by his tuk-tuk driver, and then the police....

This is a joke, right? Or an urban myth? Have you any proof that this actually happened? Or did you dream it?

[Ijustwannateach]

^My source is an anonymous letter first published by a Thai advice columnist nicknamed "Uncle Go." I'm not sure if his column still appears, but an English-translated anthology was released with commentary by Peter Jackson and as far as I know is still on sale at Bookazine/Asia Books, etc. in the gay sections.

As an anonymous letter requesting advice, I can't vouch for the truth of the writer's story; however, I would doubt he would have much reason to lie. Certainly if his letter didn't ring true, I don't think "Uncle Go" would have chosen it for publication. And finally, if this story seems so incredible to you, having no better source than something published in the Thai news, why wouldn't you be equally disbelieving of the story in the opening post, since it is only a second-hand report of a Thai news story?

"Steven"

Edited April 4, 2006 by Ijustwannateach

[kat]

Got yo' back, girlfrien'....

Thanks.

Hi all

Following this topic and I can't stand raising a question I have in my mind.

Maybe Kat can answer I dunno.

Have there been interviews with people that commited a gang rape and maybe where convicted?

How and what did they think and feel while doing it and how do they feel about it now?

Is it just the Mai Pen rai attidude ore do those people actually think about what they did wrong?

If they think it was wrong.

Are they being confronted day by day what they did and the consequences it have for someone?

Just wanted to ask OK.

As I not understand why people do this.

I mean what was it that triggered them to gang rape some 14 and 15 year helples girls,

I just do not get it.

Alex

Read this article about Cambodia:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...MNGPE2JJQ81.DTL

...another spoke of a small group of kathoeys who were first caught and raped by a gang of youths; one of them escaped and was on his way to the police and was raped by his tuk-tuk driver, and then the police....

This is a joke, right? Or an urban myth? Have you any proof that this actually happened? Or did you dream it?

What is it about the story that seems like a dream to you? The fact that a Kathoey was raped by a band of teenagers, then by a tuk-tuk driver, and then the police? During my research with Burmese migrants, I met a few people that had been raped by Thai police while in custody. One was a man who had the courage to admit it (although I never saw him again and so could not follow up on the complaint to UNHCR), and he wasn't gay or a Kathoey. They were Burmese, and part of the hidden people in this society.

I admit that the above story has a lot of rapes in one night, but I know that if you are considered to be outside of the power structure and at a disadvantage, you are marked as a free-for-all under the "right" circumstances. Kathoeys are viewed as easy and for the taking, as well as any female that is deemed to be outside the norms, unprotected, or at a disadvantage (late at night, etc.). It's all about the relationship between the strong and the weak.

As far as being out late at 4 a.m., I agree that is late for teenagers. But, that does not remove the guilt from the roving, rabid pack of males that committed this crime. Do you think it would have been different if these girls were of legal age? If they are out past midnight, do they deserve to be raped? Most people in this society would not say that they deserved it, but that they should have expected it. For me, that is uncomfortably close.

I rarely take a taxi at 4 a.m., but I've had to take a taxi 3 different times here at that time, and it wasn't to the airport. The first time I had to pull out my phone and make a direct comment about the driver's registration; the second two times there was unmistakable hostility from the male drivers, because they obviously thought I was a prostititute, even though I was modestly dressed. So, there is a dangerous assumption that if you are a "decent" woman, you will not be out at that time. The contempt was palpable, and rape is mostly about violence.

But most importantly, they decide by their own assumptions who is "decent" and who is not.

[LaoPo]

Male rape is not a crime here - scratch that - it doesn't exist!

Hmmm, Kat, I don't know.....wouldn't be so sure of that.

In my country (of course I don't know about LOS) there's a big scandal going on about a guy (former Navy sailor) who was raped by a gang of guys on his navy-ship.

It's the 'top-of-the-iceberg' they claim....

I'm concinved it's happening all over the world.

LaoPo

[kat]

Well, what are you not sure of? Male rape is not a crime here, because they assume that it does not exist -- i.e. men cannot be raped, because there is no virginity to be had, or sullying of future sin sod, etc.

[LaoPo]

Well, what are you not sure of? Male rape is not a crime here, because they assume that it does not exist -- i.e. men cannot be raped, because there is no virginity to be had, or sullying of future sin sod, etc.

Kat, I wasn't referring to 'crime' or not. I was referring to male rape as such; it's odd that it is NOT a crime in LOS, isn't it?.............BBrrrrrrrrr

As so many things are odd in LOS.

LaoPo

[Jai Yen Yen]

^My source is an anonymous letter first published by a Thai advice columnist nicknamed "Uncle Go." I'm not sure if his column still appears, but an English-translated anthology was released with commentary by Peter Jackson and as far as I know is still on sale at Bookazine/Asia Books, etc. in the gay sections.

As an anonymous letter requesting advice, I can't vouch for the truth of the writer's story; however, I would doubt he would have much reason to lie. Certainly if his letter didn't ring true, I don't think "Uncle Go" would have chosen it for publication. And finally, if this story seems so incredible to you, having no better source than something published in the Thai news, why wouldn't you be equally disbelieving of the story in the opening post, since it is only a second-hand report of a Thai news story?

"Steven"

Actually, I was quite disbelieving of the opening post until I read several more posts that appeared to confirm the truth of the story.

Maybe "Uncle Go" made an error of judgement this time about the katoey?

What is it about the story that seems like a dream to you?

I should have said "nightmare", not "dream". My apologies.

The fact that a Kathoey was raped by a band of teenagers, then by a tuk-tuk driver, and then the police?

Yes, exactly. It seems unbelievably bad luck to be gang raped, then to meet an uncaring horny tuk-tuk driver and then ditto the police. Three in a row? Very unlikely. Maybe if the story had included hospital treatment and he was raped by the doctor too, you might have suspicions about its authenticity?

During my research with Burmese migrants, I met a few people that had been raped by Thai police while in custody. One was a man who had the courage to admit it (although I never saw him again and so could not follow up on the complaint to UNHCR), and he wasn't gay or a Kathoey. They were Burmese, and part of the hidden people in this society.

I understand you have a lot of experience in this area Kat. But gang-raped, then tuk-tuk driver raped and then police raped all in the same night?? Come on!

I've had to take a taxi 3 different times here at that time, and it wasn't to the airport. The first time I had to pull out my phone and make a direct comment about the driver's registration

That's exactly what I do when I pack my g/f off in a taxi - say out loud the driver's registration number. She called me once from the taxi and said that the driver had commented on the fact that I had noted his number. So they are definitely not stupid!

[kat]

I agree, Jai Yen Yen, the story does seem a little strained. But since it is a third and fourth source, we simply don't know. However, the story is not unbelievable to me.

The tuk-tuk driver and police are merely an extension of the first gang rape. A kathoey is technically a man in their eyes, and definitely comes with a reputation. We already mentioned that the law does not recognize male rape, and that reputations - whether true or assumed - can be enough to incite rape. If one is viewed as a victim or easy target, it seems to justify predatory behavior. Police behavior in this country is also well known. It is not at all far-fetched that the tuk-tuk driver and police simply piled on in the "spirit" of gang rape, to what they viewed as a free-for-all, but at different times and locations.

[shadowy]

I live on that road... i went to that fair.

Some one was stabbed a couple of months ago for his necklace too.

My husband said it was lao people....

SCary stuff

[bulmercke]

...

yes, it is true that lust and such viles don't have particular national or racila identification. and yet, somehow in Asia so far it has been much less such things than in the West. looks like things gonna change soon, and already are changing.

Rape is widely spread in Asia. I used to find it rather old fashioned, the way the teenage girls in particular are guarded, but I've come to understand more of the background to this over the years. Maybe you don't read about it so often in the media.

"Lust and such viles" have little to do with a public gang-rape. It's mostly about power, intimidation, violence and violation. - think about it: if you were 'lusting' after sex, is this what you would get into?

Spot-on. Incidentally, I live on Phracha-Uthit Road which the OP refers to. And the road which is particularly long is plagued, particularly after dark, with scores of teenage motorcyclists - who seem to spend most of their free-time (which is most of the day and night) buzzing round on their fizzies with nothing better to do. There are a lot of gangs in this area. And I think a lot of attacks go unreported.

Off topic - but hey - zzap - we look similar!

[moonoi]

...

yes, it is true that lust and such viles don't have particular national or racila identification. and yet, somehow in Asia so far it has been much less such things than in the West. looks like things gonna change soon, and already are changing.

Rape is widely spread in Asia. I used to find it rather old fashioned, the way the teenage girls in particular are guarded, but I've come to understand more of the background to this over the years. Maybe you don't read about it so often in the media.

"Lust and such viles" have little to do with a public gang-rape. It's mostly about power, intimidation, violence and violation. - think about it: if you were 'lusting' after sex, is this what you would get into?

Spot-on. Incidentally, I live on Phracha-Uthit Road which the OP refers to. And the road which is particularly long is plagued, particularly after dark, with scores of teenage motorcyclists - who seem to spend most of their free-time (which is most of the day and night) buzzing round on their fizzies with nothing better to do. There are a lot of gangs in this area. And I think a lot of attacks go unreported.

Off topic - but hey - zzap - we look similar!

OK I know off topic, but just wanted to know coz I've never seen any.......can you get fizzies here? The old Yama FS1E (hence fizzie)? or are you just referring to low cc scooters?

Back on topic, very informative thread. I agree with Kats' analysis of thai cultural behaviour appearing to condone these crimes. To blame the victims for being out at 4am is not a excuse for what happened and allows the purpotrators (spelling?) to get away without a guilty consceience "Well she shouldn't have been out that late at night so its not my fault" and the lack of punishment by law for this crime doesn't help where is the deterant?

If it was culturally unacceptable then those committing the crimes would be punished and rejected by society, if not by law but they are not (the victims are). I even find it strange that Thai soaps/dramas quite often trivialise rape even making jokes about it.

Edited May 9, 2006 by moonoi

[Scott]

I live near this area. I didn't hear anything until I read this thread. I do know that this area is not particularly safe. There are a lot of factory workers, construction workers, unemployed people and former yaa baa sellers/users in the area. I know quite a few Thai people (men) who are afraid of walking home alone at night--and they are not the type to be afraid, but they tell stories of people being robbed quite frequently.

My thoughts are with the victims.