Who's Who At The Oz Embassy

[chareehusbee]

and say that u have a fear that people may abuse the system if they know what they can do.

Abuse of the system is why this process is so long and thorough as it is!

While abuse of any system is almost a certainty, the real solution is not to make the process more difficult but to fine-tune and streamline it to make it as efficient and robust as possible.

Gee, you can tell I'm in IT huh...

[Mighty Mouse]

MM what happens if all else fails? Who do you call! Ghostbusters.

Its good to see that you express yourself honestly, and say that u have a fear that people may abuse the system if they know what they can do.

First, I did not mention anything about "abusing the system."

If the system allows you to make enquiries, make them.

By attending the interview with your case officer, you are able to ascertain just what enquiries you can make and how to make them. Your case officer MAY give you her email contact address, or direct telephone number, if there is some urgency with your application.

If not, you just have to wait....patiently if you can.

What happens if all else fails? You still have the ombudsman. He is the official watchdog.

.....and if the big failure comes through, (rejection of visa) you have the appeal process.

[gburns57au]

Thanks for your reply Graham

I didnt realise u were psychic; didnt even know myself that I was going to use such terminology in my last post. Its not flattering terminology, agreed, but I have seen it before as descriptive wording for such roles in a social context before.

This terminology is usually used and meant in a derogatory way...

Acting as an advocate, which you appear to be aluding too, is the supply of power? Another word common in a socail context is what is called a "gatekeeper". Gatekeepers only let out the information they believe is fair and proper. Depending on the agenda of the gatekeeper, u may not be getting all the information that is available.

I am not acting as an advocate, nor is anyone else...we are merely giving advice and trying to assist based on our own experiences...your advice is as welcome as the next mans.

All I hoped for was the information that I had obtained could be put out there. Unfortunatly, my process was to also give some feeling to what I thought. This is no reflexion to what this topic should be. The reason I put my experience in was to highlight some of the injustice's that could occur.

The contact info you gave was great, no doubt about that and I am sure many members will thank you for the info...the feeling you put into your posts shows the frustration that you felt with the system...

Again power should be used with regard to the context it is being directed at. Knowledge of who is who in the embassy may assist someone achieve a result. I take your point that a well planned application will go smoothly; however there are some that aren't smooth, but are well planned. When the question is asked you wait 4-6 weeks and no reply is forthcoming what do you do? You ask the question again, still you are ignored! Frustration creeps in, doubt, fear, your emotions are highly senced. You start to become irrational. You just want a civil reply. You want to talk to a civil minded person. This is where some of the information here may help.

By providing some of this information smooth sailing applicants may begin to sence fear, reading such a topic because they may see this as cue jumping, jeapodising their waiting time. I do not advocate this. But it may happen.

I agree....the question is when is it reasonable to use the knowledge ??...unfortunately people do become irrational and start misusing the info, which in the end does nobody any good. Sometimes people will use the info inappropriately, hoping to queue jump or to try and hustle to try to put pressure on the Embassy staff, These are the usually the people who have weak applications in process. What most of us advise here is to put in a strong well planned and well presented application in the first place, then apply patience...but if there are unreasonable delays then most of us agree that enquiries should be made...and then further action as required.

If the Dept. became more transparent in their dealings, then we would not have to hypothesize what is the numbers, how busy etc, the Dept is. In saying this I also realise some of the difficulties this brings the Dept.into, but I believe it can be done.

Yes it can....by doing what we are doing here.....one person will get only a small amount of info from the department...on his own it means little....but a lot of people getting a little info and putting that info together in a forum means that people have access to more info about a wider range of issues....this helps others in their preparation and also to foresee obstacles that may not only cause rejection but also become costly.

The new visa service I have read in some of the past posts appeard to be a 'real dogs body'. Wasn't there some complaints made about this? Has this service now improved? Has this cut the cues at the embassy? What would have happened if no one made a complaint?

Yes it did get some bad reviews initially, but any new service will get that at first...it takes a while for them to sort out the bugs, I work in a private company that took over a previously government run service...There were a lot of problems at first but it is better now. My experience with them is all positive as is most I have heard of recently. By your post I take it that your application was pre Vfs days ??....

If nothing changes nothing changes.

Don't get me wrong I am no misanthropist, but I believe in calling a spade a spade when I see one.

I hope that people can use some of this information. I also hope that the system does improve. On all accounts it can do with it.

[Chris Lawrence]

MM what happens if all else fails? Who do you call! Ghostbusters.

Its good to see that you express yourself honestly, and say that u have a fear that people may abuse the system if they know what they can do.

First, I did not mention anything about "abusing the system."

If the system allows you to make enquiries, make them.

By attending the interview with your case officer, you are able to ascertain just what enquiries you can make and how to make them. Your case officer MAY give you her email contact address, or direct telephone number, if there is some urgency with your application.

If not, you just have to wait....patiently if you can.

What happens if all else fails? You still have the ombudsman. He is the official watchdog.

.....and if the big failure comes through, (rejection of visa) you have the appeal process.

Ahh MM u have a sence of humor. I was going to put that but I thought it would have been cynical to your post.

From what I have read in this forum people like your goodself and GBurns apear to be stalwarts, showing immense compassion and guidance to many a fellow human being lost in this tangled web of Visa applications. We need more people like your goodself's.

One of my shortcoings is that I do suffer with foot in mouth, but eventually will get my point out there. Reflecting on my original post I would probably be more sensitive to the plight of others, particulary the ones just starting out. But isn't this what it is about. Our learning curve.

Its a difficult subjest to take on, particulary when such information is hard to obtain. I agree with both of u, contacts need to be used wisely.

The discussion that I have seen here has further helped in my education. The frustration that I have put out thru my posts has been in part to the anger I built up with dealing with DIMA. I also see this as part of a healing process, because under the anger is pain and agony. If that is what this forum can also offer a place to hear yourself then its a good place to be. Some people may not put up with it, but my feathers are still in tact.

I enjoyed reading your' GBurns comments as I do see them as being insightful and with knowledge attached.

Kind regards

Chris

[Mighty Mouse]

From the day we are born to the day we die we are forced to deal with government departments. We can always identify areas within the various departments where improvements could be made.

Chris, we all know exactly how frustrating it can be when you just want to live your life with the partner of your dreams, only to have your dreams put on hold awaiting a government decision.

The frustrating thing about it is that there is very little you can do. Jumping up and down rarely gets you anywhere.

It's probably better to practice the Thai way: 'Jai yen yen.'

That at least helps your blood pressure.

I would like to commend Graham on his excellent answers in his last post. We can all learn something from them.

[awarrumbungle]

I would like to make a "nice" and "informative" complaint about my exeriences with the embassy but particularly the VFS. Can anyone suggest who I should be sending this too?

[skippybangkok]

I had the same problems with VFS. Very arrogant girl ( with lots of pimples) behind the counter. Managed to call the first secretary and complain ( had to verbally bash ina few doors before they connected me ). He was nice, and "concerned", and would look into it. Never heard from him again.

I guess its good to be in the government, live off the back of others ( tax ) and dont have to care about anything. I used to go the the SunRiser ( oops downer ) events, where there were alot of them. They seem to be very active, mainly in promoting them selves and lobbying for the next level.

Went on a business trip many years ago up north with the embassy, and was amazed at our "officals". Were very insistent into going into go-go bars, and acted like kids in a candy shop. Since I was the only one who spoke Thai, I was asked to baby sit them. After midnight had enough, and tried to get them out of the place to go back to the hote, which was not a popular guesture. Finally told them they can find their own way home or come with me ( since they could not converse and had no idea where they were, had no choice really ).

Such are our public officials.

Edited March 29, 2006 by skippybangkok

[vinny]

I would like to make a "nice" and "informative" complaint about my exeriences with the embassy but particularly the VFS. Can anyone suggest who I should be sending this too?

I suggest H.E. Mr. William Paterson, Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Commonwealth of Australia.

[PaulPerth]

All I can say is that I recently obtained our visa as a direct result of the advise given on this forum. It prompted me to make contact (by email) but I did it in a soflty softly manner with respect for the difficult situation embassy staff are in whilst processing applications made by people who are then in a high state of anxiety.

The contribution made here by the "stalwarts" (Graham, Chris, MM, Charee and others) is absolutely invaluable. The anxious state we get ourselves in to can bely any rationale thought abilities that we once possessed! Reading the advice given by these guys brings you back in to line enabling one to see things "more clearly"!

I admire the fact that you guys take the time to present your selves on this forum out of empathy for the visa transients! ANY opinion or advice based on previous expereince in dealing with this process is valuable.

Many thanks

Paul

[Chris Lawrence]

awarrumbungle I suggest, to write a letter of complaint, it is not always the best to send it to the person u are complaining about. If you want to let DIMA Bangkok know about your complaint you could send a letter to Rob Chambers, the Senior Migration Officer. You may like to add a cc (carbon copy) to Damien Kilner, the new PMO. This can be emailed.

Be clear in what u write, stick to the facts and try not to be too emotive. However, some decisions do present an outcome that can have an effect on the individual; this can be seen as emotive but it can also point out the obvious. If you ask me to do x, then I will need to do y.

Get someone to proof read for you. Sometimes you can find yourself doing a few drafts.

Also if anyone has had a good experience with the Dept here, let them know. It also helps to hear what u are doing right.

The position that vinny posted seems as the Dept is looking to review their practices here?

[Chris Lawrence]

All I can say is that I recently obtained our visa as a direct result of the advise given on this forum. It prompted me to make contact (by email) but I did it in a soflty softly manner with respect for the difficult situation embassy staff are in whilst processing applications made by people who are then in a high state of anxiety.

The contribution made here by the "stalwarts" (Graham, Chris, MM, Charee and others) is absolutely invaluable. The anxious state we get ourselves in to can bely any rationale thought abilities that we once possessed! Reading the advice given by these guys brings you back in to line enabling one to see things "more clearly"!

I admire the fact that you guys take the time to present your selves on this forum out of empathy for the visa transients! ANY opinion or advice based on previous expereince in dealing with this process is valuable.

Many thanks

Paul

Thanks Paul. Your win gives a lot of comfort as well; good to hear. The feeling is like a good lotto win!

We fly back to Sydney on the 9/04, after spending nearly 12 months in Chiangrai and an extra billy lid. Looking foward to getting back to work. Not to thrilled being the home engineer.

Regards

Chris

[chareehusbee]

All I can say is that I recently obtained our visa as a direct result of the advise given on this forum. It prompted me to make contact (by email) but I did it in a soflty softly manner with respect for the difficult situation embassy staff are in whilst processing applications made by people who are then in a high state of anxiety.

The contribution made here by the "stalwarts" (Graham, Chris, MM, Charee and others) is absolutely invaluable. The anxious state we get ourselves in to can bely any rationale thought abilities that we once possessed! Reading the advice given by these guys brings you back in to line enabling one to see things "more clearly"!

I admire the fact that you guys take the time to present your selves on this forum out of empathy for the visa transients! ANY opinion or advice based on previous expereince in dealing with this process is valuable.

Many thanks

Paul

Thanks man. But I am just a mere disciple like you, following in the footsteps (and on the coat-tails!) of the masters themselves (Mr Burns, Chris, Bronco, Mighty, etc). What a lonely journey it would have been without TV.com huh!

[Douggie Style]

All great posts on a great topic, so will keep it short

Bangkok embassies (visa section) service is notorius, however believe it or not other embassies visa sections are much worse!!

Some of the reasons for problems include the 'local culture' of the embassy (service is not as one would expect if in Australia , arrogant local staff, elements bordering on vindictiveness, communications difficulties) an ingrained attitude of we are here to 'keep out', ie suspect everything until proven, failures to investigate properly, sloppy incomplete applications, failure of applicants to appreciate how long delays can occur from a single missing item, overworked staff, changing management etc etc

Some observations

Keep cool, play for the long game

ALWAYS Lodge a complete application (as far as possible), sloppy ones, lacking in evidences naturally get delayed, it also makes work for your case officer which makes them grumpy. List any elements still to come, send them together not in a dribble.

Record every contact with embassy in writing (hand written diary is good) with brief details

COPY EVERYTHING LODGED

Local officers can be very arrogant/rude, usually all a lot of bluff, my experience is they will quickly pull their heads in if you quietly tell them you are entitled to better service under DIMA/APS (see below) charter (address points) and if continues report any inappropriateness to an Aussie supervisor in writing

Don't get offended if they are suspicious, simply their training, either let it roll past or ask them directly what are their suspicions/problem, then address it

Call regularly but not over regularly and ask them if there is a reason for the delay and what they still need, ask them when if is appropriate to call back, surprisingly can be very productive

Complaining and softly softly both work when applied at the right time and situation, treat them as tools in your arsenal, apply the right tool at the right time

A well written respectful complaint usually does work (to some degree) and does not result in ‘payback’

If you complain, do it in writing, be unemotional and deal with facts, list chronology of problem and details (indicates you are serious)

There are published approximate timelines for action (DIMA website) , appreciate they do need adequate processing time, and complaints about tardiness before this timer has expired will usually get short shrift

DIMA publishes world wide staff contact lists on website

The hierarchy is case officer, supervisor, SMO, PMO

Deal with the SMO first re serious complaints, email is possibly quickest, CO or supervisor for less serious

(if it still exists) check out the APS charter, it lists standards of Cth staff behaviour, not sure if it applies to local Thai embassy staff, a sustained complaint stays on staffs personal record, a serious career stain

Your local MP can be very helpful (they often have a very experienced staff member just for this area)

The ombudsman has powers involving incessant delays (rarely used but if you can get him involved usually solved quickly)

Secretary to the Minister can be very good, be aware is basically as high as you can go within DIMIA system, use with caution and support complaint properly (otherwise will just send it back to embassy or get a stock answer)

Keep posting, the more incompetence that is exposed the more power to anyone ever abused!!!

Good luck.

[Chris Lawrence]

I like your style doggie. Well put.

I have just spent the last few months dealing with a few govt. dept. back here in Oz. What a relief to speak to people that show some compasion and understanding. If we do as doggie say's 'the more incompetence that is exposed the more power to anyone ever abused!!!'.

The need is always to identify culture that has been set up to serve the people who serve us. If it is bad then say it is bad. Sometimes people will support this culture because they believe it is the only one they are entitled to, or that it serves them the best.

I understand that DIMA was to appoint a new officer in Bangkok to handle problems with delay.Has anyone dealt with them or seen this new person? Have they been appointed? Remember its your right to have clear and transparent communication. The principles for service always remain the same.

Keep posting information that shows the pathway in DIMA. You will help them to improve service.

[jobsworth]

Hello All,

I also deal with Gemma Jackson.

[email protected]

Here is my latest email to her:-

"Hello Gemma Jackson,

Last year I was refused an electronic visa.

This year I was again refused an electronic visa.

(application number 4803031)

We met last year on or about 20th June 2005.

You very kindly gave me a sticker visa for one year to Australia.

At the time you told me that there was something about me on your

computer but that you could not tell me what it was.

I was informed in London that there was somebody by the same name

aged 25 who had overstayed.

You needed to meet me.

I am 61 years old so do not match the profile.

I did not in fact visit Australia but would still like to do so.

Again I have applied for an electronic visa through the Internet

and again I have been refused.

Please can I meet with you again

hopefully to resolve the matter.

Best wishes

John Black

UK passport 093132391"

I think that Australia is a beautiful country and I love the people.

But they are making it so difficult for people

to go there that Thailand wins every time.

As you know the Australians in Bangkok have 2 places;

the embassy and a sort of travel agency staffed by Thai people

on the top floor of the China building

near Patpong or Suraposon? MRT station

who are supposed to preprocess all applications.

They make it deliberately difficult for Thai people.

The attitude of the travel agency was very stuffy and unhelpful.

They retained my passport for 2 weeks and then said that they had lost it.

It is also an expensive place.

1,000 Baht for this and 2,000 Baht for that.

On one occasion I was assaulted by the Thai security staff.

They were armed with steel tennis rackets to detect metal objects on a person.

I was struck very hard and painfully on the thigh.

Also the Thai staff would hide their id tags which were worn around

the neck and throw them over their shoulders.

Especially when my demands for the return of my passport

became to loud.

I was asked by Gemma Jackson who had done this

and told her that they hid their ids.

This is obviously standard procedure.

But since there are video cameras everywhere they must know who is doing this.

I never wish to visit this travel agency again.

[Needthevisa]

Hello Chris,

Could you please inform me if Rob Chambers is still currently employed at the Australian embassy in Bangkok. If so, I would like to contact him, and would appreciate if you could forward me details of how to best contact him.

Thanks

From Thailady

[Mighty Mouse]

Embassy staff come and go but as long as they remain working for Immigration, their email addy stays the same.

If you are now in Australia, you can phone the Immigration office in your capital city and they will tell you where Rob Chambers is now located and provide his email address.

[Needthevisa]

Hi, Im in Thailand now ..... can you tell me about who i can contact (Australian officer) in the embassy? (sorry my English not well)

Thailady

[Mighty Mouse]

If you want to email the Australian Embassy, Bangkok, their email addy is: [email protected]

Gemma Jackson is still in Bangkok: [email protected]

Calvin Jackson is or was the Second Secretary of Immigration:

[email protected]

Judging by those email addy's for the others, I suggest that the email addy for Rob Chambers would be: [email protected] but that is a guess.

[Needthevisa]

Thank you so much

[CbrLad]

Embassy staff come and go but as long as they remain working for Immigration, their email addy stays the same.

If you are now in Australia, you can phone the Immigration office in your capital city and they will tell you where Rob Chambers is now located and provide his email address.

Not quite. When Immigration staff return home they revert to the Immigration network which has addresses, I think that end in @immi.gov.au. They only have DFAT addresses when posted overseas.

[mark lamai]

interesting and intelligent comments guys.

what about the other reason for the snail's pace.

the unofficial gov policy.

"all asian women are prostitutes and we don't want them in australia"

"all other asian women divorce you after 12 months and bring their family here and we don't want them"

i have limited experience.

years ago in melb. just asking about a TV for a Myanmar woman, the young lass said to me,

"yeah, they all wanna come here"

Application was denied,

review only done after I asked a gov. minister I know to assist.

how long does it take for a USA wife i wonder?

I am an oz citizen and I know how racist my current government and fellow citizens are.

as for the quality of the staff my only insight was the chap from the hanoi embassy i met on arriving in Yangon, in taxi into town, his only questions were where he could find prostitutes and if he can take them to his hotel.

[Chris Lawrence]

Early this year the Aust Embassy advertised for a new position abt 60000 baht pcm to be a medium for applicants of visa' between front counter staff and the aussie staff (among other duties of course). Part of the job discription indicated that people that wanting to find out information about their application could contact this person? Has anyone got an update as to this person or if they were appointed?

[Khutan]

I have read this thread with great interest.

Rather than have another non-constructive rant about the Australian Embassy in BKK and their methods, I was thinking about the difference in Visa processing between the same type of Visa for Thailand and Australia.

Another thought that comes to mind is the difference in attitude concerning the Visa's. Australia seems to take this rather precious attitude and in some way they are more special than any other country. This is then augmented by the compliccated and lengthy process to get any kind of visa.

The policy is at a minimum discrimination. Its another example of the institutionalised xenaphobia of the Australian government. As an examle If my wife came from England or the USA, it is simple to get a tourist Visa, if one is required at all. The following countries can apply for the Electronic Visa. But if your partner is outside these countries, then really you are not going to have an easy time.

* Andorra .... * Iceland .... * Portugal

* Austria .... * Ireland .... * San Marino

* Belgium .... * Italy .... * Singapore

* Brunei .... * Japan .... * South Korea

* Canada .... * Liechtenstein .... * Spain

* Denmark .... * Luxembourg .... * Sweden

* Finland .... * Malaysia .... * Switzerland

* France .... * Malta .... * United Kingdom

* Germany .... * Monaco .... * United States Of America

* Greece .... * Netherlands .... * Vatican City

* Hong Kong SAR .... * Norway

The tennant in Australia that all people are equal etc, does not seem to translate to Immigration policy.

[gburns57au]

This is a place where we can find out who to contact at the embassy....if you want to discuss goverment immigration policies or other subjects...then do it in the main area....

[Chris Lawrence]

This is a place where we can find out who to contact at the embassy....if you want to discuss goverment immigration policies or other subjects...then do it in the main area....

What was the point of the post khutan? How can things be improved?

[gburns57au]

This is a place where we can find out who to contact at the embassy....if you want to discuss goverment immigration policies or other subjects...then do it in the main area....

What was the point of the post khutan? How can things be improved?

This is not the place for this discussion....

[Chris Lawrence]

This is a place where we can find out who to contact at the embassy....if you want to discuss goverment immigration policies or other subjects...then do it in the main area....

What was the point of the post khutan? How can things be improved?

This is not the place for this discussion....

Graham, is this a "flaming" comment. I just re read the forum rules and I can't see where it said the reply was not appropriate.

Maybe Khatan had some further constructive ways of dealing with the DIMA staff? I don't know. When I started the original post I was hoping to see if people had some other ways of dealing with DIMA in Bangkok; one of the ways was to get to know the staff.

The other was a forum where people could share their thoughts. Many people can be affected by the political process both their spirit and their emotions. Sometimes first timers to the forum may find it hard to put this down; go easy on their spirit, I know I wouldn't want to break them any more.

The fact of the matter is that DIMA does go about their business in a strange way, as reported by the Ombudsman's annual report. A rational person may draw the conclusion that the Department acts in a rascist way?

I just think it was great that a legacy of the problems that I shared in this forum continue here. The more the shortcomings of a service are exposed the better for all.

Anyway did you find out about the person who was appointed to the new position?

[gburns57au]

Graham, is this a "flaming" comment. I just re read the forum rules and I can't see where it said the reply was not appropriate.

I had forgotten that this started as a general post but was pinned after some good info was given, so my apologies for that...

I think a "Whos who at the Embassy" is a great idea....keeping up to date contacts at Immigration and the Embassy who can assist with application enquiries when the need arises for it, without having to trawl through piles of posts to find them.

Perhaps a current list could be compiled and a new pinned thread started...

Edited September 5, 2006 by gburns57au

[Manly73]

I like your style doggie. Well put.

I have just spent the last few months dealing with a few govt. dept. back here in Oz. What a relief to speak to people that show some compasion and understanding. If we do as doggie say's 'the more incompetence that is exposed the more power to anyone ever abused!!!'.

The need is always to identify culture that has been set up to serve the people who serve us. If it is bad then say it is bad. Sometimes people will support this culture because they believe it is the only one they are entitled to, or that it serves them the best.

I understand that DIMA was to appoint a new officer in Bangkok to handle problems with delay.Has anyone dealt with them or seen this new person? Have they been appointed? Remember its your right to have clear and transparent communication. The principles for service always remain the same.

Keep posting information that shows the pathway in DIMA. You will help them to improve service.

I have only recently joined this forum and have read with great interest all the comments from forum members.

I want to thank everyone who has posted so much helpful info.

My experience is as follows.

My girlfriend applied for a visitor visa in mid may this year. I helped her with the app and we supplied photo's, emails and ph accounts to support the app.

It was approved in less than 2 weeks!!

We only asked for a two week visa but were granted a visitor visa for 12mnths with multiple entries permitted max stay 3 mnths per stay.

The CO was a Kuh Sutin very helpful lady indeed.

After my ladies holiday here we returned to Thailand and married in Udon Thani on 5th July.

Couldn't register the marriage due to lack of time and me missing some doc's.

We still lodged the SV app at VFS anyway. No probs their quite helpful.

A few days after I rang the embassy and on first attempt got our case officer a Kuhn Varisa. Explained what had happened and that we would marry in Oz when we returned{ which we did however have to give a mnths notice, married 25th Aug} she was very understanding and said would process app and pls call her when we had a marriage date booked so that she could schedule our SV interview{ by then I couldn't believe how easy this was going}.

Low and behold we are back in Oz for 1 week and she calls us wanting to book our SV interview{she had forgotten she spoke to me in LOS} finally it all clicks and she books our interview for the 5th Sept. Sends a letter to confirm this I am speechless!!!!

We go up to LOS and attend the interview on the 5th Sept it goes really well.

She asks how long are we staying and I tell her till Friday{ have to go back EaglesvSwans sat nite!!} she says wish you could stay longer as visa may be granted within 10days. I apologise profusely. She says maipenrai I will do my best and will call you Thurs to let you know how it is going. We are thrilled and gobsmacked this is to good too be true.

She rings Wed @ 10.00am says the SV is approved come and get it Thurs. UNBELIEVABLE!!!

The whole process took 2 months max.

We prepared a good app plenty of supporting info eg Stat Dec's' photo's' ph bills and evidence of jnt accounts.

In summary I can only say that the service from the Visitor Visa thru to the Spouse Visa has been first class.

I was prepared for 4-6 mnths but 2 mnths is a dream come true.

Hope this helps anyone.

My best advice proper planning prevents piss poor performance. Be humble always and don't rock the boat unless you really have no choice.

Go the EAGLES!!