Very Wrongfull Decision By Ukba....wifes Resident Status Refused.

[Jay Sata]

Looking at wiki I see

A European Economic Area Family Permit (short: EEA family permit) is an immigration document that permits the holder to enter the United Kingdom as the dependent of a citizen of the European Economic Area (EEA). They are issued under the authority of free movement provisions of the Treaty of Rome and European Law. Additionally, dependents of citizens of Switzerland can also apply for this document although Switzerland is not a member of the EEA. A family permit can be issued for both a short term visit and/or to enable to holder to take up residence in the UK. As the documents are only valid for six months a person seeking to remain in the UK will need to apply for residence documentation from the UK Border Agency.

It appears to me that the OP's spouse entered on a permit which has now expired and the UKBA have declined further stay.

Asiansun

its also a stern warning to anyone wishing to bring wife back to uk what you have to deal with regarding visa,s and dealing with ukba , or anyone else making PR application or any application for that fact to ukba, make sure you guys have everything 100 % in order and give yourselves plenty of time to get papers submitted etc, also be patient if you can because you will be pulling your hair out ( it has been hell !! )

I can only comment on my experience 13 years ago which was easy.

It appears if the paperwork is in order then things go well.

no valid visa. as i have told you allready ukba said she must make plans now to leave uk.

What exactly does it mean when the UK Border Agency say you must make plans to leave? Is there a right to appeal?

Could the OP move to Ireland for work and get another EEA permit for his spouse?

Edited June 1, 2013 by Jay Sata

[asiansun]

I, too, am puzzled by what the OP has said; but requests to him for clarification have, like in his previous topic, remained unanswered; so our puzzlement continues!

you say i have not given you a reason why she was refused ? ive given it a few times, have you read my posts ? please read again, it clearly states the reason. and yes i can tell my wife to apply for another 5 year residence stamp which probably would be easier but not in the long run, if she is granted permanent residence then after another 2 years she can apply for citizenship ( i think ) if she gets another 5 year residence stamp then she must wait another 5 years to apply for PR ( i think ) but then again thats why i am on here.

anyway i will leave it in hands of lawyer . this topic is closed as far as i am concerned , i have outlined the reason for refusal.

[Jay Sata]

I don't think she can apply for another permit as she would be refused again.

Just wondering why you did not apply for a spouse visa like we all do.

[jbrain]

I, too, am puzzled by what the OP has said; but requests to him for clarification have, like in his previous topic, remained unanswered; so our puzzlement continues!

you say i have not given you a reason why she was refused ? ive given it a few times, have you read my posts ? please read again, it clearly states the reason. and yes i can tell my wife to apply for another 5 year residence stamp which probably would be easier but not in the long run, if she is granted permanent residence then after another 2 years she can apply for citizenship ( i think ) if she gets another 5 year residence stamp then she must wait another 5 years to apply for PR ( i think ) but then again thats why i am on here.

anyway i will leave it in hands of lawyer . this topic is closed as far as i am concerned , i have outlined the reason for refusal.

Your story has so many similarities including dates of visa expiry and your attitude of a previous poster named Dmax Scorpio.

[sustento]

One of the foundations of our democracy is that all are equal before the law.

I, for one, would hate to see this eroded by a person applying to settle in the UK be given special treatment simply because they or their sponsor knew what you describe as an 'important person' or because their sponsor has a high income or is otherwise wealthy.

and why are people who have a sponsor given preference?

I can imagine the UK visa services to lack resources to properly examine everything. Speeding up would allow for more request to be examined with the same resources.

There is triage when medical emergencies occur, it's a bit the same thing.

Regarding the financial side, I find it absolutely normal that net contributors to the country's budget (plus people who would be exempt from this rule, such as pensioners, etc.) should be given priority in the processing.

Picture this: someone who doesn't owe tax invites people into the country, and these people are very likely to also not owe tax (i.e. freeloader attracts more freeloaders).

Besides the fact that I don't talk about barring these people from applying, isn't it true that these are exactly those immigrants that are not desired, because they are likely to burden the state even more?

I hold the belief that voting rights should be given to people who are net contributors to the budget through the taxes they pay.

Benjamin Franklin said “When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.”

Very truly, that's what the western democracies have promoted and what happened in many countries in Western Europe.

The right to vote needs to be tied to taxation.

And I see nothing scandalous in giving priority to people who do pay tax.

Everyone who buys stuff in the UK (apart from a small number of categories) pays tax.

[MrZM]

I would have thought that a court decision would take precedence over the ukba deporting her. Surely the ukba must abide by that decision which they lost,

Her case has not been to court; that was her child's.

I think; the OP's posting style makes it difficult to say for sure.

Mr. ZM, not sure what you mean by "It may be good for some. In my opinion it's a stupid rule."

Are you saying that

• those who remain in the UK illegally should not be deported;
• that non British criminals should not be deported,
• both or
• neither?

Or are you referring to the EEA regulations on freedom of movement?

If so, remember that those rights apply equally to British citizens living in other EEA countries.

To be honest I don't know. Maybe I have not fully understood the topic.

Simply though all rules contradict themselves.

Ie a spouse visa, I need to have minimum of £18,600 income to meet the requirements, yet another example if you receive a certain benefit and maybe only get £300-£500 a month they are exempt. It doesn't make sense.

Next from my understanding of this topic, because this man has dual nationality Irish and British he is able to bypass what I have been through with no cost and his wife and child are in the UK living. (This is nothing against anyone). (The op says he has gone through hell with court cases etc but wouldn't it just be easier if he went through the spouse visa, in my eyes it makes more sense, and he would have had a lot less hassle. Sounds like he has spent more on lawyers etc then what any visa would cost)

This doesn't make sense to me.

Therefore I think the EEA rule is a bit silly. If you have a British passport and wish to reside in the country why shouldn't they go through the same process as others.

Only my opinion

[Jay Sata]

Shoot me down if I'm wrong but it appears the OP has tried to circumvent the rules and it has backfired.

Maybe one of the experts here can answer the question is it possible to get ILR via a backdoor EEA permit?

[theblether]

Looks like a dog chasing it's tail.

I don't know why people can't just answer the questions clearly, especially in this most important sub-forum. So many people take so much time to give generously of their experience and get messed about to this extent.

It's out of order.

[NanLaew]

The only thing the OP appears to have repeated is how his wife's daughter won a court case where a UKBA decision only relevant for the wife's daughter was overturned on appeal. Based on this, he makes repeated assertions that they can't now deport the mother; separation from sole care giver, etc..

The OP has subsequently stated that it appears that the latest UKBA rejection for the spouse is based on some 'clerical oversight' on the paperwork he provided that support HIS qualification to be his spouses sponsor. The OP insists that this same paperwork worked for the daughter's appeal. However, the current UKBA refusal the absolutely NOTHING to do with the daughter's case.

Not being overly familiar with either the formal or 'back door' procedures that the OP appears to have chosen to legalize his spouses residential status, all I can comment on is his repeated assertion of the lawyers 'rolling their eyes'. If the lawyers gave the OP guarantees that this was all going to be a mere formality, I only hope that the OP has pulled the lawyers hand out of his pocket until they prove their worth. They either got it wrong or the UKBA got it wrong.

[hhgz]

" anyway i will leave it in hands of lawyer . this topic is closed as far as i am concerned"

EXCELLENT !!

[bangkockney]

I think the OP should be cut some slack.

He hasn't tried to game the system, or circumvent the rules. He hasn't tried anything underhand.

UKBA issued his wife a Permit previously so there's clearly no funny busines on the OP's part.

OP mentions the court case for his wife's daughter because of the same reason for refusal: not resident for 5 years in the UK under the relevant rules. Clearly not true as the child's decision was overturned.

So, the OP could have been more succinct, but the details are there for those that care to look. I find the harsh criticism to be neither particularly useful nor representative of the general vibe of this sub-forum.

Seems to me he's been messed about by UKBA and many members here love to rub it in because the rules allowed him to take advantage of dual-nationality.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Think the OP just wanted to blow-off some steam, fair enough in my book.

Of course, there could have been an error in the preparation of the application, but even a refusal in this instance would seem harsh, without further contact from UKBA, considering the history.

<flame shield up>

Edited June 2, 2013 by bangkockney

[fatboy26]

no cbr, i have never resided in ireland ( south ireland ) i resided in a northern ireland when i was a kid for a while, i have allways allways resided in uk,

anyway , i am not letting this topic go downhill any longer . back to court we go.

Probably a good idea.

[fatboy26]

I think the OP should be cut some slack.

He hasn't tried to game the system, or circumvent the rules. He hasn't tried anything underhand.

UKBA issued his wife a Permit previously so there's clearly no funny busines on the OP's part.

OP mentions the court case for his wife's daughter because of the same reason for refusal: not resident for 5 years in the UK under the relevant rules. Clearly not true as the child's decision was overturned.

So, the OP could have been more succinct, but the details are there for those that care to look. I find the harsh criticism to be neither particularly useful nor representative of the general vibe of this sub-forum.

Seems to me he's been messed about by UKBA and many members here love to rub it in because the rules allowed him to take advantage of dual-nationality.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Think the OP just wanted to blow-off some steam, fair enough in my book.

Of course, there could have been an error in the preparation of the application, but even a refusal in this instance would seem harsh, without further contact from UKBA, considering the history.

<flame shield up>

Very well said, as always.

There is always a bit of a negative vibe on here. And the usual snide, snipes about a poster with poor cimmunications skills etc. Certain members love a wee battle on here. Rather than judging the poor guy, walk a mile in his flip flops.

[asiansun]

I think the OP should be cut some slack.

He hasn't tried to game the system, or circumvent the rules. He hasn't tried anything underhand.

UKBA issued his wife a Permit previously so there's clearly no funny busines on the OP's part.

OP mentions the court case for his wife's daughter because of the same reason for refusal: not resident for 5 years in the UK under the relevant rules. Clearly not true as the child's decision was overturned.

So, the OP could have been more succinct, but the details are there for those that care to look. I find the harsh criticism to be neither particularly useful nor representative of the general vibe of this sub-forum.

Seems to me he's been messed about by UKBA and many members here love to rub it in because the rules allowed him to take advantage of dual-nationality.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Think the OP just wanted to blow-off some steam, fair enough in my book.

Of course, there could have been an error in the preparation of the application, but even a refusal in this instance would seem harsh, without further contact from UKBA, considering the history.

<flame shield up>

thankyou, at last someone with a head full of common sense here it is again guys, i know the ukba has got it wrong, why ? because i have proven my right of residence in uk, i proved it when i first got married to my wife and brought her to uk under EEA rules, i proved it in my original application to bring my wifes kid to uk last year because i submitted a telephone book sized folder of evidence of my relationship and my uk residence, but ukba refused the child residence we appealed and brought a case against ukba in court and we won the ruling judge clearly, without a shadow of a doubt ruled that i was resident in uk all my life !! my lawyer knew without a shadow of a doubt even before i went to court that we would win, i proved my right of residence in another telephone sized folder which i submitted to ukba for my wifes PR though once again some nitwit in ukba overlooked this and refused my wife residence even though it was brought to ukba,s attention that a high court ruling 2 months ago allready gave my wifes kid residence in uk so therefore the same nitwit should have known that a judge allready acknowledged my residence status. as my avatar shows i hate being negitive, this is something i am struggling with in my life and i want to stay positive and not start name calling or slandering but some people on here just cant wait to put the feet in , something which i see a lot of in thai visa forum and to be honest i do not see this type of negitivity on other forums of which i am a member of many. i chose to go the EEA route originally because it was said that it was the easiest route and took priority over the spouse uk visa or any other visa ( i dont know why ) it was free and it was easy, eea visa was granted within 2 weeks . but in the long run it wasnt easy, it has been a constant struggle submitted forms, collecting evidence, submitting proof etc etc etc for both applications. i now wish i had of went the uk route but hindsight is indeed a wonderfull thing . in lawyers office on friday morning two days ago i brought in the refusal letter from ukba and all the evidence that i submitted , lawyer looked it over and told me that i had submitted everything and more, so we will wait for our day in court yet again and ukba will be once again be left walking away with their tail between their legs . and yes i am letting off steam and that is one reason why i am posting this topic, the other reason is to warn other guys to make sure to prepare and submit everything, check everything, keep on top of their applications, seek all the proper advice before making any move to bring their wife or kids back to uk. what makes me sick to the pit of my stomach is that some bright spark in ukba ( a mr w**g, dont think he is a uk citizen himself judging by the name , i will call him mr wrong ) seen all my evidence, seen that my wifes kid was stuck and struggling in thailand without mum, kid has constantly been asking about coming to live with us ( heartbreaking ) my wife is ( was ) fully legal here in uk and mr wrong refused her right of residence even though the likes of b*******d terrorist abu hamza can reside in uk and cream of our welfare system , people of other nationalities can come into uk with 6-7 kids and not even married to a uk citizen cream off our welfare system and not even respect our laws , my wife has allways remained respectfull of other people and of our laws , i can go on and on but sure what is the sense in that ? best of luck guys

Edited June 2, 2013 by asiansun

[asiansun]

fatboy and bangkockney we need more like you on thai visa . fair play lads, wish i could buy you a pint sometime. chok dee

[RabC]

And soon hopefully the UK will exit the EU and all will become black and white.

[sustento]

Why should a man called Mister Wong not be a British citizen?

[thaicbr]

Why should a man called Mister Wong not be a British citizen?

Agreed. As far as we have been told the Op isn't a UK citizen in the sense he is NOT using his UK passport (if he has one)so maybe he should just go on back to Ireland with your Thai wife and kids.

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE Q6

[asiansun]

Why should a man called Mister Wong not be a British citizen?

Agreed. As far as we have been told the Op isn't a UK citizen in the sense he is NOT using his UK passport (if he has one)so maybe he should just go on back to Ireland with your Thai wife and kids.

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE Q6

uk and irish passport holder and citizen

[asiansun]

Why should a man called Mister Wong not be a British citizen?

sorry, that was rash of me to have said that, i take it back and apologise.

[7by7]

Asiansun,

As you say that you are unable to say exactly what the refusal notice says, then any accurate comment on it is impossible.

However, I cannot understand why what should be two simple EEA family applications have both been fraught with so much difficulty!

I suspect that there is much you are not telling us.

I also can't understand why, as you say the child's life in Thailand is so difficult and they miss their mum so much, you waited for nearly 5 years before applying to bring him/her to the UK; but that's your affair.

I also cannot understand your racist attitude to other immigrants and British citizens descended from them; an attitude which I see all to often on this forum from certain members.

That the UKBA official has a name which suggests they may be an immigrant or descended from an immigrant means nothing. That person is in the UK legally, and may very well be a British citizen. Otherwise they would not be a case worker for the UKBA!

Your wife is an immigrant to the UK; why do you hate other immigrants so much?

Why would you deny them the rights you demand for your wife?

The overwhelming majority of immigrants are not as you describe; people who come

into uk with 6-7 kids and not even married to a uk citizen cream off our welfare system and not even respect our laws

They, whether they entered via the UK immigration rules or the EEA regulations, are as hard working and law abiding as I hope you and your wife are.

As you used your Irish passport and the EEA rules as a cheap short cut to bring your wife into the UK, it is very hypocritical of you to use the words "not even married to a uk (sic) citizen."

You used the EEA rules; why should others who qualify not do the same?

BTW, Abu Hamza is a criminal and suspected terrorist. He is also a naturalised British citizen, which presumably your wife will be one day. He was deported to the USA last year and whilst the process took a lot longer than many, including myself, would have wished, due legal process did have to be followed.

[Jay Sata]

Can you please explain how the EEA route works 7 by 7?

My understanding is that if you are born in the UK and have dual UK/Eire nationality it is not possible to use the Irish passport in front of the UK one to enter via Europe first.

Is it possible to circumvent the rules and get ILR/citizenship using this method?

If it is possible it makes a lot of sense to go down this road when trying to bring a spouse to the UK.

[asiansun]

Asiansun,

As you say that you are unable to say exactly what the refusal notice says, then any accurate comment on it is impossible.

However, I cannot understand why what should be two simple EEA family applications have both been fraught with so much difficulty!

I suspect that there is much you are not telling us.

I also can't understand why, as you say the child's life in Thailand is so difficult and they miss their mum so much, you waited for nearly 5 years before applying to bring him/her to the UK; but that's your affair.

I also cannot understand your racist attitude to other immigrants and British citizens descended from them; an attitude which I see all to often on this forum from certain members.

That the UKBA official has a name which suggests they may be an immigrant or descended from an immigrant means nothing. That person is in the UK legally, and may very well be a British citizen. Otherwise they would not be a case worker for the UKBA!

Your wife is an immigrant to the UK; why do you hate other immigrants so much?

Why would you deny them the rights you demand for your wife?

The overwhelming majority of immigrants are not as you describe; people who come

into uk with 6-7 kids and not even married to a uk citizen cream off our welfare system and not even respect our laws

They, whether they entered via the UK immigration rules or the EEA regulations, are as hard working and law abiding as I hope you and your wife are.

As you used your Irish passport and the EEA rules as a cheap short cut to bring your wife into the UK, it is very hypocritical of you to use the words "not even married to a uk (sic) citizen."

You used the EEA rules; why should others who qualify not do the same?

BTW, Abu Hamza is a criminal and suspected terrorist. He is also a naturalised British citizen, which presumably your wife will be one day. He was deported to the USA last year and whilst the process took a lot longer than many, including myself, would have wished, due legal process did have to be followed.

well it is possible that mr wrong is a uk citizen, it is also possible that he is not and is working in ukba on a work permit . so that does not mean i am a racist which i certainly am not !! you jump straight onto the negitive band wagon 7x7 and call me a racist tut tut you also use the word hate ? when did i ever use the word hate ? i said it sickens me to see other immigrants of a certain race and religion come into our country and destroy our country and cream off our country when british troops are dying for our country and british troops are coming back to our country with no legs or arms and are left homeless or on the bloody dole , now do not start me on this !!! we waited 5 years because we were planning to go back and live in thailand and other family members who were taking care of the child died suddenly 2 years ago and the original visa application took months to prepared and was lodged and waited in the ukba 5 months before we got a decision !!! also other reason which are none of your business. you say i do not tell you exactly what the refusal letter says OMG ok, just for you i will spell it out, please read carefully - apparently, i failed to prove that i was a uk resident. ive told you this allready please read post 39. you seem to be lurking in the back ground ready to pounce at the first opportunity . if you do not have the advice i asked for at start of the post then im afraid you do not have it now. i have allready sought professional advice so thankyou for your input. have a nice day

[7by7]

Jay Sata,

It's really a subject for another thread, but I'll try to be brief.

Various treaties and the EU directive which follows mean that all EEA citizens have the right of free movement throughout the EEA.

Not only for tourism purposes, but also to live in another EEA state provided they are:
◾a worker, employed or self employed,
◾a jobseeker,
◾living on independent means, e.g. a pensioner or
◾a student.

The same regulations mean that their qualifying non EEA national family members, and a spouse and step children are such, may live with them.

The only real condition to this is that they must be able to support and accommodate themselves without becoming an unreasonable burden on the state.

These regulations do not apply if the EEA national wants their non EEA national family to live in the state of which they are a citizen; unless they have been working in another EEA state, their non EEA family have been living there with them and they are now returning to the EEA national's home country. This is known as a Surinder Singh application following the court ruling which made it possible.

So, for example, a British citizen cannot use the EEA regulations to bring their Thai wife to live in the UK with him, except via the Surinder Singh route.

But, until recently, if someone was a national of two or more EEA states then they could use nationality A to bring their non EEA family into country B.

The OP has dual Irish/British nationality, so, if I understand him correctly, he used his Irish nationality to bring his wife to the UK via the EEA regulations.

This is no longer possible as the regulations have been changed. To do this now, the OP would have to show that he had lived at some time in the RoI.

Having entered the UK using the EEA route it is not possible to then 'switch' to the UK immigration rules.

Therefore they cannot apply for ILR, but instead, if they wish, need to apply for PR (Permanent residence) under the EEA rules.

Neither will it be possible to apply for British citizenship as quickly as the spouse of a British citizen can. They would need to have held PR for at least 1 year; making a minimum of 6 years living in the UK.

Hope this helps your understanding.

[theoldgit]

Can we reign in some of remarks please, and restrict the answers to the OP.

[Jay Sata]

I guess a lot hangs on your proposed case then Asiansun.

From what I've read on Surinder Singh rules there is a right of residence after five years?

If you win such a legal action then it will no doubt have a future bearing on UK immigration law.

However looking at the UK Border Agency website you may face problems.

3.12 Switching from being an EEA family member to a category under the

Immigration Rules.

Applications are frequently received from persons admitted on an EEA Family

permit to be treated under United Kingdom domestic law (the Immigration Rules)

rather than EC law, as this provides a quicker route to settlement (i.e. after two

years as opposed to five).

However, persons entering the United Kingdom under EC law (i.e. under an EEA

residence card) are admitted without leave and are therefore unable to qualify for

leave to remain/ILR under either paragraph 284 or 287 of HC 395. In the cases of

SAHOTA and ZEGHRABA, it was held that the systems of EC and national law in

relation to immigration control were distinct and therefore, it is not possible to

‘pick and mix’ between the rules and EC law in order to obtain the maximum

benefits of each

Source http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/policyandlaw/ecis/chapter9?view=Binary

7 by 7 can you explain if Asiansun's spouse can be deported at this stage given the warning by UKBA to make arrangements to leave the UK

following the expiry of her permit? Or can she appeal and await the outcome?

Presumably if she was forced to return to Thailand to start the visa process again it would void the child's right to enter the UK?

The other question is that of legal aid to fund such a case. Am I correct she will have to appeal not Asiansun so therefore does she have a right to access a lawyer at state expense.

Edited June 2, 2013 by Jay Sata

[7by7]

it is possible that mr wrong is a uk citizen, it is also possible that he is not and is working in ukba on a work permit

Someone doing work such as that done by a UKBA employee would not be eligible for a work permit.

So your case worker is definitely not in the UK with a work permit.

Edited June 2, 2013 by 7by7

[7by7]

Jay Sata,

The OP's wife did not, I think, enter under the Surinder Singh ruling.

All those who enter the UK via the EEA route, whether they be an EEA national or the non EEA family of same, can apply for PR after 5 years living in the UK.

As I understand it, the OP's wife will be allowed to remain in the UK until her appeal is heard.

You are correct that it is her who appeals, not the OP. Not sure about legal aid; I'll check.

Edit, yes; appellants can receive legal aid; provided they meet the usual income requirements.

Edited June 2, 2013 by 7by7

[Jay Sata]

Jay Sata,

The OP's wife did not, I think, enter under the Surinder Singh ruling.

All those who enter the UK via the EEA route, whether they be an EEA national or the non EEA family of same, can apply for PR after 5 years living in the UK.

As I understand it, the OP's wife will be allowed to remain in the UK until her appeal is heard.

You are correct that it is her who appeals, not the OP. Not sure about legal aid; I'll check.

So she should be applying for permanent residence then?

Given the high costs and hassle involved in getting a spouse visa I think if I was doing it these days I'd move to somewhere in Europe and work there/live there claiming self employment and use the EEA permit route.

[7by7]

It's difficult, due to his posting style, to say exactly what she applied for, but it does seem it was PR.

If you do follow the Surinder Singh route, it may seem attractive but there's a lot to consider. Two main factors being:

• You need to have been working, employed or self employed, in the other EEA country. Jobseeking etc. don't count. You can't just claim to have been working or self employed; you have to prove it.
• The cost of moving to another EEA state and setting up home there; followed by the cost of packing everything up and moving to the UK. Even with today's exorbitant visa and leave to remain fees, the extra move from Europe to the UK will almost certainly be more expensive.

It may appeal to some, but I reckon it's not suitable for most. Others will doubtless disagree.