Thailand To Buy Second Hand Military Equipment From Usa

[Jai Dee]

Cabinet approved more than 2 billion baht for purchase of used helicopters and artilleries from the US

The Cabinet has approved more than 2 billion baht budget for the Army to purchase second-hand artilleries and helicopters from the United States.

Prime Minister's Office Deputy Spokersperson Danuphorn Punnakant (ดนุพร ปุณณกันต์) revealed that the Cabinet today approved 1.305 billion baht for the Ministry of Defense's proposed purchase of 6 artilleries as well as maintenance parts.

It also approved the contract for the purchase of 6 attack helicopters that still have a 15-year service lifespan, between the governments of Thailand and the United States. This deal would be exempt from barter trading as a special case due to its non-profit military assistance nature.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 30 March 2006

[PREM-R]

Alpha Jets from the Germans, Chinese Tanks from the Swiss and now Cannons and Helicopters from the Septics. Would you like your 'tea money' in dollars or baht?

[stumonster]

1.305 billion baht for the Ministry of Defense's proposed purchase of 6 artilleries as well as maintenance parts.

approx 6 million USD per piece - cheap at half the kickback

[Thaising]

Could afford the hardware but can't afford the software, come another scrapped metal dubious contract.

[johna]

Last year a retired Brit army officer in a letter to the Nation poured scorn on the Thai army’s purchasing of military equipment from so many countries, and pointed the high cost and logistical nightmare of keeping such a large stock of spare parts for this equipment.

[Cpt_M0ney_Sh0t]

Alpha Jets from the Germans, Chinese Tanks from the Swiss and now Cannons and Helicopters from the Septics. Would you like your 'tea money' in dollars or baht?

Septics? What a petty, envious little bigot you are.

[PREM-R]

Alpha Jets from the Germans, Chinese Tanks from the Swiss and now Cannons and Helicopters from the Septics. Would you like your 'tea money' in dollars or baht?

Septics? What a petty, envious little bigot you are.

No offence (offense?) Guv'nor just a term of endearment for the residents of the former western colonies, if you are Scottish you are a 'Sweaty" (Sweaty Sock - Jock) if you are Welsh you are "Taffy" if you are American you are "Septic" ( Septic Tank - Yank)

Hope you understand.

[sunreader]

"HUMAN RIGHTS

Washington slams Thai record

Extrajudicial killings, corruption and media intimidation mar Kingdom's image

Thailand's human-rights record has "significant problems" due to extrajudicial killings and restrictions on freedom of expression, says the US government.

In the annual human-rights report by the US State Department, which will be released today, Washington took the Thai government to task for violations, especially in the Malay-speaking South."

Oh and by the way here are some cheap weapons.

Nice.

[PREM-R]

(sunreader Posted Today, 2006-03-30 12:01:49 )

HUMAN RIGHTS

Washington slams Thai record

Errr!!! Guantanamo Bay Errr!!! Abugrabe Prison Baghdad

But then I'm just a petty, envious little biggot

[Kerryd]

1.305 billion baht for the Ministry of Defense's proposed purchase of 6 artilleries as well as maintenance parts.

approx 6 million USD per piece - cheap at half the kickback

I think the article was written by someone who doesn't understand the military, or English very well.

6 "artilleries" ? What the hel_l are "artilleries" ? Did they mean 6 batteries of artillery ? Or individual artillery pieces ? Or self-propelled rocket launchers like "The Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS)" ? All are considered "artillery".

Big difference between 105mm howitzers. M155 self-propelled howitzers (which look like a big tank, with a 155mm cannon) and MLRS systems.

The story says the budget was 2 billion baht, and 1.305 billion of that was for the artillery (pieces, batteries, what ever) ?

That leaves only 695 million baht for the 6 attack helicopters ?

33+ million US for 6 artillery somethings and

17+ million US for 6 attack helicopters.

Maybe they have their figures backwards ?

Alpha Jets from the Germans, Chinese Tanks from the Swiss (?) Artillery and Helicopters from the US and don't forget the Chickens for Fighter Jets deal they are trying to work out with the Russians !

While it would be nice to get all your goodies from one place, what happens if your relationship with your supplier goes sour ? Suddenly your source of spare parts is gone and your equipment will quickly become useless.

Prime example is Iran. Used to be supplied almost exclusively by the US. When the revolutionaries took over and the US imposed sanctions, suddenly there were no more spares to keep all their F-15's flying (which would have helped them in the Iran-Iraq war in the 80's).

Having a domestic arms program is extremely expensive as well. Even India buys most of it's armaments from foreign suppliers. They tried to develop a tank domestically, and that turned into a hugely expensive flop. Some of their services are still using weapons that were manufactured during WWII !

I don't know if Thailand could support (afford) a domestic weapons program that could supply all, or most, of it's requirements. And that's not taking into consideration the massive corruption that could (would) take place if they did try to do everything "in house"

Edited March 30, 2006 by Kerryd

[PREM-R]

Prime example is Iran. Used to be supplied almost exclusively by the US. When the revolutionaries took over and the US imposed sanctions, suddenly there were no more spares to keep all their F-15's flying (which would have helped them in the Iran-Iraq war in the 80's).

Think Iran purchased F 14 "Tomcat" fighters rather than F15 "Eagles"

(By Babak Peyvandi

December 25, 2001

The Iranian )

The Shah of Iran, wanting to build the best air force in the Middle East asked to obtain the best fighter jet of that era. He was given a choice, the F-14 Tomcat or the F-15 Eagle. He chose the F-14.

[markuk]

Cabinet approved more than 2 billion baht for purchase of used helicopters and artilleries from the US

The Cabinet has approved more than 2 billion baht budget for the Army to purchase second-hand artilleries and helicopters from the United States.

Prime Minister's Office Deputy Spokersperson Danuphorn Punnakant (ดนุพร ปุณณกันต์) revealed that the Cabinet today approved 1.305 billion baht for the Ministry of Defense's proposed purchase of 6 artilleries as well as maintenance parts.

It also approved the contract for the purchase of 6 attack helicopters that still have a 15-year service lifespan, between the governments of Thailand and the United States. This deal would be exempt from barter trading as a special case due to its non-profit military assistance nature.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 30 March 2006

I hope that the Thai government requests the "friendly fire" feature to be turned off.....

[stoneman]

The way I read this is that the inference is that they were bought from the US Government, but I would rather believe that they were bought from some private arms dealer that bought them as salvage from the US Defense Dept...Also more room for bribes, graft and corruption

[jdinasia]

Alpha Jets from the Germans, Chinese Tanks from the Swiss and now Cannons and Helicopters from the Septics. Would you like your 'tea money' in dollars or baht?

Septics? What a petty, envious little bigot you are.

No offence (offense?) Guv'nor just a term of endearment for the residents of the former western colonies, if you are Scottish you are a 'Sweaty" (Sweaty Sock - Jock) if you are Welsh you are "Taffy" if you are American you are "Septic" ( Septic Tank - Yank)

Hope you understand.

Prem ... are you from Brixton?

[PREM-R]

Prem ... are you from Brixton?

No Man

[jdinasia]

oh .. i got 3.3 billion baht out of it .... !

and even at 6 million a helicopter with a 15 year service contract?

.... a great deal!!!

Thailand doesn't need tremendously advanced weapon systems ... but what do you want to bet that the price they are getting stuff for only really covers "maintenance" including US staff costs?

[ratcatcher]

oh .. i got 3.3 billion baht out of it .... !

and even at 6 million a helicopter with a 15 year service contract?

.... a great deal!!!

Thailand doesn't need tremendously advanced weapon systems ... but what do you want to bet that the price they are getting stuff for only really covers "maintenance" including US staff costs?

Quite true. The boys in uniform need some toys, so why not pack the Airforce big boys over to the finest used aircraft supermarket in the world, Davis Monthan Base in Tucson Arizona.

There they could wander round for days looking at everything from ageing B52's to more recent fighters. They could even pick up a few old VTOL Harriers and stick them on the Chakri Narubet, that floating airfield tied up somewhere near Satahip.

They could pick up as much used weaponry as they wanted at a fraction of the cost of new aircraft. Meanwhile any potential threat from the Goons in Burma would be immediately countered by the United States Navy. The U.S. is itching for an excuse to have a go at the Burmese military.

[jdinasia]

huh? why would the US wany to screw with Myanmar? one of the world's poorest countries! Any real oilfields there?

That's just silly!

[usatrader]

The U.S. is itching for an excuse to have a go at the Burmese military

Beyond the hyperbole, conjecture and irrational in your supposition, care to provide some evidence of facts supporting your theory implied in this vituperation of ideologue assumptions that America wants to attack everybody and is responsible for ever ill known to man.

The only thing the US is itching to do is to get these mouthy do nothings off their cynical never self reflecting <deleted> and do something about the world problems. Instead of sitting on the sidelines in safety and self interest, in likeness of an ostrich posturing with its head in the sand presuming security, mouthing about how bad things are but doing nearly absolutely nothing in auguring with some unity in workable solutions for all they find wrong in the world.

Those bred in cynicism and presumption are similar in their assumptions that a fact laid before them by an opponent cannot be both honest, intelligent and of good intent and purpose as their aspects of similar likeness are self assumed unquestionably disreputable.-trader

[jdinasia]

io! ... usatrader ... that's just sad

[Johpa]

33+ million US for 6 artillery somethings and

17+ million US for 6 attack helicopters.

Maybe they have their figures backwards ?

Apache helicopters go for about $15mil new and maybe about $8-10mil used. Not a paticularly good choice for tropical forest canopies, a bit complicated for the Thai mind, and proven very vulnerable in urban settings. Maybe some Super Cobras that go new for about $10mil. Used ones could allow for the expected 20% kickback tea money. More likely some aging but reconditioned AH-1 Cobras. Now those can be had for a song and allow for lots of tea money.

[usatrader]

io! ... usatrader ... that's just sad

Indeed, it is poignant, this idée fixe propensity of raving fashionable trepidations.

We live in an age of reproach, mistrust, conspiracy, and cynicism where good and bad are indistinguishable. Whereas, disagreeing coheres attack, condemnation and aggrandized mockery, in a social pathetic paradigm “Where everybody’s right and nobody’s wrong”. -trader

My two bhat as to the helo debate, being ancient era hack, I surmise the debate is which is better the Apache vs. Havoc vs. Hokum vs. Tiger. Most experts agree strictly judging on paper and thusly by performance specifications, the Russian Ka-50 is the best – barely edging out the European Tiger.

Yet, Military experts agree the Apache is unquestionably the most proven design of these and has the fewest question marks regarding its combat performance in varying terrains. It has more adaptable weapon’s platforms and superior flight and weapons electronics. Unlike the others, who spec better in some ways, the Apache has a proven Combat record in four very diverse war environments against often the best anti-aircraft weaponry of both Europe and Russia. The H-64 Apache has proven its metal as having more devastating and diverse options for firepower and twice the range of both the others.

Being a old nam jock, I can tell you that the desert environments are the worst of all environments to operated complex electronics and helos, particularly as to electronics, weapons, blades and engines. Furthermore, nap of the earth flying over tropical canopies adds sound and visual stealth to the Apache and is further advantaged by its better nap of the earth flight agility than the others.

I would note one other comment someone made out of ignorance. I knew many Thai Pilots in those ancient times. They were well skilled, intrepid and unrelenting pilots as capable in equality as any Euro and American pilots I saw in the day. I suspect and have heard through the grapevine, todays Thai Pilots would be even better than those of that ancient era.

[Johpa]

I would note one other comment someone made out of ignorance. I knew many Thai Pilots in those ancient times. They were well skilled, intrepid and unrelenting pilots as capable in equality as any Euro and American pilots I saw in the day. I suspect and have heard through the grapevine, todays Thai Pilots would be even better than those of that ancient era.

But we are talking about the Thai military establishment here. The quality of the personnel is not a consideration. The quality, or even the appropriateness of the platform, is not a consideration. The only consideration is how profitable to the individuals the deal will be to the group of generals who are trying to make the deal happen.

[usatrader]

But we are talking about the Thai military establishment here. The quality of the personnel is not a consideration. The quality, or even the appropriateness of the platform, is not a consideration. The only consideration is how profitable to the individuals the deal will be to the group of generals who are trying to make the deal happen.

I Thank you for the comment. Indeed, we were speaking of the Thai Military Establishment and my analysis of some of the equipment they procured or were procuring was exactly on that topic.

I further added, in realization that your cynicism and conjecture may or may not be true and factual in part and or in whole. I did that, knowing full well, you were not even remotely privy to the process in any way and could not know this factually.

Furthermore I deduced if your were privy to the details of this procurement as being solely based on what was “profitable to the individuals”, then, you are as corrupt as those you would criticize as being corrupt and are thusly a hypocrite.

I also noted in your discussing the “Thai Military Establishment here” we got from you an implicit clear xenophobic perspective of the Thai Military’s human component.

a bit complicated for the Thai mind,

To which, in equality, fairness and free speech, having some direct experience with that Military establishments human component, doubting predicatively you have, felt a need to adamantly rebuke your fallacious xenophobic conclusion and its implications.

Likewise, not knowing nor caring where you may be originally from but assuming you are not remotely Thai, I am confident in predicting no nation is immune from government procurement and spending corruption.

Thereby, if this anti-corruption cynicism is indeed your passion, then maybe you should focus your scornful objections on corruption in your society as opposed to its existences in the vast majority of others.

Then again, you could be totally right about this procurement and or are from “that one ideal perfect society most hope exist out there”.

If so, please show us the unquestionable proof that supports this corruption and if not, maybe tell us which perfect uncorrupted society your hail from and I shall immediately, if it is true on either account, apologize profusely.

We live in an age of reproach, mistrust, conspiracy, and cynicism where good and bad are indistinguishable. Whereas, disagreeing coheres attack, condemnation and aggrandized mockery, in a social pathetic paradigm “Where everybody’s right and nobody’s wrong”-trader.

Plutarch

To find a fault is easy; to do better may be difficult.

Wayne Dyer

All blame is a waste of time. No matter how much fault you find with another, and regardless of how much you blame him, it will not change you.

[stumonster]

Furthermore I deduced if your were privy to the details of this procurement as being solely based on what was “profitable to the individuals”, then, you are as corrupt as those you would criticize as being corrupt and are thusly a hypocrite.

eh?

I base my cynicism on my perception of the reality.

The Thailand I perceive , is riddled with kickbacks , nepotism and conflicts of interest , from the local security guard up to the office of prime minister , which indicates on the balance of probability that this transaction involves corruption.

Do you honestly believe this transaction does not involve any corruption?

[usatrader]

eh?

I base my cynicism on my perception of the reality.

The Thailand I perceive , is riddled with kickbacks , nepotism and conflicts of interest , from the local security guard up to the office of prime minister , which indicates on the balance of probability that this transaction involves corruption.

Do you honestly believe this transaction does not involve any corruption?

Indeed, I do not say it does or does not involve corruption, for like you and the previous poster, I have no idea and I, like you, have no dog in this fight. Therefore, it is none of my business and I said so implicitly.

If I may interject a few retorts that are inflections of the broad stroked narrowness of your query as was implicit in the demeaning posts of the poster I responded to when he said,

a bit complicated for the Thai mind,

I notice both of you commonly appear to prefer to clump ALL people and ALL things into nice neatly convenient packages derived in self created cynicism.

I do realize these days that is fashionable and trendy to ridicule and find fault in others excepting oneself of course. However being trendy or cynical and or selectively defacing of others and what they do does not make it absolute and or factual in the all encompassing way you both neatly package it.

I did note that you both imply from your outsider’s narrow perception an assumption that ALL Thais and their dealings ,both internally and externally, are endowed in some manner with kickbacks, nepotism, conflicts of interest and corruption.

I merely point out that it is fallacious and untrue as it is a broad stroke derive of Personal observations that may be as much created by a lack of factual knowledge, assumed conjecture and or prejudicial broad strokes as much a factual reality.

Yet, as I said, your comments may have some merit as to SOME Thais and as to SOME of their dealings. Yet they are unquestionably not definitely inclusive as to this topic and or as to ALL Thais and their dealings as both of you so neatly package them.[/b

I mentioned earlier that corruption, in varying ways, is universal in most societies and is likely as great in some variant and or form in your native country as it is in Thailand. I further added in my post that neither the original poster and now, nor you, can say definitively what you are saying is a fact or that in fact Thais, for the most part, behave as you both assume in self perceptive broad stoked observations of their behaviors.

I do not argue if your wrong and or right on this particular issue, as I, like you, have no basis in factual reality as being able to fairly judge that. I merely argue, as it is popular and fashionable these day to assume a paradigm of “if everybody is right then nobodies wrong.”

Whereby, we more and more are presuming self omnipotence that is becoming so cluttered in the noise of these self manifestos of supreme opine that one can not distinguish the right from the wrong. Where over opinioned cynical interlopers inject observations and opines that are indistinguishable in that they sometimes contain fact and sometimes contain fiction.

Likewise, I am confident I specifically addressed the core of your question in my post in a part you apparently overlooked.

Likewise, not knowing nor caring where you may be originally from but assuming you are not remotely Thai, I am confident in predicting no nation is immune from government procurement and spending corruption.

Thereby, if this anti-corruption cynicism is indeed your passion, then maybe you should focus your scornful objections on corruption in your society as opposed to its existences in the vast majority of others.

Then again, you could be totally right about this procurement and or are from “that one ideal perfect society most hope exist out there”.

P.S

Respectfully, If I was that cynical about the people and the country that I choice to live in, I would leave. Then again, if I was that Cynical, no matter where I would go, I suspect, I would look for blame or fault in others in the same equality wouldn’t I?

[dog412]

wow, blame the americans for everything, we exist, get used to it. and i'm sure, one day you'll be glad it was there, just ask your relative that works and lives there.

[stumonster]

is riddled with kickbacks ,

I did note that you both imply from your outsider’s narrow perception an assumption that ALL Thais and their dealings ,both internally and externally, are endowed in some manner with kickbacks, nepotism, conflicts of interest and corruption.

my statement does not imply all , but it does imply majority.

clump ALL people and ALL things into nice neatly convenient packages derived in self created cynicism.

I do realize these days that is fashionable and trendy to ridicule and find fault in others excepting oneself of course. However being trendy or cynical and or selectively defacing of others and what they do does not make it absolute and or factual in the all encompassing way you both neatly package it.

my cynicism has nothing to do with being fashionable and trendy and I presume you mean that as a veiled insult. And nowhere have I claimed or implied that I am beyond reproach , part of the basis for my cynical outlook of human nature derives from my anaysis of my motives verses the outward facade I maintain. I doubt I am unique.

I mentioned earlier that corruption, in varying ways, is universal in most societies and is likely as great in some variant and or form in your native country as it is in Thailand. I further added in my post that neither the original poster and now, nor you, can say definitively what you are saying is a fact or that in fact Thais, for the most part, behave as you both assume in self perceptive broad stoked observations of their behaviors.

I do not argue if your wrong and or right on this particular issue, as I, like you, have no basis in factual reality as being able to fairly judge that. I merely argue, as it is popular and fashionable these day to assume a paradigm of “if everybody is right then nobodies wrong.”

Likewise, I am confident I specifically addressed the core of your question in my post in a part you apparently overlooked.

Likewise, not knowing nor caring where you may be originally from but assuming you are not remotely Thai, I am confident in predicting no nation is immune from government procurement and spending corruption.

Thereby, if this anti-corruption cynicism is indeed your passion, then maybe you should focus your scornful objections on corruption in your society as opposed to its existences in the vast majority of others.

Then again, you could be totally right about this procurement and or are from “that one ideal perfect society most hope exist out there”.

P.S

Respectfully, If I was that cynical about the people and the country that I choose to live in, I would leave. Then again, if I was that Cynical, no matter where I would go, I suspect, I would look for blame or fault in others in the same equality wouldn’t I?

as this is a Thai Board my comments are expected to be Thai related .I would be flamed if I started to mention the corruption inherent in the governements of other countries.

Whereby, we more and more are presuming self omnipotence that is becoming so cluttered in the noise of these self manifestos of supreme opine that one can not distinguish the right from the wrong. Where over opinioned cynical interlopers inject observations and opines that are indistinguishable in that they sometimes contain fact and sometimes contain fiction.

your tone throughout your post comes across as pompous , and does not encourage people to take the time to reply to you.

[jdinasia]

hmmm to say most business dealings with thais are less than on the up and up just <snip> ...but hey .... i guess they could probably care less what you think ... so why should i?

[richard10365]

Jesus H Christ......I need to go back to school so I can understand what the heck some of you are talking about.

Try leaving out the big words and just call the other guy a liar or an ars_hole. I get bored trying to read through the long stretched out comments.

Edited April 3, 2006 by richard10365