The Farang Cultural Divide

[Radar501]

Born and raised in Australia, my brain has been programmed to Western values and cultures. Spitting on the street is one habit which the average Aussie considers disgusting. But I know that in some countries, a person who clears his throat, and hurls a big thick wad of snot on the pavement is not considered as such a social leper.

The reverse also applies. Some very conservative cultures would consider very offensive what some of us consider perfectly acceptable behaviour, even when we are visiting those conservative countries. Think hugging and snogging in public, or showing far too much skin at the beach.

There are many other examples of where variations across the cultural divide don't mean that one side is right and the other wrong, depending on one's frame of reference. They are just different.

Here's another example.

A condition of entry signposted at some Christian cathedrals in England and France is that appropriate footwear must be worn. To enter barefoot would be considered rude.

A condition of entry signposted at some Buddhist temples in Thailand is that footwear must NOT be worn. To enter with footwear would be considered rude.

I read so many posts on TV where the habits of Thais, Russians, Indians and Chinese are constantly ridiculed and criticised. I do suspect that part of the reason for this is, as Farangs, our buying power and dominant position as tourists/ex-pats in LOS is waning in favour of these other ethnic groups. We find comfort in slandering them to make ourselves feel better.

Let the flaming begin.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

In my country it is rude to refer to white foreigners as farangs.

Actually it is considered rude to use a person's skin color to describe them, is that not the case in Australia?

[David48]

.

I can easily understand your statements ... but not understand the question within the OP.

Maybe I'm just thick ...

.

[jvs]

I can think of some habits that are very easily noticed,table manners are a prime example.

I was raised to not speak with your mouth full of food and not make any strange noises while eating,slurping and chewing with open mouth is not frowned upon over here i notice.

[partington]

I don't really agree that cultural differences are just 'different' and have to be accepted with no value judgements attached, by definition.

Some differences are of course harmless and part of the richly diverse pattern of human behaviour, but others are not, and I think it's perfectly OK to comment on, and try to change them.

For example, the hawking up and spitting you mention is not neutral, as many pathogens can be, and are, spread this way: respiratory diseases like SARS, flu, and in the third world especially, tuberculosis, including antibiotic resistant kinds.

I would also say that the Asian habit of removing shoes before entering a place where people live is hugely superior to the Western habit of leaving them on. Think of all the dog, rat and cat poo and TB-infested spittle that you avoid tracking into your house if you just take your shoes off!

Edited June 15, 2013 by partington

[boosta]

When I lived in Australia, spitting in the street, or even on the floor of the pub was very common - not in the ladies' lounge of course.

So was direct aggressive confrontation in public, even when meeting a stranger for the first time when nothing negative had occurred, all in a spirit of "joshing around" - particularly so when the stranger is a foreigner. If that led to the newcomer showing any weakness, god forbid tears then descending on him like hens pecking for blood was considered a normal part of an evening's entertainment.

As were regular fistfights, considered proper to take it outside but many had to be helped along by the pub's bouncer.

Everyone swore a blue streak, even women, as part of their normal friendly conversation out in public, including when shopping or in the work place.

If you were invited over for a meal, they thought you were rude if you didn't show up with a bottle - or even better a few casks and/or slabs of VB.

People didn't think it rude to monopolize 99% of two hours' conversation talking about the footy even though there were people present who couldn't give a stuff.

And so on.

As you live in a new place, you get used to the local ways and adapt yourself.

Or if there are enough of "youse furriners" in a given place you stick together and B&M about the stupid locals.

Personally I like to think that there are some basic rules of ethics that transcend these cultural differences, but such customs in and of themselves often end up seeming bizarre to everyone no matter what their culture.

This is why I love living apart from where I grew up, life is always interesting, you have to stay on your toes.

[canuckamuck]

Most culture is over rated and a barrier to genuine human interaction.

[manarak]

In my country it is rude to refer to white foreigners as farangs.

Actually it is considered rude to use a person's skin color to describe them, is that not the case in Australia?

So what would be a proper reaction by the white foreigner?

[Kitsune]

In my country it is rude to refer to white foreigners as farangs.

Actually it is considered rude to use a person's skin color to describe them, is that not the case in Australia?

Sorry which country is this ?

[boosta]

Most culture is over rated and a barrier to genuine human interaction.

Without culture most of that "genuine" interaction is likely to be the law of the jungle.

It is how we learn to be human as we grow up, much more important than politics and laws.

As the different cultures around the world interact and merge into one, we can only hope the best from an objective ethical point of view are will emerge.

The prognosis doesn't look good to me, as the capitalism at the root of our dominant culture doesn't have a lot of true ethics other than the religious aspects which most consider obsolete, we rely on laws for our ethics rather than culture.

[boosta]

Here we go again

In my country it is rude to refer to white foreigners as farangs.
Actually it is considered rude to use a person's skin color to describe them, is that not the case in Australia?

-
Which one is Kim?

She's the black girl talking to that big guy over there.

He's the Asian at the punch bowl.

He's the white guy with the jacket and tie.

None of these are rude in any culture I've lived in.

Hypersensitive politically correct people might be trying to make it so, but IMO they're idiots, such terms - as with farang - are only derogatory if that's the intention of the speaker, easily identified by the context and tone of voice.

[krisb]

When I lived in Australia, spitting in the street, or even on the floor of the pub was very common - not in the ladies' lounge of course.

 

So was direct aggressive confrontation in public, even when meeting a stranger for the first time when nothing negative had occurred, all in a spirit of "joshing around" - particularly so when the stranger is a foreigner. If that led to the newcomer showing any weakness, god forbid tears then descending on him like hens pecking for blood was considered a normal part of an evening's entertainment.

 

As were regular fistfights, considered proper to take it outside but many had to be helped along by the pub's bouncer.

 

Everyone swore a blue streak, even women, as part of their normal friendly conversation out in public, including when shopping or in the work place.

 

If you were invited over for a meal, they thought you were rude if you didn't show up with a bottle - or even better a few casks and/or slabs of VB.

 

People didn't think it rude to monopolize 99% of two hours' conversation talking about the footy even though there were people present who couldn't give a stuff.

 

And so on.

 

As you live in a new place, you get used to the local ways and adapt yourself.

 

Or if there are enough of "youse furriners" in a given place you stick together and B&M about the stupid locals.

 

Personally I like to think that there are some basic rules of ethics that transcend these cultural differences, but such customs in and of themselves often end up seeming bizarre to everyone no matter what their culture.

 

This is why I love living apart from where I grew up, life is always interesting, you have to stay on your toes.

Going by your first sentence, you must have been born in 1860?..

Back then, and apparently still a law today in Australia , a publican has to feed and water your horse tied up out the front. So I've heard.

[Kitsune]

Here we go again

In my country it is rude to refer to white foreigners as farangs.

Actually it is considered rude to use a person's skin color to describe them, is that not the case in Australia?

-

Which one is Kim?

She's the black girl talking to that big guy over there.

He's the Asian at the punch bowl.

He's the white guy with the jacket and tie.

None of these are rude in any culture I've lived in.

Hypersensitive politically correct people might be trying to make it so, but IMO they're idiots, such terms - as with farang - are only derogatory if that's the intention of the speaker, easily identified by the context and tone of voice.

News flash : Farang is not just used to make sure they got the right person, it is a replacement for the words person/lady/gentleman/man/etc

Edited June 15, 2013 by Kitsune

[uptheos]

Here we go again

In my country it is rude to refer to white foreigners as farangs.

Actually it is considered rude to use a person's skin color to describe them, is that not the case in Australia?

-

Which one is Kim?

She's the black girl talking to that big guy over there.

He's the Asian at the punch bowl.

He's the white guy with the jacket and tie.

None of these are rude in any culture I've lived in.

Hypersensitive politically correct people might be trying to make it so, but IMO they're idiots, such terms - as with farang - are only derogatory if that's the intention of the speaker, easily identified by the context and tone of voice.

Had to be the white guy with the jacket and tie.

[boosta]

News flash : Farang is not just used to make sure they got the right person, it is a replacement for the words person/lady/gentleman/man/etc

-

News flash - this is a common and no-disrespect-intended linguistic feature of the Thai language, they often use these "objectifying" words rather than each others' names, especially in relaxed informal contexts, you're just being overly sensitive.

Now it's quite possible the Thais around you have no respect for you, can't argue about that, but that doesn't make the term itself derogatory from a linguistic POV.

"Pee" - someone older, "Nong" someone younger

"Ouan" - the fat guy, "Geh" - the old guy (nothing disrespectful about either, except to overly sensitive farang)

"dTua lek" and "Noo" - the little one

Also relationship words - we do the same as Thais with "Granny" "Uncle" etc.

It's only disrespect if you tell them you don't like it and they continue to do so to your face, but even then more likely they just forget, old habits are hard to break.

[boosta]

Had to be the white guy with the jacket and tie.

"Teacher teacher!"

Disrespectful rather than "Mr. Boosta"??

[Kitsune]

News flash : Farang is not just used to make sure they got the right person, it is a replacement for the words person/lady/gentleman/man/etc

-

News flash - this is a common and no-disrespect-intended linguistic feature of the Thai language, they often use these "objectifying" words rather than each others' names, especially in relaxed informal contexts, you're just being overly sensitive.

Now it's quite possible the Thais around you have no respect for you, can't argue about that, but that doesn't make the term itself derogatory from a linguistic POV.

"Pee" - someone older, "Nong" someone younger

"Ouan" - the fat guy, "Geh" - the old guy (nothing disrespectful about either, except to overly sensitive farang)

"dTua lek" and "Noo" - the little one

Also relationship words - we do the same as Thais with "Granny" "Uncle" etc.

It's only disrespect if you tell them you don't like it and they continue to do so to your face, but even then more likely they just forget, old habits are hard to break.

News flash : Our very own Thai contributor AnotherOneAmerican who is I repeat THAI says that (and I quote) :

In my country it is rude to refer to white foreigners as farangs.

Got to like this guy !

Edited June 15, 2013 by Kitsune

[boosta]

Going by your first sentence, you must have been born in 1860?..

Back then, and apparently still a law today in Australia , a publican has to feed and water your horse tied up out the front. So I've heard.

-

Getting on thirty years ago now, more prevalent in the countryside and among the less educated. From what I've encountered of ockers travelling abroad much still applies today.

Just some illustrations of "culture shock" common to anyone moving to a new country, no moralistic judgments here. . .

[boosta]

Got to like this guy!

-

Either not actually Thai (on the Internet no knows you're a dog)

or taking the piss

or raised overseas and doesn't understand his own culture

or mentally disturbed

or something.

But what he says on this matter is pure <deleted>.

[kikoman]

In my country it is rude to refer to white foreigners as farangs.

Actually it is considered rude to use a person's skin color to describe them, is that not the case in Australia?

What about non-white foreigners!

I seem to remember that a 10 year old Mexican-American boy sang the national anthem at NBA game 3, that caused an uproar as (a wetback singing our national anthem) he was dressed in a mariachi suit. I remember well because that was three days ago. To the credit of the City of San Antonio, Texas they had (the born and raised San Antonio native) him return at the NBA game 4 to sing the national anthem again.

As the cultural divide as it exist in Thailand is not an issue that involve the Thai people it is a Falang issue of people that moved to Thailand, that feel that Thai's should change the ways they live in (their) own country to make the country more appealing to the Falang"s!

Cheers:

Edited June 15, 2013 by kikoman

[Kitsune]

Got to like this guy!

-

Either not actually Thai (on the Internet no knows you're a dog)

or taking the piss

or raised overseas and doesn't understand his own culture

or mentally disturbed

or something.

But what he says on this matter is pure <deleted>.

Wow you know better than the Thai themselves !

[ABCer]

Some people would benefit from taking pride in their own 'culture' irrespectively of their location. Maybe this would lead to other 'cultures' recognizing their values and difference.

I have met far too many members on TV who insist on 'conversion' on the basis of locality. "You must learn language", "You have to like local food", "You must accept local culture, customs, beliefs, way of life" ... or go back.

I observe local taboos, I try to formally (on the surface) follow rules, I do make allowances for local cultural differences, but I have my own language, my own culture, my own rules, taboos and beliefs and never allow them to be overridden. Many people here talk of respect. And how to earn it. I say, - respect yourself first! Maybe you will not suffer so much?

I could give hundreds of examples: I don't spit, I don't point with my feet, I can use fork, chopsticks or hands, depending on food and my mood, I take shoes off, I don't touch boys on their head ... but, please, do not call this Culture. Do not try to intimidate me with insignificances. To me Culture is Rodin, Michelangelo, Petrarch, Ovid, Balzac, Tolstoy, Shakspeare, Van Gogh, Rembrandt, Einstein, Rome, Paris, Madrid, St. Petersburg, Venice and thousands of other things... which Thais do not have. What is much worse - majority of them know nothing about them! And to top it - majority does not want to know! This is why I often say, - the more people talk about culture, the less there is to talk about.

Surely there are educated, cultured Thais, but... how many?... how many of them an average Expat knows?... and if you are lucky, you will have to admit that they are not going to push onto you their 'culture' or their 'Thainess'.

Edited June 15, 2013 by ABCer

[boosta]

Wow you know better than the Thai themselves !

-

Have you personally seen his ID card?

If so, then I'm holding to my claim that one of the other factors is the cause of this bizarre claim.

In the meantime I'm calling BS on his claim to being Thai.

[ABCer]

Here we go again

In my country it is rude to refer to white foreigners as farangs.

Actually it is considered rude to use a person's skin color to describe them, is that not the case in Australia?

-

Which one is Kim?

She's the black girl talking to that big guy over there.

He's the Asian at the punch bowl.

He's the white guy with the jacket and tie.

None of these are rude in any culture I've lived in.

Hypersensitive politically correct people might be trying to make it so, but IMO they're idiots, such terms - as with farang - are only derogatory if that's the intention of the speaker, easily identified by the context and tone of voice.

It is said that "you dog" or "son-of-a-bitch" or "bastard" sounds insulting only to a person not sure who was his mother...

Edited June 15, 2013 by ABCer

[Gsxrnz]

All this drama about the use and meaning of "Falang/Farang". I've talked to many Thais about it's usage and concluded it is just a word used to describe a Caucasian. It may have initially been a derogatory term when first used, but as language is constantly developing, it has morphed into the common usage word to describe a Caucasian.

Obviously the user can impart adjectives or demeanour that can make its usage derogatory. I do it myself, I see a Caucasian dolt doing something stupid in a bar or on a bike and I mutter "kwai falang" to myself. Seems to fit the situation quite well, being in Thailand and all!

In NZ a Caucasian is called Pakeha by the native Maori. Initially two centuries ago this was believed to be a derogatory term, now it's accepted as being the appropriate word to describe a NZ European - it's even used in legislation. But if a Maori calls you an <deleted> Pakeha, you're being insulted, just as if I refer to him as being Maori, it's polite. If I call him an <deleted> Maori.....I'll be in hospital!

Maybe some of the Falang in Thailand that don't like being referred to as Falang can tell by the usage or manner of the speaker that it's normally being used in a derogatory form......and they're probably the type of person that a Maori would usually refer to as an <deleted> Pakeha.

[boosta]

Some people would benefit from taking pride in their own 'culture' irrespectively of their location.

-

The wider definition is that of cultural anthropology and sociology, everything that shapes a people's way of life, how they think and act, including linguistics, beliefs, customs, norms and value systems.

What you're talking about, art and "high culture" is a completely different topic.

However your assertion of superiority of the west is a great example of the root cause of so much unhappiness, not just to many without-a-clue expats here.

I would be much more proud of my society's culture if its leaders actually tried to live up to its values. I know I can have a much greater impact on my own society than trying to impose my foreign values on Thailand, so that's where I would start if I wanted to be an activist.

[Kitsune]

Some people would benefit from taking pride in their own 'culture' irrespectively of their location.

-

The wider definition is that of cultural anthropology and sociology, everything that shapes a people's way of life, how they think and act, including linguistics, beliefs, customs, norms and value systems.

What you're talking about, art and "high culture" is a completely different topic.

However your assertion of superiority of the west is a great example of the root cause of so much unhappiness, not just to many without-a-clue expats here.

I would be much more proud of my society's culture if its leaders actually tried to live up to its values. I know I can have a much greater impact on my own society than trying to impose my foreign values on Thailand, so that's where I would start if I wanted to be an activist.

Remind me of Thai values again ?

Last time I checked it was Money, Patriotism and Face.

Is that what we should all be working on ?

As a farang the second value is just nonsensical.

Leave us with money and face ...

Edited June 15, 2013 by Kitsune

[Dr Robert]

It seems that the cultural divide referred to by the OP is just as valid when applied to the posters in here, falang or otherwise. Embrace the diversity and enjoy the benefits of difference. The alternative is a cookie cutter culture all-the-samenia set of views that flies in the face of evolutionary robustness and which just doesnt bear thinking about.

[Gsxrnz]

Had to be the white guy with the jacket and tie.

"Teacher teacher!"

Disrespectful rather than "Mr. Boosta"??

Not sure if you're posing a question or implying something I don't understand. I understood that in Thai, it's polite to address by profession, as in Kuhn Kruu, Kuhn Moh etc. Is that what you're implying?

[boosta]

Is that what we should all be working on ?

-

I don't think anyone's advocating for us adopting Thai cultural values. Just not using our own as a "right vs wrong" lens used to cast judgment, venting moral outrage over stuff that usually isn't important or doesn't affect us anyway.

When it is a genuine moral issue by objective standards and it does affect us, and we then want to make it our business to try to affect change, the go out and try to do so by communicating with the Thais, and good luck to you.

But B&M'ing about it here really doesn't accomplish much does it.

And saying "Thais are disgusting" because you saw someone picking their nose or spitting in the street is - well. . .

words fail me.