nicknostitz Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 One final thought: do you actively partake in these trials because of 'human rights abuses' or because red shirt defence lawyers like to use your 'evidence'? The Saichon case i have only observed. I have testified in exactly two trials - the Channarong case, and the Narongrit case. The Channarong case is personal - i nearly died there as well, and how should i explain it... it leaves a lasting impression when i guy you were just joking around with is shot only three meters or so away from you in a 16 minute barrage of almost continuous gunfire, and there is nothing you can do to help him, and then, after he finally made it out of that corner, over the wall, i had to pull him out of the pool of water he slipped in, and i quite possibly heard the last words he has said before he died. And i then, a month later, told his daughter how her father died. How on earth can i not be a witness? In the Narongrit case police asked me to be a witness as they had no witness who was on the side of the military when Narongrit was shot in the friendly fire incident (and yes, his death deeply disturbed me as well). Reluctantly i agreed to testify. You have no idea how much grief it has cost me and my family to be a witness. Since three years i permanently have to look over my shoulder wherever i go to. There were times i was under police protection - like in the movies, bodyguards, safe house, and the works. I had not really anything to do all with Red Shirt lawyers in the build up of the cases - it was police, DSI and prosecutors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicknostitz Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 Over the last three years we have had various conflicting 'statements' from posters here about the time the fire started, restarted and when the area was possibly secured. Wat Patum seems to have become 'scary' later in the evening / night. Around 7 or 8PM CWT seemed to be on fire to the extend of no longer allowing anyone to stay inside. May I ask at what time k. Pinit was arrested in CWT? There were actually two fires. Without going into my notes, as far as i can remember the first one began at about 14.00 and was quickly brought under control, and the second one sometime around 16.00. Again, just from my memory, and i might be wrong, i think Pinit was arrested sometime before the second fire started. But i could be wrong there. The Wat Pratum killings happened at sunset, sometime around 18.30. The people in the temple were the whole night terrified. When i came i the morning of the 20th in with the police, when they got the people out of the temple as the military wanted to move in, i can only say that the scenes i saw were heartbreaking: the people in there were shell shocked, crying, hugging the police officers... in short - it was bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicknostitz Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 <snip> Does that make me red, communist or just honest in my opinion? <snip> It makes you quite realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicknostitz Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 (edited) <snip> Like Nick I would assume the fire was lit by the reds or red sympathisers but what I cant get my head around is why they would do this after the central management provided them with support during their occupation. Human nature. After the last six day of complete chaos and killings, some people just went mad. Just look at other countries - LA riots, Tunisia, etc. I was actually positively surprised how few buildings got burned down, after all that happened. I expected to see a lot worse when i went out again in the morning of the 20th. Edited June 22, 2013 by nicknostitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoodMaiDai Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 I'm guessing that poor sod of a farang they kicked out of here for his involvement won't be appealed. After all, it was all his fault anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubl Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 Over the last three years we have had various conflicting 'statements' from posters here about the time the fire started, restarted and when the area was possibly secured. Wat Patum seems to have become 'scary' later in the evening / night. Around 7 or 8PM CWT seemed to be on fire to the extend of no longer allowing anyone to stay inside. May I ask at what time k. Pinit was arrested in CWT? There were actually two fires. Without going into my notes, as far as i can remember the first one began at about 14.00 and was quickly brought under control, and the second one sometime around 16.00. Again, just from my memory, and i might be wrong, i think Pinit was arrested sometime before the second fire started. But i could be wrong there. The Wat Pratum killings happened at sunset, sometime around 18.30. The people in the temple were the whole night terrified. When i came i the morning of the 20th in with the police, when they got the people out of the temple as the military wanted to move in, i can only say that the scenes i saw were heartbreaking: the people in there were shell shocked, crying, hugging the police officers... in short - it was bad. Nick, I don't want to sound cold-blooded, but more like the 'advocate of the devil' here. I'm just trying to understand the route and timing of the route k. Pinit took. In that sense your description on the follow up has nothing to do with the Pinit case. Somehow the 'evidence' presented doesn't seem to explain or justify why allegedly "he went first to Wat Patum, then, when he got scared , tried to get into the police hospital, which he couldn't, and escaped from the explosions and gunfire into Central World, where he was arrested with other protesters" Keep in mind that the actual timing of events is very important, not only in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubl Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 BTW in March we had Olivier Rotrou, 48, owner of Line Press photography company in France. insist that a military unit which he followed during the army's crackdown on red-shirt protesters in 2010 was not responsible for the deaths of six people at Wat Pathumwanaram. Somehow all information we've got on the Wat Pathum deaths and any army / terrorists / unknowns / red-shirts activity before including the CWT and Zen fire is very confusing, contradicting and bound to take a legion of good investigators to sort out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rixalex Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 <snip> There is nothing genuine or heartfelt about the red shirt movement. If the money dried up, that would be it. <snip> I think you have never observed any Red Shirt protest or meeting. Otherwise you would not say that. I walked through the red shirt protests in Bangkok frequently, before things got ugly... actually, with Thaksin's phizog looking back at you everywhere from T-shirts, banners and other assorted memorabilia, things were already pretty ugly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rixalex Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 I would have thought that all major demonstrations are organized, whether redshirt or the the various incarnations of proto fascism (Pitak Siam etc).You would have thought wrong then. Plenty of examples from around the world throughout history of governments, states, organisations etc, doing something that causes an immediate and spontaneous reaction by the people, who without being told or instructed what to do, take to the streets. The sort of thing that could well have happened in Thailand the day after the 19th September 2006, had people really been outraged and upset about the coup as we are now told by red leaders that they were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rixalex Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 And in response to your doubts whether the redshirt movement has passion and substance, one can only echo Nick Nostitz: "I think you have never observed any Red Shirt protest or meeting. Otherwise you would not say that." A funny thing for the person who has previously scoffed and laughed at the idea that people who were actually here, living through what happened, and seeing things first hand, (albeit maybe not from the front line of the action like Nick, but nevertheless working and living in and around it) are any better qualified to comment than someone who was miles and miles away from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whybother Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 Over the last three years we have had various conflicting 'statements' from posters here about the time the fire started, restarted and when the area was possibly secured. Wat Patum seems to have become 'scary' later in the evening / night. Around 7 or 8PM CWT seemed to be on fire to the extend of no longer allowing anyone to stay inside. May I ask at what time k. Pinit was arrested in CWT? There were actually two fires. Without going into my notes, as far as i can remember the first one began at about 14.00 and was quickly brought under control, and the second one sometime around 16.00. Again, just from my memory, and i might be wrong, i think Pinit was arrested sometime before the second fire started. But i could be wrong there. The Wat Pratum killings happened at sunset, sometime around 18.30. The people in the temple were the whole night terrified. When i came i the morning of the 20th in with the police, when they got the people out of the temple as the military wanted to move in, i can only say that the scenes i saw were heartbreaking: the people in there were shell shocked, crying, hugging the police officers... in short - it was bad. Was the 16:00 fire in the same place as the 14:00 fire, or in a completely different location? Do you know where / when the photos of red shirts throwing tyres into the burning building were taken? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicknostitz Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 Was the 16:00 fire in the same place as the 14:00 fire, or in a completely different location? Do you know where / when the photos of red shirts throwing tyres into the burning building were taken? I am not sure about that right now. It would take some digging, for which i haven't got the time right now. Sorry, but i gotta go out soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrybankruad Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 The sequence of events dictating the course of what happens during such demonstrations (or any other event where numbers of people are involved) is IMO controlled these days by the availability of the mobile phone. Roaming groups of militants (or non militants for that matter) can be in instant communication with other likewise minded individuals. Within a very short space of time with this type of phone large numbers of individuals can be contacted and instructions given. Flash mobs can, and are easily and quickly assembled. I'm not stating that this is what happened in the period under discussion, but just making an observation that the formation of such events can be quite different to what it was ten years ago. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomross46 Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 Funny how you seem to know everybody. Are you accusing me of lying here? You are not being accused of lying, what you are being accused of acting like you know every thing. It is called a know it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubl Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 In December 2010 74 photo's emerged, from the DSI files it was suggested. The interpretation is interesting. I'm sure most here has seen and read, but just as a refresher:http://asiancorrespondent.com/43506/photos-from-may-19-an-update/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antfish Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 Just because 2 individual red shirts were acquitted does not mean that it wasn't red shirts that burnt down the building. Who else did it then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whybother Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 Just because 2 individual red shirts were acquitted does not mean that it wasn't red shirts that burnt down the building. Who else did it then? Some other red shirts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metisdead Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 A number of posts and replies not even discussing the Attorney Appeals Court Ruling on 2010 Central World Arson topic have been removed (off topic). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thai at Heart Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 Just because 2 individual red shirts were acquitted does not mean that it wasn't red shirts that burnt down the building.Who else did it then? The scarlet pimpernel Odds are on some other reds. But, tit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubl Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 Who did it then? Some other reds?Not at all. After the acquittal in March 2013 of the two red-shirts we had the honorable Pheu Thai party list MP and UDD leader Dr. weng say""Today's ruling proves that Red Shirt protesters did not burn down Central World,"" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waza Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 (edited) In December 2010 74 photo's emerged, from the DSI files it was suggested. The interpretation is interesting. I'm sure most here has seen and read, but just as a refresher: http://asiancorrespondent.com/43506/photos-from-may-19-an-update/ The pics wont load for me, the text is there. 404. That’s an error. The requested URL was not found on this server. That’s all we know. But I was able to view some here... https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YGaEjzKrB-K7piMYkRmTCE7PkhQJgd9Y1Y9z2IgHrZY/edit?pli=1 Note not all 74 pics were published in these news article and the facebook page all 74 were loaded onto has been closed. note the rubbish packed under the escalator Edited June 24, 2013 by waza Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thai at Heart Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 In December 2010 74 photo's emerged, from the DSI files it was suggested. The interpretation is interesting. I'm sure most here has seen and read, but just as a refresher: http://asiancorrespondent.com/43506/photos-from-may-19-an-update/ The pics wont load for me, the text is there.404. Thats an error. The requested URL was not found on this server. Thats all we know. But I was able to view some here... https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YGaEjzKrB-K7piMYkRmTCE7PkhQJgd9Y1Y9z2IgHrZY/edit?pli=1 Note not all 74 pics were published in these news article and the facebook page all 74 were loaded onto has been closed. central fire.jpg note the rubbish packed under the escalator There was a report on TV this morning showing a mill where every square inch has been filled up with rice. Even the production hall was filled with rice because there is nowhere to transport it to. The report mentioned a small percentage that had yellowed already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waza Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 In December 2010 74 photo's emerged, from the DSI files it was suggested. The interpretation is interesting. I'm sure most here has seen and read, but just as a refresher: http://asiancorrespondent.com/43506/photos-from-may-19-an-update/ The pics wont load for me, the text is there.404. Thats an error. The requested URL was not found on this server. Thats all we know. But I was able to view some here... https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YGaEjzKrB-K7piMYkRmTCE7PkhQJgd9Y1Y9z2IgHrZY/edit?pli=1 Note not all 74 pics were published in these news article and the facebook page all 74 were loaded onto has been closed. central fire.jpg note the rubbish packed under the escalator There was a report on TV this morning showing a mill where every square inch has been filled up with rice. Even the production hall was filled with rice because there is nowhere to transport it to. The report mentioned a small percentage that had yellowed already. Cant see that in the pic, TAH, but I can see an electrical cable coming from the floor above and termination in the pile of rubbish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubl Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 (edited) Over the last three years we have had various conflicting 'statements' from posters here about the time the fire started, restarted and when the area was possibly secured. Wat Patum seems to have become 'scary' later in the evening / night. Around 7 or 8PM CWT seemed to be on fire to the extend of no longer allowing anyone to stay inside. May I ask at what time k. Pinit was arrested in CWT? There were actually two fires. Without going into my notes, as far as i can remember the first one began at about 14.00 and was quickly brought under control, and the second one sometime around 16.00. Again, just from my memory, and i might be wrong, i think Pinit was arrested sometime before the second fire started. But i could be wrong there. The Wat Pratum killings happened at sunset, sometime around 18.30. The people in the temple were the whole night terrified. When i came i the morning of the 20th in with the police, when they got the people out of the temple as the military wanted to move in, i can only say that the scenes i saw were heartbreaking: the people in there were shell shocked, crying, hugging the police officers... in short - it was bad. Nick, I don't want to sound cold-blooded, but more like the 'advocate of the devil' here. I'm just trying to understand the route and timing of the route k. Pinit took. In that sense your description on the follow up has nothing to do with the Pinit case. Somehow the 'evidence' presented doesn't seem to explain or justify why allegedly "he went first to Wat Patum, then, when he got scared , tried to get into the police hospital, which he couldn't, and escaped from the explosions and gunfire into Central World, where he was arrested with other protesters" Keep in mind that the actual timing of events is very important, not only in this case. Nick, seeing you have joined us today, may I ask if you found time to check on the timeline of events? As I wrote the route of k. Pinit you described seemed somewhat strange. Your remark "The only thing that is slightly confusing still details over the time line when and exactly from where armed militants fired at the soldiers in front (or from inside) the temple." (last sentence from a post which seems removed) doesn't help either as the (alleged) army shooting as the temple with the killing of six people was possibly around 18:30. What time did the second fire in CWT start? If around 16:00 I start to get real doubt on the logic of k. Pinit's route. In all this I still accept the verdict announced in March, 2013 with "The court said that CentralWorld security guards identified Mr Saichon and Mr Pinit as the men in the surveillance photos but it could not be confirmed that the pair carried any equipment to set fire on the building, nor did they show any behaviour of having an intention to do so.". I assume the attorney appealing the verdict has valid legal reasons for doing so, but the KhaoSod article doesn't give info on that. Edited June 25, 2013 by rubl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicknostitz Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 (edited) Nick, seeing you have joined us today, may I ask if you found time to check on the timeline of events? As I wrote the route of k. Pinit you described seemed somewhat strange. Your remark "The only thing that is slightly confusing still details over the time line when and exactly from where armed militants fired at the soldiers in front (or from inside) the temple." (last sentence from a post which seems removed) doesn't help either as the (alleged) army shooting as the temple with the killing of six people was possibly around 18:30. What time did the second fire in CWT start? If around 16:00 I start to get real doubt on the logic of k. Pinit's route. In all this I still accept the verdict announced in March, 2013 with "The court said that CentralWorld security guards identified Mr Saichon and Mr Pinit as the men in the surveillance photos but it could not be confirmed that the pair carried any equipment to set fire on the building, nor did they show any behaviour of having an intention to do so.". I assume the attorney appealing the verdict has valid legal reasons for doing so, but the KhaoSod article doesn't give info on that. Maybe i might dig a bit later in my notes - i have a large box of them, and it will take quite some time. The logic in Pinit's route is that he was terrified (which is quite understandable, given the chaos there. I was as well). He first, when the leaders called off the protest, went with other protesters into Wat Patum. He then left the temple shortly after (as i can remember it was either because he lost a relative, or was very scared there - or both), and tried to get into the police hospital, into which many protesters escaped into. But there the doors were already closed (that i can confirm - i was inside), and due to the explosions there (that i can confirm as well - there were many explosions) he escaped into Central World, where he was arrested with several other protesters who escaped there as well. All of them were acquitted of the arson charges, by the way. One of them was convicted of looting, as he was caught with looted goods. Saichon was arrested about two weeks or so afterwards. He did not know Pinit before. Strangely though their cases were combined by the prosecutors. Anyhow, if the prosecution has legal reasons (which i somehow doubt), i will find out sooner or later. I am not sure, but i think first the appeal court will have to read through the prosecutions reason for appeal, and accept or deny it. We'll see. Edited June 25, 2013 by nicknostitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubl Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Maybe i might dig a bit later in my notes - i have a large box of them, and it will take quite some time. With this being the 21st century you might consider using some tools like a tabletPC, laptop, desktop to key-in your notes for safekeeping and easier retrieval. Keep in mind that unless properly stored paper notes don't last long in Thailand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whybother Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 ... One of them was convicted of looting, as he was caught with looted goods. ... . The red shirts were looting???? Well, I never ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubl Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 The logic in Pinit's route is that he was terrified (which is quite understandable, given the chaos there. I was as well). He first, when the leaders called off the protest, went with other protesters into Wat Patum. He then left the temple shortly after (as i can remember it was either because he lost a relative, or was very scared there - or both), and tried to get into the police hospital, into which many protesters escaped into. But there the doors were already closed (that i can confirm - i was inside), and due to the explosions there (that i can confirm as well - there were many explosions) he escaped into Central World, where he was arrested with several other protesters who escaped there as well. All of them were acquitted of the arson charges, by the way. One of them was convicted of looting, as he was caught with looted goods. With possibly a fire in CWT around 14:00 and again around 16:00 (which lasted till a complete burn down), lots of explosions, army, militants, (police?), etc., etc. it seems that it was pure chaos with just about anybody being able to get in and out of CWT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicknostitz Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 The logic in Pinit's route is that he was terrified (which is quite understandable, given the chaos there. I was as well). He first, when the leaders called off the protest, went with other protesters into Wat Patum. He then left the temple shortly after (as i can remember it was either because he lost a relative, or was very scared there - or both), and tried to get into the police hospital, into which many protesters escaped into. But there the doors were already closed (that i can confirm - i was inside), and due to the explosions there (that i can confirm as well - there were many explosions) he escaped into Central World, where he was arrested with several other protesters who escaped there as well. All of them were acquitted of the arson charges, by the way. One of them was convicted of looting, as he was caught with looted goods. With possibly a fire in CWT around 14:00 and again around 16:00 (which lasted till a complete burn down), lots of explosions, army, militants, (police?), etc., etc. it seems that it was pure chaos with just about anybody being able to get in and out of CWT. Yes, it was pure chaos. And much conflicting information and confusion. There is, for example, a set of images existing, in which you see a group of soldiers hanging out in front of the burning Central World (maybe around 17.00 - given the stage of fire and light in the image) without care, quite obviously in complete control of Rajadamri Rd. By the color of the soldiers bandanas they were the unit that was stationed at Ploenchit. And yes, police was there - if you may remember, a police officer led a few hundred employees of Central World out of there. With this being the 21st century you might consider using some tools like a tabletPC, laptop, desktop to key-in your notes for safekeeping and easier retrieval. Keep in mind that unless properly stored paper notes don't last long in Thailand. tablet PC and these sort of things are just more fragile thing to carry around, i can't stand them (don't have a smart phone either, don't plan to get one). the cameras are heavy enough. a notebook and pen works all the time. once a while i scan my note books. <deleted> the 21st century - technology isn't all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubl Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 The logic in Pinit's route is that he was terrified (which is quite understandable, given the chaos there. I was as well). He first, when the leaders called off the protest, went with other protesters into Wat Patum. He then left the temple shortly after (as i can remember it was either because he lost a relative, or was very scared there - or both), and tried to get into the police hospital, into which many protesters escaped into. But there the doors were already closed (that i can confirm - i was inside), and due to the explosions there (that i can confirm as well - there were many explosions) he escaped into Central World, where he was arrested with several other protesters who escaped there as well. All of them were acquitted of the arson charges, by the way. One of them was convicted of looting, as he was caught with looted goods. With possibly a fire in CWT around 14:00 and again around 16:00 (which lasted till a complete burn down), lots of explosions, army, militants, (police?), etc., etc. it seems that it was pure chaos with just about anybody being able to get in and out of CWT. Yes, it was pure chaos. And much conflicting information and confusion. There is, for example, a set of images existing, in which you see a group of soldiers hanging out in front of the burning Central World (maybe around 17.00 - given the stage of fire and light in the image) without care, quite obviously in complete control of Rajadamri Rd. By the color of the soldiers bandanas they were the unit that was stationed at Ploenchit. And yes, police was there - if you may remember, a police officer led a few hundred employees of Central World out of there. With this being the 21st century you might consider using some tools like a tabletPC, laptop, desktop to key-in your notes for safekeeping and easier retrieval. Keep in mind that unless properly stored paper notes don't last long in Thailand. tablet PC and these sort of things are just more fragile thing to carry around, i can't stand them (don't have a smart phone either, don't plan to get one). the cameras are heavy enough. a notebook and pen works all the time. once a while i scan my note books. <deleted> the 21st century - technology isn't all. No offence meant, but anything past 16:00 seems somewhat beyond the scope of the case against k. Pinit. When the fire was like this I assume he was already out of the building(s). PS regarding carrying things around, you're right. Still 'once in a while scan' seems a bit too infrequent. The advantage of scanning or keying-in again the same day or days is the chance to add things you saw/heard but for which you didn't get time to scribble down running around, hiding from gunfire or simply being in the dark (of night). Any notes you add weeks later will be 'filtered' by what has happened since, emotions, bias, forgotten items, etc. IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.png.3b3332cc2256ad0edbc2fe9404feeef0.png)
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now