kawa ninja 650r ABS problem

[illy]

been having a problem with my rear pedal sticking which turned into the pedal jamming so the rear brake cant be used.

took it kawasaki phuket, replaced a seemingly unneccessary part....didnt fix the problem....took it back today, they tell me the ABS system has failed and is 20000bht to fix.

does this sound right?

any one else had the same problem? would like to just disconnect the ABS system if safe to do so. [every other bike i have owned has never had ABS anyway]

any one got any thoughts or advise? and of course the bike is just out of warranty!

illy

[KRS1]

is the rear brake stuck and currently braking the rearwheel at all times?

or does it do nothing when you step on the brake pedal?

[Ticketmaster]

It's my worst nightmare. I do not know the cost of the ABS system, but I do know it is very complex and will be expensive. BUT and this is a BIG BUT, don't let them fuc_king touch it until you have taken it to Kawasaki in BKK or some other more reliable (note: I did NOT say reliable) place for troubleshooting to confirm this is really the problem. Thai mechanics are notorious for just replacing parts until the problem is fixed without ever knowing exactly what the problem was. They also do not want to lose face, so they will insist that they know, even thought they are completely full of shit.

Does the ABS fault light come on? Is the shop trouble shooting your bike with their computer and diagnostic software (all Thai Kawa shops have it, few know how to use it)?

I have worked on my brakes (ER6n), including replacing all the brake lines to the ABS unit, and frankly, I cannot EVEN IMAGINE how a faulty ABS unit would cause a brake pedal to seem to stick. It is more likely that the brake pedal is bent slightly or something. Typically, an ABS failure will be electronic. If it had a fault that was causing one of the cylinders to close the rear brake, the brake would be on. Is it? Is the rear wheel locked? Does your brake light stay on? Is the return spring on there and attached? Is the rear master cylinder frozen? The ABS unit is the LAST thing I would let them touch.

If you want to call another shop for a price check on the actual ABS pump assembly, or check another country on the internet, the part number is 16082-0033 [for the 2009-2010].

In case you do not have it, I have tried to attach the 2010 shop manual to help you troubleshoot. I kept getting an "upload Skipped (Error IO)" message, so, if you want it, PM me with your e-mail address and 'll send it on that way. I also have the Parts Manual in pdf for the 2010 model year, 8mb.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Ticketmaster

[illy]

hi guys.

the brake lever is stuck "OFF" meaning i cant press it down. the ABS or brake warning lights are off.

i cant get the bike to bkk as i live and work in phuket and simply havent got enough time.

they replaced the small brake cylinder near the pedal itself.

there is no problem with the mechanical movemnet of or the returning of the rake pedal.

the problem stated with the brake pedal getting stuck but it would eventually free up and work as normal. that went on for a month or so. now no matter how hard i press the pedal wont move while connected to the brake system. when disconnected it with move so its not a brake lever problem its something in the system itself. i am not very mechanical but i can tell these guys at kawa phuket are out of their depth on anything but oil and filter changes

illy

[B1ade]

I would start by disabling the ABS, pull the fuse as per: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/639258-er6n-abs-can-you-disable-it/

I'm no abs pro, but obviously its job is to release the brakes for a fraction of a second on wheel lock, so possibly a failure in the sensor... Just trying to think logically. The kawa guys in phuket are not great, i had an er6 and currently have a d-tracker, fine for general servicing but not for fault finding. Might be worth taking it to a bike dealer in phuket who has more experience with abs as all their models has it, bmw or ducati? theres no many of them mind you

[wantan]

I first have to say that i have absolutely no clue about ABS in general, neither on cars nor on bikes

Yes maybe B1ade is right. A failure at the sensor. But then the brake should move when the ignition is turned off, shouldn't it?
Or maybe the modulator is stuck, the valves or the hydraulic cyclinder stuck, so the pressure that forces the brake to "open" won't reduce?

Interesting problem. what exactly does your Kawa center want tor replace? Everything regarding ABS? What exactly? But maybe they don't know either

Edited June 25, 2013 by wantan

[wantan]

While filling my washing machine i had another thought what i would check on my bike

Is the lever moveable if ignition is off?

Then it may be an electrical fault (sensor, or electronic control...). If the lever stucks even when ignition is off then it may be a mechanical fault (hydraulic piston stuck or valve failure...).

[illy]

the lever will not move when ignition is turned off it is jammed in the off/no brake position[or was....read below]

i am pretty sure the kawa boys in phuket are just replacing parts as they go with no idea what the fault is.

i asked then to disable the ABS but they they now have disconnected the whioe rear brake system would you believe?

so now i will try another bike shop. i have a feeling that if spend 20000baht on a new abs cylinder/sensor arrangement it may not still fix the problem.

lucky for me the parts they have attepted to fix and replace have only cost me about 1200baht, but i dont fancy handing over 20000 baht and up only to discover it was something else.

[illy]

I would start by disabling the ABS, pull the fuse as per: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/639258-er6n-abs-can-you-disable-it/

I'm no abs pro, but obviously its job is to release the brakes for a fraction of a second on wheel lock, so possibly a failure in the sensor... Just trying to think logically. The kawa guys in phuket are not great, i had an er6 and currently have a d-tracker, fine for general servicing but not for fault finding. Might be worth taking it to a bike dealer in phuket who has more experience with abs as all their models has it, bmw or ducati? theres no many of them mind you

i think it for sure a mechanical/hydraulic issue as the brake[pedal and caliper] simply wont move no matter what. however when the brake line is removed the brake lever will move so it not a simple lever problem its something in the fluid/cylinder/lines etc i think....and the brake line seems to lead to the ABS sensor before the caliper as far as i can see...i am just not mechanical enough to really know!!

Edited June 25, 2013 by illy

[mania]

i think it for sure a mechanical/hydraulic issue as the brake[pedal and caliper] simply wont move no matter what. however when the brake line is removed the brake lever will move so it not a simple lever problem its something in the fluid/cylinder/lines etc i think....and the brake line seems to lead to the ABS sensor before the caliper as far as i can see...i am just not mechanical enough to really know!!

Just a thought but now that you mentioned hydraulic

why don't you go open the bleed valve on the rear caliper & see if it frees the brake pedal?

Just to rule it out

Because as you said with line off it moves.

Edited June 25, 2013 by mania

[illy]

i think it for sure a mechanical/hydraulic issue as the brake[pedal and caliper] simply wont move no matter what. however when the brake line is removed the brake lever will move so it not a simple lever problem its something in the fluid/cylinder/lines etc i think....and the brake line seems to lead to the ABS sensor before the caliper as far as i can see...i am just not mechanical enough to really know!!

Just a thought but now that you mentioned hydraulic

why don't you go open the bleed valve on the rear caliper & see if it frees the brake pedal?

Just to rule it out

Because as you said with line off it moves.

when the hydrilic system is 'open' the brake pedal itself will not move but the caliper will not, the caliper is also not stuck as you can move it with screw driver and is returning ok, which still leaves some sort of hydraulic problem??the next test is to physically bypass the ABS system and see if the brake system will work mechanically i guess... not sure of the safety aspects of that though.

[mania]

I never really looked at ABS & if had a choice would buy non-ABS

That aside the system is actually pretty complicated isn't it?

[KRS1]

Are all the ER6's ABS?

If not, you could probably run a brake line straight from the master cylinder to rear caliper and bypass the ABS.

I would do the same for the front also, just to avoid any surprises with the ABS.

[mania]

Are all the ER6's ABS?

No

But I think from this year they are ( In Thailand )

USA still lists both versions

Same as the Ducati Monster 795 now only with ABS available here.

Kawasaki ER6n picture

Edited June 25, 2013 by mania

[KRS1]

I would start by disabling the ABS, pull the fuse as per: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/639258-er6n-abs-can-you-disable-it/

I'm no abs pro, but obviously its job is to release the brakes for a fraction of a second on wheel lock, so possibly a failure in the sensor... Just trying to think logically. The kawa guys in phuket are not great, i had an er6 and currently have a d-tracker, fine for general servicing but not for fault finding. Might be worth taking it to a bike dealer in phuket who has more experience with abs as all their models has it, bmw or ducati? theres no many of them mind you

i think it for sure a mechanical/hydraulic issue as the brake[pedal and caliper] simply wont move no matter what. however when the brake line is removed the brake lever will move so it not a simple lever problem its something in the fluid/cylinder/lines etc i think....and the brake line seems to lead to the ABS sensor before the caliper as far as i can see...i am just not mechanical enough to really know!!

which brake line? master cylinder to abs or abs to caliper?

[wantan]

I would take a service manual and try all the things i am halfly sure i understand to narrow it dow. i would even open some fluid lines to see when the lever gets free. The rear brake isn't working so there is nothing to make it worser imo. Try to clean all sensors and connectors like described in the manual.

For me it sounds like the ABS Hydraulic Unit has a failure. Then you would have to replace the complete unit.

ABS shouldn't work without ignition turned on i guess. So there must be some hydraulic valve/cylinder stuck inside the ABS unit. Just my thoughts without knowing nothing

[wantan]

Maybe this diagram helps to understand whats going on?

1. ECU
2. ABS Indicator Light (LED)
3. Pump Motor
4. Pump
5. Front Reservoir
6. Front Inlet Solenoid Valve
7. Front Outlet Solenoid Valve
8. Rear Inlet Solenoid Valve
9. Rear Outlet Solenoid Valve
10. Brake Lever
11. Brake Pedal
12. ABS Hydraulic Unit
13. Front Brake Caliper
14. Front Wheel Rotation Sensor
15. Front Wheel Rotation Sensor Rotor
16. Rear Brake Caliper
17. Rear Wheel Rotation Sensor
18. Rear Wheel Rotation Sensor Rotor
19. ABS Kawasaki Self-diagnosis System Connector
20. ABS Solenoid Valve Relay
21. ABS Motor Relay
22. Rear Reservoir

http://www.wiringdiagrams21.com/2013/02/05/kawasaki-ninja-650r-abs-total-system-diagram/

My guess would be a failure of the "Rear Inlet(or)Outlet Solenoid Valve" (8 + 9) or a failure in the controls of these valves. All inside the ABS Hydraulic Unit (12).

[illy]

I would start by disabling the ABS, pull the fuse as per: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/639258-er6n-abs-can-you-disable-it/

I'm no abs pro, but obviously its job is to release the brakes for a fraction of a second on wheel lock, so possibly a failure in the sensor... Just trying to think logically. The kawa guys in phuket are not great, i had an er6 and currently have a d-tracker, fine for general servicing but not for fault finding. Might be worth taking it to a bike dealer in phuket who has more experience with abs as all their models has it, bmw or ducati? theres no many of them mind you

i think it for sure a mechanical/hydraulic issue as the brake[pedal and caliper] simply wont move no matter what. however when the brake line is removed the brake lever will move so it not a simple lever problem its something in the fluid/cylinder/lines etc i think....and the brake line seems to lead to the ABS sensor before the caliper as far as i can see...i am just not mechanical enough to really know!!

which brake line? master cylinder to abs or abs to caliper?

i am going to try to have the brake line from the m/cylinder go straight to the caliper and see if it works ok...i am still not sure which of the lines is causing the problem and the kawa boys have somehow made it so nothing works at all on the rear brake even though everything is connected and i cant ask them as they dont speak english well at all.

[illy]

I never really looked at ABS & if had a choice would buy non-ABS

That aside the system is actually pretty complicated isn't it?

I never really looked at ABS & if had a choice would buy non-ABS

That aside the system is actually pretty complicated isn't it?

no wonder the phuket kawa boys cant fix it!!! at least the front and rear ABS seem to be different sections but that combined ABS control unit has me worried.

[illy]

Maybe this diagram helps to understand whats going on?

1. ECU

2. ABS Indicator Light (LED)

3. Pump Motor

4. Pump

5. Front Reservoir

6. Front Inlet Solenoid Valve

7. Front Outlet Solenoid Valve

8. Rear Inlet Solenoid Valve

9. Rear Outlet Solenoid Valve

10. Brake Lever

11. Brake Pedal

12. ABS Hydraulic Unit

13. Front Brake Caliper

14. Front Wheel Rotation Sensor

15. Front Wheel Rotation Sensor Rotor

16. Rear Brake Caliper

17. Rear Wheel Rotation Sensor

18. Rear Wheel Rotation Sensor Rotor

19. ABS Kawasaki Self-diagnosis System Connector

20. ABS Solenoid Valve Relay

21. ABS Motor Relay

22. Rear Reservoir

http://www.wiringdiagrams21.com/2013/02/05/kawasaki-ninja-650r-abs-total-system-diagram/

My guess would be a failure of the "Rear Inlet(or)Outlet Solenoid Valve" (8 + 9) or a failure in the controls of these valves. All inside the ABS Hydraulic Unit (12).

yes its all inside the unit which cost 20000bht.. i never even wanted ABS on the bike but that model was the only one available at the time approx 2009 when i bought it, so i was lead to believe but...TIT

[illy]

Are all the ER6's ABS?

No

But I think from this year they are ( In Thailand )

USA still lists both versions

Same as the Ducati Monster 795 now only with ABS available here.

Kawasaki ER6n picture

in hindsight, much better without ABS if you have a problem like this!but i am sure i had no choice when i bought this bike

[wantan]

But ABS on the Ninja isn't that complicated:

But OK i understand, if you don't want to repair it then try to "bypass" ABS. But i would not want to buy such bike if you ever want to sell it

[illy]

But ABS on the Ninja isn't that complicated:

ER650D.png

But OK i understand, if you don't want to repair it then try to "bypass" ABS. But i would not want to buy such bike if you ever want to sell it

i want to bypass it until can afford to fix it, but its more that i am concerned that if i pay them 20000bht and then they say. "ok not fix...something else sorry..but you pay anyway falang!!" i will certainly fix it when i KNOW what the problems are, and you are right, i wouldnt sell it like it for sure.

Edited June 25, 2013 by illy

[wantan]

The master cylinder was replaced.

The caliper pistons are freely moving.

If the brake lines aren't "twisted", what else can it be than the ABS unit?

Try to find someone who is willing to let you try his ABS unit if you want to be 100% sure

Or get a used unit.

[illy]

The master cylinder was replaced.

The caliper pistons are freely moving.

If the brake lines aren't "twisted", what else can it be than the ABS unit?

Try to find someone who is willing to let you try his ABS unit if you want to be 100% sure

Or get a used unit.

good point.. i wonder if there any wrecked kawa ER6f or ER6n around in thailand to get a used unit. still the diagrams show there are few other parts in the ABS system that could have failed rather than the whole thing.

[wantan]

The master cylinder was replaced.

The caliper pistons are freely moving.

If the brake lines aren't "twisted", what else can it be than the ABS unit?

Try to find someone who is willing to let you try his ABS unit if you want to be 100% sure

Or get a used unit.

good point.. i wonder if there any wrecked kawa ER6f or ER6n around in thailand to get a used unit. still the diagrams show there are few other parts in the ABS system that could have failed rather than the whole thing.

What parts do you mean? I dont see any other parts or am i blind?

[angryfarang]

Definitely sounds like the ABS unit.

Remove the feed that goes from the master cylinder to the ABS unit at the ABS unit side. See if the brake pedal moves and fluid comes out, if it does, it's the ABS unit.

[KRS1]

I would start by disabling the ABS, pull the fuse as per: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/639258-er6n-abs-can-you-disable-it/

I'm no abs pro, but obviously its job is to release the brakes for a fraction of a second on wheel lock, so possibly a failure in the sensor... Just trying to think logically. The kawa guys in phuket are not great, i had an er6 and currently have a d-tracker, fine for general servicing but not for fault finding. Might be worth taking it to a bike dealer in phuket who has more experience with abs as all their models has it, bmw or ducati? theres no many of them mind you

i think it for sure a mechanical/hydraulic issue as the brake[pedal and caliper] simply wont move no matter what. however when the brake line is removed the brake lever will move so it not a simple lever problem its something in the fluid/cylinder/lines etc i think....and the brake line seems to lead to the ABS sensor before the caliper as far as i can see...i am just not mechanical enough to really know!!

which brake line? master cylinder to abs or abs to caliper?

i am going to try to have the brake line from the m/cylinder go straight to the caliper and see if it works ok...i am still not sure which of the lines is causing the problem and the kawa boys have somehow made it so nothing works at all on the rear brake even though everything is connected and i cant ask them as they dont speak english well at all.

A brake line from a non abs bike would more than likely fit, or a brake line from a ninja 250 or Dtracker may also work...fittings are pretty much standardized. Only thing i would be a little concerned about is the size of the master cylinders between non abs and abs bikes...but if they are the same part numbers, then more than likely your good to go.

Front brakes are going to be harder to do, since they are dual disc. But technically you can use non abs brake lines and be set.

Looks like a good time to upgrade to stainless brake lines

[kittosoft]

Imho. Bleed the rear brake, if it doesn't work then change the solenoid. Cause if it is the ABS having problems, there should be a error on your dash.

[wantan]

Another idea: Give the ABS unit a few slight hits with a hammer. Maybe the stucked valve opens. Then you know for sure its the unit if it happens again. And you should add a hammer to your bike toolset