kawa ninja 650r ABS problem

[Ticketmaster]

I admit, I'm no ABS expert, but I am a recovering lawyer. It is my understanding that when an ABS unit fails, (1) the light comes on; and (2) ABS stops functioning and your brakes go to a "non-ABS" state. Since you clarified that your brake is locked "off," and not on," I simply can't believe the problem is the ABS unit.

Kawasaki doesn't have a corner on ABS. The same general technology is used by all the manufactures of cars and motorcycles.

Can you imagine the lawsuits if, when an ABS unit failed, the brakes were locked off? No way. Your problem is a mysterious one, and you need to go through it all piece by piece, but if it turns out that the ABS pump or computer is causing the rear brake to be locked off, I'll drink your brake fluid.

I can say this. If a brake line is blocked, it would certainly cause your brakes to be locked off. My trouble shooting at this point would include disconnect the rear brake lines at every point -- both sides of the master cylinder, both sides of the ABS pump and at the caliper. With every thing disconnected the brake pedal should move freely, assuming no damage. Then connect the pedal side of the brake line to the master cylinder and try it again. If the pedal works, connect the other side of the master cylinder, then the MC side of the ABS pump, then the wheel side of the ABS pump and finally the caliper. The problem should show up in one of those segments. If the problem shows up at the ABS pump, I would suspect a blockage of some sort before I suspected a unit failure. Yes, this will be a messy, nasty job with brake fluid all over the place, but it's better than spending 20,000 baht on a pump you don't need. By the way, did you take a look at what a pain in the ass it will be to even get that pump out of there; it's right in the middle with no room for your hands. You might have to take off you shock to even get to the brake lines in there (I did).

I have NEVER EVER heard of a failed ABS unit in any vehicle causing a total brake failure. Never. and what you seem to have is a total rear brake failure.

By the way, usually ABS is relatively problem free. When I got my first ABS equipped bike (a Beemer R1150R) in the states, I was impressed. I mean if you really have to lock down the binders, you can go full force without balancing front and back to avoid going down. ABS is really quite a nice thing on a motorcycle IMHO. If you race or ride off road a lot, you are very used to using the brakes. But if 99% of your riding is just cruising around, one has a tendency to downshift, etc., to avoid unnecessarily using up brake pads. Braking skills can get rusty. For these people ABS is a blessing.

But I'll tell you this. If I thought an ABS failure would cause me to have NO BRAKES, I would be rid of the whole system in a hear beat.

[mania]

Very logically thought out plan ticketmaster

[illy]

yes good planning there ticket master..

the next issue is finding a mechanic who can speak good enough english to do this as i am not mechanical enough at all.

As you say i do see where the ABS unit is and its going to be pain to get to it.

secondly i have been in touch with my aussie mechanic who says its not advisable to disconnect the rear ABS brake line from the ABS unit as this unit controls BOTH the front and rear ABS apparently.

i havent found one thai mechanic yet that understands anything i am talking about in regard to finding where the problem is..they just want to replace parts NOT find the problem first. what i need is a fluent english speaking guy who can understand what i am talking about so i can run the alternatives first.

anyone know of such a person in phuket? [better PM me if you do as its a work permit issue in a way]

[KRS1]

youd have to replace both the rear AND front brake lines to bypass the ABS safely, as stated.

[wantan]

If noone has messed with the brake before, everything is original (no aftermarket "rear set", brake lines, etc.) and the bike was always properly serviced from authorized dealer, i would try to get in touch with Kawasaki headquarter and tell them about this issue. They should be interested to hear about this. And maybe they even offer to replace the system to be able investigate this fault. Who knows? As ticketmaster said, its a really bad fault. Imagine this happening on the front brake... Just a thought. Good luck.

[illy]

looked on the website. Kawasaki Thailand has no email details and to call them is the same as talking to the mechanics , their English is not so good. Kawasaki USA will not accept international enquires, but its a good idea and will keep at it

the bike is original and only serviced at Kawasaki Phuket

If noone has messed with the brake before, everything is original (no aftermarket "rear set", brake lines, etc.) and the bike was always properly serviced from authorized dealer, i would try to get in touch with Kawasaki headquarter and tell them about this issue. They should be interested to hear about this. And maybe they even offer to replace the system to be able investigate this fault. Who knows? As ticketmaster said, its a really bad fault. Imagine this happening on the front brake... Just a thought. Good luck.

[Ticketmaster]

yes good planning there ticket master..

the next issue is finding a mechanic who can speak good enough english to do this as i am not mechanical enough at all.

As you say i do see where the ABS unit is and its going to be pain to get to it.

secondly i have been in touch with my aussie mechanic who says its not advisable to disconnect the rear ABS brake line from the ABS unit as this unit controls BOTH the front and rear ABS apparently.

i havent found one thai mechanic yet that understands anything i am talking about in regard to finding where the problem is..they just want to replace parts NOT find the problem first. what i need is a fluent english speaking guy who can understand what i am talking about so i can run the alternatives first.

anyone know of such a person in phuket? [better PM me if you do as its a work permit issue in a way]

Wow, good luck finding a Thai "mechanic" to do this. I wouldn't even know how to begin to explain to a Thai what I wanted. But more than the language barrier is whether you can trust any of them enough to let them touch it. I would certainly stand over the guy and watch every move. DO NOT go out for coffee.

I would CERTAINLY follow-up on Wantan's suggestion. It is a VERY GOOD idea. But you may need a Thai that understands motorcycles and speaks English to do the talking. There are some folks at Rama 9 that speak enough English to get work done, but I have never been able to communicate with any of them on highly technical issues. You could pretend you are in GB and contact Kawasaki there by e-mail, just to see how they respond.

The ABS model wasn't available in the US a year or two ago. I think it was introduced on the 2013 model, so hasn't been there long enough to have this problem. If you contacted them and pretended to be in the US, they will probably insist on a serial number and that will give you away.

Take a look at this thread posted in February: http://www.kawiforums.com/ninja-650r-er6/207346-er6-f-2007-abs-brake-problem.html It looks like this guy has your exact problem on a 2007 model. Perhaps you could join the forum and PM the guy to see how it turned out.

I replaced all my stock brake lines with steel (seven pieces for ABS model). I did it myself, and yes, it was quite an undertaking. I didn't know what I was getting into.

[illy]

yes good planning there ticket master..

the next issue is finding a mechanic who can speak good enough english to do this as i am not mechanical enough at all.

As you say i do see where the ABS unit is and its going to be pain to get to it.

secondly i have been in touch with my aussie mechanic who says its not advisable to disconnect the rear ABS brake line from the ABS unit as this unit controls BOTH the front and rear ABS apparently.

i havent found one thai mechanic yet that understands anything i am talking about in regard to finding where the problem is..they just want to replace parts NOT find the problem first. what i need is a fluent english speaking guy who can understand what i am talking about so i can run the alternatives first.

anyone know of such a person in phuket? [better PM me if you do as its a work permit issue in a way]

Wow, good luck finding a Thai "mechanic" to do this. I wouldn't even know how to begin to explain to a Thai what I wanted. But more than the language barrier is whether you can trust any of them enough to let them touch it. I would certainly stand over the guy and watch every move. DO NOT go out for coffee.

I would CERTAINLY follow-up on Wantan's suggestion. It is a VERY GOOD idea. But you may need a Thai that understands motorcycles and speaks English to do the talking. There are some folks at Rama 9 that speak enough English to get work done, but I have never been able to communicate with any of them on highly technical issues. You could pretend you are in GB and contact Kawasaki there by e-mail, just to see how they respond.

The ABS model wasn't available in the US a year or two ago. I think it was introduced on the 2013 model, so hasn't been there long enough to have this problem. If you contacted them and pretended to be in the US, they will probably insist on a serial number and that will give you away.

Take a look at this thread posted in February: http://www.kawiforums.com/ninja-650r-er6/207346-er6-f-2007-abs-brake-problem.html It looks like this guy has your exact problem on a 2007 model. Perhaps you could join the forum and PM the guy to see how it turned out.

I replaced all my stock brake lines with steel (seven pieces for ABS model). I did it myself, and yes, it was quite an undertaking. I didn't know what I was getting into.

[illy]

yes good planning there ticket master..

the next issue is finding a mechanic who can speak good enough english to do this as i am not mechanical enough at all.

As you say i do see where the ABS unit is and its going to be pain to get to it.

secondly i have been in touch with my aussie mechanic who says its not advisable to disconnect the rear ABS brake line from the ABS unit as this unit controls BOTH the front and rear ABS apparently.

i havent found one thai mechanic yet that understands anything i am talking about in regard to finding where the problem is..they just want to replace parts NOT find the problem first. what i need is a fluent english speaking guy who can understand what i am talking about so i can run the alternatives first.

anyone know of such a person in phuket? [better PM me if you do as its a work permit issue in a way]

Wow, good luck finding a Thai "mechanic" to do this. I wouldn't even know how to begin to explain to a Thai what I wanted. But more than the language barrier is whether you can trust any of them enough to let them touch it. I would certainly stand over the guy and watch every move. DO NOT go out for coffee.

I would CERTAINLY follow-up on Wantan's suggestion. It is a VERY GOOD idea. But you may need a Thai that understands motorcycles and speaks English to do the talking. There are some folks at Rama 9 that speak enough English to get work done, but I have never been able to communicate with any of them on highly technical issues. You could pretend you are in GB and contact Kawasaki there by e-mail, just to see how they respond.

The ABS model wasn't available in the US a year or two ago. I think it was introduced on the 2013 model, so hasn't been there long enough to have this problem. If you contacted them and pretended to be in the US, they will probably insist on a serial number and that will give you away.

Take a look at this thread posted in February: http://www.kawiforums.com/ninja-650r-er6/207346-er6-f-2007-abs-brake-problem.html It looks like this guy has your exact problem on a 2007 model. Perhaps you could join the forum and PM the guy to see how it turned out.

I replaced all my stock brake lines with steel (seven pieces for ABS model). I did it myself, and yes, it was quite an undertaking. I didn't know what I was getting into.

exactly right ...i cannot find anyone who underdstands what i want and they dont listen to a word i say when ask then to do something they just look at me like i am stupid and go ahead and start f...ing around with stuff on the bike..and i am in phuket where the "talent pool" is much less than BKK. have PM the guy on the kawi forum...thanks for that link

[KRS1]

you can use google translate and show them a screenshot, or press the speaker button and it will speak, use your cell phone as a hot spot and bring your laptop.

http://translate.google.com/#auto/th/continue%20line%20brake%20directly%20from%20oil%20brake%20pot.%20to%20caliper

or use this and just point to the master cylinder and caliper

http://translate.google.com/#auto/th/continue%20line%20brake%20directly

bypass ABS

http://translate.google.com/#auto/th/bypass%20abs

The thai is correct, dont worry....press the button that looks like a speaker, i can mess with this all day

http://translate.google.com/#auto/th/itchy%20pussy

Edited June 27, 2013 by KRS1

[Ticketmaster]

You are in Phuket where the talent pool is low!? Try Phitsanulok where I live and there isn't any talent pool! That's why I just do everything myself. I did take the bike to the much acclaimed Rama 9 in BKK for the 42K valve adjustment. I wanted to watch, but they wouldn't let me. I was kind of pissed when they finished, because one exhaust valve was exactly on the minimum spec, so they did not change the shim. I would have insisted that they go up one so I would have a little latitude over the next 42K. I would hate to burn it.

I would have done the valve adjustment myself, but being in Phitsanulok, I can't just run out and buy one shim. To be sure I had a shim for every possibility, I would have had to buy four complete sets (two exhaust and two intake for each cylingder). I can't remember what that would cost, but I think it was 3-4,000 baht, not cheap. Next time, I'll just check the clearances and then drive down to Nakhon Sawan (100km) and buy the shims I need at the kawa shop there.

They also did not want me to leave my bike overnight. How in the hell can they adjust the valves cold if I ride it in just before they start working??? I finally talked them into letting me leave it there.

I also told them DO NOT CHANGE THE OIL, but they did it anyway and charged me for Shell oil, which I never use. I needed a tire and wanted a Michelin Pilot Road. I had my wife talk to them and they said they had one in stock. Luckily, before they started, I told them I wanted to see the tire. It was a Dunlop Road Smart. Then they told me they don't sell Michelin. I just said no thanks. And some other things. None of them listen -- or just don't understand and dismiss you. I was quite miffed about going all the way to BKK and they wouldn't let me watch. I never let anybody do anything to my bike without watching every move. If you don't watch, they skip applying grease and locking agents where indicated and won't use a torque wrench on anything. They also bang around with hammers and screw drivers and strip screws. Well like I said, my warranty's out, so I do it all myself now.

[illy]

you can use google translate and show them a screenshot, or press the speaker button and it will speak, use your cell phone as a hot spot and bring your laptop.

http://translate.google.com/#auto/th/continue%20line%20brake%20directly%20from%20oil%20brake%20pot.%20to%20caliper

or use this and just point to the master cylinder and caliper

http://translate.google.com/#auto/th/continue%20line%20brake%20directly

bypass ABS

http://translate.google.com/#auto/th/bypass%20abs

The thai is correct, dont worry....press the button that looks like a speaker, i can mess with this all day

http://translate.google.com/#auto/th/itchy%20pussy

very interesting!!!

[illy]

You are in Phuket where the talent pool is low!? Try Phitsanulok where I live and there isn't any talent pool! That's why I just do everything myself. I did take the bike to the much acclaimed Rama 9 in BKK for the 42K valve adjustment. I wanted to watch, but they wouldn't let me. I was kind of pissed when they finished, because one exhaust valve was exactly on the minimum spec, so they did not change the shim. I would have insisted that they go up one so I would have a little latitude over the next 42K. I would hate to burn it.

I would have done the valve adjustment myself, but being in Phitsanulok, I can't just run out and buy one shim. To be sure I had a shim for every possibility, I would have had to buy four complete sets (two exhaust and two intake for each cylingder). I can't remember what that would cost, but I think it was 3-4,000 baht, not cheap. Next time, I'll just check the clearances and then drive down to Nakhon Sawan (100km) and buy the shims I need at the kawa shop there.

They also did not want me to leave my bike overnight. How in the hell can they adjust the valves cold if I ride it in just before they start working??? I finally talked them into letting me leave it there.

I also told them DO NOT CHANGE THE OIL, but they did it anyway and charged me for Shell oil, which I never use. I needed a tire and wanted a Michelin Pilot Road. I had my wife talk to them and they said they had one in stock. Luckily, before they started, I told them I wanted to see the tire. It was a Dunlop Road Smart. Then they told me they don't sell Michelin. I just said no thanks. And some other things. None of them listen -- or just don't understand and dismiss you. I was quite miffed about going all the way to BKK and they wouldn't let me watch. I never let anybody do anything to my bike without watching every move. If you don't watch, they skip applying grease and locking agents where indicated and won't use a torque wrench on anything. They also bang around with hammers and screw drivers and strip screws. Well like I said, my warranty's out, so I do it all myself now.

makes you feel sorry for all the poor buggers that have bought ducatis and other 'maintenance sensitive" brands..i am sure there will be a lot of topics on the bike forum like this in the near future when all these new bikes become a little more high mileage and start needing specific services which the thais will not be able to do properly!

Edited June 27, 2013 by illy

[Ticketmaster]

I had a Beemer in the states and always took it to the shop. It was all pretty high tech stuff with special tools for everything and that was 9 years ago! ALL Beemer shops in the States have highly trained techs, to say nothing of the super support you get all over the country from the BMW owners network. Kind if spoils you rotten.

When I came here, I wanted another Beemer and actually looked at them. If the 2.5 times the price of the US model isn't a show stopper, the fact that there are only Beemer shops in BKK and CM (that I know of) was the final stopper. What the hell would I do if I was up in Nakhon Bumfuck and had a 500 baht electronic part fail? Leave my 1.5 million baht Beemer parked on the side of the road and fly to BKK to get the 500 baht part? Hire a truck to carry the bike home for me, then fly to BKK and get the 500 baht part? That's why I bought a Kawasaki -- first Jap bike I ever owned, and it's been good to me. If I am in Nakhon Bumfuck and something goes wrong, I have enough tools and parts with me to fix most things. It is a lot simpler than the Beemer.

I really don't know what these guys do. It's an interesting question.

[macknife]

I know a Thai guy who used to work for Kawasaki racing in Australia. His English is very good and he seems to know his stuff. I had a minor problem with my Ninja 250 that Kawa said they could do nothing about. This guy sorted it out in 20 minutes. I've seen him working on Verseys(so he knows about your bike) and he came highly recommended to me. The trouble is he is in Bangkok.

As I said, he speaks good English, so he may be able to tell you a solution. If interested PM me and I'll give you his number.

[illy]

well folks after exhausting all avenues it looks like it IS the ABS unit after all.

looks like there is a valve or something inside the ABS black box that has stuck or has failed and of course there are no servicable parts inside, only full replacement . for me 20000 to 25000 baht is about 3 weeks wages so its a big chuck of cash to save for.

all ER6N and 6F owners should be aware that if you have the same problem its an expensive fix and an awkward one too. the bike has to be pretty much taken to bits to do it due to the hard to get at postion of the ABS black box at least on the pre 2010 models like mine

thanks for all your help. i have learned a lot about this motorbike from a lot of "you guy's" suggestions.

i wish the bloody bike never had ABS now!!!...if you own a ER6N or ER6F you should be VERY AWARE of this problem!!!

[mania]

i wish the bloody bike never had ABS now!!!...if you own a ER6N or ER6F you should be VERY AWARE of this problem!!!

Disabling it not an option?

I am betting it would be a lot cheaper to go buy

some non abs calipers & just go from there

Edited July 1, 2013 by mania

[illy]

i wish the bloody bike never had ABS now!!!...if you own a ER6N or ER6F you should be VERY AWARE of this problem!!!

Disabling it not an option?

I am betting it would be a lot cheaper to go buy

some non abs calipers & just go from there

yes i can do that and probably will but you have to disable the rear AND front brake lines from the ABS and will eventually have to replace the ABS as it will be hard to sell it in future if/when i want to upgrade to a newer or different bike down the track

[mania]

i wish the bloody bike never had ABS now!!!...if you own a ER6N or ER6F you should be VERY AWARE of this problem!!!

Disabling it not an option?

I am betting it would be a lot cheaper to go buy

some non abs calipers & just go from there

yes i can do that and probably will but you have to disable the rear AND front brake lines from the ABS and will eventually have to replace the ABS as it will be hard to sell it in future if/when i want to upgrade to a newer or different bike down the track

Unless someone like me who hates ABS was the buyer

Yes for sure both calipers changed to non-abs, close off the pump,

The only thing I am not sure about would be whether it would have a check engine light fault

or if that is easily bypassed via fuse etc?

[wantan]

This is the big disadvantage of all these nice features nowadays. Sooner or later they might get broken. And then of course you have to replace the complete unit because its not repairable. What a nightmare.

No used unit to get in Thailand? There must be some used spare parts for the ninja somewhere???

[illy]

I am not fan of ABS either. I cant really say I ever felt it working too often anyway[the pedal 'kicks' when it is working] I think I will just have to remove the ABS fuse ...but looks like I will have to bite the bullet and fix the thing properly. I hope the Phuket kawa boys are capable of that......and that's another problem.. all these hi tech gizmo on standard bikes like ninja 650s [lets face they are not exactly a high end exotic bike] are going to be hard to fix in Thailand where the skill base is rather low!!!

if anyone is considering buying a new Kawasaki I hope ya'all reading this..it could happen to you too!

[Neilly]

...but looks like I will have to bite the bullet and fix the thing properly.

if anyone is considering buying a new Kawasaki I hope ya'all reading this..it could happen to you too!

I would get the part number and see if there's any on ebay...has to lots of wrecked 650's around

[loserlazer]

I am not fan of ABS either. I cant really say I ever felt it working too often anyway[the pedal 'kicks' when it is working] I think I will just have to remove the ABS fuse ...but looks like I will have to bite the bullet and fix the thing properly. I hope the Phuket kawa boys are capable of that......and that's another problem.. all these hi tech gizmo on standard bikes like ninja 650s [lets face they are not exactly a high end exotic bike] are going to be hard to fix in Thailand where the skill base is rather low!!!

if anyone is considering buying a new Kawasaki I hope ya'all reading this..it could happen to you too!

components of a machine/bike can get problems.

your case will not be preventing me to get abs on my new bike and i have abs on my current bike as well.

yours is just bad luck. just bc your abs had a problem, it does not mean abs is something bad!

[RubberSideDown]

I'm a proponent of ABS as well- it's not great on a racetrack or in the dirt, but on a typical Thai road it can be a (literal) lifesaver.

I've seen many posts (on other forums) by people who feel their accidents could have been prevented if they had had ABS- I've never seen someone attribute a get-off to its presence.

[wantan]

The problem is the money you have to pay for the ABS unit as spare part. Such expensive part shouldn't fail after just 4 years. And imagine the costs for repair in other countries. In western countries repair would cost much more. Unacceptable imo. A real nightmare for the few customers who get into such problem.

[wantan]

Sorry, double post removed.

Edited July 2, 2013 by wantan

[illy]

I think ABS is an excellent idea but there should a choice , especially after finding out how expensive it is. I have never really needed ABS nor had a bike with it before.

With this model in Thailand I think there was no choice, it came standard with ABS and for sure in Thailand esp Phuket it is great idea but a failure of the ABS when not expected can be even more dangerous that not having it all.

in Australia this replacement part would be 58000bht plus tax.. that is ridiculous. small mercies that in Thailand its 20000bht or so.

I will however get the bike fixed properly and NOT bypass the ABS system, just too risky when you look how many brake lines have to be re routed and closed off. just hope the phuket kawa boys can do it correctly, its not an easy fix.

[illy]

UPDATE:

hi to all you guys who tried to help with this topic and just for any concerned kawa ninja 650 owners ,

I DID FINALLY get the ABS fixed.

a friend of mine who is a 'tinkerer extraordinaire" managed to pull the ABS apart [without removing the spring etc] clean it all out and get the "servos" inside moving again and....hey presto.. its all working again..saved me 23000 bht [part only] and the bikes seems fine [tested rigorously but safely]with front and rear ABS systems working and the warning light out on the display.

can hardly believe it myself!!

illy

[dogpoo]

hi guys.

the brake lever is stuck "OFF" meaning i cant press it down. the ABS or brake warning lights are off.

i cant get the bike to bkk as i live and work in phuket and simply havent got enough time.

they replaced the small brake cylinder near the pedal itself.

there is no problem with the mechanical movemnet of or the returning of the rake pedal.

the problem stated with the brake pedal getting stuck but it would eventually free up and work as normal. that went on for a month or so. now no matter how hard i press the pedal wont move while connected to the brake system. when disconnected it with move so its not a brake lever problem its something in the system itself. i am not very mechanical but i can tell these guys at kawa phuket are out of their depth on anything but oil and filter changes

illy

That is a very worrying statement for anyone owning the ZR14 and the ninja1000, if you can't do work yourself you are at the mercy of these people, this is one of my big concerns owning a big bike here, I am looking to buy, reading things like this though make me think it is better to stick to something simple!., hope you get it all sorted!!

[illy]

hi guys.

the brake lever is stuck "OFF" meaning i cant press it down. the ABS or brake warning lights are off.

i cant get the bike to bkk as i live and work in phuket and simply havent got enough time.

they replaced the small brake cylinder near the pedal itself.

there is no problem with the mechanical movemnet of or the returning of the rake pedal.

the problem stated with the brake pedal getting stuck but it would eventually free up and work as normal. that went on for a month or so. now no matter how hard i press the pedal wont move while connected to the brake system. when disconnected it with move so its not a brake lever problem its something in the system itself. i am not very mechanical but i can tell these guys at kawa phuket are out of their depth on anything but oil and filter changes

illy

That is a very worrying statement for anyone owning the ZR14 and the ninja1000, if you can't do work yourself you are at the mercy of these people, this is one of my big concerns owning a big bike here, I am looking to buy, reading things like this though make me think it is better to stick to something simple!., hope you get it all sorted!!

yes its sorted now but no thanks to local kawa shop who didn't even try to fix it and had no idea how to anyway.

it is a worry having anything of hi tech componentry in this country, ...always makes me worry about glorified scooter mechanics [possibly] working in aviation!!