Severance Pay for Teachers

[paulfr]

I need to bring this issue to a wider audience for opinions and experiences.

Does anyone know a teacher who left a private school and then received

severance pay ....... in recent years ?

Apparently there is a Private School Act in Labor Law that excludes teachers.

I am wondering if that has held up in Labor Court.

Thanks

[PoorSucker]

Moved to Teaching in Thailand Forum

[paulfr]

Whoever moved this to the Teacher forum may not have understood the spirit of the post

I already inquired in the Teacher Forum and I need a wider

audience to comment on it.

Surly there are exceptions to rules

The Forum is to help its readers and posters alike

Please return this to the Jobs Forum where it is perfectly appropriate.

Thank you

[PoorSucker]

Moved back on request.

[paulfr]

Thank you for returning the post to the more general forum.

Your understanding is much appreicated

[Soutpeel]

I used to be looking at at an English languge version of the labour act a lot a few years ago, and must confess dont ever remember seeing a clause which excluded teachers from severance....are you sure your not being spun a line by the school...best place to ask is the DOL, same office were you got your WP from...they will tell you in about 30 seconds....but I am pretty sure teachers are not excluded a private school is in essense a business and is being run as a business, therefore the same rules should apply IMHO

Edited June 28, 2013 by Soutpeel

[garyj1967]

The private school act, is just that an act and not above the labour law, if you take this to the labour court you will win. The labour law covers all employees and can not exempt a particular group any more. I hope this helps.

[BrianCR]

In answer to your question I have received severance pay twice and from two separate schools! First time was after having a big row with the dickhe*d who ran the department during which, in temper, he told me I was sacked. Well, first I had received no written (or verbal) warnings over anything and secondly he forgot in his wisdom to put it in writing to me. I informed the school directors that they were in breach of labour law and was rewarded (although they didn't want to reward me) with three months salary.

Second time was after working at the same school for 4.5 years I went to sign a new contract only to be informed (very politely)that as I was (then) 67 years old the school would not be able to give me a new contract. I consulted labour laws and discovered that age is not a reason for dismissal and that they couldn't claim redundancy as under the same law they couldn't fill the position with anyone else. I prepared my case then threatened to take them to a labour tribunal - they backed down before that happened and i got 6 months salary off them.

Many westerners are simply not aware that if you are working legally you are entitled to the same labour protection as Thai people. Incidentally one year contracts do not mean that legally you have been employed by that school for one year as the contracts in the eyes of the labour laws, accrue and so you can claim for the full period that you have been employed. Anyone want further advice on an individual problem let me know

Brian

[paulfr]

In answer to your question I have received severance pay twice and from two separate schools! First time was after having a big row with the dickhe*d who ran the department during which, in temper, he told me I was sacked. Well, first I had received no written (or verbal) warnings over anything and secondly he forgot in his wisdom to put it in writing to me. I informed the school directors that they were in breach of labour law and was rewarded (although they didn't want to reward me) with three months salary.

Second time was after working at the same school for 4.5 years I went to sign a new contract only to be informed (very politely)that as I was (then) 67 years old the school would not be able to give me a new contract. I consulted labour laws and discovered that age is not a reason for dismissal and that they couldn't claim redundancy as under the same law they couldn't fill the position with anyone else. I prepared my case then threatened to take them to a labour tribunal - they backed down before that happened and i got 6 months salary off them.

Many westerners are simply not aware that if you are working legally you are entitled to the same labour protection as Thai people. Incidentally one year contracts do not mean that legally you have been employed by that school for one year as the contracts in the eyes of the labour laws, accrue and so you can claim for the full period that you have been employed. Anyone want further advice on an individual problem let me know

Brian

================================

Brian

Thanks for your generous reply

Did you collect these severance payments within the last 5 - 6 years ?

The Private School Act is only about 5 yrs old.

It is what exempts private schools from severance and many other obligations of Thai Labor Law.

Prior to that, a teacher at a private school was covered.

Edited June 28, 2013 by PoorSucker
fixed quotes

[BrianCR]

Thanks for your generous reply

Did you collect these severance payments within the last 5 - 6 years ?

The Private School Act is only about 5 yrs old.

It is what exempts private schools from severance and many other obligations of Thai Labor Law.

Prior to that, a teacher at a private school was covered.

Hi Paul

Forget the private school stuff the labour laws apply to both private and Government. The 3 month payment was from a private school about 5 and a half years ago and the 6 month payment was from a Government school about 10 months ago - I have now really retired from teaching lol

Edited June 28, 2013 by PoorSucker
fixed quote

[culicine]

Brian, I know of a number of foreign teachers from my private school that did not have their contract renewed for whatever reason. The line the labour court gave them varied from either 'your a foreigner, it doesn't apply to you', you it's a private school, it doesn't apply, etc. The only foreigner that I know to get severance - can't recall exactly, maybe 4 years ago, was fired mid contract without written warnings and justification. He got 7 months if I recall correctly. Mind you, he has Thai citizenship, but employed as a foreign teacher. So what's the next course of action if the initial meeting at the labour court/office goes badly. Get a lawyer? From what I gather, most foreign teachers don't push hard enough, so we have few examples of successful court wins by them.

[Soutpeel]

In answer to your question I have received severance pay twice and from two separate schools! First time was after having a big row with the dickhe*d who ran the department during which, in temper, he told me I was sacked. Well, first I had received no written (or verbal) warnings over anything and secondly he forgot in his wisdom to put it in writing to me. I informed the school directors that they were in breach of labour law and was rewarded (although they didn't want to reward me) with three months salary.

Second time was after working at the same school for 4.5 years I went to sign a new contract only to be informed (very politely)that as I was (then) 67 years old the school would not be able to give me a new contract. I consulted labour laws and discovered that age is not a reason for dismissal and that they couldn't claim redundancy as under the same law they couldn't fill the position with anyone else. I prepared my case then threatened to take them to a labour tribunal - they backed down before that happened and i got 6 months salary off them.

Many westerners are simply not aware that if you are working legally you are entitled to the same labour protection as Thai people. Incidentally one year contracts do not mean that legally you have been employed by that school for one year as the contracts in the eyes of the labour laws, accrue and so you can claim for the full period that you have been employed. Anyone want further advice on an individual problem let me know

Brian

================================

Brian

Thanks for your generous reply

Did you collect these severance payments within the last 5 - 6 years ?

The Private School Act is only about 5 yrs old.

It is what exempts private schools from severance and many other obligations of Thai Labor Law.

Prior to that, a teacher at a private school was covered.

If what you say is true is there any reference to this in the Thai labour act, as the labour law would take precidence over the "private school act" anyway....

to me on face value what your stating there doesnt make sense....if this act related to goverment schools, I could see some logic to it..but a private school is operated as a "business"...therefore the labour act rules stand and under those rules a person would be entitled to severance under the prescribed conditions

[Soutpeel]

So what's the next course of action if the initial meeting at the labour court/office goes badly. Get a lawyer? From what I gather, most foreign teachers don't push hard enough, so we have few examples of successful court wins by them.

The DOL are very employee pro, and they will tell you very quickly if you have a case or not.

I suspect a lot of foreign teachers dont push hard enough simply because most are working illegally ie without WP and would think they are scared of getting involved with goverment departments for obvious reasons

by all means if you dont get satisifaction from the DOL, you can persue this with a lawyer, however I would suspect a lawyer will tell you, if the DOL dont think you have a case, then its going to be a hard push in a labour court get your case through...

[BrianCR]

See if I can add a few more interesting points:

Culicine - Your information is incorrect on a few points firstly your friend did not get 7 months salary as six is the maximum. All the comments regarding a labour court making statements such as you state are complete dribble - most cases are settled either by a threat of action at school level (schools don't want to lose face) but to do this you will need to be friendly yet, stern with them so, making them believe that you intend to carry out your plan of taking them to the labour department

The labour department is your second step where you will meet with a tribunal officer and with whom you will present your case (as Soutpeel said) the DOL are very employee pro and are paid to protect you, not the school or company!

Step 3: After looking at your evidence the tribunal officer will tell you if he/she believes that you have a case (to make a case is fairly easy) then, he/she will telephone your employer and invite them to either make the payment (specified by the labour department) to you OR, if they don't they must attend the labour department on a date specified. Should they choose to not pay and attend you will need to be present and the officer will negotiate with the employer on your behalf. Should the school make a lower offer of payment the officer will ask you if you wish to accept if, your answer is no the meeting will end and the labour department will inform the school of a date in which to attend a formal (usually with 3 judges) labour court. If your answer is yes, you get paid and the case is closed.

If, after attending the labour department they refuse to handle your case this will be for one of two reasons - 1) you don't have a case and 2) because the officer is too lazy. If you really feel you do have a case go to a lawyer and they will speak with the labour department on your behalf. The labour department will explain why you don't have a case or after speaking with your lawyer will suddenly stop feeling lazy.

If after going through all of this the labour department still refuses to handle your case ONLY A FOOL will bother to take a private action in a court - you will NOT win without the backing of the labour department and it will cost YOU money.

If you now need to know what makes a case for wrongful dismissal click like to this and later i will start writing again - now I'm going for a cup of coffee

[BrianCR]

In answer to your question I have received severance pay twice and from two separate schools! First time was after having a big row with the dickhe*d who ran the department during which, in temper, he told me I was sacked. Well, first I had received no written (or verbal) warnings over anything and secondly he forgot in his wisdom to put it in writing to me. I informed the school directors that they were in breach of labour law and was rewarded (although they didn't want to reward me) with three months salary.

Second time was after working at the same school for 4.5 years I went to sign a new contract only to be informed (very politely)that as I was (then) 67 years old the school would not be able to give me a new contract. I consulted labour laws and discovered that age is not a reason for dismissal and that they couldn't claim redundancy as under the same law they couldn't fill the position with anyone else. I prepared my case then threatened to take them to a labour tribunal - they backed down before that happened and i got 6 months salary off them.

Many westerners are simply not aware that if you are working legally you are entitled to the same labour protection as Thai people. Incidentally one year contracts do not mean that legally you have been employed by that school for one year as the contracts in the eyes of the labour laws, accrue and so you can claim for the full period that you have been employed. Anyone want further advice on an individual problem let me know

Brian

================================

Brian

Thanks for your generous reply

Did you collect these severance payments within the last 5 - 6 years ?

The Private School Act is only about 5 yrs old.

It is what exempts private schools from severance and many other obligations of Thai Labor Law.

Prior to that, a teacher at a private school was covered.

If what you say is true is there any reference to this in the Thai labour act, as the labour law would take precidence over the "private school act" anyway....

to me on face value what your stating there doesnt make sense....if this act related to goverment schools, I could see some logic to it..but a private school is operated as a "business"...therefore the labour act rules stand and under those rules a person would be entitled to severance under the prescribed conditions

Labour laws do not apply to the business of making money (i.e business or schools or private schools). Labour law refers to the scope that an employee needs to extend to the employer and the scope the employer needs to extend to an employee. The type of employment (with a few exceptions) make no difference in the manner in which both employee and employer need act toward each other

[BrianCR]

Below, in both Thai and English are the rules which come under the Labour Protection Act 1998 (section 119). Anything outside of this scope is a case for wrongful dismissal and remember, even if you were dismissed for a reason below, some of these reasons need to be proceeded by 1) a verbal warning, followed by 2) a written warning (a written warning is valid for a period of 6 months after which and subject to the employee not breaking the same rule, the warning is not valid)

A boss need not pay compensation to an employee whose employment is terminated in any of the following cases:

• (1)Dishonesty in carrying out duties or deliberate commission of a crime against the boss.

• (2)Intentionally causing the boss to suffer damage.

• (3)Negligence, causing the boss to suffer serious damage.

• (4)Violation of the work rules and regulations or the boss' lawful and legitimate regulations or orders, where the boss had already issued a written warning, except that in serious cases the boss need not issue such a warning. A letter of warning shall be enforceable for not more than one year calculated from the date on which the employee committed the offence.

• (5)Abandonment of post for three consecutive working days, regardless of whether there was a holiday in between or not, for no appropriate reason.

• (6) Imprisonment under a final judgement ordering imprisonment, unless the sentence was for an offence which was committed out of negligence or a petty offence.

มาตรา 119 นายจ้างไม่ต้องจ่ายค่าชดเชยให้แก่ลูกจ้าง ซึ่งเลิกจ้างในกรณีหนึ่งกรณีใดดังต่อไปนี้

(1) ทุจริตต่อหน้าที่หรือกระทำความผิดอาญาโดยเจตนา แก่นายจ้าง

(2) จงใจทำให้นายจ้างได้รับความเสียหาย

(3) ประมาทเลินเล่อเป็นเหตุให้นายจ้างได้รับความเสียหาย อย่างร้ายแรง

(4) ฝ่าฝืนข้อบังคับเกี่ยวกับการทำงานหรือระเบียบหรือคำสั่ง ของนายจ้างอันชอบด้วยกฎหมายและเป็นธรรม และนายจ้างได้ ตักเตือนเป็นหนังสือแล้ว เว้นแต่กรณีที่ร้ายแรงนายจ้างไม่จำเป็น ต้องตักเตือน

หนังสือเตือนให้มีผลบังคับได้ไม่เกินหนึ่งปีนับแต่วันที่ลูกจ้างได้ กระทำผิด

(5) ละทิ้งหน้าที่เป็นเวลาสามวันทำงานติดต่อกันไม่ว่าจะมีวัน หยุดคั่นหรือไม่ก็ตามโดยไม่มีเหตุอันสมควร

(6) ได้รับโทษจำคุกตามคำพิพากษาถึงที่สุดให้จำคุก เว้นแต่ เป็นโทษสำหรับความผิดที่ได้กระทำโดยประมาทหรือความผิดลหุ โทษ

Hope all this helps you and good luck with your case

[culicine]

See if I can add a few more interesting points:

Culicine - Your information is incorrect on a few points firstly your friend did not get 7 months salary as six is the maximum. All the comments regarding a labour court making statements such as you state are complete dribble - most cases are settled either by a threat of action at school level (schools don't want to lose face) but to do this you will need to be friendly yet, stern with them so, making them believe that you intend to carry out your plan of taking them to the labour department

The labour department is your second step where you will meet with a tribunal officer and with whom you will present your case (as Soutpeel said) the DOL are very employee pro and are paid to protect you, not the school or company!

Step 3: After looking at your evidence the tribunal officer will tell you if he/she believes that you have a case (to make a case is fairly easy) then, he/she will telephone your employer and invite them to either make the payment (specified by the labour department) to you OR, if they don't they must attend the labour department on a date specified. Should they choose to not pay and attend you will need to be present and the officer will negotiate with the employer on your behalf. Should the school make a lower offer of payment the officer will ask you if you wish to accept if, your answer is no the meeting will end and the labour department will inform the school of a date in which to attend a formal (usually with 3 judges) labour court. If your answer is yes, you get paid and the case is closed.

If, after attending the labour department they refuse to handle your case this will be for one of two reasons - 1) you don't have a case and 2) because the officer is too lazy. If you really feel you do have a case go to a lawyer and they will speak with the labour department on your behalf. The labour department will explain why you don't have a case or after speaking with your lawyer will suddenly stop feeling lazy.

If after going through all of this the labour department still refuses to handle your case ONLY A FOOL will bother to take a private action in a court - you will NOT win without the backing of the labour department and it will cost YOU money.

If you now need to know what makes a case for wrongful dismissal click like to this and later i will start writing again - now I'm going for a cup of coffee

sorry but 10 years service = 300 days severance pay:)