Yangon in 15 years

[Rain dancer]

Hi all,

In 15 Years, how do you foresight Yangon developing? Like wich city in Asia ?

Or in other words, if you had to compare, given your actual knowledge.

You think it can become like Bangkok ? Or more like Dhaka ? Or maybe Phnom Penh ?

[LawrenceChee]

I have great hopes for it if its planned right and done right

They have enough natural resources there to generate a decent city to live in

[SeaVisionBurma]

Yangon really needs to have an urgent look at a major transport infrastructure before it gets too far down the track.

Seeing the changes in the last 15 years (I arrived there in 1999) - the city has already (and mostly recently) become clogged with vehicle traffic, making it a chore to drive anywhere.

There are buses, but these are aging and full.

A major urban light rail and rail system is what Yangon needs.

If this happens, then in 15 years time it can probably develop into a decent modern Asian city.

As for a city to compare it to in 15 years time, that is difficult. Something like KL would be good - decent enough transport infrastructure, yet retaining its old world charm and colonial buildings.

[gregk0543]

I have coming here to Yangon since 1980 so it has already changed a lot.

I live here at present for the last 3 years.

The simple truth is that if the govt. had not wasted all the money and time on building Nay Pyi Daw in the first place they could have invested that effort into Yangon and it would be much better than it is and people might have liked them.

The present state of Yangon is solely the outcome of bad governance in the past.

In the last 2 years though heaps has improved and change is rapid. There will be a lot more pain ahead while the system adjusts.

They have done a lot to improve the roads here in the last 2 years. Huge improvement on that front.

They desperately need an MRT system in the pipeline. It would make the place work for the load it will bear in the future.

The buses are also in need of huge revamp.

There is no alternative transport except cars.

The circular train line is quite a joke too.

I hope that in 15 years they will have re-introduced motorcycles.

Next is electricity. Huge efforts needed and it is underway. I actually would put this first.

As the country is being integrated back into the world system is will be like digging it out of a big hole.

Education is next on my list.

Education of people to be able to actually have skills.

Education of people to follow road rules.

Education of bureacracy to make systems that work.

The whole country is virtually paper based. This will change with electricity.

Health sector too is going to get better.

Oh and your mobile phone and internet would work too.

So on all these fronts the wheels have started to turn and in 15 years that should have huge effect.

Each factor mentioned above will make each of the others easier and have a synergy.

Having watched the place slide backwards into this hole for 30 years I am glad to see it coming out of it.

So I think in 15 years it will be much better for the people living here than it is now.

I would assume also that agriculture in the country will improve and that will improve the quality of produce available.

The steps taken now will see the development of industry as well.

Or it could turn into a horrible mess like in some towns in India.

Or it could turn into a Singapore type port as a junction point and trade terminal for India, China, and Thailand.

But all this assumes the worlds oceans havent been decimated.

The weather stays the same and the fossil fuels keep flowing.

Lets see what happens and play a little golf as we watch.

[uptheos]

When do you think they will overturn Ne Win's total ban on motorcycles in Yangon?

Then the traffic system will be interesting, there will be generations of people who have never even thought about road rules or ever ridden a motorbike, they've always had to take the bus, taxi or walk if they couldn't get a ride.

Edited July 9, 2013 by uptheos

[gregk0543]

When do you think they will overturn Ne Win's total ban on motorcycles in Yangon?

Then the traffic system will be interesting, there will be generations of people who have never even thought about road rules or ever ridden a motorbike, they've always had to take the bus, taxi or walk if they couldn't get a ride.

One thing that was taught by example here over the years is that "rules apply to other people."

With road rules it is the same. License rules the same. etc. Part of this is because the bureaucracy is so insanely slow to do anything that your only option to function is to break the rules.

With this in mind you must remember that the people who make the rules have no incentive to change the motorcycle rules in Yangon because it would put more obstacles in their cars way as they drive around. So they want to keep the roads to themselves basically. So until one of them or his kids want them back it wont happen. In short democracy or not, dont hold your breath on this one because it involves prejudice. Of course the police ride unregistered motorcycles around, and the electricity dept, and it is rumoured exemptions will be made for couriers. But never would such freedom be given to the people. They are not ready for that yet. Unless of course they live in Mandalay where a car is a rarity.

The figures I looked at recently showed from memory: 3.6 million reg. vehicles in Myanmar. 3.1 million are motorcycles .5 are others. So why Yangon is exempt is a very good question? But I am the only one asking it.

[uptheos]

When do you think they will overturn Ne Win's total ban on motorcycles in Yangon?

Then the traffic system will be interesting, there will be generations of people who have never even thought about road rules or ever ridden a motorbike, they've always had to take the bus, taxi or walk if they couldn't get a ride.

One thing that was taught by example here over the years is that "rules apply to other people."

With road rules it is the same. License rules the same. etc. Part of this is because the bureaucracy is so insanely slow to do anything that your only option to function is to break the rules.

With this in mind you must remember that the people who make the rules have no incentive to change the motorcycle rules in Yangon because it would put more obstacles in their cars way as they drive around. So they want to keep the roads to themselves basically. So until one of them or his kids want them back it wont happen. In short democracy or not, dont hold your breath on this one because it involves prejudice. Of course the police ride unregistered motorcycles around, and the electricity dept, and it is rumoured exemptions will be made for couriers. But never would such freedom be given to the people. They are not ready for that yet. Unless of course they live in Mandalay where a car is a rarity.

The figures I looked at recently showed from memory: 3.6 million reg. vehicles in Myanmar. 3.1 million are motorcycles .5 are others. So why Yangon is exempt is a very good question? But I am the only one asking it.

Isn't it because one of Ne Win's cars had an incident with a motorbike in Yangon, so he banned all motorbikes in that city overnight in anger. This could be inaccurate, it's what I was told by some Burmese friends.

[SeaVisionBurma]

My understanding (I was in Yangon when the bikes were banned) is that it was due to Ne Win's grandsons running amok with their gang 'the Scorpions'

They were tearing around on motorbikes, and after some incidents of violence the regime decided to ban bikes (and yes it was virtually overnight)

[uptheos]

My understanding (I was in Yangon when the bikes were banned) is that it was due to Ne Win's grandsons running amok with their gang 'the Scorpions'

They were tearing around on motorbikes, and after some incidents of violence the regime decided to ban bikes (and yes it was virtually overnight)

What year was that SVB?

[SeaVisionBurma]

My understanding (I was in Yangon when the bikes were banned) is that it was due to Ne Win's grandsons running amok with their gang 'the Scorpions'

They were tearing around on motorbikes, and after some incidents of violence the regime decided to ban bikes (and yes it was virtually overnight)

What year was that SVB?

1999. I'll check up on that, I may be able to find out the month (my memory on those shenanigans is pretty clear, just not the exact date

The reason it rings so clear is that the company I worked for at the time had the boys' father as our local partner (Ne Win's grandson). Very interesting chap.

[SeaVisionBurma]

This topic might have some relevance here - Yangon - A City Worth Saving

[phazey]

My understanding (I was in Yangon when the bikes were banned) is that it was due to Ne Win's grandsons running amok with their gang 'the Scorpions'

They were tearing around on motorbikes, and after some incidents of violence the regime decided to ban bikes (and yes it was virtually overnight)

What year was that SVB?

1999. I'll check up on that, I may be able to find out the month (my memory on those shenanigans is pretty clear, just not the exact date

The reason it rings so clear is that the company I worked for at the time had the boys' father as our local partner (Ne Win's grandson). Very interesting chap.

It was my understanding there was an attempted assassination of some high up official - the culprits got away on motorcycles. May sound far fetched, but then again, why paint trees white......

[DagonKhan]

My understanding (I was in Yangon when the bikes were banned) is that it was due to Ne Win's grandsons running amok with their gang 'the Scorpions'

They were tearing around on motorbikes, and after some incidents of violence the regime decided to ban bikes (and yes it was virtually overnight)

What year was that SVB?

1999. I'll check up on that, I may be able to find out the month (my memory on those shenanigans is pretty clear, just not the exact date

The reason it rings so clear is that the company I worked for at the time had the boys' father as our local partner (Ne Win's grandson). Very interesting chap.

It was my understanding there was an attempted assassination of some high up official - the culprits got away on motorcycles. May sound far fetched, but then again, why paint trees white......

As I recall the official was Maung Aye. Not too sure who the guys were on the motorcycles were, whether they were Scorpions or not, but one of them was said to have made a gun gesture with his hands. That was enough for Maung Aye to realize how vulnerable he was.

Used to see some lovely BSA's and Nortons on the road before that.

[phazey]

Remember the garage thats a bit out of town? You could get a fully restored BSA crated and on a boat for next to nothing. (Our favourite Kiwi may still remember where it is).

I bought a BSA from Cliff - got stolen

[SeaVisionBurma]

Troll post removed

Sent from my i-mobile IQ 1 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[sscsamui]

Saigon with more corruption

[sabai-dee-man]

I think Paul Hardcastle just entered the room!

[Just1Voice]

A while back I read somewhere - sorry, can't remember exactly - that the government there pretty much admitted they don't have the infrastructure they need for the tourism industry, which as nearly doubled since the country became "democratic". They also admitted they didn't have the trained and qualified engineers to build what is needed, so they contracted with a Dutch firm to come in, study the situation, and then help them develope hotels, restaurants, streets and a good transportation system. Something Thailand would never consider as their all important "face" will never allow them to admit they need help from anyone, to do anything. Something I else I heard, but don't have verification to yet, is that they also hired a company from India to build two major highways, north to south, for the entire length of the country.

Now, here's something I've thought about, but will have to wait and see if I'm correct.

One third of the total land masss of Myanmar is situated on ocean front with the Adaman Sea and Bay of Benal. This is basically "virgin territory" that has never been developed. if they do it right, and keep out the corruption, they could turn this area into a virtual gold mine for tourism that would pretty much completely destroy Thailand's tourism in places such as Phukett and Pattaya.

Personally, I would love to see it happen. Maybe that is what it would take for Thailand to get their heads out of their collective backsides and actually clean those places up. But in reality, they'll find someone elso to blame it on.

[GeorgeO]

I have coming here to Yangon since 1980 so it has already changed a lot.

I live here at present for the last 3 years.

The simple truth is that if the govt. had not wasted all the money and time on building Nay Pyi Daw in the first place they could have invested that effort into Yangon and it would be much better than it is and people might have liked them.

The present state of Yangon is solely the outcome of bad governance in the past.

In the last 2 years though heaps has improved and change is rapid. There will be a lot more pain ahead while the system adjusts.

They have done a lot to improve the roads here in the last 2 years. Huge improvement on that front.

They desperately need an MRT system in the pipeline. It would make the place work for the load it will bear in the future.

The buses are also in need of huge revamp.

There is no alternative transport except cars.

The circular train line is quite a joke too.

I hope that in 15 years they will have re-introduced motorcycles.

Next is electricity. Huge efforts needed and it is underway. I actually would put this first.

As the country is being integrated back into the world system is will be like digging it out of a big hole.

Education is next on my list.

Education of people to be able to actually have skills.

Education of people to follow road rules.

Education of bureacracy to make systems that work.

The whole country is virtually paper based. This will change with electricity.

Health sector too is going to get better.

Oh and your mobile phone and internet would work too.

So on all these fronts the wheels have started to turn and in 15 years that should have huge effect.

Each factor mentioned above will make each of the others easier and have a synergy.

Having watched the place slide backwards into this hole for 30 years I am glad to see it coming out of it.

So I think in 15 years it will be much better for the people living here than it is now.

I would assume also that agriculture in the country will improve and that will improve the quality of produce available.

The steps taken now will see the development of industry as well.

Or it could turn into a horrible mess like in some towns in India.

Or it could turn into a Singapore type port as a junction point and trade terminal for India, China, and Thailand.

But all this assumes the worlds oceans havent been decimated.

The weather stays the same and the fossil fuels keep flowing.

Lets see what happens and play a little golf as we watch.

Take a close look at the effects that the hordes of motorcycles have in places like Taipei and Bangkok, and perhaps you might wish to reconsider their re-introduction into Yangon.

[stickylies]

me thinks it will look like a smaller version of mumbai.

[bigbamboo]

If they look at Bangkok and study it's development carefully they will be half way there.

Then they just need to do the exact opposite.

[hellodolly]

Yangon really needs to have an urgent look at a major transport infrastructure before it gets too far down the track.

Seeing the changes in the last 15 years (I arrived there in 1999) - the city has already (and mostly recently) become clogged with vehicle traffic, making it a chore to drive anywhere.

There are buses, but these are aging and full.

A major urban light rail and rail system is what Yangon needs.

If this happens, then in 15 years time it can probably develop into a decent modern Asian city.

As for a city to compare it to in 15 years time, that is difficult. Something like KL would be good - decent enough transport infrastructure, yet retaining its old world charm and colonial buildings.

The question I would ask is there room. Can the existing infrastructure be widened enough.

Yes sky trains and subways will take the strain off of certain areas but only if the population stays the same.

Look at Bangkok Sukumvit ( The tourist street I can't spell it) they have a sky train and a subway and yet look at the traffic

Do they have the room to spread out in an orderly fashion that would allow for buses to make stops with out blocking traffic cars to park with out blocking traffic?

Will they designate an adequate amount of area to parking in the business district?

I have never been there but I have been to Bangkok and these were and are things that were and are not possible with the present infrastructure. Even here in Chiang Mai we have congestion problems with no solutions for the long run.

To solve all these problems you will need room if Yangon is like other cities that will require the demolition of buildings.

It has been a while since I was in Seattle but they had some congestion in the down town core not a lot. They had marked off a large portion of it and made all bus rides inside it free. Parking was not cheap but once you were parked you had a lot of city you could see for free thus taking a lot of vehicles of the roads in that area.

I hope to make the trip to Yangon soon. so far all I have seen of the country was a trip from Mai Sai Thailand to Monglar on the Chinese border. Beautiful country. I wish I had been feeling better in Monglar. What I saw of it was nice.

[hellodolly]

A while back I read somewhere - sorry, can't remember exactly - that the government there pretty much admitted they don't have the infrastructure they need for the tourism industry, which as nearly doubled since the country became "democratic". They also admitted they didn't have the trained and qualified engineers to build what is needed, so they contracted with a Dutch firm to come in, study the situation, and then help them develope hotels, restaurants, streets and a good transportation system. Something Thailand would never consider as their all important "face" will never allow them to admit they need help from anyone, to do anything. Something I else I heard, but don't have verification to yet, is that they also hired a company from India to build two major highways, north to south, for the entire length of the country.

Now, here's something I've thought about, but will have to wait and see if I'm correct.

One third of the total land masss of Myanmar is situated on ocean front with the Adaman Sea and Bay of Benal. This is basically "virgin territory" that has never been developed. if they do it right, and keep out the corruption, they could turn this area into a virtual gold mine for tourism that would pretty much completely destroy Thailand's tourism in places such as Phukett and Pattaya.

Personally, I would love to see it happen. Maybe that is what it would take for Thailand to get their heads out of their collective backsides and actually clean those places up. But in reality, they'll find someone elso to blame it on.

I agree with you Burma has the chance to make Thailand's sea resorts look two star and be cheaper.

How ever Corruption is far and away more rampant in Myanmar than Thailand so I don't think it is going to happen. I am sure the Government would prefer to keep the tourists in the main centers where there money would funnel into many pockets rather than just a few.

There are of course a lot of wealthy people in the world who are not interested in tourism just want to sit on a beach while they stay at a 5+ star resort and see nothing of the country. All their money going into probably a foreign owners pockets after his customary envelopes to certain officials.

[lee b]

May look like lumphun in 15 years

[Mudcrab]

A while back I read somewhere - sorry, can't remember exactly - that the government there pretty much admitted they don't have the infrastructure they need for the tourism industry, which as nearly doubled since the country became "democratic". They also admitted they didn't have the trained and qualified engineers to build what is needed, so they contracted with a Dutch firm to come in, study the situation, and then help them develope hotels, restaurants, streets and a good transportation system. Something Thailand would never consider as their all important "face" will never allow them to admit they need help from anyone, to do anything. Something I else I heard, but don't have verification to yet, is that they also hired a company from India to build two major highways, north to south, for the entire length of the country.

Now, here's something I've thought about, but will have to wait and see if I'm correct.

One third of the total land masss of Myanmar is situated on ocean front with the Adaman Sea and Bay of Benal. This is basically "virgin territory" that has never been developed. if they do it right, and keep out the corruption, they could turn this area into a virtual gold mine for tourism that would pretty much completely destroy Thailand's tourism in places such as Phukett and Pattaya.

Personally, I would love to see it happen. Maybe that is what it would take for Thailand to get their heads out of their collective backsides and actually clean those places up. But in reality, they'll find someone elso to blame it on.

I agree with you Burma has the chance to make Thailand's sea resorts look two star and be cheaper.

How ever Corruption is far and away more rampant in Myanmar than Thailand so I don't think it is going to happen. I am sure the Government would prefer to keep the tourists in the main centers where there money would funnel into many pockets rather than just a few.

There are of course a lot of wealthy people in the world who are not interested in tourism just want to sit on a beach while they stay at a 5+ star resort and see nothing of the country. All their money going into probably a foreign owners pockets after his customary envelopes to certain officials.

Will they designate an adequate amount of area to parking in the business district?

I have never been there but I have been to Bangkok and these were and are things that were and are not possible with the present infrastructure. Even here in Chiang Mai we have congestion problems with no solutions for the long run.

Interesting observation for someone who has never been there.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Mudcrab

[hellodolly]

A while back I read somewhere - sorry, can't remember exactly - that the government there pretty much admitted they don't have the infrastructure they need for the tourism industry, which as nearly doubled since the country became "democratic". They also admitted they didn't have the trained and qualified engineers to build what is needed, so they contracted with a Dutch firm to come in, study the situation, and then help them develope hotels, restaurants, streets and a good transportation system. Something Thailand would never consider as their all important "face" will never allow them to admit they need help from anyone, to do anything. Something I else I heard, but don't have verification to yet, is that they also hired a company from India to build two major highways, north to south, for the entire length of the country.

Now, here's something I've thought about, but will have to wait and see if I'm correct.

One third of the total land masss of Myanmar is situated on ocean front with the Adaman Sea and Bay of Benal. This is basically "virgin territory" that has never been developed. if they do it right, and keep out the corruption, they could turn this area into a virtual gold mine for tourism that would pretty much completely destroy Thailand's tourism in places such as Phukett and Pattaya.

Personally, I would love to see it happen. Maybe that is what it would take for Thailand to get their heads out of their collective backsides and actually clean those places up. But in reality, they'll find someone elso to blame it on.

I agree with you Burma has the chance to make Thailand's sea resorts look two star and be cheaper.

How ever Corruption is far and away more rampant in Myanmar than Thailand so I don't think it is going to happen. I am sure the Government would prefer to keep the tourists in the main centers where there money would funnel into many pockets rather than just a few.

There are of course a lot of wealthy people in the world who are not interested in tourism just want to sit on a beach while they stay at a 5+ star resort and see nothing of the country. All their money going into probably a foreign owners pockets after his customary envelopes to certain officials.

Will they designate an adequate amount of area to parking in the business district?

I have never been there but I have been to Bangkok and these were and are things that were and are not possible with the present infrastructure. Even here in Chiang Mai we have congestion problems with no solutions for the long run.

Interesting observation for someone who has never been there.

Any particular reason for an evasive answer.

Have you been to any big and old city in as third nation a country as Myanmar?

Like I say even here in Thailand we have the problem.

Proper infrastructure takes up a lot of area. When these cities were originated it was not taken into consideration that the population might grow by a factor of hundreds perhaps thousands.

In Bangkok they have a subway and a sky train on Skhukomvit (sorry about the spelling) and look at the traffic they still have there.

[jackr]

Yangon in 15 years

Phnom Penh 15 years ago.

But wouldn't it be great if the place comes good and eventually overtakes Muang Thai...

[boomerangutang]

How about a city with parks throughout. They do that in some cities in the Pacific NW of the US. They even have lagoon type regions where effluent is dealt with naturally, without chemi, and there are healthy flora and wildlife and migrating birds, turtles, etc. NYC has a giant park in its center. London has large Hyde Park. Even in Wash. DC, where I resided until age 22, has Rock Creek Park which winds through most of the city. Unfortunately, Asians don't care about parks in cities. That's a frivolous notion to them. Better to pack as many buildings in as possible. Bangkok is a prime example. I guesstimate it's got about 10 sq.cm of park per resident. Chiang Mai, even less.

[gregk0543]

Just heard a rumour that motorbikes will be allowed from October 2014.

The logic was that it would offer relief of pressure off public transport. This means buses.

It would definitely be a huge benefit for a large segment of workers.