Democrat Party Rebuilds Strength

[sushiman]

AFP = Agence France-Presse (French press agency)

Follow the link for AFP

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Thailands political solutions?:

Life is short

so solve it in the courts

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[jdinasia]

now I understand!

[Plus]

But in boycotting the snap poll ... the opposition parties triggered a constitutional mess that now threatens the very democracy they said they were fighting to preserve.

Wasn't it Thaksin himself who gave up his comfortable majority and called elections no one wanted? Why complaining if no one consequently played along?

When I left my country I watched every bit of news about it on CNN and BBC, and I just couldn't recognise it, and it was much much worse on AFP - they just sided with the right on all issues. BBC sided with leftists. CNN sided with "average Americans".

I also cringe when someone says "I know some Thais here in Los-London and they say that in Bangkok..."

[sushiman]

TRT denies PM's sisters 'unusually rich'

Thai Rak Thai Party members yesterday came out in defence of outgoing Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra's two sisters, who have been accused of being "unusually rich" by Democrat Party deputy leader Alongkorn Pollabutr.

Thai Rak Thai party-list MP-elect Kuthep Saikrachang said Alongkorn's allegations were not new, and that he had simply dragged up old charges to attack Thaksin's sister, Yaowaret Shinawatra.

He dismissed the allegations as groundless.

Alongkorn has also tried to implicate Yaowapa Wongsawat's children in a corruption scam, Kuthep said.

"If Alongkorn has new corruption evidence, he can go ahead and try to verify it. He should know how hard and for how many years these ladies have worked to earn their wealth,'' he said.

Alongkorn, meanwhile, said he would lead a team of reporters on Saturday to inspect a real estate project in Bangkok that is allegedly a "hidden asset" belonging to Yaowapa. "I want to prove the statement of [respected social critic] Prawase Wasi that the whole family is indeed corrupt,'' he said.

Also yesterday, Thai Rak Thai party-list MP-elect Ekaporn Rakkwamsuk attacked the Democrats for issuing a statement condemning the Election Commission. Ekaporn said the Democrats should be condemned for their attempts to destroy democracy by disrupting the election.

"As long as the Democrats try to block the election, the Thai Rak Thai Party can stay on as the caretaker government,'' he said.

The Thai Rak Thai Party made the moves after Thaksin on Tuesday urged them to unite in their fight against the Democrats, saying the party wanted to wipe Thai Rak Thai out. Democrat Party spokesman Ongart Klampaiboon denied the party wanted to destroy Thai Rak Thai, saying it was more interested in eliminating the system of "Thaksinomics".

"The Democrats have no intention to destroy any political party, but to fight Thaksin for inflicting so much damage throughout society," he said. Ongart said Thaksin took a break by not accepting the premiership for a third term in order to plot a comeback that could lead to greater destruction of democratic principles.

He also criticised Thaksin's deputy, Bhokin Bhalakula, for rushing to dominate the drafting of constitutional amendments even before it became clear whether the elections would fill all 500 seats in the House of Representatives.

He questioned Thaksin's motive for wanting Thai Rak Thai to stay in power for "four generations", saying it might be because the party wanted to sell the country's assets.

"I wonder if we'll still have any of Thailand left if Thai Rak Thai stays in power that long,'' Ongart said.

Source - The Nation 13APR06 - click to follow the source

....

Personal comment:

I wonder why TRT is so well informed about Thaksins Sisters wealth? I thought policts and personal income/wealth shouldn't be mixed in this goverment?

"Mr. Bhokin rushing"....nothing new...anything TRT/Thaksin Rules Thailand (still!) is not rushing into?

Questions over Questions.... I wonder when finally one court has the courage to open up the real books and sort out this mess. Also the NCC and EC have been very one-sided with their statements and decisions. Are they being paid by TRT?

Although I agree with many posters, that the Democrat party (my hope) shouldn't "now only" concentrate on doing research and depper digging (which is of course needed, if you want to prove something against Goliath), but also proposing ideas for the future for this country (I miss them too; in the papers anyhow), I still think there are many things very unclear and "wishy washy" what is going on in this gov..

Let's see how things develop, TRT seams to make some first steps trying to get the amendment of the constitution (some say not much change needed) and political reforms going, but unfortunately, as usual only under their terms

Edited April 12, 2006 by sushiman

[sushiman]

THAI TALK

Forget the tears, Thaksin govt is alive and kicking

He has only stepped aside, not down. He may be retreating to the political sidelines, but he is not out of the game. And the current truce is at best only temporary. Most of his critics dismiss his "sacrifice" as a ruse.

Thaksin Shinawatra, they say, has a few more tricks up his sleeve. His public announcement last week that he would not to accept a third term as premier after the next parliament is formed was no more than a subterfuge to prepare himself for a major comeback. His move is seen by cynics as nothing but a tactical move to catch the protesters off-guard. He won't be premier, if that's what the noisy and increasingly powerful anti-Thaksin faction wants. But that doesn't mean he won't be in a position to call all the shots. In other words, he will be a "super-premier".

A super-premier is much more frightening. He isn't bound by the Constitution to account for his wealth. He doesn't have to answer any questions in Parliament. He isn't subject to public scrutiny. He can run the country without any accountability. As he said recently, while he was in mobile mode when the Government House was under siege by the protesters, "I don't have to work from the Government House. It's just a phone call away."

Now Thaksin can let one of his nominees, who will also be only a phone call away, assume the premiership. The super-premier could even manage the country from a golf course in the British Virgin Islands. The CEO has elevated himself into an executive chairmanship without portfolio. The Thaksin regime remains intact, in fact even thriving under this new undeclared organisation chart.

The opposition parties and the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD), whose initial reaction to Thaksin's "political pause" declaration was cautiously positive, have found themselves facing a new dilemma of sorts.

Thaksin can claim to have taken another step back as a compromise. The other side is thus expected to live up to their side of the bargain. By this rationale, the PAD should call off future rallies and the former opposition parties should agree to take part in future elections. Thaksin said he had done his bit and he expected his enemies to do theirs.

The anti-Thaksin camp's euphoria soon evaporated. Thaksin has, in his retreat, built a huge trap for his opponents. With the prospect that he won't be in the premier's seat in the next government, the Democrats and the PAD are compelled to help wrap up - even legitimise - the farcical, bizarre and constitutionally questionable April 2 election.

Thaksin's enemies have the unenviable choice of assisting in somehow putting a stamp of legitimacy on the election results or face the prospect of allowing Thaksin to remain "acting prime minister" for an indefinite period.

What's worse, if this scenario is played out, Thaksin's worst critics will also have to accept the unpleasant fact that through this ludicrous political manipulation, the man who is at the centre of the storm will be in a position to pick one of his lieutenants as the new prime minister, despite the growing chorus decrying the establishment of a puppet government that is clearly a surrogate for the Thaksin regime.

Should this scenario materialise, Thaksin's current political vacation will only be a brief break before he uses the interim government, headed by his nominee premier, as a launching pad for the next election campaign that will reinstall him as the country's most powerful figure, after the supposedly non-partisan political-reform process is completed.

The anti-Thaksin force - buoyed by the estimated 10 million abstention votes plus about three million invalid ballots, juxtaposed with the 16 million votes cast for Thaksin's Thai Rak Thai - is revising its counter-strategy after having declared an initial victory.

The Democrats and the PAD are seeking the nullification of the April 2 election through the Election Commission and the Constitution Court on the grounds that the whole exercise was a farce.

If the new House can't be convened due to constitutional aberrations, a prime minister can't be named. That would open up the way for the invocation of the famous Article 7 of the Constitution, which paves the way for a royally appointed prime minister to break the stalemate.

All of a sudden it has dawned upon the anti-Thaksin elements that the battle for a new era of politics - free from Thaksinomics' populist manipulation based solely on money-driven electioneering techniques - has only just begun.

That emotional scene that Thaksin staged at Government House, with his family members and underlings hugging one another, their eyes brimming with tears, was not the closing chapter but merely signalled a tactical shift.

Get that tape and replay it. Nowhere in his speech did Thaksin say he was bidding farewell to politics.

Suthichai Yoon

The Nation

Source - The Nation 13APR06 - click here

[sushiman]

"In the past five years, the Democrat Party did not win the hearts and minds of Thai people. The party is so slow in taking steps because they are conservative. They are fighting inside until they come to a consensus."

"It's so frustrating," she said. "This is very different from Thaksin's party. When Thaksin makes a decision, he can make it in five minutes."

.... talk first and then think, yes we know what is the med- to long term result of such 5-minutes politics.... he doesn't (didn't) even have to ask anyone neither...

Edited April 12, 2006 by sushiman

[sushiman]

Right, with all lights on Thaksin, Senate election campaign rolls on, quetly.

Candidates can't actively campaign, but what about media? Can the print candidates profiles and issues surrounging them? Would it be against the law?

A couple of months ago The Nation wrote about many of the senators, but then Thaksin with his Shin sale came up and we get nothing since.

Senate elections are more important for Thai democracy than lower House.

Why are the Senate elections more important, can some expert summarize this briefly?

Are not the big decisions made in the lower House, where the 2. April elections where for, where I'm still waiting for some official results, still not finalized the counting? Still one box missing ex Phi PHi Islands?

(sorry if I missed something out )

Khop Khun Maa Khrap

Edited April 12, 2006 by sushiman

[ando]

I think most people respected PADs right to protest. And most people respected the Democrats right not to participate in the elections. And most people respected the Democrats right to make legal challenges over alleged corruption. But I think the public will eventually tire of the country being held to ransom without an effective government. With major infrastructure projects and international trade deals on hold due to this debacle, it will start to hurt the country soon.

Unless the democrats can pull off some kind of a convincing win in the courts they have virtually no cards left to play. If they continue to stall the the effective government of the country and drive down the economy until they get their own way (as they seem to indicate they will), they are unlikely to gain much support from the voting public who could potentially put them in a position where they might be able to actually do something good for the country.

The Democrats are acting like a "60 Minutes" team of reporters trying to expose corruption rather than a political party trying to win government. They dont seem to have any policies other than to get a popularly elected Prime Minister out of politics. Perhaps the Democrats have identified areas of the constitution that need to be changed for the long term benefit of the country. The consensus here seems to be that they indeed have. However, derailing the democratic process for a prolonged period and to the detriment of the country as a whole is bound to work against them.

Things are dragging on. Court processes can be notoriously slow. If the country is sliding backwards and its up to the courts to get an effective government back in place, the decisions they make are likely to be expedient rather than well considered. Such expedient decisions may well set precedents that favour the popularly elected TRT government and be in opposition to the goals of the democrats. The democrats may be shooting themselves in the foot unless they are sure they have allegations the courts will endorse. And it doesn't appear likely that the democrats have much of a chance of pulling off a big court win on any critical issue from what I am reading. It really looks to me that the democrats are just trying to clog up the courts with a multitude of corruption allegations in the hope that some might stick. Not a wise strategy me thinks.

Apart from the courts the only other two powers who could intervene to get the country and the democratic process back on track are the King and the military. Both of which would seem unlikely in the lead up to celebrations of the 60th year of rein by the revered monarch. Post June the military may not be so tolerant of those who would bring the country to a standstill and make it the focus of ridicule internationally. Perhaps some long term good will come out of the dogged stand the democrats have taken. But right at the moment they are causing the country harm and one way or another that will not be allowed to continue indefinitely.

I suspect that when the next genuine elections are held, the democrats will be set back and alienated even further from the majority of Thai voters than they are now. Less than one fifth of one percent of the nations voters marching in the streets doesn't make for a revolution.

[Thaible]

The Democrat's next slogan will be "We know no one will ever vote for us, but at least we're the lesser of two evils".

Instead of spending 1 minute trying to show how they may actually try to help the country someday, they waste everyone's time showing how bad TRT is. And then try to get every other party disqualified so they have no competition.

Shame on the Democrats for holding Thailand for ransom, as the poster above succinctly put it.

Edited April 13, 2006 by Thaible

[sushiman]

EC will ask court to order its dissolution

SURASAK GLAHAN

The Election Commission (EC) will seek a Constitution Court ruling to dissolve the Progressive Democratic Party (PDP) after finding that three candidates were paid and documents falsified to enable them to run in the April 2 general election.

EC secretary-general Ekachai Warunphrapha said criminal charges would be filed against the three candidates, a couple who paid them and the party leader for colluding to commit offences under election law and the criminal code.

But Mr Ekachai said the EC was not authorised to establish if Thai Rak Thai or any political figures were involved.

''We haven't got witnesses that can be linked to other figures. The EC doesn't have the authority [to investigate further] and now we don't have time because a conclusion [for this case] is required,'' said Mr Ekachai. ''We don't have clear confirmation from witnesses if there are other people involved.''

Issara Yuangprasert, the party leader, did not answer calls for her to give a statement and the EC ''could not force her'' to do so, he added.

The EC conducted the investigation in response to a complaint submitted by Democrat party secretary-general Suthep Thaugsuban that the three candidates _ Nipha Chanphoti, Tatchanoo Tangsri and Suwit Op-oon _ were deceived by a Thai Rak Thai member into running for seats in Trang province.

The EC had not concluded on another case filed by Mr Suthep accusing its officials of having been paid to change the EC's database to enable small parties to run in the election, Mr Ekachai said.

The PDP was one of 18 largely unknown parties that ran in the general election with Thai Rak Thai after the three main opposition parties boycotted the poll.

In a statement released on Monday, the Democrats accused the EC of dragging its feet on complaints about Thai Rak Thai's alleged collusion with small parties and the EC allowing candidates who failed to get the required 20% of the vote to re-run in a different constituency.

Mr Ekachai said the three PDP candidates were paid by a married couple, identified as Mr Taksanai and Ms Yok Keesun, at 15,000 baht each to run in the election under the banner of the PDP.

He said Ms Yok also took the three candidates to the Liberty hotel in Bangkok's Saphan Khwai area to arrange the counterfeit documentation.

The EC would file criminal charges against Ms Issara for supporting and colluding with the three candidates to commit a crime under article 100 of the Act Concerning the Constitution Governing General and Senate Elections B.E. 2541, and articles 137 and 267 of the Criminal Code.

The three candidates and the couple would be charged with committing a crime under the same law.

Somchai Srisutthiyakorn, secretary-general of the People's Network for Elections (P-Net), was sceptical that the EC could not trace the masterminds since it had succeeded in finding details such as the amount of money paid and the names of the couple involved.

''There must be someone behind the paying of the couple but the question for the EC is who,'' he said.

''If the EC decides not to investigate further, it means it doesn't want to make any more efforts.''

Mr Ekachai also announced the EC's decision to allow failed candidates in the April 2 general election to run in a different constituency in the upcoming by-elections.

He said this would help by-elections be more competitive and reduce the number of constituencies with lone candidates.

Mr Somchai said the EC resolution favoured a big political party, helping its candidates who were running uncontested in 16 constituencies.

It also meant that the candidates would be registered in two constituencies _ the one where they previously ran and the one they shifted to, he said. ''This will mean more conflicts and complaints for the EC as it only announced on March 1 that candidates would be allowed to contest in one constituency,'' he said.

Meanwhile, the People's Alliance for Democracy will submit fresh evidence to the EC against caretaker Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra for allegedly breaking election law which they said would be enough to disqualify him from seeking election for another year.

PAD coordinator Suriyasai Katasila said Mr Thaksin may have violated election law when he appeared on TV on April 3 and 4 to talk about his populist policies.

Mr Somchai asked how Mr Thaksin could thank 16 million people for voting Thai Rak Thai during an interview on April 3 so soon after the poll.

''He may have his own mechanism to check the poll results or could it be that the EC told him?'' Mr Somchai said.

Source Bangkok Post - 13. April 2006

Edited April 13, 2006 by sushiman

[ando]

Unfortunately, it hasn't occurred to the Democrats yet that the best way to bring about political reform is to promote policies that appeal to the majority of voters. Obviously though, going after votes in the rural areas where the majority of Thais live, would offend their support base in the cities. While the constitional ideals the democrats are striving for may be noble, the methods they are using to attain their ends are far from democratic.

It is indeed ironic that a right wing millionaire bussinessman leader has endeared himself to the poor rural folks and thus secured an overwhelming level of support in the democratic process while the democrats, who are proposing a fairer and more just society have forgotten the people outside the cities.

Thaksin may be a very smart man, but you dont have to be too bright to figure out that in a democracy, election success comes from wooing the great majority of voters wheather they be intellectuals in the city or uneducated peasant farmers out in the provences. The democrats really missed the bus there.

One could say that the very things the democrats are fighting against now wouldn't have come about if there was an effective opposition that catered to the needs of the majority of voters out there in the provences rather than pandering to a minority of middle class city dwellers and intellectuals. Trying to get into power now through the back door through street protests, legal challenges and/or hoping the King will hand it to them if they create enough political chaos and anarchy is not the way things are done in a democracy.

Apart the from the possibility of a military coup, which would almost certainly favour the TRT, the future of Thailand will be decided through the democratic process at elections some time again in the future. The democrats have virtually no chance of getting elected while they ignore the constituency that elects political representatives, and while they continue to devote their energies to intellectual debates among a minority of educated city dwellers. Such an inward thinking party doesn't deserve power in a true democracy. And of course the Thai voters will ensure they never gain power while they continue with their present direction.

I find it truly amazing that the TRT party under Thaksin has been the only party smart enough to figure out that the way to political power in a democracy is to win the votes of the majority of voters. The democrats seem to have forgotten this fundamental principal of democracy. Perhaps the democrats deep thinkers and strategists have been too busy thinking up ideas of how they would like Thailand to be rather than thinking of how to make it actually happen through democratic means.

[Thaible]

Can't wait for the Democrats to have another rally outside of Bangkok!

They can get a good idea of how people feel when you tell them their vote doesn't count because they're all brainwashed or bribed.

[Plus]

You guys seem to miss the point that Democrats were not participating in the recent elections and so didn't campaign with their party policies.

You also seem to forget the role of the Opposition in the parliament - to serve as check and balances to GOVERNMENT's policies. Sometimes it would be nice to have a "shade" government, proposing their own ideas, but in real life it's more practical to propose improvements to policies that are already in place rather then dream about "what if we were in the government".

TRT gained the majority by absorbing smaller parties and factions - it's core members don't control that many seats. If the regional lords were to split away, TRT will be left with 100-130 seats only.

It seems that Democrat bashing doesn't have any real substance at the moment, just emotions. Grow up.

[lukamar]

ando - You have it 100% correct with a couple of good posts that also mirror my thinking.

Thaible - The Democrats have not bothered to organize in the north in the past and they probably won't bother now. From the people I've talked to in the last few days, in the North, they all equate the PAD and the Democrats as one organization, something that a lot on this forum spend much effort telling us that they are separate. Perception is everything just as Thaksin is perceived as being corrupt, he may or may not be legally, the PAD and the Demos are perceived as the same organization.

You guys seem to miss the point that Democrats were not participating in the recent elections and so didn't campaign with their party policies.

Plus, they may have boycotted directly but they participated and campaigned long and hard. Their only party policy was "Thaksin Get out".

You also seem to forget the role of the Opposition in the parliament -

As do you. It's as a check and balance for the government but you have to run in the election to form an opposition not stand on a stage and cry about it. If the major parties did not run candidates, for whatever reason. they don't deserver to be the opposition as they have no elected MPs.

TRT gained the majority by absorbing smaller parties and factions - it's core members don't control that many seats. If the regional lords were to split away, TRT will be left with 100-130 seats only.

That's a big if. As TS is still the party leader, I don't think that will happen at least for a while.

It seems that Democrat bashing doesn't have any real substance at the moment, just emotions. Grow up.

I'll apologize for all of us that are Democrat bashing. Although it's been over a month we have been reading your constant Anti-Thaksin and anti-TRT rhetoric. Why is it that as soon as some people have a differing idea than you, it's all of a sudden, us that should "Grow UP".

The fact remains that the actions of the Democrat party are laughable at best, and not in the best interest of the Thai people or democracy. They are working hard to be as disruptive as possible to the democratic process, although we all know you can't see it.

[sushiman]

I understand your point of views too (the possible economic slowdown, which can take place during these unstable times etc. caused by the protests, one-sided government etc.) and I agree with you, that the Democratic Party, should do some propositions too, not only accusations now, but let’s not forget the ‘current’ situation now here:

Mr. Thaksin himself (and his cronies etc.) made this mess up and they are ‘now’ even prolonging it, by trying to misuse the current boycott of the 3 opposition parties, to even become stronger than before. How? By claiming the PM is gone (but his still the leader of his party and in 1 year he should be back as PM, as they said themselves?) and dictating ‘now’ alone, the requested path for political reforms (instead of also accepting the same weighted corruption accusations which also came along, not only polictical reform and/or "by not" inviting the 3 oppostion parties to take part in these reforms).

I think it’s for all clear that those goals by

- 10-11 million voters (no votes + spoiled votes)

- various most intellectual, acedemic groups

- 3 Main Opposition parties

- PAD

- most understanding foreign observers etc.

to try to

- Eliminate or reduce misuse of power by political players for their own benefit

- Reduce corruption as a whole as this clearly should be done

(I think all agree on this, except the ones who are doing it)

- Reduce oppression and open up media, to allow to broadcast other opinions etc.

- Improve this current non-democratically, nearly dictatoral political thinking of the leader (He clearly never supported or loved open democracy, which he even said himself. But strangely before every election, this word comes up again in shinning lights)

are just now being tried to be brushed under the carpet, by some ‘for TRT hopefully soft’ political reforms under the surveillance of TRT themselves. But no words about any accusations, and thanks Buddha, without any interferance from the main oppostion party.

Sound like typical Thaksin to me. This is a very clever move by TRT or Thaksin.

Shall it blind the Thai people and let them forget what are the goals. Is that right?

Also all those current accusations (Again do you really believe the Democrats, PAD and all others are just making all those stories up?) for the last 2. April 2006 elections and things which happened in the last 5 years are to hot, to just give up now.

Can’t you try to be a little bit patient, and understand that a small “David” has to concentrate on one goal first against a much more powerful “Goliath”, before being able to do the next steps, especially during times, where he has nothing to say in the goverment anyway? Do you believe the TRT would listen, even if they would suggest some ideas. What's important to say and what they are doing now, is anyhow not what TRT (or some members) want to hear.

The accusations are still standing, so I think this clearly should be cleared and cleaned up now first, before they soften their stand, and just do nothing anymore in this direction. Various courts have things on the table now, and it’s to hot just to forget now and let go.

And they are as you know also not the only ones pinpointing on those so many wrongdoings, which as a political opposition as they are; they just have to do this ‘now’, even if this will not make them popular especially up North.

But one day if they will be even partial further more successful (Thaksin remaining the party leader now, but not PM, will not really change anything, will it?), I think Thailand will be soon thankful, that they are going these unpleasant ways now and today.

This is of course now in the hands of mainly juristical or watchdogs groups to support, acknowledge or deny or not.

Are you suggestion them, to forget about all the corruption and recent accusations, and just go on as nothing happened?

I’m sure they also wouldn’t want to do this mainly now, but they have no choice if they want to fight corruption and the misuse of power by the other big party, before it’s to late now and it will go on for many more years, in the same manner as the last 5 years.

Thailand has a great chance now, to become a more major democracy ‘with a try’ for less corruption, and a try to let people be accountable for their actions.

Why not try, and give up so quickly just because some economical figures might be not as gloomy as they could be? Will those gloomy figures, be beneficial for all Thai people anyhow, that’s another point I doubt also. I think Thaksinomics was never on the main right track in the first place, as he’s just bringing the whole country (especially country people) into big depts, with to rush vote- but not country- beneficial med-to long-term actions. Ecological aspects as with most Asian governments, are also still being brushed under the carpet.

Yes again, some things which TRT did, where good too (OTOP, gangs clean up etc.) and also will not be brought to a still stand if a new, or amended (or whatever the outcome will be) party will take over, after a new election with all parties participating again. Why always the scare of you some guys, that all will be lost after a possible change in the goverment? Every leader/party taking over, in any country, no matter what party/group he comes from, will surely continue with overall logical, useful good ideas if they are/were requested and done with common sense and success.

I think what the democrats are doing is called med-to long-term progress and I think they are very brave, even if it will cost some short-term economical slowdown, and not to forget the juristical personal problems they are facing too, by standing up against Goliath with his immense bank account(s) in his pocket(s). A very difficult challenge indead.

If the corruption will take over fully again, and the Democrats couldn’t made their points yet now soon, at least they tried as I believe they should, as again, all those corruption claims which comes clearly targeted towards 100% only one target, can’t be all that wrong. Can’t it?

Let’s hope the "bigger" truth & right will win, as Thailand would be ready for a change now and a more major democracy with a later possible change for the good of the country and its people c could take place. Thaksin did his own very well part, to clean up some dark sides of Thai society too (some mafia, drug and gambling groups), but forget that he shouldn’t be doing the same thing (even on a much bigger scale), just under the umbrella of legality und his own e.g. amended gov-laws and his premier ship.

Don’t give up so quickly and be afraid of change, to many voices are crying for it now, and it just has to be done now. It will be worth a try, as the accusations, and call for change and less corruption here is immense, and especially Thai people with good education and a good overview, understand that Thailand could do it just now and better not drag on in the old manner as before.

It can be done of course with TRT too, as TRT would and could be without Mr. Thaksin a political force, with many various voices, with several opinions, which also would be more beneficial as before for the country, as so far it was clearly just a nearly 100% one-man-show, with really the best will for his country?

Somethings should just be done now first, before Thailand get’s back on track with hopefully the Democrats too, and the other 2 political parties. They will bring their political ideas and plans for sure up soon, as soon they are back in the race. I hope so.

Have faith for a better good, change in Thailand, even if the problems will drag on until after June (with a understandable well respected pause in June).

Big problems/corruption are of course not solved so quickly.

The oppostion party from Berlusconi, one of the most corrupt leaders in Europe in recen times (a good friend of Mr. Thaksin), also needed 5 years to let the people understand a change and the country was also running during that time.

As long as the goverment is not formed now (this is up to the ruling caretaker party now, to make progress and/or accept fraud elections or not and suggest new elections asap, or after reform with all) the democrats I think don't do anything wrong at all, if the continue with digging. Guess much more could come up.

The TRT will do meanwhile anyway what they want, as the Democrats have currently nothing to say in their eyes (understandable).

But I believe as the ruling party (or caretaker party or whatever) they should do in the name of the country a first step towards reconciliations, orelse they are not doing their job right.

But please not misuse a situation (boycot) caused by their own ex PM.

Edited April 13, 2006 by sushiman

[Thaible]

The accusations are still standing, so I think this clearly should be cleared and cleaned up now first, before they soften their stand, and just do nothing anymore in this direction. Various courts have things on the table now, and it’s to hot just to forget now and let go.

The accusations are lies.

The opposition already brought the false accusations to court, and the courts said they had no proof. Of course, some will weakly counter that the legal system can't be relied on. Well, then show your proof to the media so the people can decide through an election. Sondhi owns his own paper so he obviously has a lot of power to do this.

One of the most despicable things coming out of this is the Democrats trying to convict Thaksin with NO proof. If they ever get back in power, then you will see what it's truly like to live under a despotic regime.

Edited April 13, 2006 by Thaible

[lukamar]

MPs troubled by loan repayments

TUL PINKAEW

The abrupt dissolution of the House caught not so well-off MPs from both sides off guard and many are having trouble repaying loans from the MPs' welfare fund. Their salaries were terminated on Feb 24 by the calling of the April 2 snap election, and few of them have extra income.

Former deputy chief of the committee on House affairs Paichit Sriwarakarn said the welfare fund was established during Thai Rak Thai's first term in office as an additional benefit for MPs.

Each MP, government and opposition, was entitled to a maximum two-million-baht loan under the fund, which was a collaboration between the committee, the Finance Ministry and Krung Thai Bank. The only condition for getting a loan was to get a guarantor.

''The bank would then deduct 50,000 baht per month from their salary for four years,'' Mr Paichit said. An average MP's salary is about 104,000 baht a month.

The project ended smoothly in the first period, as then-prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra completed his four-year tenure, with all the loans fully repaid, including interest.

''About 200 MPs applied for the two-million-baht loan this time around. Now there's quite a problem as no one knows when the new parliament can be opened,'' he said. ''Several former MPs are having trouble making the payments because they no longer have the monthly income.''

Supon Petsawang, former head of the committee, said many MPs with loans were new faces with no other income.

''The bank has started sending notices, asking them to pay back the money,'' said Mr Supon.

The opposition boycotted the April 2 polls and their ex-MPs would have to find a way out by themselves, but Thai Rak Thai MPs who were re-elected would again have their monthly salaries.

[lukamar]

Democrats offer to help

SUPAWADEE INTHAWONG

The Democrat party has offered to provide legal and financial assistance to three candidates from a little-known party who are facing legal action from the Election Commission (EC) after confessing they were hired to run in the April 2 general election in a southern province. Democrat secretary-general Suthep Thaugsuban said the party would pay the expenses for candidates Nipha Chanpor, Ratchanu Trangsri and Suvit Ob-oun, who represented the Progressive Democratic party, to fight the case in court.

The Democrats' offer follows a decision by the EC to dissolve the Progressive Democratic party and seek the prosecution of the three candidates.

The candidates earlier told the EC they were paid to run in Trang province.

Mr Suthep denied claims his party employed the three candidates to expose election fraud involving a major party. The Democrats wanted to help the three people unconditionally. The party would help anyone with evidence of poll fraud.

Mr Suthep lashed out at the EC's claim no evidence existed which could implicate a major party in the hiring of candidates to create a competition.

All election commissioners should resign if they are unable to bring the wrongdoers to justice, Mr Suthep said.

''If you think you can do nothing, just quit. You should not have challenged people to lodge a complaint if the commission was wrong. In my view, [EC chief] Pol Gen Wassana should be the first to resign.'' He submitted a letter to the EC chief and other commissioners asking them to look into the fact that many candidates from small parties who ran in the election were allowed to enter by-elections in other constituencies when the results of the April 2 polls were still not official.

Mr Suthep said the EC had created confusion in several southern constituencies. Some candidates who were disqualified by local election panels from running in Songkhla, Chumphon and Pattani were later found to have registered their candidacies for by-elections in Nakhon Si Thammarat, Surat Thani, Phatthalung and Phuket.

The confusion followed the EC's decision to allow unsuccessful April 2 candidates to run in new constituencies. The EC's act had violated the constitution and the election law, said Mr Suthep.

The Thai Ground, Pattana Chartthai and Progressive Democratic parties _which allegedly falsified documents to help their candidates in the previous round _ had candidates in the by-elections.

Some parties which did not contest the April 2 polls now had candidates in the by-elections _ People Power, Palang Dharma, Puen Kasetthai, Thai Chuay Thai, Green Party of Thailand, Siam and Better Life, Mr Suthep said.

=========

This is almost too funny to comment on. Demos report a group to the EC for falsifying documents and when the EC finds in the Demos favor and dissolve the party and charge the candidates the Demos offer to pay their legal bills and give them "financial assistance" and demand the resignation of the EC once again. ROTFLMAO. These guys deserve to be the Ex-Opposition or they are trying to cover something up so the charged candidates don't get to court and turn in the Demos as the masterminds.

[tettyan]

The accusations are lies.

Well, that's a rather strong statement to make. How do you know this? Do you have access to a crystal ball that we all can't see?

The opposition already brought the false accusations to court, and the courts said they had no proof. Of course, some will weakly counter that the legal system can't be relied on. Well, then show your proof to the media so the people can decide through an election. Sondhi owns his own paper so he obviously has a lot of power to do this.

I may not have agreed with the way Thaksin was removed, but that still doesn't change the fact that the man is a crook. The problem is is that the public can't be expected to understand the finer points of securites law, much less understand what a stock market is! When the issues get so technical, and when you can afford the best lawyers in town and have free use of a state-funded megaphone, you can get away with almost anything.

One of the most despicable things coming out of this is the Democrats trying to convict Thaksin with NO proof. If they ever get back in power, then you will see what it's truly like to live under a despotic regime.

Personally, I'm rather disappointent with the Democrats' recent performance, but making outlandish, hyperbolic statements like this does nothing to advance your argument.

[sushiman]

The accusations are lies.

Thaiable, I'm talking about accusations, which have been going on for years, and which have been accumulated, and have let the cork of the bottle to finally exploid, after the Shin Corp sales.

What have you been reading the last couple of years here? I think you life in Disneyland saying all accusations are a lie? Even the most off TRT supporters wouldn't even say that.

That's one of the poorest statements I heard in the forum so far.

Accusations are also questions (but not mainly) of ethics and good governance, which is supposed to be done, from a political leader/party.

As you might understand, I can't list again all accusations here (hope you understand) but I think there's also really no need to do so, what newspapers are you reading?

All I can say people are fed-up of politics, done like a CEO with a very much one-sided marketing campaign (it's about the same as Pepsi is trying to tell you, that Pepsi is a sporty soccer drink, while every normal person knows, that to many sugar are in those drinks, but the people still drink it except those who are playing professional sports, whom you can find well paid in those advertsings) and with mainly the same group taking profits from those politics. If you don't understand that, and believe the only main sunshine news , TRT is telling Thailand, than I pitty a bit your observation and analyzing skills.

Also if you think the courts are using the proves to dig in more, than you also still didn't get yet, how those mainly watch-dogs have been set up and are working.

Why don't you go to Bangkok Post, The Nation, Thai Post etc. or any other decent Thai Newspaper

(don't expect anything deeper digging fron the controlled, supressed Thai TV media) and read their archives or just check the daily news. Or go to any decent University and talk to the most of the professors there. I guess even the ordinary Thai citizien on the BTS or MRT would not agree with you.

Generelly people know what is going on, but they still maybe believe it's better to have a corrupt gov./leader because at the end of the day, they will profit too (that would be a more realistic statement for you to say), but this are of course all short-term wishes and can't function in any final analazied working accounting system in the med-to longerm. Somewhere the money will be gone, and the progress will be stopped by it, badly.

You think all people are cracy and are making up things? Come up, get out of Disneyland soon.

Sorry I think you are too one-sided, and totally missinformed even you might life here.

Edited April 14, 2006 by sushiman

[sushiman]

EDITORIAL

PM short in stature internationally

Bizarre demands to meet with leaders show that Thaksin's inflated sense of self-importance has yet to diminish

For a man who likes to boast about his international stature, caretaker Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra has lately become more of an irritant to the Bangkok-based diplomatic corps. He started rubbing these diplomats the wrong way in mid-January, when he asked them to accompany him to At Samat district, so they could observe his ludicrous reality show that saw him meeting with local villagers to hear their grievances. Now, as a caretaker prime minister on holiday, he is not only making plans to visit several countries, including the United Kingdom, France and the United States, but also unreasonably demanding to be allowed to meet with their respective leaders while there.

He has insisted all along that his visit would be a private one. If that is so, then why summon these Bangkok-based envoys and have them relay such a message to their respective governments? Surely this was more of an opportunity for him to slam the opposition Democrat Party and boast about how clean the April 2 election was.

Recent reports, plus conversations with the diplomats themselves, have revealed that they felt these requests to meet with their leaders were placing them in an awkward position.

Their lack of enthusiasm is understandable indeed.

First, the manner in which Thaksin left the premiership was simply too murky, and thus it would be reasonable to assume that none of these foreign governments would want to appear to be buddying up to him. After all, he is currently no more than a lame-duck prime minister - and a much-reviled one at that.

In the diplomatic world of protocol, there is also a question of how to receive Thaksin. He is not exactly a "former" head of government. His status during these visits, amid this time of rapid changes, is still very much uncertain. Maybe Thaksin could not care less about diplomatic protocol?

While he may still have some old friends living abroad, Thaksin appears to be banking on the notion that his international stature will come through for him in securing meetings with these heads of state at such short notice.

One senior opposition member hit the nail right on the head with his opinion that Thaksin's foreign tour was purely for domestic consumption.

To get a better understanding of Thaksin's unconventional behaviour, it pays to look into the recent past. The embattled Thai premier has never hesitated to push the envelope with any controversial idea or action in any forum, domestic or international, if it would improve his ratings.

He jumped on the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (Apec) summit in Bangkok, for example, as an opportunity to boast to world leaders about his much-hyped One Tambon One Product (Otop) products. And yet he balked on issues that could have helped him really climb a notch or two in the opinions of those same leaders.

When asked about the root causes of terrorism, Thaksin stunned the international press corps by dismissing that as a "technical question". He seemed completely to forget that terrorism, not Otop, was at the centre of discussions at the Apec meet.

Furthermore, he would frequently boast about how well he knew this or that world leader. His can-do attitude has inspired many of his supporters, but there were also many who saw right through the man and the hype behind him.

And Thaksin appears to be living in Lah-Lah Land even today, believing he still wields enough clout in the world community to expect foreign leaders to snap to attention at a moment's notice.

What Thaksin has never been able to understand is that all of those state banquets and 19-gun salutes his foreign hosts have given him these past five years were because he was the head of the Thai government, certainly not because of himself per se.

But then again, what else could be expected from such a man, who seems to believe that what is good for him is good for Thailand - and not the other way around?

Source - The Nation 14April2006

[ando]

So, would you say "The Nation" is pro-Thaksin or anti-Thaksin?

[lukamar]

So, would you say "The Nation" is pro-Thaksin or anti-Thaksin?

My view is it's an outlet for anti-Thaksin anti-TRT propaganda. They can spin the news faster than a whirling dervish.

[tettyan]

So, would you say "The Nation" is pro-Thaksin or anti-Thaksin?

My view is it's an outlet for anti-Thaksin anti-TRT propaganda. They can spin the news faster than a whirling dervish.

That may be true, but it's also true of the Manchester Guardian, the BBC, FOX News and countless other media outlets in the world. The key point is not the "imparitiality" of the media (which is impossible anyway), but guaranteeing that viewers and readers have a CHOICE.

Edited April 14, 2006 by tettyan

[sushiman]

So, would you say "The Nation" is pro-Thaksin or anti-Thaksin?

My view is it's an outlet for anti-Thaksin anti-TRT propaganda. They can spin the news faster than a whirling dervish.

Lukamar, I don't understand why a Farang like you, coming from a fair well working Democratical country like you has to adapt, to this non-sense rubish thinking, that only a goverment with corruption can survive here in Thailand. Or whatever is your point here, all the time, with your TRT critics bashing.

You don't like TRT (you said) but your don't like the opposition. So what are you doing in this forum? Just trying to pulll both sides in the dirt. Very constructive I must say!

The Nation is not one unit, and their journalist don't have to follow one guide-line (as TRT has to)

with rapporting (my friend a Thai works there). And don't forgot they are nearly 100% thais with very good education working there, and I guess they know a bit more than a farang like you, what's going on in this country.

If you think The Nation does as above explained by yourself (really one-sided rubish, sorry!), than I must say you don't read the Bangkokpost, The Day, The Daily Post nor international news, coming from people, not just trying to bash the PAD to get some story runing, but understanding that corruption is and was done in the last 5 years very badly, and that it's urgently needed to change something here.

If some twisted Farangs like you, even support this, I can only shake my head.

Either you've been to long here and your Thai people have turned you around with your so superficial short-minded thinking that quick cash is needed to survive (and your stupid remarks that 16 million voters have decidced, sorry the most of them are being cheated, paid and/or are uneducated people voting so, doesn't matter now if yourself have friends and relatives their - I'm sure you will feel offendend again, but sorry mate that's the truth), or you just basically forgot generel standard Western rules of fair social behaviour and enjoying and supporting un-corrupt ways of doing politics.

Go and support further more corruption (and bash the oppostion), and you can be assured that at the end of each economical turn from this party, nearly every single Thai has been cheating each other and the Farangs who have been working and living here too. Yes let this sickness continue to grow even to further heights!

I'm off flying home, and I will be glad to leave this country back for a while, as it gave me a big headache, and I will stop posting here as it gives me further headaches than reading so senseless, unlogical remarks, especially by people coming from more or less well running countries.

I really was surpised to learn that so many "especially" old farangs here, forgot about their roots, and understanding of punishment for corruption etc..

I just wish the PAD and the Democrats, and all people who believe in justice and a non-corrupt goverment GOOD LUCK! I'm sure they will make progress if they are not being stopped by views within the watchdogs, just as yours (and even more, by money under the table which would not be you agree).

But still it gives my headache, to see so many old farangs here, with their twisted "we have to survive with corruption and scared of any change, warning all growth will be halted etc." and the bashing of some brave view people, who are trying to change finally something in this corrupt country for the good of all.

Good luck with your hopefully nothing will change attitude! I'm sorry but I think you guys belong to the old guards, and you don't get the new spirit of hope, and you could be worsening the situation with your attitude "of non-action" by many means.

Yeah, just let it be as the Beatles was singing, and you will also be cheated badly one day and the whole economy will slip down very badly even more (not short-term but it will eventually happen as big spendings, and big cheatings, can't sum up at the end of the day) thanks to missmanagement and widespread even more coming corruption sickness: as so as the goverment, so can we, will be of course the reaction of such acknowledged corrupt party approvals and votings, which were basically most generated with cash promises and/or payments and short-minded views of rural people, who understandable (no blame) think short-minded which I understand of course, but which shouldn't be done by any goverment. This are currently African standards here, if you accept and support this, good luck!

Good luck also with your strange views about corruption and fair votings where only the numbers counts (and not how they have been paid and cheated of) etc. and people trying to do something against it and best is, don't read any newspapers at all, watch filtered Thai TV, they will bring you the cleaned out news.

With 3 from reality disctracting soaps runing on the best times daily, to keep the Thais busy and happy, with corruption and love twisting stories, so they learn to understand that this belongs to their culture, and it can't go without. Forgive us goverment, for doing same, and the end we will take care of you, but we need are big cakes, orelse we can't help you sorry

Don't support the critics, they could avoke change!!?? Strange views some of you guys have!

Good luck for all the critics, and don't stop digging!

Edited April 14, 2006 by sushiman

[sushiman]

Lukamar,

did also by the way good postings (informatif especially during election times) I want to apologize if above is one-sided from my side, but I really don't understand if a Farang living here complains about the The Nation, the only newspaper who had the guts to tell the truth (what is going on in this country) since the beginning of the Thaksin Aera.

If the Bangkok Post just recently did the same open rapportings, I think it's no coincedance, that both leading English Speaking Thai Newspapers, are open and are trying to get the truth out there.

If you can't trust nearly 100 journalists (mostly with good education, also studying abraod or in the best universities here) working there, than I think you don't even trust your own grandmother

Enjoy Songkarn guys!

[lukamar]

Lukamar,

did also by the way good postings (informatif especially during election times) I want to apologize if above is one-sided from my side, but I really don't understand if a Farang living here complains about the The Nation, the only newspaper who had the guts to tell the truth (what is going on in this country) since the beginning of the Thaksin Aera.

If the Bangkok Post just recently did the same open rapportings, I think it's no coincedance, that both leading English Speaking Thai Newspapers, are open and are trying to get the truth out there.

If you can't trust nearly 100 journalists (mostly with good education, also studying abraod or in the best universities here) working there, than I think you don't even trust your own grandmother

Enjoy Songkarn guys!

Well sushiman. I don't know how a one line answer to a question about the Nation newspaper managed to illicit a 1/2 page reply in 2 posts of flames and rants. I apologized for jumping on you a while back, now I think it's your turn to do the same.

The nation is anything but impartial, the Post is much better. You can not even tell there is any reporting going on sometimes it's so bad it's a constant editorial. It's not a newspaper it's a propaganda mill and they have won you over. Case in Point.."PM FLEES CAPITAL" when in fact he was campaigning upcountry, when Sondhi flew to China, it was reported that he was taking a vacation but your bastion of independent reporting forgot to mention the Police had ask him to come in for a talk or they would issue a warrant and that he had over 100 charges against him, but that's just independent reporting right? Have you asked yourself who owns shares in Nation Media Group? "The Nation" has an agenda, my Austrian friend and in your case they have succeeded masterfully. Possibly you should take your own advice and read other news sources who may have a more balanced or at least different viewpoint.

Statements like "If some twisted Farangs like you, even support this, I can only shake my head." is inflammatory, as isyour "stupid" comment. The same could be said of you, but it wasn't. We all have our own views based on our experiences and mine is no more twisted than yours or others just from a differing point of view.

Have a good trip home, hope you didn't overstay your visa. Unlike you I can't wait to get back to the LOS, corrupt or not, and get out of the cold and wet here on the pacific, go to the fresh market, make merit and just sit on our front porch and enjoy life with our friends and family.

[sushiman]

Lukamar,

did also by the way good postings (informatif especially during election times) I want to apologize if above is one-sided from my side, but I really don't understand if a Farang living here complains about the The Nation, the only newspaper who had the guts to tell the truth (what is going on in this country) since the beginning of the Thaksin Aera.

If the Bangkok Post just recently did the same open rapportings, I think it's no coincedance, that both leading English Speaking Thai Newspapers, are open and are trying to get the truth out there.

If you can't trust nearly 100 journalists (mostly with good education, also studying abraod or in the best universities here) working there, than I think you don't even trust your own grandmother

Enjoy Songkarn guys!

Well sushiman. I don't know how a one line answer to a question about the Nation newspaper managed to illicit a 1/2 page reply in 2 posts of flames and rants. I apologized for jumping on you a while back, now I think it's your turn to do the same.

The nation is anything but impartial, the Post is much better. You can not even tell there is any reporting going on sometimes it's so bad it's a constant editorial. It's not a newspaper it's a propaganda mill and they have won you over. Case in Point.."PM FLEES CAPITAL" when in fact he was campaigning upcountry, when Sondhi flew to China, it was reported that he was taking a vacation but your bastion of independent reporting forgot to mention the Police had ask him to come in for a talk or they would issue a warrant and that he had over 100 charges against him, but that's just independent reporting right? Have you asked yourself who owns shares in Nation Media Group? "The Nation" has an agenda, my Austrian friend and in your case they have succeeded masterfully. Possibly you should take your own advice and read other news sources who may have a more balanced or at least different viewpoint.

Statements like "If some twisted Farangs like you, even support this, I can only shake my head." is inflammatory, as isyour "stupid" comment. The same could be said of you, but it wasn't. We all have our own views based on our experiences and mine is no more twisted than yours or others just from a differing point of view.

Have a good trip home, hope you didn't overstay your visa. Unlike you I can't wait to get back to the LOS, corrupt or not, and get out of the cold and wet here on the pacific, go to the fresh market, make merit and just sit on our front porch and enjoy life with our friends and family.

fair points too, but I think it doens't matter who own the Nation (we all know that) or Bangkok Post or anyone, as opinions are as you say also based on various views and life experiences. But still I believe all those journalist working there, you can believe them that they are mostly right, as they do it for 5 years already (Thaksin critzisising), and their thoughts and opinions, match precisly, mostly with all other "Free-TRT" inpedented bodies in this country. Unfortunately due to the immense power and money influence they have, not to much, but guess all the others achieved so far a remarkable outcome, which of course has to be finalized as a puppet-master will not change much, only distribute more lies in this country.

I just know one thing for sure: cheating, corruption, manipulating and lying to people should not be tolerated. Especially with a government who should take care of all people and the country, and not only the ones with the higher voting numbers, and mainly at the end themselves.

If you just watch Thaksin for just one week, you know what I'm talking about.

Enjoy your trip back, and hope to talk to you later, even if we are/were not same opinion, I think you are a great good poster, and intelligent in your point of views, with just another opinion. That can happen.

Keep up the good work.

talk to u later mate

cheers

Sushiman

PS/ I never flame, I just debate from my heart, wich I believe with a good sense of what is right and what is wrong....if people don't agree, I dont' care, but we can always talk about it ...right

can't wait to see the news of the other poster, trying to welcome Thaksin with some Eggs at Heathrow airport just some stupid talk of course...

Edited April 14, 2006 by sushiman

[ando]

Good to see you back on track again Suchiman. Personal attacks dont add anything to a debate.

I do have to disagree with you on your point that the 16 million votes for TRT shouldn't count because they came mainly from the poor, uneducated and possibly ill-informed peasant farmers of the north. Every free democracy on earth acknowledges that one mans vote is as good as anothers regardless of education standards or social class. If the peasant farmers were ill-informed the democrats have to bear a lot of the burden of responsibility for that.

All the Democrats have to do is to get out there and swing 25% of the rural voters over and they would have a majority. Offering some incentive for the millions who abstained would also be of some advantage too. They failed to do that because they failed to consider the needs of the rural people. Crying foul because voting booths were facing a certain way and the government has a media advantage is just a cop out excuse for their failure to put in the ground work in order to swing the rural vote and pick up some of the abstainers.

Unfortunately, just about all Thais have come to accept corruption in one form or another as a way of life in all levels of their society. They accept it but that doesn't mean they like it. I am sure just about all Thais would like to see an end to corruption, however, for the poor there are more pressing immediate needs in their day to day life. Conversely, the more comfortable middle class Thais do not have to worry about losing the farm to a loan shark or selling their daughters into prostitution in order to feed the family. The middle class can have the luxury of pondering the ethics of the system of government. I am sure the rural poor would love to have the luxury of being in that position too. But right now, the rural people dont have that luxury. They are more concerned with things like basic health care, education for their kids and the ability to earn a livable income.

Certainly a lot of the rural poor are bad money managers as the poor in most countries usually are. This is not due to them being reckless, irresponsible people but rather due to poor education and little experience with money. Most of the rural poor are VERY hard working, kind hearted folk who worry about their kids future just as any other people do. They worry about basic health care, they worry about trying to improve productivity on the farm in order to gain the income to afford a better life. They worry about the family having to split up while some go to the city to find a decent paying job. They dont have time to worry about Thaksins family selling their shares to a Singapore company or if it was legal for them to dodge the tax on profits.

TRT under Thaksin has recognized the needs of these rural voters and tapped into this huge reserve of democratic votes. The Democrats have failed to do this and will remain in opposition until they do.

I believe the democrats have put the cart before the horse in trying to reform the constitution without the support of the majority of voters. I think that most of us here agree that the democrats hold the moral high ground at the moment, but just being right isn't enough in a true democracy. You need to have the support of the people to bring about permanent change. And support of the majority of people, not just the educated elite minority.

Right at the moment the democrats have all their eggs in one basket. They are hoping for a big win in the courts that will vindicate their actions and bring about reform. I doubt thats going to happen because there are a lot of smart lawyers around who could make soap smell like cheese.

Things will drag on and there will be a lot of pressure on the courts to come to a decision and get the countries government functional again. Court decisions are likely to be expedient rather than idealogical based. And that will surely favour Thaksin and the TRT for the simple reason that they have the support of the vast majority of the countries voters. Time will tell, but I think the democrats are banking on a longshot.

Where the democrats have failed Thailand is in the most fundamental principle of democracy of lobbying to gain sufficient votes to form a government to carry their policies and principles. Their ideology in bringing about reform my be sound, but in the end its worth zero if they cant raise enough support to get into government and implement those reforms.

It appears to me that the democrats have been outwitted by Thaksin who simply followed the most basic principles in the democratic process of going out and attracting the most votes. I think the democrats attempt at a coup (all be it a bloodless coup) is an outdated strategy that will be rejected in the courts and the military as well. If Thaksin can hold the TRT together to weather this storm they will be stronger than ever and the democrats will have done the people of Thailand no favours.

When the democrats finally figure out that they need to get outside their intellectual think tanks and actually doing something to encourage the majority of people to vote for them (even the poor uneducated rural people), then maybe they will be in a position to bring about change.

[lukamar]

Another well thought out post ando, if I didn't already agree with you I'd be converted.

Good to see you back on track again Suchiman. Personal attacks dont add anything to a debate.

I really have to defend Sushi a bit here, as we have talked a lot. His native language is not English and sometimes he misinterprets things that are flippant, meant to be funny or pointed as being a serious comment, as we do his comments. I would love to be even partly as fluent in his language, which was my grandfathers mother tongue, but I don't remember much except how to swear... I always reread his posts a few times and then go back and see how he may have interpreted what was said, before I reply.