Search Engine Optimization

[~G~]

I do strongly affirm a .php will more be rated after a .htm page (due the fact the content could have change since the spider went, so the search engine can not affirm visitor will get the right content)

Search Engines can never guarantee what will be in the page when it's actually visited. Whether it is html or php.

Is it so difficult to have a cron job run in the background and generate a new index.html page every 10 minutes, that will reflect changes in the database? Will be very similar to have a dynamically generated php page.

Or take the trivial example of a webmaster that changes the content of his html page a bit every day to keep it updated.

[~G~]

Top points:

- BackLinks from other sites which are rated high on Google.

- Good, rich content with the relevant keywords in correct density thoughout the content and title (meta tags are less significant). "Correct" density is not absolute it changes per Search Engine.

- Link structure which allows easy crawling of all pages in the site.

thats the best advice on here.....

Thanks.

[~G~]

Another point: there are so many sites explaining "how to beat google" one can find "proofs" for practically any SEO theory online. Nobody really know, common sense wins. Dirty tricks can only works for some time.

I was doing SEO nine years ago, and managed to totally dominate InfoSeek. It was all based on cloacking by using ASP, something that cannot be successfully done today.

For most (popular) two words combinations, we used successful templates, and could put any site in the top 10 listings, in matter of minutes. We had a few sites, and registered them under several names. For many keywords we dominated ALL of the top 10 positions. We had over 10,000 visits a day, and over 50,000 registered members in matter of months just from that. We faced only two problems: other sites doing the same, and infoseek constantly changing its indexing algorithms to fight us. Obviously those tricks could not last long.

[sting01]

I do strongly affirm a .php will more be rated after a .htm page (due the fact the content could have change since the spider went, so the search engine can not affirm visitor will get the right content)

Search Engines can never guarantee what will be in the page when it's actually visited. Whether it is html or php.

Is it so difficult to have a cron job run in the background and generate a new index.html page every 10 minutes, that will reflect changes in the database? Will be very similar to have a dynamically generated php page.

Or take the trivial example of a webmaster that changes the content of his html page a bit every day to keep it updated.

Let me rewrite my sentence, because it's not clear :

Create 2 pages, with absolutely similar content, but one called index.php, the other index.html

Then a search engine will rank : 1) index.html, 2) index.php. If all is equivalent, .html will always be ranked first, because the probability to have a modification a that file are less than with a php.

Also, the spider do not come one time a year, but several times, so pattern can be made based on the infos (date of publication, date of modification ....).

Right now, and that the trend amongst the hightly considered professionals, is more to understand the internal logic of the search engines, rather than to work on some trick. The only actual tricks that work is simply to create a well formated page. The fact to have an archive of a forum in .html rather than in .php is not a trick, it's an help to the spider/bot and strongly asked by google for exemple.

Check google coding or similar, and you will see how the ranking is made. So you will understand/find why other sites must point on your, why you have to have a site map, why you have to clevertly use ALT and TITLE (title is uselss tag, but why not use it to simply rewrite agin the keywords, so improve their weights?). If we know how it work, so we (you and I) will be able to present a perfect page for a given spider (unsure it will also be perfect for another spider, if oyu get my point).

[techie]

sting01...

Thanks for your links but still i could find no reference to the mentioned top lines or the top 100/150k? that you mentioned..

I will finish on a parting note here as this is such a good debate..

what is published about the way (not just google) but ALL search engines work is to be taken with a pinch of salt. As mentioned there are hundreds of pages on the net stating how it all works, they are all opinions. Yes google explains how it works on its own official pages but when i am seeing sites going to the sandbox, pr0 going to pr8 overnight and other strange happenings its hardly keeping in line with what they state..

NOTHING is set in stone...

Part of our job is to take a page, no matter how it is formed and get it too the top, simple, we have to do it or we dont get paid...

Part of this involves tracking sites, we only officially track after dmoz status has been granted, (hence our editors)...we do this for our customers, they want to see results..

What is fact here is that to us (after tracking) it makes no difference.

If the page is totally useless and non relevant content, crap title etc, etc, etc, etc it will be hard

If the page is ok, but has good links and relevant content (good for user).. it will be easy

From what we have seen a making a perfect page with perfect script just doesnt make a difference..

IF you put out a perfect page but the content was totally off the mark then you can expect to be in the sandbox...

We have to work with all these factors whilst keeping in budget, (we cant rework every site)...

If there was any trick to getting to the top it would not be on the web, its a dark world and if anyone knew how to hit top spot in a competitive field then they would keep it to themselves..

the real truth is if you make a page which is relevant, good content, good navigation, pr6+backlinks, anchor text, title, in directorys, regulary updated and you give it 6 months you will come out smiling..

taking out other scripts will not make a diffrence...its a balancing act...

google recently anounced a press meeting where some of the top seo guys in the world will go to the interview to try and get a few questions in...GOOGLE when the results came back i will comment further about how google works, but up to now i cant because other than like everyone else it would just be my opinion..

And yes, in the past 18 months we have turned around 231 customer sites so now when they type their chosen keywords in they will be getting results that they need, (and over their competitors)..

!!

Edited April 19, 2006 by techie

[sting01]

Thanks for your links but still i could find no reference to the mentioned top lines or the top 100/150k? that you mentioned..

??????????????

May I be sarcastic, pedantic or simply rude? DID YOU READ the various documents? Eyesglasses? Contact Lens? Optical equipement as OB 41?

In at least 2, namely the tech doc about the spider, and the glossary of tricks, it's stated the spiders do not parse after 101K or 150 K. What part is technically so difficult to understand for someone of your caliber and with so much reputation amongst the IT community? I can agree you can not understand my barking language, but obviously those articles are well formatted in usual english english or in usual american english and you should have not problem to understand what they say.

Or does your point is simply to state how much client you got in one year? Great, I am trully impress it's almost 80 times more than I had during the same period. But maybe not the same clients, and maybe they do not follow you for the last 4 years.

Put a page at the top? Following what key word? The thai + visa exemple is not relevant. It's like when www.theunderdogs.org changed to be www.the-underdogs.com. I had to search for the + underdogs. Obviously the first one in every search engine was the relevant one (even in Copernic I get the right site as #1). But it's so obvious ... If it was not the fact it will simply show the webmaster was drunk as a polish cossack a sunday after the mass.Wanna another exemple : google that , move + and + stay, what is the result? Does it was obvious you will got it?

Google siam + indo? What is the first one, what is the second one? Now, can you invert that ranking, mean put the french site #1, and Steve website #2 ???????????????????? That is a good demonstration. If yes, can you please develop, no need to give the inner and dark secret, but just how to process for that, the methodologie for the process and document if possible, mean if youthink you have to work on that part, tell us WHY (not what you will do, I do agree it's your own professional secret). Enjoy me, enlight me please, I am ready to be your Anakin if you can be Palpatine (the dark secret of the dark side).

If the page is totally useless and non relevant content, crap title etc, etc, etc, etc it will be hard

If the page is ok, but has good links and relevant content (good for user).. it will be easy

From what we have seen a making a perfect page with perfect script just doesnt make a difference..

IF you put out a perfect page but the content was totally off the mark then you can expect to be in the sandbox...

We have to work with all these factors whilst keeping in budget, (we cant rework every site)...

Here I am a bit in shock. A professional, in each and every profession, have a duty to advise his client. Or? Mostly people who ask for SEO work to be mad are individual person, or very small companies, those people also need advice and help. If the guy or the girl come with a garbage website, that is your duty (at least I keep it as mine) to point on those problems. &lt;deleted&gt;, or who will care if you do an outstanding SEO job (thatI am sure you daily do) if the page is impossible to catch with FF (20.5 % of hte market if I can believe W3c), or with IE <5.5 ? Do you know in USA if you want to touch the latino community, you have to be compliant with Netscape 4.7x? If my client come with a page that is not obviously compliant and it's also obviously directed to the latino comunity, so I will do nothing but advise him first. I do care about how a page is formed. And btw us, the spider also do (oooooooooooooooooops I forgot you read the technical document but you did not found any point on it, it is not?)

Well, interresting indeed, both technically and also socialy. Obviously we do not share the same phylosophy about our works, I do not care much about the money (and God know I certainly need it more than you), but care more about the globality of my work, and the respect of the trust than a eventual client will give me. I do repeat people like hte OP are certainly not a corporate (even if the site show a well establish business here and abroad). So yes, imagine if you do that job (obviously as stated I refused to do but just given some advices) the guy will not only expect you to push him on the top (that I do not think it's possible due the activities with a lot of concurents on that segment) but also provide him accurate advice on how the whole site is accesible by visitors( in speed, user friendly). People f*****g do not cares to be top one in one page if someone use some wording, but they simply are asking to get visitors and keep those visitors.

If you did not get that reality, even if you can put any website ranked #1, you simply abuse of your clients, because it will be like PhD of oenology (wine scence) for someone who is leaving in Bouar (Central Africa Republic). Totally useless. Your clinet when asking SEO, are simply asking to have more visitors, more clients, and not visitors who hit the page and live after 2 minutes because it take too long to appear. that is not technical, but simply how any real professional have to react and in each and every field of activity.

What you say on that? What you say on the siam + indo problem? What you say about the docs?

Edited April 19, 2006 by sting01

[techie]

To answer you point sting01, firstly i did have a read and what i found in the robot document you offered is this..

How does an indexing robot decide what to index?

If an indexing robot knows about a document, it may decide to parse it, and insert it into its database. How this is done depends on the robot: Some robots index the HTML Titles, or the first few paragraphs, or parse the entire HTML and index all words, with weightings depending on HTML constructs, etc. Some parse the META tag, or other special hidden tags.

We hope that as the Web evolves more facilities becomes available to efficiently associate meta data such as indexing information with a document. This is being worked on...

the other pieces i did not go through as well as i should have but after a look i still can find no reference, perhaps i do need glasses..

On one page you offered i found this..

The following individuals made this project possible by submitting their opinions on each ranking factor, and adding comments where they felt it important. I have taken note of many of these comments in my description of the ranking factors and each score is representative of the group's overall opinions.

Opinions...so i read no more, the whole web, including this thread is made up of opinions, are they right or wrong?

What i enquired about in my first post on the matter was this, read the big text....

However i would be interested if you could point me to an OFFICIAL source which goes more in to the top 100-150 lines relevany rates/compared to metas. as this is something i am very interested in..

i am not trying to state how many sites we have succesfully sent to the first page no, i am trying to point out there are far more important things than worrying about the top 100 lines/k, php, html, flash, scripts etc etc than what you are stating.

Here I am a bit in shock. A professional, in each and every profession, have a duty to advise his client. Or? Mostly people who ask for SEO work to be mad are individual person, or very small companies, those people also need advice and help.

Some clients have sites before they come to us, FACT, all people have a budget FACT..

We do tell people what actions we would take to their site to help the seo, if they can afford the cost they pay if they cant we work with what they have...We are a company and we will not send a client away because we feel their site isnt good enough for us to work with...

Even though we deal with some very small companies we also deal with some of the largest companies in the WORLD...they do not need advice. Please read my profile and you will have reference to our most well known dealings...

People f*****g do not cares to be top one in one page if someone use some wording, but they simply are asking to get visitors and keep those visitors.

I dont know why you feel you need to swear but yes our clients do care aboput being at the top, it is a business for them. Getting top spot means visitors dont it?

I dont know what you are on about when you say type in siam+indo, i have no idea who steve is so i not sure what to expect, either way the result came out as i would expect..

IF any one approaches us and ask for top page we evaluate what they have and get on with it, if their page takes 2 minutes to load i am afraid unless we have their permission we do not make the changes, we have completed what they asked of us, if however they ask us for advice on a faster, cleaner web friendly page we will do that also,

All our customers are given a guideline of what to expect and we follow it up with constant support to enable them to keep their site where it belongs..

Some clients have sites with over 10-20,000 pages...it is not practical to start playing about unless they express an interest in us helping them out....

I would love to be able to help people out but we are a business and as such we act like one...

[sting01]

yes you right, I should have read your profile, most impressive, VErisign, Worldpay ... Great. What you did for them? Oooooooooooooops NDA , so you can not precise.

Btw us, some of the largest would mean M$, or Sun microsystem , would be quite an achievement / success to do work for one of those (I hope we can agree Microsoft in one of the biggest company , and Sun is not far behing (Sun = Java in case you are in doubt)). Anyway Verisign, even if it's just the UK branch it's not bad. that is clearly a good start, hope you will improve soon .

I still think you did not read the documents, nor the robottext (obviously you missed something, as someone adviced in another post, to read you have to start from top left and go throught all the lines to reach the bottom right, assuming the language used is european (obviuosly it's english , isn't it?)). But, I understand, you are in business, young poster, and have to impress the future potential customers. Follow up. Did you read the Google document? They advise people to report to the local police those who claim they can push a website hight in the ranking but can not show any legit work. I asked your expertise on 2 sites that are currently ranked 1 and 2 in google when you use the key words siam + indo in that order.

About the relation btw a service company and the client, their is not need for me to comment, public will judge it. I like Sunbelt way to operate, he come here and give advice, real advice, not just ' My company can handle it, take a rendez vous'. The guy take time to answer the question. Like if he was bound to advice us. Indo Siam do the same. It's how respectable professionals act. If I go to see Sunbelt, and say I want to buy a bar, he will advice me I risk to loose my money, and that I should maybe consider another investment. If I really wnat the bar, so no problem, up to me. But he adviced me. Say you are not interested if a page take 2 mn to load is bad, really bad. You are running only for the money, not for your work. you are looking only to get money, not to provide a service to the your customers.

Anyway, we have to agree we disagree on everything, and as I genuily went here to help, and as I did it a little bit (already checked the website and give comments), do not worry I will not bother you anymore. I will simply advice you to look a bit in astalavista.com, their are several key articles that will make you feel ....mmmmm..... less self confident about your supposed skills in SEO. Obviously w do not share the same view on our work (maybe I am too much customer oriented, and it's why I am poor), nor the same ethic (the way to behave during your working time with respectfor oyur clients), nor the same clients. It was intereting discussion, obviously you went to do your self advertising, you did well, I went to spread a bit of knowledge, I certainly fail as usual, but as my goal was to give and not to get, what I did or said is not lost. Btw us, are you aware that is a community, not a IT fair with your stand in the middle? I like to address technical points, propose technical solutions, you prefer to say your company know best. Possible, maybe , not sure, I have problem to believe it in fact, people who have knowledge usually use it to explain their position, you did not that.

Cheers

[sting01]

too be more simple :

http://www.affinitynewmedia.com/services.asp

Do you agree that URL is related to your company website?

If yes, do you agree thsi webiste is the way to show how good and technically skilled your company is?

if you answer yes at both those questions, so I would love to know why I got a javascript error saying object missing line 97 when I move the cursor over the left column when the page is loading Iduring the load, not after)?

I do not have the need to know why it happend, I know the reason well, and any decent coder will know, as any decent coder will always run IE in debugging mode to avoid to release garbage on the net. But btw us, how can you clain to be top notch for a so specific subject, and be not able to propose a correct and bug free website? So a professional coder will point out javascrit is simply enable to read what is after him in the coding, but only what is before (that's thereason to push the javascript function in the <head> to have read by the browser as soon as.And the same professional coder will tell you before to think about any SEO work on that site, you have better to make it more user friendly and faster to appear ( 36 second with 2 Meg/sec, even by thai mean it's a bit long, and it's well know most of the websurfers dislike to wait).

Look, in 5 lines, I have give you 2 advices, both very technical, that should improve your visibility on the net, improve also your credibility (you should not challenge people when you are not sure at 150%), and certainly save some money on the long run.

http://www.affinitynewmedia.com/services.asp

Do you agree that URL is related to your company website?

If yes, do you agree thsi webiste is the way to show how good and technically skilled your company is?

if you answer yes at both those questions, so I would love to know why I got a javascript error saying object missing line 97 when I move the cursor over the left column when the page is loading Iduring the load, not after)?

I repeat to be sure you understand and can reproduce it . I also precise I use IE 6 with window XP, IE 6 run in allow debugging mode ( you know what I mean, tools>internet option> and 'tutti quanti')

So please first fix your website, or ask someone to do it if you do not know what to do (not me I am busy sorry), and then come back to me ,come back to us. Right now I feel you do not have much credibility (how someone will ask you to do their website if you are no able to realise your own?)

Avery nice place to start to learn about internet :

http://www.w3schools.com/

they have some usual infos about javascript, yes sir?

[techie]

yes you right, I should have read your profile, most impressive, VErisign, Worldpay ... Great. What you did for them? Oooooooooooooops NDA , so you can not precise.

Btw us, some of the largest would mean M$, or Sun microsystem , would be quite an achievement / success to do work for one of those (I hope we can agree Microsoft in one of the biggest company , and Sun is not far behing (Sun = Java in case you are in doubt)). Anyway Verisign, even if it's just the UK branch it's not bad. that is clearly a good start, hope you will improve soon

Sorry i dont know what you are talking about???

I have now read all the info you posted and yes their is no reference in there concerning the top 100 lines or 100k as you said.

In at least 2, namely the tech doc about the spider, and the glossary of tricks, it's stated the spiders do not parse after 101K or 150 K.

Your inability to post a link to this from the links you gave speaks volumes...maybe i am not blind as you stated above......

They advise people to report to the local police those who claim they can push a website hight in the ranking but can not show any legit work.

Say you are not interested if a page take 2 mn to load is bad, really bad. You are running only for the money, not for your work.

Did i say that in my previous post, please read what i have wrote correctly..

I havent got a clue who you are refering to when you mention sunbelt or indo siam, i know not of how they work or of what they do..so it is not fair for me to comment on how they operate.

I like to address technical points, propose technical solutions, you prefer to say your company know best.

Did i?

Btw us, are you aware that is a community, not a IT fair with your stand in the middle?

What are you on about??

To clear this up for you as i can see it has upset you greatly, i have joined this forum for a reason..read my first ever post..

I have not come here to advertise regardless of what you may think, i simply posted on a topic that i thought i could offer advice, if this topic would have been about building houses then i would not have commented...

If you are in any way offended by my comments the simple solutions is just do not read them, my only goal is trying to point out to you that removing php or simular will not make as much difference as some other methods..

Yes i am only new to the forum and i doubt i will be offering any more posts if this is what happens to every member who posts...

In no post have i ever critizised what you do or the way you operate, if you feel you need to comment on clients we have worked for then that is fine (this is a forum) but please if you feel you need to then make it FACTUAL..that is all i ask..

And for your information i am not here to try and seek work, why you believe from what i have posted is beyond me..

I shall not reply to this as it is just nothing to do with the opening post, it is unfair for that member and a waste of time for the forum, and i have no wish to turn this thread into an arguament.

Let it be..

[cdnvic]

Sting01, Techie, your arguement is getting nowhere. Stop beating up on each other or it'll lead to an informative and useful thread getiing shut down. Your points have been stated, now move on.

Now the OP asked a question. Before people start hitting each other with their handbags again, can someone answer him?

cv

[sting01]

Sting01, Techie, your arguement is getting nowhere. Stop beating up on each other or it'll lead to an informative and useful thread getiing shut down. Your points have been stated, now move on.

Now the OP asked a question. Before people start hitting each other with their handbags again, can someone answer him?

cv

I agree it's going nowhere.

Maybe a mod or George himself could delete both posting from I and Techie. It will make the topicclean, and show the answers already made. Those answers are mostly accurate, and give a good idea of what to do.

It's not related about handbags, and I do hope it do not imply I am a queer, a fagg or a ponce. Not techie. The argumentation was related to technical point of view obviously different. Even if I used to be quite agressive and arrogant, I do consider noone used personal attack and do not see the need to start on that.

What did I say? I mostly said IT business is a technical one, who need technical knowledge, I showed even with top level knowledge it's possible to be mislead (techie own website who have residual javascript errors), and it's the same for SEO. Even hightly competents people can NOT promise to success everytime for any pages.

Anyway, for my part I consider I genuily provided technicall advices to the OP, then technical advice on that subject and on the way to build an error free website to techie , so maybe better if I stay concentrate on my wor rather to polluate the forum . But btw us, if really when you use IE 5.5 or 6, when IE is in debugging, and when you browse techie website and get the same error (related to line 97) doing what I describe, if you can reproduce that error, so I do hope it will mean I was not fool/silly/idiot/arrogant to post what I posted, but that I have at least for one point say accurate things. So maybe if I was right one time, I could have be right in some other point.

I am not advertising here, I refuse to work for local, I refuse to work for the expat community. I am not looking for clients from TV. I come sometimes here to help. because 3 years ago I got huge help (accurate infos) from TV (Docteur PAtPong). So people have to read 2 or 3 times my barking post, they also have to read the documents (very basic ones, but well I can not give away my secrets or I will not work at all lol). The most important is the Google document about SEO business (the same exist for MSN also).

Peace Love Kiss Kiss (Ambassador G'KAr in Babylon 5)

[~G~]

Then a search engine will rank : 1) index.html, 2) index.php. If all is equivalent, .html will always be ranked first, because the probability to have a modification a that file are less than with a php.

Sting, I have given several solid examples in one of my previous posts on this thread, of php and asp pages ranked #1 and #2 in Google. There are enough html pages out there that should have been ranked higher, if what you say is correct.

Check google coding or similar, and you will see how the ranking is made.

1. Google founders have gone from nothing to being multi-billioners in a few years. They did not do it by following what "other spiders" are doing.

2. How exactly do you check google coding? You don't really have the source code of Google ranking system, do you?

[~G~]

Now the OP asked a question. Before people start hitting each other with their handbags again, can someone answer him?

Indeed most of the posts here (including mine) involve debates about SEO and not really of "how to find sn efficient SEO consultant".

I do have a link to some list of SEO "experts". However, I am reluctant to post it here since I know for sure that one of those listed there is a fraud.

Edited April 20, 2006 by ~G~

[Crushdepth]

Now the OP asked a question. Before people start hitting each other with their handbags again, can someone answer him?

That is what Thai Visa is all about

[sting01]

Then a search engine will rank : 1) index.html, 2) index.php. If all is equivalent, .html will always be ranked first, because the probability to have a modification a that file are less than with a php.

Sting, I have given several solid examples in one of my previous posts on this thread, of php and asp pages ranked #1 and #2 in Google. There are enough html pages out there that should have been ranked higher, if what you say is correct.

Check google coding or similar, and you will see how the ranking is made.

1. Google founders have gone from nothing to being multi-billioners in a few years. They did not do it by following what "other spiders" are doing.

2. How exactly do you check google coding? You don't really have the source code of Google ranking system, do you?

I do have a part of the old source code (06/05/2003 is written at line #3). Nothing is secret or buried that deep if you know where to search.

Spider is a parser, so basically they are all the same. I repeat the 'magic', mean how each and every search engines are different, is the way they handle the data (first to feed the DB, then to extract the data with a certain order). Spider is a mere parser, or a basic parser + an evoluate behavior given by a set of rules (mostly those rules are the same for all, as proof the robo.txt file you can find in each and every website).

About the php/asp vs html, let say that : www.thaivisa.com/index.html will be ranked higher than www.thaivisa.com/index.php, assuming the index.html is simply made with the html source (the one oyu get when you rightclick). It's so obvious. It's also a specification given by google and MSN, both societies have issued several guides/step by step, I given one link for google, but it's the only one. You have to read them before to say. I do think google engineers or MSN enginers know best, so I repeat what they say (about the 150 K, about the complex url using special characters). You can argue TV is ranked one, but TV is a special case : long time existing, with a pool a devoted people and I am speaking about George who invest energy / life time in this site. So there is reason to be #1, but we are spoken about www.my-site-in-thailand-that-I-wouldlove-to-promote.eu.fr

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?ac...541&qpid=721211

will always have a bad weight

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php will always have a better weight.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.htm will always have also better weight than the 2 previous URL. That is based on Google technical documentation.

If you say the opposite, please do a communication to Google enginers, they are actually looking for seasonned and experienced people for the Asian pacific region. I am sure they will be happy to consider what you have to say, and ceratily they will modify their technical documention to avoid people like I to be misleaded.

Anyway, even if I am stubborn, I have to understand my comments/advices (sic) seems to not please the huge amount of technicall experts and hightly skilled IT engineers present here (still I am wondering how someone can say he know best since years and can only have a website with basic errors, personaly if I was presenting something like to the clients I have, they will show me the way to exit). On the other hand, I did not notice much of technical issues? I wonder why people speak loudly and affirm things, but do not show confirmation. The 101/150 K (that I wrongly confused with lines) is a specification given by google and MSN. Why that specification? It's well know google and Microsoft are both belover of human race and have cached 30 billions of webpages and made them avalaible for free just to please anyone, and there is no technicall reasons to do so appart this love for the human race, and by so the 150 K limit is just to keep the HD not much full and be able to add daily new cached page.

I do believe the 150 K limit exist for perfomance reasons, mean the spider is doing a parsing, regex is CPU consuming, and there is no point to look for a word that is a the bottom of a 200K web page. Because that word will certainly used in a irrelevant context (true for any kind of context).

I do not think it would be wise of me anyway to explain too much, or you will refuse to get my points on the ground you think differently, or worst you will get it clearly, but you will claim in 2 or 3 month you made the discovery by yourself. I simply invite those posters who are seasoned , talented experts in the IT fields since years to read the documentation from google and MSN (it's very basic you will not get headhache I swear), and then take a look to the internal coding of both of them (yes you can find, you just have to search for that). IT will improve your knowledges.

[~G~]

Spider is a parser, so basically they are all the same. I repeat the 'magic', mean how each and every search engines are different, is the way they handle the data (first to feed the DB, then to extract the data with a certain order).

No. the magic is:

a. Get relevant info about the site. This is not merely parsing, backlinks are highly important. In case you don't know, this is the main reason Google is so much better than other search engines.

b. Rate the site according to this information, in a way which will be as close as possible to what the searcher was looking for. Here density of keywords, amount of information, relevance come into play.

If you say the opposite, please do a communication to Google enginers, they are actually looking for seasonned and experienced people for the Asian pacific region.

Really? How much do they pay?

I am sure they will be happy to consider what you have to say, and ceratily they will modify their technical documention to avoid people like I to be misleaded.

All the explanations, documents and articles in the world will not help here, sting, I have given you solid and concrete examples of why you are wrong, and you simply prefer theory over FACTS.

...or worst you will get it clearly, but you will claim in 2 or 3 month you made the discovery by yourself.

[sting01]

Spider is a parser, so basically they are all the same. I repeat the 'magic', mean how each and every search engines are different, is the way they handle the data (first to feed the DB, then to extract the data with a certain order).

No. the magic is:

a. Get relevant info about the site. This is not merely parsing, backlinks are highly important. In case you don't know, this is the main reason Google is so much better than other search engines.

b. Rate the site according to this information, in a way which will be as close as possible to what the searcher was looking for. Here density of keywords, amount of information, relevance come into play.

If you say the opposite, please do a communication to Google enginers, they are actually looking for seasonned and experienced people for the Asian pacific region.

Really? How much do they pay?

I am sure they will be happy to consider what you have to say, and ceratily they will modify their technical documention to avoid people like I to be misleaded.

All the explanations, documents and articles in the world will not help here, sting, I have given you solid and concrete examples of why you are wrong, and you simply prefer theory over FACTS.

...or worst you will get it clearly, but you will claim in 2 or 3 month you made the discovery by yourself.

Unsure, I am in doubt ... What mean " Get relevant info about the site. " and "backlinks are highly important". Can you please teach me how a search engine does that? I was supposing, but I can be wrong, they used the source to find how relevant a keyword was, how many keywords were in the Meta .... Technically, I do not know any other solution than check the source of a page to get those infos. I f I wrong please , correct me!

So assuming they use the source of the page (by browsing automatically with a spider), how they use it? Maybe the word 'parsing' is misused by me, and competent IT engineers use another word to name/describe the fact to have a program that read a file, and look at some places for some string of characters (characters stand for both a,b,c,.... 1,2,3,....ASCII, HEX ...). For me it's called 'parsing'. Anyway if I wrongly use the word, I hope you will agree with the process. I really hope, or it mean I am really crazed.

"

Rate the site according to this information, in a way which will be as close as possible to what the searcher was looking for. Here density of keywords, amount of information, relevance come into play. "

Right, did I said something different? I said that is processed inside google, not outside, and so or you know how google do and so you can prepare your page to fit that , or you do not know and have to guess how it will behave.I do not see what you teach us in more here. Well, I learned density of keywords, and relevance, they were not in my english knowledge. But appart give the correct naming, they change nothing to the proess and we both agree (I do agree) on that process. Maybe the non agreement is how to have an insight on the process. Process is not theory but fact, do you agree on that point?

Let's talk about fact then :

I stated the following :

1) to avoid a BAD ranking, the page must be well formed. IF ther is problem to IE or FF to get your page, it will be problem for any spider to do so. It's evident, obvious, it's also on the basic documentation. I do understand you discarded the documentation from google or from MSN, I am silly but I like to think those who wrote the doc as they are also those who made the programms know at least correctly what they are talking about.

The only answers I got about well formed page was to hear the W3C recommendations were useless. Well, should I comment? It's like to hear a coder pretending the RFC are shit documents. That is the usual jokes when we meet to issue new RFC. RFC stand for Request For Comment incase you did not know, and they are issued by the IETF.

2) avoid full page in flash, full website in flash. Well, there is way to open (decompacter, decompacting?) a .swf, I do that daily. But it's a bit CPU intensive, and the fact to use that with a spider it's more a ugly corner hack than anything. And it's not used by any searchengine. So what is inside a .swf is not recognised by a spider (dito google documentation and MSN documentation). I do agree the URL will still exist and can be add to the search engine DB, but the relevancy calculation will be not accurate.

3) I also stated the serach engine (MSN, Google, AskJeeves ....) are website connected to a DB. One thing that is secret is how big is Google cluster, and how many DB they use, but basically that is a website + a DB. Google amongst the last 3 years released some corporate appliance with a 'google light' inside. I do suppose well informed IT specialistes as the 2 other posters have knowledge of that and have already checked those appliances. They basically stock path to documents and give them a rank when you are searching for a file (my_selling_sheet.xls for exemple). Made and sold by Google, it must certainly mean they use a soft inside that is based on google.com. Am I right? And if yes, why not have take a look at it to have a better overview on how google work? Did you?

Still talking about facts : Google and MSN have issued notice and documentations. Why do so if it's not to help people for the referencing? Why help people? Well, a direcotry or a search engine that is popular is in fact a huge milkcow, so more people are referenced in my DB, more accurate is my Db, more visitors I will have (the visitors create the money because I can sell advertising). So I have to have the website owners who ask for referencing. So the referencing must be easy, and the maintenance of the referencing must be automatic and also easy. The best is to teach the website owner what the spider is looking for, so like that all will be smooth. So documentation are not theory, but fact. The corner stone in fact.

[~G~]

Spider is a parser, so basically they are all the same. I repeat the 'magic', mean how each and every search engines are different, is the way they handle the data (first to feed the DB, then to extract the data with a certain order).

No. the magic is:

a. Get relevant info about the site. This is not merely parsing, backlinks are highly important. In case you don't know, this is the main reason Google is so much better than other search engines.

b. Rate the site according to this information, in a way which will be as close as possible to what the searcher was looking for. Here density of keywords, amount of information, relevance come into play.

If you say the opposite, please do a communication to Google enginers, they are actually looking for seasonned and experienced people for the Asian pacific region.

Really? How much do they pay?

I am sure they will be happy to consider what you have to say, and ceratily they will modify their technical documention to avoid people like I to be misleaded.

All the explanations, documents and articles in the world will not help here, sting, I have given you solid and concrete examples of why you are wrong, and you simply prefer theory over FACTS.

...or worst you will get it clearly, but you will claim in 2 or 3 month you made the discovery by yourself.

Unsure, I am in doubt ... What mean " Get relevant info about the site. " and "backlinks are highly important". Can you please teach me how a search engine does that? I was supposing, but I can be wrong, they used the source to find how relevant a keyword was, how many keywords were in the Meta .... Technically, I do not know any other solution than check the source of a page to get those infos. I f I wrong please , correct me!

So assuming they use the source of the page (by browsing automatically with a spider), how they use it? Maybe the word 'parsing' is misused by me, and competent IT engineers use another word to name/describe the fact to have a program that read a file, and look at some places for some string of characters (characters stand for both a,b,c,.... 1,2,3,....ASCII, HEX ...). For me it's called 'parsing'. Anyway if I wrongly use the word, I hope you will agree with the process. I really hope, or it mean I am really crazed.

"

Rate the site according to this information, in a way which will be as close as possible to what the searcher was looking for. Here density of keywords, amount of information, relevance come into play. "

Right, did I said something different? I said that is processed inside google, not outside, and so or you know how google do and so you can prepare your page to fit that , or you do not know and have to guess how it will behave.I do not see what you teach us in more here. Well, I learned density of keywords, and relevance, they were not in my english knowledge. But appart give the correct naming, they change nothing to the proess and we both agree (I do agree) on that process. Maybe the non agreement is how to have an insight on the process. Process is not theory but fact, do you agree on that point?

Let's talk about fact then :

I stated the following :

1) to avoid a BAD ranking, the page must be well formed. IF ther is problem to IE or FF to get your page, it will be problem for any spider to do so. It's evident, obvious, it's also on the basic documentation. I do understand you discarded the documentation from google or from MSN, I am silly but I like to think those who wrote the doc as they are also those who made the programms know at least correctly what they are talking about.

The only answers I got about well formed page was to hear the W3C recommendations were useless. Well, should I comment? It's like to hear a coder pretending the RFC are shit documents. That is the usual jokes when we meet to issue new RFC. RFC stand for Request For Comment incase you did not know, and they are issued by the IETF.

2) avoid full page in flash, full website in flash. Well, there is way to open (decompacter, decompacting?) a .swf, I do that daily. But it's a bit CPU intensive, and the fact to use that with a spider it's more a ugly corner hack than anything. And it's not used by any searchengine. So what is inside a .swf is not recognised by a spider (dito google documentation and MSN documentation). I do agree the URL will still exist and can be add to the search engine DB, but the relevancy calculation will be not accurate.

3) I also stated the serach engine (MSN, Google, AskJeeves ....) are website connected to a DB. One thing that is secret is how big is Google cluster, and how many DB they use, but basically that is a website + a DB. Google amongst the last 3 years released some corporate appliance with a 'google light' inside. I do suppose well informed IT specialistes as the 2 other posters have knowledge of that and have already checked those appliances. They basically stock path to documents and give them a rank when you are searching for a file (my_selling_sheet.xls for exemple). Made and sold by Google, it must certainly mean they use a soft inside that is based on google.com. Am I right? And if yes, why not have take a look at it to have a better overview on how google work? Did you?

Still talking about facts : Google and MSN have issued notice and documentations. Why do so if it's not to help people for the referencing? Why help people? Well, a direcotry or a search engine that is popular is in fact a huge milkcow, so more people are referenced in my DB, more accurate is my Db, more visitors I will have (the visitors create the money because I can sell advertising). So I have to have the website owners who ask for referencing. So the referencing must be easy, and the maintenance of the referencing must be automatic and also easy. The best is to teach the website owner what the spider is looking for, so like that all will be smooth. So documentation are not theory, but fact. The corner stone in fact.

Sting, I find difficult to read such long posts, I am really sorry. I scanned through it and have a few points -

1. Google will not show you how they work. If they did, anyone with big enough storage space will do exactly the same.

2. By facts I mean the actual rating of page X over Y, as we can all see when we search for a combination. Not what stated, even in the most formal documents. Did you consider that even if it was 100% correct at time of writing, Google have to continously change in response to the technologies, SEO tactics, etc?

3. We have some disagreement, let's finish by saying that. You will not convince me until you can show me the actual source code of the rating algorithm running in google in this very minute, which I doubt if your can do. I will not convince you for whatever other reasons. I am aware that you are experienced and very knowledgable in IT, I respect that, still I disagree in some points. Well, we cannot agree on everthing.

Edited April 20, 2006 by ~G~

[deve8]

Okay have been reading all the answers on this forum about SEO, and as per usual everyone gets side tracked with endless amounts of bull**** and I havent really read anything from anyone that has a real clue.

I have been building and marketing my own adult sites on the web for 8 years. I work full time on the web and I make 100% of my income from my sites and have done so for the last 8 years. I make enough from my sites to travel with my wife and kids to just about wherever I want and I take my work with me. 90% of my traffic comes from search engines. All my sites rank in position #1 at google for every search term I want, so I know a little about what is going on here.

Here are 10 clues to make your site work, obviously there are more, but these are the best things you can do:

1/. Pay for a listing at Yahoo and submit to as many free search engines and directories you can find

2/. DO NOT pay for anything at google, it is a total waste of time and money.

3/. Submit your site to DMOZ every 6 weeks until you are listed

4/. Make sure you have good quality and quantity content that is slightly different from your main competitors. Text not images.

5/. Work hard and get yourself as many good quality inbound and outbound links with relevant anchor text as you can and make sure they are relevant to the content of your site. DO NOT link irrelevant sites.

6/. Relevant title, meta keyword and meta description tags are very important, don't let anyone tell you different (in most cases google uses your meta description tag as your sites description, I cant believe when people say that meta tags are worthless) Title 15 words, meta description 30 descriptive and well contructed words and meta keywords and phrases as many as are relevant to the content of your page. DO NOT add keywords that do not appear on your page and DO spend time to get these right.

7/. Stay as far away from java, php, asp, flash etc as you possible can. Two reasons, half the search egines cant or wont read them and a large percentage of the web browsers people use wont read them either) Stick to plain html wherever possible

8/. DONT under any circumstance use any tricks, these will get you banned eventually.

9/. Update your site as often as is reasonably possible. A monthly News page works well

10/. Build 5 or 6 relevant pages around your best keywords (DO NOT SPAM) and link to them from your first page

If you want to use this info I wish you all the best, and if you want to argue, I'm not listening...

[Loaded]

Okay have been reading all the answers on this forum about SEO, and as per usual everyone gets side tracked with endless amounts of bull**** and I havent really read anything from anyone that has a real clue.

I have been building and marketing my own adult sites on the web for 8 years. I work full time on the web and I make 100% of my income from my sites and have done so for the last 8 years. I make enough from my sites to travel with my wife and kids to just about wherever I want and I take my work with me. 90% of my traffic comes from search engines. All my sites rank in position #1 at google for every search term I want, so I know a little about what is going on here.

Here are 10 clues to make your site work, obviously there are more, but these are the best things you can do:

1/. Pay for a listing at Yahoo and submit to as many free search engines and directories you can find

2/. DO NOT pay for anything at google, it is a total waste of time and money.

3/. Submit your site to DMOZ every 6 weeks until you are listed

4/. Make sure you have good quality and quantity content that is slightly different from your main competitors. Text not images.

5/. Work hard and get yourself as many good quality inbound and outbound links with relevant anchor text as you can and make sure they are relevant to the content of your site. DO NOT link irrelevant sites.

6/. Relevant title, meta keyword and meta description tags are very important, don't let anyone tell you different (in most cases google uses your meta description tag as your sites description, I cant believe when people say that meta tags are worthless) Title 15 words, meta description 30 descriptive and well contructed words and meta keywords and phrases as many as are relevant to the content of your page. DO NOT add keywords that do not appear on your page and DO spend time to get these right.

7/. Stay as far away from java, php, asp, flash etc as you possible can. Two reasons, half the search egines cant or wont read them and a large percentage of the web browsers people use wont read them either) Stick to plain html wherever possible

8/. DONT under any circumstance use any tricks, these will get you banned eventually.

9/. Update your site as often as is reasonably possible. A monthly News page works well

10/. Build 5 or 6 relevant pages around your best keywords (DO NOT SPAM) and link to them from your first page

If you want to use this info I wish you all the best, and if you want to argue, I'm not listening...

Thanks all for your input. As a fairly inexperienced computer person a lot of the technical stuff flew straight over my head but thanks for your time and knowledge.

I like deve8's summary as I understand most of what he's saying.

I've experimented with the meta title, meta keywords and keyword density in the title and first couple of paragraphs and it produces results. On Yahoo I can now get the 4th listing for a very common phrase used by people looking for my service. I also have 6th place through my link on another site.

Also found an easy way to change source without having to use dreamweaver or any other software.

cheers all.