Dual Nationality

[Mossfinn]

Hi every one,

I am in the process of registering my wife and step-daughter with British citizenship and am wondering whether this will compromise her Thai Nationality.

Does Thailand recognise Dual nationality because I have seen differing reports, some say yes others say no.

Any ideas

Regards

Moss

[samran]

No problems whatsoever and no rights etc are taken away.

Many members of this site have wives, children and husbands with two passports. A few members also have both as well

Do a search on this site and you'll see many posts on this topic.

Main thing to remember is to travel in and out of Thailand on the Thai PP's and to the rest of the world on the Brit PP.

[GU22]

Yep, neither Thailand nor the UK have a problem with dual nationality, so go for it and don't worry.

[Mossfinn]

Thanks samran & GU22

I am new to the site only found it on a search yesterday, will look on past posts, but thanks for very prompt replies.

Thanks, again

Moss

[goodguy]

In trying to register your wife and step-daughter, which form did you use? I was unaware that you could register your wife besides your step-daughter. Have they already lived in the UK?

[Mossfinn]

Hi Goodguy,

I am using form AN (NEW).

I presume this is new from the rule changes of Nov 05 where applicants have to take a Citizenship test.

I believe you are right there used to be a separate form for children called an MN1 but the new form incorporates it.

To answer your question my wife has been in the UK for 5 years and my step-daughter for 30 months, so still not sure if this will turn out OK as she has not been here for three years, but perhaps it will work out.

Thanks

Moss

[the scouser]

It could be that Mossfin's wife has applied for naturalisation and his step-daughter for registration.

Scouse.

Edit:

I've just seen Mossfinn's response and, judging by his description of the forms he's filled in, then, yes his wife has applied for naturalisation and the step-daughter registration.

[Mossfinn]

Hi Scouser,

Just checked the form, the wifes form definately states naturalisation as a British Citizen and the words used in the children section is called 'register as British citizen', so I think you are right.

Regards

Moss

[GU22]

Minors under 18 cannot become naturalised as British citizens. However they can be registered as such. To all intents and purposes it is the same.

If a child is registering at the same time as a parent is applying for naturalisation then they do so on the same form as their parent. A child does not have to take the 'Life in the UK' test nor prove their English ability. Neither do they have to swear the oath.

[Mossfinn]

Thanks for that GU22 and everybody for their advice,

I was about to put my dunces cap on and ask what the difference is between residency and naturalisation, but you have answered this already, so thanks for that.

Can I ask one more quesion?

My step-daughter wishes to do a years study in Thailand when she finishes her GCSE's in June and then come back for further study here after that.

Does the same rules for cumulation of days residency in any one year apply for children/students as they do for adults as stated in the AN (NEW) forms and will it be a nightmare or just impossible to get her back to stay.

Thanks for any advice.

Regards

Moss

[vinny]

To answer your question my wife has been in the UK for 5 years and my step-daughter for 30 months, so still not sure if this will turn out OK as she has not been here for three years, but perhaps it will work out.

Moss

Your wife has been in the UK for over 3 years and your step-daughter has been in the UK for over 2 years. Provided your wife passes the citizenship test, then they both may apply for citizenships now. The minimum residence requirement for your wife is 3 years, but for children aged 13 or over, it is only 2 years. See Registration of any minor, Residence in the UK, sections 9.15.16 onwards.

Edited April 9, 2006 by vinny

[the scouser]

Does the same rules for cumulation of days residency in any one year apply for children/students as they do for adults as stated in the AN (NEW) forms and will it be a nightmare or just impossible to get her back to stay.

No, there's no requirement for the applicant to have spent x number of days in the UK in any given year prior to registration.

However, your step-daughter's current immigration status is relevant. Does she have indefinite leave to enter/remain in the UK endorsed in her Thai passport? If so, she can spend up to 2 years outside of the country and still qualify for re-admission without having to obtain another visa. If she does not have indefinite leave, it is unlikely that they will allow her registration as a Brit. cit. and should she be outside of the UK when her current leave lapses, she would require a visa to get back in.

Scouse.

[Mossfinn]

Thanks again for all replies and advice, I was a little confident about getting Brit. Cit. for both but am not so sure now although mother has ind. leave. the daughter only has a visa to visit mother, so Brit Cit. will be refused and we will continue to have to get a visa whilst she studies next year.

I was hoping to get Brit. Cit processed at least before she left for Thailand and would be granted before she was due to return to UK.

Oh Well!!

Thanks again for help and advice,

Moss

[the scouser]

Mossfinn,

I'm on my way out, so have to be quick, but if your step-daughter is under 18 she can apply for a settlement visa to join her mother. Should she successfully get this, she can then attend a state school for free.

Sorry about the registration, but if she's here on a visit visa, I'd say her chances of getting registration are slim because she is subject to immigration control. It would be perverse of the Home Office to grant someone British citizenship when they have only a temporary status in the country.

All the best,

Scouse.

[vinny]

See also Registration of any minor, under Conditions of stay, (9.15.25 to 9.15.28). It may still be possible for your step-daughter to be registered as a UK citizen even though she does not have ILR.

Conditions of stay

9.15.25 We should normally expect a minor to be free of conditions of stay because the future of a child whose stay is restricted does not clearly lie here (see 9.15.2). Registering a minor who is on conditions has the effect of cancelling their conditions because, on becoming a British citizen, the minor would cease to be subject to immigration control.

9.15.26 We should therefore normally refuse an application for the registration of a minor whose stay in the United Kingdom is restricted to a specific period.

9.15.27 But if one or both parents are British citizens who have come to the United Kingdom to live permanently, then this may be less important, if:

a. the minor meets the other normal criteria for registration set out in 9.15; and

b. the parents meet the criteria set out in 9.15.9-13 above, then we should consider whether registration would be appropriate.

9.15.28 If the minor is on restrictions but otherwise meets the normal criteria for registration, we should consult the relevant immigration CMU to see if they wish to remove restrictions. If they do not, we should consider their reasons before deciding whether to approve or refuse registration.

My step-daughter wishes to do a years study in Thailand when she finishes her GCSE's in June and then come back for further study here after that.

Is your step daughter in the UK on a student visa?

Does your wife have the day to day responsibility for the child?

Does your wife have sole custody of her daughter?

I'm just wondering why your step-daughter's immigration status was not in line with her mother's when she first came to the UK 30 months ago.

[GU22]

To answer your question my wife has been in the UK for 5 years and my step-daughter for 30 months,

the daughter only has a visa to visit mother

I'm confused.

If your daughter is here with a visit visa, how come she has been here for 30 months?

It is highly unlikely that she would be able to apply for citizenship at the same time as her mother because, as Scouse says, applicants have to be free from immigration restrictions. She will definitely not be registered as British if she has overstayed a visit visa for the last 24 months!

Please clarify her immigration status so that we can advise you on how to proceed.

[Mossfinn]

See also Registration of any minor, under Conditions of stay, (9.15.25 to 9.15.28). It may still be possible for your step-daughter to be registered as a UK citizen even though she does not have ILR.

Conditions of stay

9.15.25 We should normally expect a minor to be free of conditions of stay because the future of a child whose stay is restricted does not clearly lie here (see 9.15.2). Registering a minor who is on conditions has the effect of cancelling their conditions because, on becoming a British citizen, the minor would cease to be subject to immigration control.

9.15.26 We should therefore normally refuse an application for the registration of a minor whose stay in the United Kingdom is restricted to a specific period.

9.15.27 But if one or both parents are British citizens who have come to the United Kingdom to live permanently, then this may be less important, if:

a. the minor meets the other normal criteria for registration set out in 9.15; and

b. the parents meet the criteria set out in 9.15.9-13 above, then we should consider whether registration would be appropriate.

9.15.28 If the minor is on restrictions but otherwise meets the normal criteria for registration, we should consult the relevant immigration CMU to see if they wish to remove restrictions. If they do not, we should consider their reasons before deciding whether to approve or refuse registration.

My step-daughter wishes to do a years study in Thailand when she finishes her GCSE's in June and then come back for further study here after that.

Is your step daughter in the UK on a student visa? No, on a Visit to join mother

Does your wife have the day to day responsibility for the child? Absolutely

Does your wife have sole custody of her daughter? Absolutely

I'm just wondering why your step-daughter's immigration status was not in line with her mother's when she first came to the UK 30 months ago. Unsure of this, except the Mother has been here for 5 years and 2 years before the daughter actually didnot come even though a visa had been granted.

Perhaps they were covering their options?

Regards

Moss

[Mossfinn]

Hello All,

You are all putting in an inordinate amount of time on this, mainly due to my ignorance, for that I am very grateful.

Regards

Moss

[the scouser]

Hi Mossfinn,

Things are a little clearer. When your step-daughter arrived in the UK, was there any date on the visa by which she had to leave the UK (it'll say something like leave to enter until (date))? If so, has she since been granted an extension by the Home Office? Alternatively, did the visa grant your step-daughter indefinite leave to enter the UK?

If the former, then what is the time limit on the current endorsement in her passport? If the latter, then she has indefinite leave to enter and can freely come and go to Thailand as long as she doesn't spend more than 2 years outside of the UK. Additionally, she might well then qualify for registration as a Brit. cit.

Cheers,

Scouse.

[Mossfinn]

Hi Mossfinn,

Things are a little clearer. When your step-daughter arrived in the UK, was there any date on the visa by which she had to leave the UK (it'll say something like leave to enter until (date))? If so, has she since been granted an extension by the Home Office? Alternatively, did the visa grant your step-daughter indefinite leave to enter the UK?

If the former, then what is the time limit on the current endorsement in her passport? If the latter, then she has indefinite leave to enter and can freely come and go to Thailand as long as she doesn't spend more than 2 years outside of the UK. Additionally, she might well then qualify for registration as a Brit. cit.

Cheers,

Scouse.

Hello Scouser

The visa is an Entry Clearance, with a valid until date of 10/04/07, this date simply corresponds with the date the passport needs to be re-newed.

There has been no extension and there is no indication of an indefinate leave stamp.

Thanks

Moss

[the scouser]

Mossfinn,

It would seem that the visa grants your step-daughter indefinite leave, but I can't be 100% sure without sight of it. If, at the time of your step-daughter's settlement visa application, your wife was the proud possessor of such leave, then her daughter should have been granted the same automatically.

I wouldn't seek to cajole you into posting an image of the visa against your will, but if you were willing either to do so, or e-mail me a copy, I would be happy to have a look at it.

Scouse.

[Mossfinn]

Thanks for that Scouse

I have no problem in doing either, as soon as I work out how to do it, I will do one or the other.

Thanks

Moss

[vinny]

Subject to Scouse's confirmation, it does look likely that your step-daughter's immigration status is in line with her mother's. If this in indeed the case, then there should be no problems for her to be included in her mother's AN (NEW) naturalisation application form.

[Mossfinn]

Hi Scouse,

I havn't forgotten, I will almost certainly post or e-mail tomorrow a copy of the visa.

The problem being I am not at work at the moment, as an aside, I have actually caught TB, but not in Thailand over a period of many visits, but in Oxford.

Its hardly comprehensible.

All the checks that they do at airports from certain areas and I catch it on the streets of Oxford.

Anyway thanks for your help I'll send tomorrow.

Moss

[roamer]

I am not throwing a spanner in the works here, but after experiencing a cock up in a similar situation thought I would add the following. My daughter was granted a settlement visa. The problem was that it had a stated period of validity of one year. Now according to the Embassy that was the period it had to be first used by, NOT the period for which it was valid. Well scuse me for being a doubting Thomas but I saw problems ahead.

On a trip back to Thailand we had great difficulty in exiting as the visa appeared to have expired. The only thing that got us on the plane was a sheaf of correspondence from my MP and the Home Office stating that my daughter had the right to enter the UK. Now this had come about because anticipating the problem I had entered into correspondence with them asking why she could not have a "leave to remain" stamp as my wife had in order to clarify things. The answer was that they did not issue these to children and that my daughters stamp was correct.

Oh really ?? Well not according to the chief immigration offier at Gatwick who queried the Home Office computer about it. He fully accepted my daughter had the right to be here but warned us about travelling abroad on that stamp as he thought we were extremely lucky to have been allowed boarding in Thailand.

Now from reading the above it would actually seem the correct stamp is in your stepdaughters passport, it can't be a leave to remain stamp but its of a duration for the length of the passport validity.

I'm sure that for the purposes of registering your stepdaughter as a British Citizen she is free of immigration control.

I might add that we applied last November anticpating a lenghty wait, TEN DAYS later we were informed both had been granted !!

So of course now we are making plans to return to LOS......

Good Luck.

PS. If I've puzzled anyone by useing the term "my daughter" I did mean stepdaughter for legal purposes , in all other senses I think of her as my daughter.

[Mossfinn]

Hi Roamer,

Thanks for the reply, I also can forsee problems ahead and this is the reason for requesting help on this forum and recieved considerable replies.

I am trying to send a copy of the stamp to Scouse so he can see it, but its good to hear that under 18's do not recieve ILM stamps but this will as you have stated will lead to confusion.

No confusion about the use of daughter/step-daughter, I call my step-daughter, daughter as a matter of course but for this forum used step-daughter for clarity purposes only.

Also good to hear about the speed of response, 10 days, I am not taking the chance and having the passports endorsed by a solicitor and not sending the originals, but it might not matter what I do until I get this whole stamp thing cleared up.

Regards

Moss

[vinny]

My daughter was granted a settlement visa. The problem was that it had a stated period of validity of one year.

I have seen one child Entry Clearance:

Number of entries: MULT

type: visa settlement to join parent(s);

Obsrv: Indefinite leave to enter the UK;

period of validity: 10 years.

Perhaps this was to prevent possible future problems with airlines.

Also good to hear about the speed of response, 10 days, I am not taking the chance and having the passports endorsed by a solicitor and not sending the originals, but it might not matter what I do until I get this whole stamp thing cleared up.

You can also use the Nationality Checking Service.

For a small fee,participating councils will check that applications are completed correctly and have been submitted with all the necessary supporting documents and the correct fee. They will photocopy and certify valuable documents such as passports and will send the applications to the Home Office by special delivery post. Complete applications can be dealt with more quickly than those that are incomplete. Those using the service will be able to keep their passports rather than sending them to the Home Office.

[roamer]

My daughter was granted a settlement visa. The problem was that it had a stated period of validity of one year.

I have seen one child Entry Clearance:

Number of entries: MULT

type: visa settlement to join parent(s);

Obsrv: Indefinite leave to enter the UK;

period of validity: 10 years.

Perhaps this was to prevent possible future problems with airlines.

Also good to hear about the speed of response, 10 days, I am not taking the chance and having the passports endorsed by a solicitor and not sending the originals, but it might not matter what I do until I get this whole stamp thing cleared up.

You can also use the Nationality Checking Service.

For a small fee,participating councils will check that applications are completed correctly and have been submitted with all the necessary supporting documents and the correct fee. They will photocopy and certify valuable documents such as passports and will send the applications to the Home Office by special delivery post. Complete applications can be dealt with more quickly than those that are incomplete. Those using the service will be able to keep their passports rather than sending them to the Home Office.

CLICK THIS TO ENLARGE

Thanks for that Vnnie. Got me to dig out the original visa, its validity period was for 2 years rather than 1 as I remembered and before you ask the passport continued to be valid past that date. Now although the home office insisted it was valid you can imagine that any airline check-in person automatically checks to see the period of validity of a visa. If you are trying to travel outside the period of that validity expect a long arguement and often refusal to board. The "multi" and "indefinate leave to enter" mean very little compared to the validity dates. As you stated you saw one with a 10 year validity, that would make sense. However Home Office ruled this was valid even when it was past its validity date. As I mentioned earlier, immigration at Gatwick (spotted by first official, went up to chief) disagreed.

Despite this the Home Office stuck to their guns, my original query got a response by a nobody but my MPs query was answered by a high up official. Thank god we now have British passports.

On the other point about application form checking we also went this route and it has a lot to reccomend it. Although its not supposed to make it faster than doing it yourself (errors excepted) I can only point to the 10 day turnaround in our case. I think what happens in reality is that the straightforward apps simply get fastracked.

Worth it though just to hang on to your docs.

Edited April 14, 2006 by roamer

[the scouser]

Roamer,

Once someone has indefinite leave, it can only be withdrawn in very limited circumstances, so providing that your step-daughter doesn't spend more than 2 years outside of the UK, she will continue to have it even though the visa itself may have expired.

Having said that, your point about airline check-in staff is totally valid. Their primary concern is that if they carry a passenger who is improperly documented the airline will be fined. They can't be expected to know the UK immigration laws inside out and all they see is an expired visa.

By the way, you forgot to conceal your step-daughter's year of birth and passport number from the coding at the bottom of the visa.

Scouse.

[roamer]

Thanks Scouser, that was very much my point, that its not what is correct that matters but what appears to be correct, or incorrect in this matter to people like airline staff. Point noted about the passport .