UK Family Visit Visa refused

[Bill Sykes]

Hi

First post, but long-term lurker.

My partner has just had a UK Family Visit visa refused. It appears that she no longer has the right of appeal.

I was rather hoping for some advice on what to do next. I'm currently at work, and will check what Paragraph 41 is when I get home in a few hours.

Cheers

Bill

Here is ... The Decision

You state in your application form that you wish to visit your civil partner's family in the United Kingdom, for a
period of 4 to 5 months. I am aware that you applied for visit visa's (sic) in 2011 and 2012 with the same sponsor.
In reaching my decision I have referred to your previous visa applications and the supporting statements provided by
you. I acknowledge the importance of maintaining family contact and I have considered all aspects of your
application and on a balance of probabilities I am not satisfied that you meet the requirements of paragraph 41.

You stated in both your previous applications that you intended to be in the United Kingdom for a period of 3 to 4
weeks and the second application for a period of one month. However, on both trips you have remained in the United
Kingdom for a period of 5 months, for which no credible explanation has been forthcoming. This leads me to question
your reason for travelling to the UK. In light of this I am not satisfied on a balance of probabilities that you are
genuinely seeking entry to the United Kingdom as a visitor, and that you intend to leave the United Kingdom at the
end of the period of the visit and that you do not (?) intend to live for extended periods in the United Kingdom
through frequent or successive visits. Paragraph 41 (i) and (ii).

I have therefore refused your application because I am not satisfied, on the balance of probabilities, that you meet
the requirements of the relevant Paragraph of the United Kingdom Immigration Rules.
Your right of appeal is limited to the grounds referred to in section 84(1)© of the Nationality, Immigration and
Asylum Act 2002.

[norrona]

'You stated in both your previous applications that you intended to be in the United Kingdom for a period of 3 to 4
weeks and the second application for a period of one month. However, on both trips you have remained in the United
Kingdom for a period of 5 months, for which no credible explanation has been forthcoming.'

I am no expert but the above pretty much explains it to be fair, What was the reasons for staying longer than intended as that needs to be explained in your next application?

[7by7]

Staying longer in the UK as a visitor for longer than stated in the application is not against the rules; as long as the visitor leaves before their visa expires.

However, as this refusal notice shows, it can damage the applicant's credibility unless satisfactorily explained in their next application. Especially if in the first application the applicant said they had to return home for work or similar.

You say that you are partners, and the refusal refers to her as your civil partner. Have you actually entered into a civil partnership or same sex marriage (though not in Thailand as they are not legal there)?

Where do you live? In Thailand with her or in the UK?

If in the UK then I can see the ECO's point. Did you or she explain in the application why you live apart and why she does not wish to live in the UK with you, her civil partner?

If in Thailand, what evidence did you supply to show this?

Paragraph 41 of the immigration rules.

As you rightly say, family visit refusals can no longer be appealed; but you can submit a new application. However, unless you satisfactorily deal with the ECOs concerns she will only be refused again.

Edited July 31, 2013 by 7by7

[Bill Sykes]

Hi, and thanks for both replies.

norrona: Fair point, well made. Please see my more detailed reply to 7by7 (who I was really hoping would reply).

7by7: Tried to work this into a quote of your response, but wasn't sure how to without breaking the rules about editing a quote, so I've done it like this (hope that's OK).

Staying longer in the UK as a visitor for longer than stated in the application is not against the rules; as long as the visitor leaves before their visa expires.

That was my understanding from both the form, the guidance, casual advice from the embassy (nice lady upstairs in the consular section that has something to do with visas ... sorry, it was a while ago) and from immigration at LHR.

However, as this refusal notice shows, it can damage the applicant's credibility unless satisfactorily explained in their next application. Especially if in the first application the applicant said they had to return home for work or similar.

I didn't realise my partner needed to explain as long as she came back within the allotted period. In light of this refusal, and re-reading Paragraph 41, I think I can see where I cocked up.

You say that you are partners, and the refusal refers to her as your civil partner. Have you actually entered into a civil partnership or same sex marriage (though not in Thailand as they are not legal there)?

Where do you live? In Thailand with her or in the UK?

If in the UK then I can see the ECO's point. Did you or she explain in the application why you live apart and why she does not wish to live in the UK with you, her civil partner?

If in Thailand, what evidence did you supply to show this?

UK Civil Partnership for three-and-a-half years (at UK embassy in Vietnam, not even a visit back to the UK). Proof of continued cohabitation in Thailand for nine-and-a-half years. She owns her own house in central Bangkok. She provided proof of my continued employment in Bangkok (bank statements, payslips, letter from employer, etc) pictures of both of us dating back almost 10 years with various family members (Thai and English), friends visiting over the years, etc, etc. Basically the same evidence she supplied for a Kiwi visa and two UK visas (but updated).

As you rightly say, family visit refusals can no longer be appealed; but you can submit a new application. However, unless you satisfactorily deal with the ECOs concerns she will only be refused again.

Silly question, I may be a bit thick, but how do I do this ... exactly?

Both previous UK visits, I've explained the problem to immigration at LHR: ''We're here primarily to visit my father. Not quite sure how long for. May be three to four weeks. Depends if/when he sells his home. May be six months. I'll be back off to Thailand to earn a crust and pay for the missus, she'll look after my dad, see her friends ... and then bugger off to Scotland for New Year to see snow for the first time. I'll try to get back, but she won't have recourse to public funds.''

Both times immigration at LHR have said something along the lines of: ''Don't worry. I'll put down a month. As long as she leaves within 180 days it's all good.''

Any and all help/advice gratefully received.

TIA

Bill

EDIT: PS Given the costs, would it make any difference (good or bad) if she applied for a normal holiday visa vs a family visit?

Edited July 31, 2013 by Bill Sykes

[7by7]

From your further details, it does seem that this refusal is somewhat unreasonable; being based purely on her staying longer than originally stated in her last application.

Whilst she cannot appeal, I believe it may still be possible to ask the Entry Clearance Manager to review the refusal and consider overturning it; hopefully TVE or Tony M can confirm?

If this is possible then you should explain why she stayed longer than originally stated on her previous applications and how she was able to do so.

Other than that, all I can advise is that she applies again.

In this application as well as again providing all the evidence of your status in Thailand and that you live there with her, you should also fully explain why she stayed in the UK for longer than originally stated on her previous visits and how she was able to do so.

Edit:

Did it really take me 9 minutes to type the above?

If she is travelling to the UK to visit family, she should apply for a family visit; but essentially it wont make much difference; especially considering the reason for this refusal.

Edited July 31, 2013 by 7by7

[bobrussell]

You have put a perfectly reasonable explanation for the previous visits on this thread perhaps if that had been included the visa may have been approved. The only thing you can do is to contact the Embassy to see if they will accept this and reconsider. Clearly with the loss of appeal they may well just tell you to re-apply.

If you are in a hurry then I can't see what more you can do than reapply anyway. Not sure a standard visa will be any different (perhaps worse). 5 months is a long holiday!

It does sound as if the ECO is pushing his/her luck on this one as the applicant has complied under the terms of the previous visas.

[Bill Sykes]

Hi

Thanks so much for your help. I'll wait to see what others add.

Would contacting the Entry Clearance Manager be in any way detrimental to future visa applications?

Cheers

Bill

[ThaiVisaExpress]

A couple of questions:

Why didn't you put a stay "of up to 4 months, or 5 months", or whatever ? You also should really have explained why the applicant stayed longer on the last visits, and that may well have satisfied the ECO.

How long has she spent in the UK in the last 2 years ? The ECO has made the point that he has concerns that you are are abusing the visit visas by actually using the visits to reside in the UK. I would have though that 3 to 4 months in each year is not excessive.

7x7 is correct, and the refusal does seem unreasonable. A letter to the Embassy might help, but they might just tell you to re-apply. This, I'm afraid, is the way things are going to be now that the right of appeal for family visits has been removed. That said, the Independent Chief Inspector of Immigration is interested in these types of refusals, as part of his remit is to oversee decision-making in applications with no right of appeal. He cannot assist you as an individual case, but he does keep records, and will, at some stage, ask Bangkok why they are making these "erroneous" decisions.

I think it would be a good idea to contact the Embassy and ask for a review. It may not do any good, but no harm in trying. You can PM me if you have any further questions, or carry on in main.

Tony M

[Bill Sykes]

Hi bobrussell

Thanks.

Yes, five months (pretty much times two) is a long holiday. I was with her the first time she left Asia (for NZ) and she saw her first fireplace. And her first fire indoors because it was cold. It was a happy time. I wish I'd been there in Scotland when she saw snow for the first time. If she's looking after/fussing over my father (who by the way we took to Chiang Mai to ride on an elephant for his 75th birthday a few years ago), staying with friends and I can afford it and she doesn't overstay ... good luck to her!

Cheers

Bill

[Bill Sykes]

Hi ThaiVisaExpress

Thanks for the reply.

Why didn't you put a stay "of up to 4 months, or 5 months", or whatever ? You also should really have explained why the applicant stayed longer on the last visits, and that may well have satisfied the ECO.

We did this time (put four to five months). As opposed to the previous two visas, I'm pretty sure that my father will actually sell his home this time, and sometime in the autumn bugger off to NZ for good. I also think I may get two holidays this year, and be there for xmas (to meet up with the wife). I didn't explain why my partner stayed for longer last time because I didn't realise I had to. I think I do now ...

How long has she spent in the UK in the last 2 years ? The ECO has made the point that he has concerns that you are are abusing the visit visas by actually using the visits to reside in the UK. I would have though that 3 to 4 months in each year is not excessive.

Five months in each of the last two years. This year will probably be the last time we (she) visits the UK ever. My father will hopefully be resident in NZ, and to be honest, proud Englishman that I may be, I really have little or no further desire to ever visit the place.

I think it would be a good idea to contact the Embassy and ask for a review. It may not do any good, but no harm in trying. You can PM me if you have any further questions, or carry on in main.

Who should I contact? Please PM if you think this is getting kinda personal ...

Cheers, and TIA

Bill