Staff caught stealing, what is the law regarding the wages? Also law about unpaid trial

[Joe Mamma]

Having spent the majority of my life in law enforcement, I suggest you pay the wages worked and watch your back for years to come. And from the other axed employees too. A short memory here will get you killed for sure.

And lose the attitude, it serves no purpose other than your egos needs!

[lemoncake]

Under Thai labour law you are NOT allowed to stop any money from salary unless the employee agrees with this in writing. If stoppages are included in a written contract money maybe stopped unless the employee claims that they were (forced to sign that contract). In the case of theft you are legally entitled to dismissed the employee without notice or any such other payment other than the time actually worked.

The theft should be reported to the police and legal action taken to protect yourself against a future claim for wrongful dismissal. You may then also start a civil case to recover your property BUT, legally you can't stop it from the salary!

In practice things work slightly differently, before you pay salary, you inform the employee that you intend to call in the police and prosecute or that the employee returns the goods or signs an agreement stating that he or she stole the goods and offers his or her salary by way of compensation. In return for doing this the police will NOT be called in! Most employees will agree with the latter part.

Thanks for that, as i mentioned in the past when employees were caught stealing and police was called, nothing happened, police did not even follow up, even when i pressed charges.

So are you saying that even police were not to take action, still need to file a police report? even for employees who are on probation so dismissing them is not a problem

Hi

Yes if it comes to that (reporting to the police) which should always happen to save a wrongful dismissal case against you however, as I said it is much better to try the threat of getting the police involved but then offer to relent if they sign a document admitting the theft and agreeing to reimburse you by returning the goods or allowing you to keep the wage. The threat of doing it is the important part but, if they won't agree with wage and signing then you must report it to prevent a wrongful dismissal case against you. Hope that is a bit clearer

Thanks for clarifying. In my last case, it is caught on CCTV, admitting or denying makes no difference as there is hard evidence of making a sale and putting money into the pocket..

In my case employee only worked for 4 days so dismissal is not an issue, its only the matter of pay for 4 days.

The amount is dismal, but its the matter of principal paying someone who is a thief.

[lemoncake]

My employee was caught stealing 10,000 baht from our company and the labour dept advised us to pay him his full severance pay upon termination.

I was advised the same, but can deduct the amount stolen, however when i laid out my case they had no idea and answers kept changing.

To make it easier, i got one of the staff to call and the answer was NOT to pay.

Hence why there was a second part of OP, where apparently and i still am not sure on legality, but staff are on 5-7 days of unpaid trial, so should they be dismissed for whatever reason in those days, they are not owed anything.

I have not encountered much theft, but last about 3 months has been a few and all in their first few days of work

[bigbamboo]

What do you do when you catch a thief?

Call the popo, the 5 0, your personal enforcer, your parish priest, or just beat the shit out out him.

Erm....... let them do a runner and leave the country?

[lemoncake]

Remember accusations of stealing can be defamation. I would make sure I had proof before making them and probably would not even then.

Have it on CCTV, after making sale money going into the pocket while standing right next to the register and 10 mins later finishing up work and leaving, so no excuse at all

[lemoncake]

If you don't want to get hurt or have your building burned down pay these people off and politely let them go pay what ever you have to to satisfy the labor department.

I have never had an employee who was given a chance did not steal from me. This is 30 years experience.

I have 3 employees who are given every chance and they DO NOT steal.

I guess your 30 years experience have not been very good for you

[lemoncake]

Theft is pandemic here.

I have been confronted with it.

Pay them off..

Put in better controls and procedures ( harder said and done).

Let it go...but threaten to report to the police..so it's an easy exit..

I have a lot of sympathy for you. Many on here will have no experience of it and come out with these silly platitudes..

I have been super frustrated with this issue..you want to make people's lives at work happy and then they think your a soft touch..

Amen to that, hence why i have 16 camera's and usually all the staff i had were ok.

This last case is so blatant that its hard to believe, in front of camera, not even hiding or trying to hide

[lemoncake]

Yes, theft is pandemic here. If it's not nailed down, it will go walkabout - and it's not just the rank and file workers that are guilty of this - often the worst culprits are managers. In particular I have found the level of corruption and dishonesty within the hotel sector (from my experience) to be entrenched - skimming, stealing, skiving seem to be a qualification. So you really need to get a grip of how you manage these staff and make them accountable.

Get a copy in English of The Labour Protection Act 1998

The OP needs to really look at the way he is managing his staff, and get a very detailed Company Rules and Regulations handbook printed - he says his is two pages, well from experience ours is around 72 pages. Your staff are your gretest asset, and can also be your most problematic - get detailed and clear contracts in place, make sure your Rules and Regulation of Work are detailed and clear , you can get Labour office to check (again though you need to make sure that you have a good relationship with them). Make sure your security is tightened up - bag checks, and only certain exits for staff when they leave, cameras if you can in specific areas.

With regards to with-holding monies , you really need to check the terms and conditions that you have employed the staff under - and if you have conditions whereby loss of property / theft etc means that the person is responsible for reimbursement. Sometimes, you have to be tough otherwise staff will think they can get away with it. All in all seems like it's a problem you've had before, so look at ways of preventing it / reducing it.

As i mentioned earlier i have a 2 page very detailed company rules and regulations which must be signed prior to accepting the job, however according to Labor Department and lawyer, this rules and regulations are meaningless, should the matter go to Labor Court.

Labor Law, also does not seem to have a clause in regards to theft in the first few days of employment,

I know matters are different should be it a perm employee ie after 120 days of probation, but this is the case of 4 days of employment and hence the confusion and different answers.

In my rules and regulations it states if caught stealing, will be dismissed and loss of salary for that month plus legal action, but what i am trying to find is a reference to the actual law in my particular case of only been employed 4 days.

[lemoncake]

1. Criminal Activity and Paying Salary are two separate issues that you can not combine. If someone goes to work for you, you must pay them as per Thai labor laws. You can easily find details about Thai labor law on google. Make sure you read it in detail and educate yourself. I also recommend you find a solid HR attorney who manages all your hiring and firing. You should take a deposit from anyone who handles cash. So to answer you question, you must pay your staff for days worked, even if they stole from you. If not, then that person has the right to go see their local labor officer and they can pursue a case against you. The labor officer will tell you that you must pay, and can pursue in the criminal court about the theft.

2. If someone stole from you, and you have it on CCTV, you can go to your local police department and see what they say. I suggest you make a example of someone so that your other staff know you mean business.

In regards to 2, its hard to make example of someone with such a huge staff turn over.

I have solid 3 staff who donot need to be "shown" its the new staff who seem to be the problem.

In regards to 1, you may find that it is not so clear, because their criminal activity has cost a loss to the business as a direct result of their action. Furthermore there is intangible losses, (example of hotel) if maid was a thief, guests will not be returning and will also be writing negative feedbacks of their experience costing business even more with losses which can not even be calculated.

Again, if this was a long term employee, perhaps management could be blamed for either turning the blind eye or over looking, in my case(as a matter of fact, in each one of my cases) theft took place in the first days of employment

[lemoncake]

I don't' understand why you need to ask these questions as the answers are ready available in the labor law, of which I believe you (or your HR) have a copy so no need to copy it here.

In Thailand, as in most country's I believe, you have to pay for days already worked. If your company specific agreement say something else I believe it is illegal.

And a probation period without pay is just simply illegal.

Probation period in Thailand is 120 days.

The 5-7 days is a training/trial period for which staff are paid if they perform satisfactory, if not they are dismissed within those 5-7 days if not sooner

[lemoncake]

My post number 47 certainly qualifies as an experience with dealing with the labor department. They do respond to enquiries, and offer professional advice when specifics are submitted.

And as a bonus, it provides a number for a "where I you should ask".

Thank you, as i have already said i believe 3-5 times, labor department gives a different answer.

There is a law in regards to perm employees, however they unsure what the actual law is in regards to people with 4 days of employment

[timewilltell]

If you have hard evidence of theft and at this stage donor intend to prosecute then draft a letter to the employee offering to take no further action on the theft charge. Draft a second receipt for wages paid. Either the person signs both or you pay he four days wages at the police station at the same time you are making the police report with your lawyer.

[lemoncake]

Although this won't help you now, many Thai firms either ask for a deposit or for someone to stand in as a guarantee for the employee. According to the letter of the law you must pay them and open a criminal case against them (not civil). Practically you can trade the outstanding pay of against not opening a case. But be carefull. Talk to your local Dept of Labour and get their inputs.

Thank you, sadly from previous experience police do not pursue the case even after officially filing the criminal charges(with witnesses of theft and statements)

[lemoncake]

I have nothing to add but just want to annoy the OP. I would love this thread to get over 100 pages long just to annoy him.

First of all you have had at least 10 people respond and give you a very clear answer.

I have been an employee here and if they really want to get their money wages from you they can.

If you have a legal contract written in Thai that states a procedure for early dismissal or quitting, then you wouldn't have to pay.

There are ways to protect yourself as others have suggested. There are legal procedures that you must follow, but since you just don't care to listen to what others have said, put your head in the sand and deal with the ramifications of your choices.

Fact. if you catch someone stealing, give them the choice of calling the police or leaving. They will most likely not ask for salary but if they demand their severance you do legally need to pay them.

As others have stated the Labor board is very clear on this. These are 2 separate issues, criminal and labor.

I really do not understand if you just do not read or can not understand what is written

Staff was only employed for 4 days

There is a contract in Thai, with clear clause stating if caught stealing, will not be paid for the month

Being within the probation period, there is no procedure and there are no legal actions for dismissing them. There is no need to even give the reason.

[MyFriend You]

Minimum wage is rigidly enforced by the labour department.

You must pay it for every day an employee works, no matter what reason you have not to pay it.

Theoretically you could deduct the value of any item you could prove they 'stole and kept' from their wages.

As an aside.

You want to keep a Thai person's wages for 4 days they worked, what's wrong with you?

You are Absolutely Correct - you have to pay, irregardless (love that non-word) of the circumstances............pay them, and fire them - why give them a second chance, kind of like marrying your Ex-Wife..................cut the bull and get a new staff.

[Bcgardener]

I have nothing to add but just want to annoy the OP. I would love this thread to get over 100 pages long just to annoy him.

 

First of all you have had at least 10 people respond and give you a very clear answer.

 

I have been an employee here and if they really want to get their money wages from you they can.

 

If you have a legal contract written in Thai that states a procedure for early dismissal or quitting, then you wouldn't have to pay.

 

There are ways to protect yourself as others have suggested. There are legal procedures that you must follow, but since you just don't care to listen to what others have said, put your head in the sand and deal with the ramifications of your choices.

 

Fact. if you catch someone stealing, give them the choice of calling the police or leaving. They will most likely not ask for salary but if they demand their severance you do legally need to pay them.

As others have stated the Labor board is very clear on this. These are 2 separate issues, criminal and labor.

I really do not understand if you just do not read or can not understand what is written

Staff was only employed for 4 days

There is a contract in Thai, with clear clause stating if caught stealing, will not be paid for the month

Being within the probation period, there is no procedure and there are no legal actions for dismissing them. There is no need to even give the reason.

I think you will find that under the labour laws you are required to give an employee notice or pay in lieu equivalent to their pay period, even during the probation period i.e. if they are paid daily, one day. If paid monthly then one month.

Sent from my GT-P5100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[lemoncake]

I have tried not to, but I just have to respond. It is very clear that you have no objective of finding out the correct answer. You decided how you were going to handle this long before you ever made the post. You are not comfortable with your decision, and you are hoping that someone will post something that will agree with the decision you have already made, making it easier for you to sleep at night. You don't want to pay the employee for work performed, that is obvious. Why keep banging your head on the wall? Just remember, you have made yourself the accuser, the judge, and the jury. Not a world that many people would, or should accept. Best of luck.

Could you please point out for me, which post addressed my exact question of paying the salary to someone of 4 days in employment, when caught stealing on the 4th day

I am very comfortable with my decision and do have contracts to assert my position, HOWEVER i was trying to find the exact relevance to the law in this specific case, i repeat again specific case of being in employment less than a week.

As an employer with undeniable proof of theft, yes i am in the position to be the accuser, having the contract also in the position to be the judge and jury.

However it does not hurt to broaden my knowledge or experience on the matter and specific case.

It will ALSO not hurt others who actually have businesses in Thailand to know the options.

Sadly just as with every thread, there are too many trolls who can not help themselves but ruin every thread with their useless, inexperienced and unrelated opinions, instead of making useful and related contributions

[HerbalEd]

You have a company and employer but no lawyer? Hmm would try to find one and ask him.

And what makes you think Thai lawyers know this? and/ or i have not asked already?

According to company lawyer, without any reference if caught stealing do not pay anything at all, but again for the 3rd time, i am wanting to know the actual law NOT what you think or guess and NOT what Thai lawyer thinks

So you don't trust what your own Thai lawyer advises you about Thai law, and instead want the advice of total strangers??

[HerbalEd]

You have a company and employer but no lawyer? Hmm would try to find one and ask him.

And what makes you think Thai lawyers know this? and/ or i have not asked already?

According to company lawyer, without any reference if caught stealing do not pay anything at all, but again for the 3rd time, i am wanting to know the actual law NOT what you think or guess and NOT what Thai lawyer thinks

If you poke to a lawyer ... and he gave you an answer

Why are you posting the same questions here

also, I know that on a public forum, people can respond as they

see fit as long as it is within the rules of the forum.

So by asking people not to respond unless ....

you are asking for all kinds of answer ... that is life on public forums

No one on public forums likes to be told not to answer

We have read you post ... and we are allowed to answer ... yes? no?

Why are you responding if you do not have anything at all of value to add?

Did you see a question there anywhere asking for evaluation of my post?

Life on public forum? No, its those without a life who feel the need to go into any thread, unrelated to them and express their unwanted and unwarranted opinions, exactly how you have done

Does not take a rocket scientist to figure out if its not posted in general topic it might be specific and addressed for specific people

Wow. You really come off as rude and arrogant. And it's not YOUR threat. You're just the OP.

[MyFriend You]

I have nothing to add but just want to annoy the OP. I would love this thread to get over 100 pages long just to annoy him.

First of all you have had at least 10 people respond and give you a very clear answer.

I have been an employee here and if they really want to get their money wages from you they can.

If you have a legal contract written in Thai that states a procedure for early dismissal or quitting, then you wouldn't have to pay.

There are ways to protect yourself as others have suggested. There are legal procedures that you must follow, but since you just don't care to listen to what others have said, put your head in the sand and deal with the ramifications of your choices.

Fact. if you catch someone stealing, give them the choice of calling the police or leaving. They will most likely not ask for salary but if they demand their severance you do legally need to pay them.

As others have stated the Labor board is very clear on this. These are 2 separate issues, criminal and labor.

I really do not understand if you just do not read or can not understand what is written

Staff was only employed for 4 days

There is a contract in Thai, with clear clause stating if caught stealing, will not be paid for the month

Being within the probation period, there is no procedure and there are no legal actions for dismissing them. There is no need to even give the reason.

Amigo.............now I have read your original post and this rubbish above - you have clearly had them sign an Illegal Contract..........they would win (as two of my former staff did) in Labor Court, my Manager held their wages, that was illegal, and also can be construed as Trafficking in Persons violation, in plain language - Slavery - file a police report, pay them, and be rid of it.

[rayongchelsea]

Whatever the labour laws are..it sucks that you have to pay these dishonest individuals who seem to be very well versed in the laws themselves.

In one case I just wanted them to leave, no punishment just get out of my sight. Became like a bloody soap opera....it seemed to me that the whole idea of being dishonest wasn't even acknowledged, although the mention of the police did get a response..

I am very much in favour of employee protection, the minimum wage etc..but it can be detrimental at times..and ever increasingly at that.

[MyFriend You]

I have nothing to add but just want to annoy the OP. I would love this thread to get over 100 pages long just to annoy him.

First of all you have had at least 10 people respond and give you a very clear answer.

I have been an employee here and if they really want to get their money wages from you they can.

If you have a legal contract written in Thai that states a procedure for early dismissal or quitting, then you wouldn't have to pay.

There are ways to protect yourself as others have suggested. There are legal procedures that you must follow, but since you just don't care to listen to what others have said, put your head in the sand and deal with the ramifications of your choices.

Fact. if you catch someone stealing, give them the choice of calling the police or leaving. They will most likely not ask for salary but if they demand their severance you do legally need to pay them.

As others have stated the Labor board is very clear on this. These are 2 separate issues, criminal and labor.

Apologies, my answer was for LemonCake, not you - you gave solid advice , as almost everyone else on this forum.........

[darrendsd]

Lemoncake why do you keep going on abusing everyone who tries to help you? Read what people are saying about your attitude, it doesn't make for nice reading does it?

Also if we "Trolls" as you call us are giving our "useless inexperienced opinions" then why are you on here asking questions? If you are experienced as you think you are then you would not need to be on here asking would you?

And yet people are still trying to help you,

I hope the rest of your staff rob you of everything you have, you deserve it

Edited August 6, 2013 by darrendsd

[HerbalEd]

Minimum wage is rigidly enforced by the labour department.

You must pay it for every day an employee works, no matter what reason you have not to pay it.

Theoretically you could deduct the value of any item you could prove they 'stole and kept' from their wages.

As an aside.

You want to keep a Thai person's wages for 4 days they worked, what's wrong with you?

This has nothing to do with minimum wage

Please read the post again.

I also did not ask about theoretical question but need a definite.

So all of the above that you wrote, is it according to you? or an actual law addressing the actual matter of theft?

On a side note: What problem do you have with not paying a Thai who was caught stealing? would it be different if they were African or English?

if you want a definitive answer i suggest you approach the labour department rather than waste your time here

Just as with anything else in Thailand, different person you speak with, gets you a different answer, hence the dilemma

Getting a labor lawyer costs further money which only adds to more losses.

So, the reason you're asking here on TV is because you don't want to spend money on a lawyer? And yet when several people go to the trouble of giving you good advice you reject it. Well, you get what you (don't) pay for.

Edited August 6, 2013 by HerbalEd

[MyFriend You]

I have tried not to, but I just have to respond. It is very clear that you have no objective of finding out the correct answer. You decided how you were going to handle this long before you ever made the post. You are not comfortable with your decision, and you are hoping that someone will post something that will agree with the decision you have already made, making it easier for you to sleep at night. You don't want to pay the employee for work performed, that is obvious. Why keep banging your head on the wall? Just remember, you have made yourself the accuser, the judge, and the jury. Not a world that many people would, or should accept. Best of luck.

Could you please point out for me, which post addressed my exact question of paying the salary to someone of 4 days in employment, when caught stealing on the 4th day

I am very comfortable with my decision and do have contracts to assert my position, HOWEVER i was trying to find the exact relevance to the law in this specific case, i repeat again specific case of being in employment less than a week.

As an employer with undeniable proof of theft, yes i am in the position to be the accuser, having the contract also in the position to be the judge and jury.

However it does not hurt to broaden my knowledge or experience on the matter and specific case.

It will ALSO not hurt others who actually have businesses in Thailand to know the options.

Sadly just as with every thread, there are too many trolls who can not help themselves but ruin every thread with their useless, inexperienced and unrelated opinions, instead of making useful and related contributions

and this post should be you obviously have made up your mind, and have nothing better to do but rebut all suggestions...........I'm going back to work,,,,,,,

[lemoncake]

You have a company and employer but no lawyer? Hmm would try to find one and ask him.

And what makes you think Thai lawyers know this? and/ or i have not asked already?

According to company lawyer, without any reference if caught stealing do not pay anything at all, but again for the 3rd time, i am wanting to know the actual law NOT what you think or guess and NOT what Thai lawyer thinks

So you don't trust what your own Thai lawyer advises you about Thai law, and instead want the advice of total strangers??

That is correct i do not trust my own Thai Lawyer and want to hear from people with experience, which i clearly stated in the first post, sadly though missed by too many

[HerbalEd]

Get a copy in English of The Labour Protection Act 1998

In my rules and regulations it states if caught stealing, will be dismissed and loss of salary for that month plus legal action, but what i am trying to find is a reference to the actual law in my particular case of only been employed 4 days.

You say "what i am trying to find is a reference to the actual law in my particular case ..." Well, you have been given that reference several times. In fact, one person actually gave you a link to the Thai labor laws in English. What do you want now ... someone to do your work for you and post the actual section of the labor laws to refers to your situation?

Did you ever think that the reason you can't find a reference to your specific case "of only been employed for 4 days" is because there's no exception for such. You can't expect the labor laws to address each and every detail of every situation.

Edited August 6, 2013 by HerbalEd

[lemoncake]

Wow. You really come off as rude and arrogant. And it's not YOUR threat. You're just the OP.

Yes i am just the OP and what does that have to do with OP?

Very sorry for NOT wanting to sort through rubbish and was hoping to avoid it, but clearly on Thai Visa it is simply not possible

[rayongchelsea]

I think you should accept that some people will be more helpful than others and just except that, as with most forums.

Overall you have had your question answered.

[lemoncake]

Yes, theft is pandemic here. If it's not nailed down, it will go walkabout - and it's not just the rank and file workers that are guilty of this - often the worst culprits are managers. In particular I have found the level of corruption and dishonesty within the hotel sector (from my experience) to be entrenched - skimming, stealing, skiving seem to be a qualification. So you really need to get a grip of how you manage these staff and make them accountable.

Get a copy in English of The Labour Protection Act 1998

The OP needs to really look at the way he is managing his staff, and get a very detailed Company Rules and Regulations handbook printed - he says his is two pages, well from experience ours is around 72 pages. Your staff are your gretest asset, and can also be your most problematic - get detailed and clear contracts in place, make sure your Rules and Regulation of Work are detailed and clear , you can get Labour office to check (again though you need to make sure that you have a good relationship with them). Make sure your security is tightened up - bag checks, and only certain exits for staff when they leave, cameras if you can in specific areas.

With regards to with-holding monies , you really need to check the terms and conditions that you have employed the staff under - and if you have conditions whereby loss of property / theft etc means that the person is responsible for reimbursement. Sometimes, you have to be tough otherwise staff will think they can get away with it. All in all seems like it's a problem you've had before, so look at ways of preventing it / reducing it.

As i mentioned earlier i have a 2 page very detailed company rules and regulations which must be signed prior to accepting the job, however according to Labor Department and lawyer, this rules and regulations are meaningless, should the matter go to Labor Court.

Labor Law, also does not seem to have a clause in regards to theft in the first few days of employment,

I know matters are different should be it a perm employee ie after 120 days of probation, but this is the case of 4 days of employment and hence the confusion and different answers.

In my rules and regulations it states if caught stealing, will be dismissed and loss of salary for that month plus legal action, but what i am trying to find is a reference to the actual law in my particular case of only been employed 4 days.

You say "what i am trying to find is a reference to the actual law in my particular case ..." Well, you have been given that reference several times. In fact, one person actually gave you a link to the Thai labor laws in English. What do you want now ... someone to do your work for you and post the actual section of the labor laws to refers to your situation?

Really? ok please underline for me where in that link/law it refers to employees in their first days of employment? Training/trial Not probation? or perhaps where it says "irrespective" of how many days in employment?

You do not think i have a copy of thai labor law?

DO you have anything useful to add or ran out of threads to ruin? If thats the case, why do not you do my work for me and find it, so you do not appear to be a troll and point out the "obvious"