andrew Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 (edited) What is the most valuable Thai artefact outside of Thailand?The title says it all. If you were to trawl the world's great museums in search of Thai artefacts, what would you find? And what would be truly priceless?My ContentionIn my opinion, the most priceless Thai artefact is the Singora cannon in the grounds of the Royal Chelsea Hospital, London. For those of you not familiar with the Chelsea Hospital, let me just say that it's the home of the Chelsea pensioners and one of the most prestigious military establishments in the UK.This is the cannon. Note the references on the sign to Singora and Sulaiman Shah.And another ..... Some of you won't know about Singora. And many of you will not have heard of Sultan Sulaiman Shah. But this is easy to explain.Songkla used to be called Singora. But the name Singora applied specifically to the old part of Songkla that dates back to the 1600s. About 20 years ago, this old part was sliced off and named Singa Nakhon. These days, Singa Nakhon is a fairly quiet little town. The Sultan who once ruled Singa Nakon (or Singora) is obviously long gone. But his tomb still remains and can be visited with relative ease. Here's a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_Pnh-OhFT4 I visit this tomb often since it's only a 3 or 4 minute walk from my GF's house. Why is this cannon so valuable?There are many reasons why I belive this cannon is priceless, but most are scholarly and way beyond the scope of this forum. If you're interested, google: Pucuk gunung es tower of londonThis should get you into page 448 of a book which discusses Malay Syairs and Persian Quatrains. These terms refer to the Malay and Arabic verses that are carved into the barrel of the cannon and inlaid with silver. The chapter (starting on page 448) is actually rather grand. It reads: In 1967, I was invited by the Assistant Master of the Amouries of the Tower of London to inspect an inscribed cannon exhibited in the grounds of the Chelsea Hospital. What do you think?It's quite possible that I've got this wrong. It's quite possible that there are other Thai artefacts scattered around the world that are infinitely more interesting and valuable than the Singora cannon.If so, I'd be extremely grateful for any feedback. Edited August 10, 2013 by andrew 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToddWeston Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Thank you Andrew I didn't realise there was such an item like this in UK. Looking forward to learning from other posters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew Posted August 10, 2013 Author Share Posted August 10, 2013 Thank you Andrew I didn't realise there was such an item like this in UK. Looking forward to learning from other posters. Thanks. Actually, one of the problems I face is getting decent photos of the cannon. On FLICKR, you can try: http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=chelsea%20hospital%20cannon The above link will bring up 3 or 4 photos of the Singora cannon, but the best ones have been taken by pros and they want money for the original, full-sized masters. ================================================== The BBC hosted a section where people could show paintings of the Chelsea Hospital. This is the BBC page: http://www.bbc.co.uk/arts/yourpaintings/galleries/collections/the-royal-hospital-chelsea-2372. Here, you can see that the cannon is in need of a good clean! This painting (also from the BBC site) is nice. It shows the day when the Queen Mother (deceased) visited the Royal Chelsea Hospital back in 1987. The flag is the Royal Standard. Notice how the artist / painter has left out the sign in front of the cannon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossfinn Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Khao Phra Viharn 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossfinn Posted August 10, 2013 Share Posted August 10, 2013 Potentially a good thread, but diluted by ' the limited scope of the forum' I am afraid!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buck99 Posted August 11, 2013 Share Posted August 11, 2013 Thank you for the post Andrew. I found it interesting and now want to know more about the Burmese Wars. Being an American, I really didn't learn about the British wars with the exception of the one in 1776 against the "Colonies". I was surprised the Thais had the technology to cast a cannon back in 1623. When I toured the King's armory in BKK I noticed the majority of cannons were of British manufacture with a few from the USA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew Posted August 11, 2013 Author Share Posted August 11, 2013 Thank you for the post Andrew. I found it interesting and now want to know more about the Burmese Wars. Being an American, I really didn't learn about the British wars with the exception of the one in 1776 against the "Colonies". I was surprised the Thais had the technology to cast a cannon back in 1623. When I toured the King's armory in BKK I noticed the majority of cannons were of British manufacture with a few from the USA. The Burmese wars I don't know much about the Burmese wars, I'm afraid. All I really know is that it was General Sir Harry Prendergast who led the English to victory. Take a look at this photo of the Singora cannon. http://www.flickr.com/photos/maggiejones/7881739366/ You'll notice one of the Arabic inscriptions; you'll also notice that a comment has been added by Hew Prendergast. I assume that Hew is the grandson or great grandson of Harry Prendergast. You could write to him, if you want. Technology The technology to make cannons has existed in these parts for many centuries. The great cannons of Pattani, for example, were cast by a Chinese engineer in the mid 1500s. This said, a few military forums I've looked at have suggested that the Singora cannon may have been made by Portuguese craftsmen. This is certainly a possibility. Another of the cannons sent back to England after the Burmese wars is now on display in Edinburgh. It was given to Scotland in 1886 to mark the opening of the great exhibition in Edinburgh; a year later it was put on permanent display on Calton Hill This cannon is Portuguese. It's dated 1624. It was made by (or for) a certain Dom Diego Da Silva, the Count of Portelegre. This cannon also once resided here in Thailand (ie, it was captured by the Burmese prior to the Anglo-Burmese wars), but its history is complex and I don't have time to explain things in detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chonburiram Posted August 11, 2013 Share Posted August 11, 2013 Maybe this?: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/17/arts/design/17fink.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew Posted August 11, 2013 Author Share Posted August 11, 2013 Maybe this?: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/17/arts/design/17fink.html Good post. My understanding is that the American guy was cycling home after having given an English lesson. My understanding is that he fell off his bicycle somewhere in Udon Thani and landed face downwards in a field. My understanding is that he opened his eyes and noticed numerous shards of pottery. And then ............... ======================= Yes, it's a fantastic story. But are these Ban Chiang artefacts really the most valuable Thai artefacts outside of Thailand? Personally I think not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossfinn Posted August 11, 2013 Share Posted August 11, 2013 Maybe this?: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/17/arts/design/17fink.html Maybe in isolation each piece is not the most valuable, but seen in the round and according to the article, the amount of artifacts in circulation, potentially looted could amount to a considerable price tag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maestro Posted August 11, 2013 Share Posted August 11, 2013 I have removed some troll posts and the replies to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrybankruad Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 It must be difficult to put a price on artefacts such as these. I suppose they are worth what someone is prepared to pay for them. Did it not cost the Thais a quarter of a million dollars to buy back the Narai Lintel after the Americans had stolen it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew Posted August 12, 2013 Author Share Posted August 12, 2013 It must be difficult to put a price on artefacts such as these. I suppose they are worth what someone is prepared to pay for them. Did it not cost the Thais a quarter of a million dollars to buy back the Narai Lintel after the Americans had stolen it? Putting a price on things True, putting a price on the Sultan's cannon would be close to impossible. To understand things a bit better, look at this: The above document is from:http://www.manusya.journals.chula.ac.th/files/essay/Julispong_37-58.pdf The MANUSYA is the Journal of Humanities, Chulalongkhorn University. The Thai-Persian elite When you understand these things, you'll start to see how Thailand's aristocracy (and to some extent, the Royal Family) is Thai-Persian. You'll see too that the Thai Royal Family are the rightful owners of the Chelsea cannon. Sultan Sulaiman Shah's granddaughter (or great granddaughter) was the wife of King Rama II and mother of King Rama III. The Bunnags Read about the Bunnag Family (the descendants of Sheik Ahmad). Their history is intertwined with that of Sultan Sulaiman. Per WIKI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunnag_family "The House of Bunnag (Thai: บุนนาค; RTGS: Bunnak) was a powerful Siamese noble family of Persian descent of the early Rattanakosin Kingdom of Siam. By the nineteenth century, its power and influence reached its zenith. The family was favored by Chakri monarchs and monopolized high-ranking titles. Three of only four Somdet Chao Phraya came from the Bunnag family — Dis, styled Somdet Chao Phraya Borom Maha Prayurawongse; his younger brother Tat, styled Somdet Chao Phraya Borom Maha Pichaiyat; and eldest son Chuang, styled Somdet Chao Phraya Borom Si Suriyawongse. They played key roles in government and foreign relations until after the Front Palace Crisis. As Chulalongkorn sought to undo the power of nobility and to pursue centralization, the Bunnags gradually withdrew from prominent roles in Siamese politics, yet continued to fill important official ranks." General Prem Learn about General Prem. He's a former Prime Minister and these days the Head of the Privy Council. Put another way, he's the official spokesperson of HM The King. So does General Prem come from BKK or does he come from Singora? You know the answer. His house is about a mile from the Sultan's tomb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrry Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 Interesting topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chonburiram Posted August 12, 2013 Share Posted August 12, 2013 The Thaicom satellites 4 - 7 must be the most valuable Thai artefacts outside Thailand (World)... andrew, do you allow satellites as artefacts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew Posted August 12, 2013 Author Share Posted August 12, 2013 (edited) The Thaicom satellites 4 - 7 must be the most valuable Thai artefacts outside Thailand (World)... andrew, do you allow satellites as artefacts? Interesting. Just for you .... I will allow satellites! ========================= I'll try to come back later and talk about the two silver cannons which the Siamese once gave to the French. Per Wiki: The "exotic" clothes as well as manners of the envoys .... during their visit on September 1, 1686 .... caused much comment in French high society. The embassy brought vast amounts of presents to Louis XIV. Among them were gold, tortoise shells, fabrics, carpets, more than 1,500 pieces of porcelain, as well as lacquer furniture. Two silver Siamese cannons were given as present to Louis XIV, and by a strange twist of fate these cannons would be seized by French revolutionaries in 1789 to be used in the Storming of the Bastille. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siamese_embassy_to_France_(1686) Edited August 12, 2013 by andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beautifulthailand99 Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 An old post but I know but the Victoria and Albert museum has 60 Thai artefacts which would be worth a few bob I would have thought. http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/t/the-arts-of-thailand/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccarty Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 Is Thaksin an artefact? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyBobThai Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 Hopefully to be returned soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marko kok prong Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 I hope casual poster does not see this as he according to his own words wrote the best article about Thailand ever to appear on wikipedia,it was about Signora i believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marko kok prong Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 The Thaicom satellites 4 - 7 must be the most valuable Thai artefacts outside Thailand (World)... andrew, do you allow satellites as artefacts? Interesting. Just for you .... I will allow satellites! ========================= I'll try to come back later and talk about the two silver cannons which the Siamese once gave to the French. Per Wiki: The "exotic" clothes as well as manners of the envoys .... during their visit on September 1, 1686 .... caused much comment in French high society. The embassy brought vast amounts of presents to Louis XIV. Among them were gold, tortoise shells, fabrics, carpets, more than 1,500 pieces of porcelain, as well as lacquer furniture. Two silver Siamese cannons were given as present to Louis XIV, and by a strange twist of fate these cannons would be seized by French revolutionaries in 1789 to be used in the Storming of the Bastille. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siamese_embassy_to_France_(1686) Great picture ,those were the days,were we could all mince around in skirts,bloody victorians stopped all the fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuestHouse Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 There are a handful of 'Thai Assets' in London under 24/7 armed guard of the UK Special Branch, I'm guessing they are regarded as of 'High Value'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattszero Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 Andrew/casual poster/ mediumpacebowler + many other user names is an alcoholic cuckold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David48 Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 Andrew/casual poster/ mediumpacebowler + many other user names is an ... That's a bit harsh, isn't it? It's a big fishbowl we all swim around in ... sometimes we bump into each other. Tolerance is better then other options. I don't recall any of the posts by the members you mention above being particularly nasty, nor spitefull. Challenging, maybe. Certainly different from my mindset ... but it would be a boring old place if everyone was the same as you or me don't you think? Live and let live, I say. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
somchaismith Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 My ex-wife. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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