Elephant trekking/tour

[eezergood]

Can someone recommend a good company for a half day tour?

[eezergood]

Also any good reputible tour company, not only an elephant trek

[MESmith]

Always take guests wanting to see elephants to the Elephant institute, near Lampang. They do Mahout courses & jungle treks. http://www.thailandelephant.org/en/activities.html

[lovetotravel]

Riding an elephant is not the most politically correct thing to do. Google "elephant training" and watch some of the videos. It's heart breaking. If the tour company allows riding on an elephant, it's not a good tour company.

http://journals.worldnomads.com/responsible-travel/story/81053/Thailand/Why-Elephant-Riding-Should-Be-Removed-from-Your-Bucket-List

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2176957/The-agonising-blows-expose-evil-secrets-Thailands-elephant-tourism-The-Duchess-Cornwalls-brother-tells-baby-elephants-brutally-starved-tortured.html#ixzz21Jpby7X2

[DaamNaam]

Riding an elephant is not the most politically correct thing to do. Google "elephant training" and watch some of the videos. It's heart breaking. If the tour company allows riding on an elephant, it's not a good tour company.

http://journals.worldnomads.com/responsible-travel/story/81053/Thailand/Why-Elephant-Riding-Should-Be-Removed-from-Your-Bucket-List

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2176957/The-agonising-blows-expose-evil-secrets-Thailands-elephant-tourism-The-Duchess-Cornwalls-brother-tells-baby-elephants-brutally-starved-tortured.html#ixzz21Jpby7X2

Exactly. Don't ride them, full stop / period.

Go and vist Elephant Nature Park and see what Lek Chailert is doing up there.

She rescues them from these tourist traps.

The only one worth a visit.

http://www.elephantnaturepark.org

[Johpa]

Riding an elephant is not the most politically correct thing to do. Google "elephant training" and watch some of the videos. It's heart breaking. If the tour company allows riding on an elephant, it's not a good tour company.

Balderdash! Yes, there are some smaller camps where conditions and training are contemptible. But, for just one example, the largest camp, up at Mae Sa, takes excellent care of the animals. And the bottom line, without people paying for rides and art and all the other tacky trimmings there would not be enough money to feed the current population and culling would ensue. Perhaps some day there will be a revenue source to care for the non-wild population of elephant without resorting to rides and antics. What perhaps should be discouraged is the establishment of tourist oriented camps in the south where elephants were never part of the culture. But by all means, support the camps that align with your personal politics.

[eezergood]

Thanks guys

[FolkGuitar]

Exactly. Don't ride them, full stop / period.

Go and vist Elephant Nature Park and see what Lek Chailert is doing up there.

She rescues them from these tourist traps.

The only one worth a visit.

http://www.elephantnaturepark.org

Lek does an excellent job rescuing elephants who are being mistreated, and is to be commended for her work.

Unfortunately, her Nature Park only supports a couple of elephants. These big beasts require a massive amount of food daily and her property is only just large enough for just a few animals. It would be wonderful if we could remove the towns, villages, resorts, and condominiums that have taken away the natural habitat of the Asian elephant, but that's not going to happen. We'll continue to build more and more, so there is less and less space in the wild for these magnificent animals to feed and live.

The larger Elephant camps, when properly run, support 20-40 elephants. They can afford to feed and care (good veterinary care) so many animals because of all the tourist money coming in. Years ago, before the laws changed to prohibit logging in Thailand, elephants earned their food by daily work... just as you and me. Then their work was stopped by government action, but these same laws made no provisions for feeding the workers. So what do you do with hundreds and hundreds of elephants who need food every day?

There really are only two choices available today;

Kill them

Put them back to work doing something else so they can earn their food. The only work available right now are the shows. That work is certainly easier than hauling huge trees through the jungle all day. Today, the elephants work for about 2-3 hours a day, get good food and great care (in the properly run camps, which are the majority. There are some that are not so good,) and the rest of the day is theirs to relax. I'm sure most humans would love to have a job in which they only had to work 2-3 hours to support themselves.

Some folks think it's demeaning to have an elephant perform like this. Is it any more demeaning than a Hollywood actor, a Nashville singer, or a human circus performer? Spend some time around the elephants at the Mae Sa Elephant camp. 3-4 days there paying attention to the 'attitudes' of the elephants. I think you'll agree than many of them appear to actually enjoy the activities, especially the younger elephants. Hey, kids are kids, regardless of the species.

[junglechef]

Humans have a choice and most don't learn to play the guitar by being tortured, that being said since we do not live in a perfect world obviously there is a need for modern solutions to modern problems that aren't going to please everyone. Having spoken to some of the forieng proffesional elephant expert workers here i am concerned on what is considered good care and how much money is a factor in deciding this.

[lovetotravel]

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/623605-thai-wife-of-german-man-killed-by-crazed-elephant-in-rayong/

A 56-year-old Thai wife of a farang was fatally gored by a 2-year-old elephant on Maerampung beach. She was buying sugar cane to feed the elephant when it attacked her. The mahout said the hot weather had crazed the normally docile beast. The mahout and the elephant’s owner will be prosecuted by police.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/662552-phuket-jungle-trek-camps-raided-in-search-for-phantom-elephants/

“We hope the raids will help reduce the problem of poaching wild elephants, and stop people from killing mother elephants for their babies,” he said.

Edited August 24, 2013 by lovetotravel

[FolkGuitar]

I'll pose a question to you both:

Who will feed all the elephants now that we've taken away their natural habitat?

The solution to this problem as it affects the United States animal populations is controlled hunting seasons so the herd sizes are kept in balance with the available food supply. This balance is critical to the health of the herd. If the herd becomes larger than the available food supply, disease strikes the herd and decimates it. In many cases, eradicates it. To date, no one has stepped forward to say "hey! Bulldoze down my house so the land can support more wildlife." We took away the elephant's habitat. So what do we do now?

Do you think this is a valid way to deal with elephants in Thailand? And if not, then who will feed the elephants?

[FolkGuitar]

.................... Having spoken to some of the forieng proffesional elephant expert workers here i am concerned on what is considered good care and how much money is a factor in deciding this.

Being concerned is good. Feeding the elephants is better. Have you done that?

Why not 'adopt' an elephant and feed it. Go up to the Mae Sa camp, introduce yourself to a Mahout, and ask him if you can pay for the elephants food for the rest of its life... We can't just stop feeding them while we solve the problem, no matter how concerned we are.

[circusman]

Riding an elephant is not the most politically correct thing to do. Google "elephant training" and watch some of the videos. It's heart breaking. If the tour company allows riding on an elephant, it's not a good tour company.

Balderdash! Yes, there are some smaller camps where conditions and training are contemptible. But, for just one example, the largest camp, up at Mae Sa, takes excellent care of the animals. And the bottom line, without people paying for rides and art and all the other tacky trimmings there would not be enough money to feed the current population and culling would ensue. Perhaps some day there will be a revenue source to care for the non-wild population of elephant without resorting to rides and antics. What perhaps should be discouraged is the establishment of tourist oriented camps in the south where elephants were never part of the culture. But by all means, support the camps that align with your personal politics.

You have some good thoughts but threatening culling is just plain not true. Elephant = $$$ Would someone smash their pickup into a tree because he could not afford petrol? Of course not.

[junglechef]

.................... Having spoken to some of the forieng proffesional elephant expert workers here i am concerned on what is considered good care and how much money is a factor in deciding this.

Being concerned is good. Feeding the elephants is better. Have you done that?

Why not 'adopt' an elephant and feed it. Go up to the Mae Sa camp, introduce yourself to a Mahout, and ask him if you can pay for the elephants food for the rest of its life... We can't just stop feeding them while we solve the problem, no matter how concerned we are.

I feel I've been misquotes or at least misunderstood as the concern I was referring to was if the priorities of the some of the caregivers was for these magnificent beasts or the profit that can be made from them.

As for my personal choices of where to allocate my resources for charitable causes is not really the issue here and I only wish they were vast enough to help all of them I feel worthy. But since you brought it up I do a lot for a local orphanage and hope you don't judge me for choosing these needy children.

When I have wanted to see elephants here I have in the wild at far more inconvenience but with much more reward for me and my family and feel the appreciation for them my boys got was a lot more than seeing them painting and playing football.

I wish you the best with your efforts, whatever they are, and hope they are helping and not adding to the problem.

Edited August 24, 2013 by junglechef

[Johpa]

Balderdash! Yes, there are some smaller camps where conditions and training are contemptible. But, for just one example, the largest camp, up at Mae Sa, takes excellent care of the animals. And the bottom line, without people paying for rides and art and all the other tacky trimmings there would not be enough money to feed the current population and culling would ensue. Perhaps some day there will be a revenue source to care for the non-wild population of elephant without resorting to rides and antics. What perhaps should be discouraged is the establishment of tourist oriented camps in the south where elephants were never part of the culture. But by all means, support the camps that align with your personal politics.

You have some good thoughts but threatening culling is just plain not true. Elephant = $$$ Would someone smash their pickup into a tree because he could not afford petrol? Of course not.

Culling is an option. Not every elephant finds employment. Not every camp has room for a new animal at a moment's notice. Elephants can cost a lot of money to the owner if not employed and many of the owners are rather poor. Only the camps make the big money, not the owners and most certainly not the mahouts. If an elephant happens to wander into someone's fields, the owner is liable for damage, something I can attest to from personal experience. One can always sell the pickup truck, it is not as easy as you think to sell an elephant. Et's beeding program up at Mae Sa is pretty successful, as are the programs at the camps up at Mae Tang. They all share the same group of vets. These camps don't often need to buy new stock. And for what the jerks who operate the camps down south will pay, you are better of mercifully killing the beast and selling the meat then sending the animals down to live in misery.

[DaamNaam]

A picture tells a thousand words.

Enough of the dribble, just watch this.

[FolkGuitar]

Interesting video. Can we now see some videos of humane treatment of elephants so we get a balanced understanding?

There is no question that there are unscrupulous people involved. They are involved in every money-making operation in every field in every country. It's a problem. It's not an elephant care problem.

DaamNaam, since we didn't get an answer to my question from junglechef or lovetotravel, I'll ask you;

Who will feed the elephants?

Junglechef, I didn't ask you what charitable organizations you supported although you chose to tell us. It's most commendable, though none of our business.

But I did ask you a question applicable to this thread: Who will feed the elephants if the shows close down? Lek can't take them all, nor can the other preserves. There is no longer enough natural habitat to feed them all. According to this video, there are 6,000 elephants in Thailand.

So who will feed the elephants if the tourists stop coming?

Edited August 24, 2013 by FolkGuitar

[Johpa]

Enough of the dribble, just watch this.

If informed opinion is dribble to you then why bother to visit this forum?

[DaamNaam]

Enough of the dribble, just watch this.

If informed opinion is dribble to you then why bother to visit this forum?

It's a public forum. I'll do as i please. But thanks for your concern (aka dribble)...

I've sat down with Lek and discussed this issue at length. The treatment of these creatures at most of the tourist places is well below humane standards.

You can try and justify it all you like. makes no difference to me.

The sun the moon and the truth, etc , etc...None can be hidden.

[Johpa]

Enough of the dribble, just watch this.

If informed opinion is dribble to you then why bother to visit this forum?

It's a public forum. I'll do as i please. But thanks for your concern (aka dribble)...

I've sat down with Lek and discussed this issue at length. The treatment of these creatures at most of the tourist places is well below humane standards.

You can try and justify it all you like. makes no difference to me.

The sun the moon and the truth, etc , etc...None can be hidden.

So is Lek willing to confront Khun Et with an accusation of treating his herd with below level standards and then take possesion of that herd and be able to provide even better care? Because as someone who owned an elephant for nearly 20 years, I kind of doubt it.

[FolkGuitar]

I've sat down with Lek and discussed this issue at length. The treatment of these creatures at most of the tourist places is well below humane standards.

You can try and justify it all you like. makes no difference to me.

The sun the moon and the truth, etc , etc...None can be hidden.

So...does this mean that you don't have any constructive suggestions as to

how 6,000 elephants will be fed if you manage to stop the tourists from wanting to go to the shows?

Did you discuss this with her, or only talk about the inhumane treatment by a few mahouts.

Someone has to feed the elephants.

It's one thing (and a good thing) to want to stop the cruelty that does go on in a minority of the camps, perpetrated by a minority of the trainers.

It's another to make the entire animal population suffer because of the efforts to save a few.

The bottom line: Elephants need food. It has to come from the human population now. There is no other choice.

Edited August 25, 2013 by FolkGuitar

[lovetotravel]

Sorry folkguitar, but feeding them is not the #1 problem. I hear your concern, but I still believe avoiding places that use elephants for profit is a good thing to do. Just too many experts saying this to believe otherwise.

Scroll down to the solutions section. Habitat loss and poaching are the biggest problems. Habitat loss is related to food, but protection of that habitat seems to be what everybody is trying to do to help these magnificent creatures.

http://www.amnh.org/explore/science-bulletins/bio/documentaries/wild-at-heart-the-plight-of-elephants-in-thailand/asian-elephants-threats-and-solutions

This is a great report:

http://worldwildlife.org/species/asian-elephant

And this has some good info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_elephant#Conservation

In captivity




This stereotypical rhythmic swaying behaviour is not reported in free ranging wild elephants, and may be symptomatic of psychological disorders.


About half of the global zoo elephant population is kept in European zoos, where they have about half the median life span of conspecifics in protected populations in range countries. This discrepancy is clearest in Asian elephants: infant mortality is twice that seen in Burmese timber camps, and its adult survivorship in zoos has not improved significantly in recent years. One risk factor for Asian zoo elephants is being moved between institutions, with early removal from the mother tending to have additional adverse effects. Another risk factor is being born into a zoo rather than being imported from the wild, with poor adult survivorship in zoo-born Asians apparently being conferred prenatally or in early infancy. Likely causes for compromised survivorship is stress and/or obesity.^%5B44%5D
Demographic analysis of the captive Asian elephants in North America indicates that the population is not self-sustaining. First year mortality is nearly 30%, and the fecundity is extremely low throughout the prime reproductive years.^%5B45%5D Data from North American and European regional studbooks from 1962 to 2006 were analysed for deviation of the birth and juvenile death sex ratio. Of 349 captive calves born, 142 died prematurely. They died within 1 month of birth; major causes being stillbirth and infanticide by either the calf's own mother or by one of the exhibition mates. The sex ratio of stillbirths in Europe was found to have a tendency for excess of males.^%5B46%5D

[junglechef]

I feel this thread is going the way of many on TV with interpretation of posts being twisted to make a point but I'll stay involved for now as long as we play nice.

I would like to state that not only do I not have all or perhaps any answers to this or other problems affecting our world and most certainly am not an expert in this field nor very well versed.

Firstly I didn't say you asked about my charitable activities but that you brought up the subject by suggesting how I should employ mine and I thought it appropriate to explain them and why I'm not in a position to follow your request.

Both of these facts should not preclude me or anyone to bringing up a point in a public forum. My first foray into this topic was simply raising a concern of mine of some of the motivations of some of these organizations and if they were profit which you have since agreed with but implied it was off-topic.

And as for it being none of the TV families (our) business are you suggesting it's only appropriate to to bring up subjects that concern you? And keep them to limited to what exactly you want to discuss about them?

Out of interest, and just to add some weight to your comments what is your expertise and experience when it comes to elephants? Please do not take this as threatening as I often add some of my qualifications when posting about food.

I'll share with you a story about a foreign national I met at the gym who went on and on about how he was here working with elephants at one of the camps with lots of hubris and machoism. When I inquired about taking my kids he quoted something in the range of 10,000 bht. When I inquired suitability of the price for locals he said quite rightly that it's very expensive to care and feed these animals. As I tried to further the discussion of the economics wondering if it would benefit all by not pricing out many of the Thais his attitude was again aggressive. I feel that not only having a larger customer base as there are more Thais then tourists here, especially in off-season (i.e. special group price during this time), and every baht would help. But as important I thought was teaching the future generations of Thailand a respect and appreciation for their national symbol so they would have a concern for their plight and be interested in taking care of them in, especially the natural habitat of the wild ones. He didn't have time for this and simply showed an arrogance for the locals and really for the elephant's future. The wasted opportunity bothered me and only made me assume that today's profit was more important than the pachyderms of today and the future.

I am confused about the breeding programs that Johpa mentions. If there is not enough natural habitat for releasing them and not enough money to feed the existing animals why are they doing this? If it's secure future generations what are the plans to secure funding to feed and care for them? Are their numbers so low that this is necessary? And are they all going to be protected for a happy life free of abuse? I appreciate your knowledge in considering there questions.

Edited August 25, 2013 by junglechef

[CMSteve]

You have faulty logic.

By you logic:

Watch this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpC7xjuqHBs

"All American dog owners are bad people"? "Raising dogs is taking advantage of the species?" "Carefordogs is the ONLY place that does not hurt dogs"?

I think everyone can agree that there have been some horrible mis-treatments of elephants here in Thailand and the rest of the world, but by seeing a few instances and listening to a person who has a vested interest in people not going to other camps, does not mean the whole industry/country/caring for the species is bad.

Everyone with pets, children, younger siblings, or students knows that their are two ways of teaching behaviors. You can react to negative actions with loud voice, beatings, torture etc, or react to positive actions with positive reinforcements like praise, encouragement, treats, etc. Why does everyone automatically believe it that only negative enforcements are used all across the board when it comes to elephants? It seems that someone has grown a huge business and is making lots of money by pushing this thinking....

A picture tells a thousand words.

Enough of the dribble, just watch this.

[junglechef]

Could you please substantiate your claims of who has vested interest in not going to other camps. I am totally ignorant on this subject and am by no means taking any sides with any particular individual but think it's important to know as how to interpret their posts as well as yours.

[CMSteve]

There is a camp in town that does not let people ride the elephants, they show a video or a baby elephant being broken/tortured and they insinuate that they are the only camp that takes in hurt animals, etc etc. If you ever get a chance, look over the travel sites. You will always hear from a couple of people that have drank the punch. They will take the stance where "You can only go to XXX as all others are cruel!!"

Take a look at the local camps/offices/vans when you are in town. Which camp has the largest, prime location? Which camp has the shiny silver tour vans?

[hellodolly]

Exactly. Don't ride them, full stop / period.

Go and vist Elephant Nature Park and see what Lek Chailert is doing up there.

She rescues them from these tourist traps.

The only one worth a visit.

http://www.elephantnaturepark.org

Lek does an excellent job rescuing elephants who are being mistreated, and is to be commended for her work.

Unfortunately, her Nature Park only supports a couple of elephants. These big beasts require a massive amount of food daily and her property is only just large enough for just a few animals. It would be wonderful if we could remove the towns, villages, resorts, and condominiums that have taken away the natural habitat of the Asian elephant, but that's not going to happen. We'll continue to build more and more, so there is less and less space in the wild for these magnificent animals to feed and live.

The larger Elephant camps, when properly run, support 20-40 elephants. They can afford to feed and care (good veterinary care) so many animals because of all the tourist money coming in. Years ago, before the laws changed to prohibit logging in Thailand, elephants earned their food by daily work... just as you and me. Then their work was stopped by government action, but these same laws made no provisions for feeding the workers. So what do you do with hundreds and hundreds of elephants who need food every day?

There really are only two choices available today;

Kill them

Put them back to work doing something else so they can earn their food. The only work available right now are the shows. That work is certainly easier than hauling huge trees through the jungle all day. Today, the elephants work for about 2-3 hours a day, get good food and great care (in the properly run camps, which are the majority. There are some that are not so good,) and the rest of the day is theirs to relax. I'm sure most humans would love to have a job in which they only had to work 2-3 hours to support themselves.

Some folks think it's demeaning to have an elephant perform like this. Is it any more demeaning than a Hollywood actor, a Nashville singer, or a human circus performer? Spend some time around the elephants at the Mae Sa Elephant camp. 3-4 days there paying attention to the 'attitudes' of the elephants. I think you'll agree than many of them appear to actually enjoy the activities, especially the younger elephants. Hey, kids are kids, regardless of the species.

You hit a point there that I have always wondered about. Do the elephants enjoy the show and the attention?

I in no way agree with some of the barbaric ways of training them that some would have us believe all of them go through. But even if they do go through it what about the rest of their lives if they are fed and taken care of do they prefer that to being left untrained and locked up in a zoo for the rest of their life.

To say return them to the wild is barbaric as we are wiping out the habitat and it would leave them open for poachers and starvation. If a camp is mistreating them shut it down. But consider first what you are going to do with the animal.

I strongly believe many not all of the people who complain about the way they are trained when it is a harsh manor would do nothing them selves to help the animal other than complain.

They are like all most all the anti abortionists back home dead set against even crusading against it yet not willing to raise one finger to help an unwanted baby.

[DaamNaam]

Exactly. Don't ride them, full stop / period.

Go and vist Elephant Nature Park and see what Lek Chailert is doing up there.

She rescues them from these tourist traps.

The only one worth a visit.

http://www.elephantnaturepark.org

Lek does an excellent job rescuing elephants who are being mistreated, and is to be commended for her work.

Unfortunately, her Nature Park only supports a couple of elephants. These big beasts require a massive amount of food daily and her property is only just large enough for just a few animals. It would be wonderful if we could remove the towns, villages, resorts, and condominiums that have taken away the natural habitat of the Asian elephant, but that's not going to happen. We'll continue to build more and more, so there is less and less space in the wild for these magnificent animals to feed and live.

The larger Elephant camps, when properly run, support 20-40 elephants. They can afford to feed and care (good veterinary care) so many animals because of all the tourist money coming in. Years ago, before the laws changed to prohibit logging in Thailand, elephants earned their food by daily work... just as you and me. Then their work was stopped by government action, but these same laws made no provisions for feeding the workers. So what do you do with hundreds and hundreds of elephants who need food every day?

There really are only two choices available today;

Kill them

Put them back to work doing something else so they can earn their food. The only work available right now are the shows. That work is certainly easier than hauling huge trees through the jungle all day. Today, the elephants work for about 2-3 hours a day, get good food and great care (in the properly run camps, which are the majority. There are some that are not so good,) and the rest of the day is theirs to relax. I'm sure most humans would love to have a job in which they only had to work 2-3 hours to support themselves.

Some folks think it's demeaning to have an elephant perform like this. Is it any more demeaning than a Hollywood actor, a Nashville singer, or a human circus performer? Spend some time around the elephants at the Mae Sa Elephant camp. 3-4 days there paying attention to the 'attitudes' of the elephants. I think you'll agree than many of them appear to actually enjoy the activities, especially the younger elephants. Hey, kids are kids, regardless of the species.

You hit a point there that I have always wondered about. Do the elephants enjoy the show and the attention?

I in no way agree with some of the barbaric ways of training them that some would have us believe all of them go through. But even if they do go through it what about the rest of their lives if they are fed and taken care of do they prefer that to being left untrained and locked up in a zoo for the rest of their life.

To say return them to the wild is barbaric as we are wiping out the habitat and it would leave them open for poachers and starvation. If a camp is mistreating them shut it down. But consider first what you are going to do with the animal.

I strongly believe many not all of the people who complain about the way they are trained when it is a harsh manor would do nothing them selves to help the animal other than complain.

They are like all most all the anti abortionists back home dead set against even crusading against it yet not willing to raise one finger to help an unwanted baby.

I'm a regular helper at ENP.

Be careful who you judge.

I practice what i preach.

What have you done about it?

[hellodolly]

.................... Having spoken to some of the forieng proffesional elephant expert workers here i am concerned on what is considered good care and how much money is a factor in deciding this.

Being concerned is good. Feeding the elephants is better. Have you done that?

Why not 'adopt' an elephant and feed it. Go up to the Mae Sa camp, introduce yourself to a Mahout, and ask him if you can pay for the elephants food for the rest of its life... We can't just stop feeding them while we solve the problem, no matter how concerned we are.

I feel I've been misquotes or at least misunderstood as the concern I was referring to was if the priorities of the some of the caregivers was for these magnificent beasts or the profit that can be made from them.

As for my personal choices of where to allocate my resources for charitable causes is not really the issue here and I only wish they were vast enough to help all of them I feel worthy. But since you brought it up I do a lot for a local orphanage and hope you don't judge me for choosing these needy children.

When I have wanted to see elephants here I have in the wild at far more inconvenience but with much more reward for me and my family and feel the appreciation for them my boys got was a lot more than seeing them painting and playing football.

I wish you the best with your efforts, whatever they are, and hope they are helping and not adding to the problem.

I am with Folk Guitar on this one. I see no difference if the animal is well cared for whether they make a profit or not. I can not understand the idea that it is wrong to make a profit off of taking good care of the elephants. As I look out my window I can see why we can not just turn them all lose. All though I am sure it would be a poachers dream come true and eventually decimate the population to what the environment could handle.

On the other hand I would like to commend you on the idea of seeing them in the wild. (actually I am jealous) Unfortunately some of us can not do that. I in my time here in Thailand have been to several different Elephant camps and will no longer ride one as that was an experience nothing more. If I have guests I will take them out to ride the elephant.

To be honest I do not have the strong feelings that many do. But if I did I would be out to Mai Sa more as It would be supporting the elephants.

That is my way or reasoning and obviously differs from many others.

I also commend you on the charity to the orphanages. In a way I feel the same. Thailand's future is in it's kids and I lend my efforts towards the education of my extended Thai family.

Do you like the paragraphs?

[hellodolly]

Exactly. Don't ride them, full stop / period.

Go and vist Elephant Nature Park and see what Lek Chailert is doing up there.

She rescues them from these tourist traps.

The only one worth a visit.

http://www.elephantnaturepark.org

Lek does an excellent job rescuing elephants who are being mistreated, and is to be commended for her work.

Unfortunately, her Nature Park only supports a couple of elephants. These big beasts require a massive amount of food daily and her property is only just large enough for just a few animals. It would be wonderful if we could remove the towns, villages, resorts, and condominiums that have taken away the natural habitat of the Asian elephant, but that's not going to happen. We'll continue to build more and more, so there is less and less space in the wild for these magnificent animals to feed and live.

The larger Elephant camps, when properly run, support 20-40 elephants. They can afford to feed and care (good veterinary care) so many animals because of all the tourist money coming in. Years ago, before the laws changed to prohibit logging in Thailand, elephants earned their food by daily work... just as you and me. Then their work was stopped by government action, but these same laws made no provisions for feeding the workers. So what do you do with hundreds and hundreds of elephants who need food every day?

There really are only two choices available today;

Kill them

Put them back to work doing something else so they can earn their food. The only work available right now are the shows. That work is certainly easier than hauling huge trees through the jungle all day. Today, the elephants work for about 2-3 hours a day, get good food and great care (in the properly run camps, which are the majority. There are some that are not so good,) and the rest of the day is theirs to relax. I'm sure most humans would love to have a job in which they only had to work 2-3 hours to support themselves.

Some folks think it's demeaning to have an elephant perform like this. Is it any more demeaning than a Hollywood actor, a Nashville singer, or a human circus performer? Spend some time around the elephants at the Mae Sa Elephant camp. 3-4 days there paying attention to the 'attitudes' of the elephants. I think you'll agree than many of them appear to actually enjoy the activities, especially the younger elephants. Hey, kids are kids, regardless of the species.

You hit a point there that I have always wondered about. Do the elephants enjoy the show and the attention?

I in no way agree with some of the barbaric ways of training them that some would have us believe all of them go through. But even if they do go through it what about the rest of their lives if they are fed and taken care of do they prefer that to being left untrained and locked up in a zoo for the rest of their life.

To say return them to the wild is barbaric as we are wiping out the habitat and it would leave them open for poachers and starvation. If a camp is mistreating them shut it down. But consider first what you are going to do with the animal.

I strongly believe many not all of the people who complain about the way they are trained when it is a harsh manor would do nothing them selves to help the animal other than complain.

They are like all most all the anti abortionists back home dead set against even crusading against it yet not willing to raise one finger to help an unwanted baby.

I'm a regular helper at ENP.

Be careful who you judge.

I practice what i preach.

What have you done about it?

Well first off I don't even have a clue as to what ENP is and secondly I do nothing about abortion neither condemn it or OK it.

As for the elephants I have no idea of what their life is like but I do know that they can not be returned to the wild. As I said if a camp is mistreating them shut it down. I also wondered if the animals enjoyed the show and the attention.

In short I have no idea what you are talking about.