Does Face Make Creative Thought Impossible?

[girlx]

OP i agree that in general this is true. but i have met some more artistic and maybe rebellious thai people who are more outspoken about who they are. i agree face (with the opposing feeling of shame or -gasp!- embarassment) is a serious detriment to thailand. i also agree with an above poster who said that's the way i like it... if i didn't like it i wouldn't be here.

[jamman]

I think it is a very interesting question the OP has brought up, and that's all it was... a question.

I am sorry ... what was the "question"?

Are you really unable to see the question, JD? If so, it sure looks like you have some mental blocks and taboos limiting your vision.

Do you agree, or disagree with Orwell, that if there are some things we are not supposed to think or say, it will in generall hamper our overall ability to think creatively? Do you think that Face makes it harder to discuss some things publicly? If yes to #1 and yes to #2, shouldn't the conclusion be that Face hampers free thinking and free expression?

[Ollie]

I think it is a very interesting question the OP has brought up, and that's all it was... a question.

I am sorry ... what was the "question"?

Are you really unable to see the question, JD? If so, it sure looks like you have some mental blocks and taboos limiting your vision.

Do you agree, or disagree with Orwell, that if there are some things we are not supposed to think or say, it will in generall hamper our overall ability to think creatively? Do you think that Face makes it harder to discuss some things publicly? If yes to #1 and yes to #2, shouldn't the conclusion be that Face hampers free thinking and free expression?

Just why are you askling the question if, as appears, you seem certain of the answer?

Is there any chance you can talk in plain English? You might get a Crystal mark!

Edited April 17, 2006 by Ollie

[jamman]

I dont see how face causes mental blockages like you say, Japan have face too and they dont have "mental blockage" like you have said.

And how does face hamper free thought??

"Face" is where you are supposed to be ultra tactful to the point of not being critical of someone or something. Face is where you find it very difficult to be publicly criticised. Both are examples of not being allowed to express things - you are not allowed to be critical or be critisized. If there is some taboo subject, some subject that is not supposed to be mentioned or talked about, that causes mental blockages because you have to be careful not to talk about something that might allude to, or bring up that subject. So generally you can't think honestly and straightforwardly and directly. You have to pussy foot and dance diplomatically around subjects and blind yourself to harsh realities that might cause someone - yourself or others - to lose face.

There you go again, Jamman.

I would only half agree with you on "Face Make Creative Thought Impossible". The situation as you mentioned makes people think even more, be more creative and imaginative in order to solve the problems, as they are not allowed to say things out directly. For example, in ancient China, those who live around and serve the emperor have to be really smart in order to survive. There were always situations where neither the truth or a lie can be told.

If you truly are interested in the subject, and truly believe what you said, and are not merely creating an argument to bolster an opinion that you are most comfortable with, you may be interested to read more on the subject. The essay I quoted Orwell from talks directly on this exact subject of needing to speak carefully around the politically powerful, and how instead of that making thought more careful and clear, distorts the thinking process itself.

The original essay is here http://www.george-orwell.org/The_Preventio...terature/0.html

Edited April 17, 2006 by jamman

[jamman]

I think it is a very interesting question the OP has brought up, and that's all it was... a question.

I am sorry ... what was the "question"?

Are you really unable to see the question, JD? If so, it sure looks like you have some mental blocks and taboos limiting your vision.

Do you agree, or disagree with Orwell, that if there are some things we are not supposed to think or say, it will in generall hamper our overall ability to think creatively? Do you think that Face makes it harder to discuss some things publicly? If yes to #1 and yes to #2, shouldn't the conclusion be that Face hampers free thinking and free expression?

Just why are you askling the question if, as appears, you seem certain of the answer?

Is there any chance you can talk in plain English? You might get a Crystal mark!

Ollie, are you completely incapable of directly addressing the question? All you have done so far is to try to invalidate it, to say that it is a question that should not or need not be asked, that it is a silly question, an irrelevent question, blah blah. You seem incapable of actually directly dealing with the question itself.

[meemiathai]

If there are human beings living in Mars, would they be more or less creative than the ones who grew up on earth?

[robitusson]

I think it is a very interesting question the OP has brought up, and that's all it was... a question.

I am sorry ... what was the "question"?

Are you really unable to see the question, JD? If so, it sure looks like you have some mental blocks and taboos limiting your vision.

Do you agree, or disagree with Orwell, that if there are some things we are not supposed to think or say, it will in generall hamper our overall ability to think creatively? Do you think that Face makes it harder to discuss some things publicly? If yes to #1 and yes to #2, shouldn't the conclusion be that Face hampers free thinking and free expression?

Is that what the post was asking? I thought it was something along the lines of; do you agree that Thais can't think like us? and here's an Orwell quote to read while you think about it.

Edited April 17, 2006 by robitusson

[Ollie]

I think it is a very interesting question the OP has brought up, and that's all it was... a question.

I am sorry ... what was the "question"?

Are you really unable to see the question, JD? If so, it sure looks like you have some mental blocks and taboos limiting your vision.

Do you agree, or disagree with Orwell, that if there are some things we are not supposed to think or say, it will in generall hamper our overall ability to think creatively? Do you think that Face makes it harder to discuss some things publicly? If yes to #1 and yes to #2, shouldn't the conclusion be that Face hampers free thinking and free expression?

Just why are you askling the question if, as appears, you seem certain of the answer?

Is there any chance you can talk in plain English? You might get a Crystal mark!

Ollie, are you completely incapable of directly addressing the question? All you have done so far is to try to invalidate it, to say that it is a question that should not or need not be asked, that it is a silly question, an irrelevent question, blah blah. You seem incapable of actually directly dealing with the question itself.

Thats because I regard it as invalid! I will bow out now as I have nothing further to add - as you have noted. One suggestion, try to be less "up" yourself, you might get a more sympathetic response.

[usatrader]

What I read between the lines of the original post, is the persistent incomprehensibilities that exist between the western and eastern mind speak, exampled in why for hundreds of years the Chinese with gun powder and rocketry technology never considered its use as weapon of war. While, in short order, after its offering to those of the western think speak, is was as a natural and obvious conclusion as to its use.

In words of an often disgusting but as well enlightening mentality, H.L. Mencken;

Philosophy consists very largely of one philosopher arguing that

all others are jackasses. He usually proves it, and I should add that

he also usually proves that he is one himself.

[jdinasia]

I think it is a very interesting question the OP has brought up, and that's all it was... a question.

I am sorry ... what was the "question"?

Are you really unable to see the question, JD? If so, it sure looks like you have some mental blocks and taboos limiting your vision.

Do you agree, or disagree with Orwell, that if there are some things we are not supposed to think or say, it will in generall hamper our overall ability to think creatively? Do you think that Face makes it harder to discuss some things publicly? If yes to #1 and yes to #2, shouldn't the conclusion be that Face hampers free thinking and free expression?

Read through your original post and point out the question ......

but now that you posted it here ...I do disagree with your conclusions about Orwell and what he was saying. He was stating that a writer needed to free himself from taboos to write creatively ... (I disagree with that as well --- but it is the context of what he was writing)

Do I think that "face" makes it more difficult todiscuss things publicly? Yes again ... Face and "greeng jai" are related and perhaps similar to people that do not quite understand them. They are not the same. How can one "lose face" by telling a story? One CAN cause someone else to lose face and "greeng jai" will often prevent that but again what does it have to do with telling a story?

Your conclusion yet agains states that you are NOT asking a question .... but stating an opinion "Face hampers free thinking and free expression. (Not that those 2 things are related either. What someone chooses to express is not the same thing as their ability to think).

Did you really THINK this through? or did you just expect people to agree out of Greeng jai?

[Prakanong2005]

There are more taboos in SEA than you can shake a stick at.

My experience is the minds have been so securely locked away that it is impossible for the person to have free thought. They simply cannot find the key, its gone.

Sad, but after 13 years I'm convinced it is the case. Maybe in another couple of generations...

I agree but does not Singapore which is given as an example of a country *city state) doing well not have a lot more restrictions or taboo's than most?

[meemiathai]

There are more taboos in SEA than you can shake a stick at.

My experience is the minds have been so securely locked away that it is impossible for the person to have free thought. They simply cannot find the key, its gone.

Sad, but after 13 years I'm convinced it is the case. Maybe in another couple of generations...

I'm a bit curious though why you chose to stay in SEA.

[jamman]

The original post asked the question does Face make people boring. Below are some other negative consequences to face that I've noticed.

The catchphrase used in SE Asia "up 2 u".

“I don't trust you because you lie.”, I say. "Up 2 u.!" she retorts. ““No, not up to me. I don't move your lips. If you lie, up to you. If you lie, then I don't trust you.”

“I'm tired of your games and manipulation.”, I comment. "Up 2 u!" God gracious, what an insane cultural trait this avoidance of all personal responsibility for ones own actions! Up 2 you, up 2 you.

It seems they refuse to exist. All motivations and responsibilities are exterior. “Up to you.” “I can't because my brother won't let me.” “My father wants me to marry.” “Yes, I agree with you. And yes, I agree with you, with the opposite opinion.” Agree without taking a real stand, agree without being consistent, so no problem. No self, no problem. With that sense of no responsibility for anything said, and no importance attached to a personal stance, lies are flippant and expected. Truth is not hard, just not useful. No one has cultured a taste of it. It is irrelevant. There is no self who maintains opinions and hold responsibilities anyway, so no use to cultivate any allegiance to a silly abstraction like truth. It wouldn't make one a better person to be an honest person who can take an informed and thoughtful and moral stand on an issue that she believes, irrespective of what others believe. A person is bettered by being pragmatic about circumstances, doing whatever is convenient. Deep thought about deeper meanings about what is happiness need never impinge upon blissful ignorance. Mai pen rai remains the best and most insightful mantra. The nihilism in that protects all from embarrassment Don't think too much. Don't think at all, and if it causes pain, forget it.

No wonder a lot of us drink a lot when in Thailand – it is impossible to communicate verbally with much depth to those who derail the conversation whenever it gets a bit sticky or tricky, so we have to find our entertainments in other ways. Sex and alcohol seems to work.

Asians are not straightforward. Everything seems to be some sort of negotiation, and everyone is expected to not disclose their hand. The other morning my cell phone was off because of a dead battery, and there was a power outage until late afternoon. My playmate freaked, assuming I was ######ing. There became no way to be straightforward – everything I said was interpreted as some sort of strategic lie. And then everything she said was a strategic lie. She starts saying how she hates me and will never see me again, when the day before it was that she loves me and wants my baby. So I tell her that I am a western guy, and that I am straightforward, and that I don’t' bullshit around - I aim exactly at what I want mean and I say it with words that mean exactly what I mean. If she wants me to love her, then say yes and I will, if not say no and I'll find someone who wants my love. That shook her up enough to start to change the subject, but I swear she was really getting off on the drama of the whole thing, and didn't seem to care one way or the other if I was telling the truth or if she was telling the truth. Truth totally left the picture. Reality had nothing to do with anything. She just wanted to show me how much jealousy she was capable of, and to show me that she was prepared to freak if I did anything that made her jealous. It's tiring. That constant mis-trust and emotional manipulation never once happened to me in the west. If I said something, it was either believed, or if the person thought I had such a character that I was lying, then there wasn't really much more to talk about – no need to continue the relationship. What is the point of talking if it is a lie?

Asians use language fundamentally differently - this has been noted in business manuals. At the negotiating table, Asians spiral around and about, as if getting to the point would cause everyone physical pain and reveal embarrassing genital flaws and long unspoken family shames. They often will purposefully obfuscate, puffing clouds of words at your direct questions, diverting question from hitting answer. Compound that onto feminine guile onto pre-rational unempathetic selfishly motivated confused and mixed desires, and what you've got is slush over ice on an ice floe on water. No traction, and even if you get anywhere, you aren't going anywhere. "How does that make you feel?" can not be translated into any Asian language. It would be heard as "What would you like to present as your face regarding this difficult and awkward issue, or would you prefer to remain silent or change the subject just now?" In Asia you aren't expected to look like a stupid ass if you giggle or twitter or otherwise completely avoid an unstoppably direct question as if it were not a twenty thousand pound elephant thwapping its trunk onto your forehead. Other people would be expected to show deference to you by not noticing elephants.

" Even if the love is real, the words you hear are somewhat less than genuine, because they’re said for effect rather than a natural outpouring of emotion. " - Lookpapa

Yes, language is used fundamentally differently here in SE Asia. Instead of to convey what actually is, as if there is a real external world worth talking about and real inner worlds worth disclosing, it is mostly used to emotionally manipulate and to create advantage. People say either what they think you want to hear, or deliberately try to throw you off balance to gain an emotional advantage over you, or invent some lie, to see how you will react, in order to try to find out your "real" motives. Thais don't and can't understand this: that westerners do not lie. The can not grasp the abstract concept of "truth". It is totally without meaning to them. They do not and will never trust you.

Every word is always said for effect.

How ######ing boring is that?

[mark45y]

If I remember right Thai’s did not have sir names till 1918 or thereabouts. They were a very primitive people judged by the standards of Western technology. They lived in little villages and farmed while the giants of the world were making machines and making war, writing great literature and painting great art. So you are judging them based or your culture.

Japan and Singapore have made incredible leaps of technology and infrastructure based on Western standards as have some parts of China. Japan and China made those leaps almost unassisted by Western influence. Although one might point to the British influence in China and the post WWII American influence in Japan.

I think you are missing some major points of history. Thailand emerged almost unscathed from WWII and Vietnam. Thailand was also not colonized like every other country in SE Asia. I was here in 1968 and came back two years ago. Thailand has made dramatic strides in that time. I don’t think it has much to do with face.

I think it has to do with an agrarian people coming into the modern world. I also don’t think it is fair to compare Japan, China and Thailand.

Japan and China were far more advanced 100 years ago than Thailand. The reasons are many and too complicated to go into in the short space of this post. I think it is reasonable to compare Laos, Cambodia and Burma to Thailand. I think Thailand stands up well to the comparison.

I think it is difficult to conduct business in Thailand and I think education is difficult in Thailand and I think government in Thailand is difficult.

If I was the supreme leader could I double the GNP in 12 months? Sure no problem if everyone would go along with my ideas. I would open the country up for investment and make it a paradise for foreign capital, banking and manufacturing. I would offer free land and free buildings for anyone wanting to start a division of a high tech company here. I would make an English proficiency examination mandatory for anyone wanting to matriculate from 8th grade. I would legalize a lot of entertainment industries that are not now legal and demand HIV testing. I would brew at least one good English beer locally. Really how hard could it be to import one decent brew master and let him work his trade here? Does anyone have any idea how much cash that would generate? I would put napkins on the tables and toilet paper in the rest rooms.

I am sure everyone else has ten ideas along this line.

So why doesn’t Thailand want to be successful in the Western sense? Face? No I don’t think that is the answer.

With minor tweaking of economic policies they could get 30% more foreign capital entering the country next year.

I think the fault lies with Thai women. Thai society has to have some professors and government officials who have some understanding of macro economics and the basic laws of supply and demand.

Let’s say Mr. Middle aged Nung Ponaporn PHD Economics from Harvard gets up and goes to work at his high level government ministry job. He eats with the wife and kids and so far the day is going good. Today is the day he is going propose his earth shattering proposal for economic reform. He walks outside and enters his BMW and sees the first uni student riding side saddle on a motor sci, then another, then another. That reminds him of his mia noi, who he picks up for a second breakfast. By the time he gets to his office he is a little tired and it is only the vision of his secretary in her shorter than short, tighter than tight skirt that revives him.

By now its lunch time and he takes her to lunch and the short time hotel around the corner. He cancels his next three meetings for a nap and meets the boys at the local Karaoke club for drinks and ladies at 5PM. Dinner is next at the local restaurant with the VIP room and the VIP girls. He drags his butt home at 7 and tells his wife he had a tortuous day.

The problem is not face but the word does start with an F. Is it any wonder that progress in Western terms is not made. Given my average day here I am amazed that Thai working men get anything done at all. By the same reasoning it is fairly obvious to see why so much progress is made in the West.

I had the choice of living in a progressive Western country just overflowing with productivity and creativity. I made the same choice as Mr. Ponaporn. No I am not going the theater every night to be stimulated by thought provoking plays like the vagina chronicles. I am not reading much breathtaking Thai fiction. I am not wondering at amazement at the ten new ways Bill Gates and Microsoft have figured out how to rip me off. I am not paying taxes for a war I think is unjust and immoral.

I am just hanging out in the hood with Pan, and Mem and Da talking about face and the effect of it on Thai creativity.

[Plus]

I see nothing specific to disagree with the original Orwell's quote or the original poster's idea.

If you asked ME to tell a story, original story, personal story, whatever, I'd happily oblige, BUT my story will be told for the audience.

If there are Jews in the audience, I'd try to avoid any Jewish twist, or think very hard to make it acceptable to them. Anti-semitism is presumably a taboo topic for them, even though I think it's a great source of jokes. Should I tell them one? Only after I carefully assess their possible reactions and word it in the most humorous and non-offensive way.

Do taboos like that block my mind? Of course yes! Do I enjoy challenges of breaking through the blocks? Of course yes, if it's successful. If I'm not sure, I'll avoid the subject altogether. It's a lot of fun when done on the spot, that's what makes story-telling so appealing - it's custom made and it's brain-work at it's highest.

That's also what most Thais do - if they are not sure they can tell an all pleasing story for everyone listening, they'll just shut up and wait for a better chance. Not everyone can break through all the taboos assosiated with "face" and social hierarchy here. Occasionally it happens. Take that much discussed "Ai na liam" song. It's very unThai, yet it didn't bring any usual responces assosiated with breaking the usual taboos in most people. It was so clever it worked through taboos.

Back to the Orwell's quote - is it possible to "free think" without any regard for you audience? I think it would be called paranoia. Do thoughts without any possible communication object even exist? Does anyone think of anything without some correspondents in mind, even imaginary ones? Even when people judge something in their minds they compare it to something or someone who shares their views.

So yes, Orwell was certainly right that taboos inhibit free thinking, but they also push it to achieve higher standards and higher awareness.

[meemiathai]

jamman, are you saying that you NEVER ever lie?

[meemiathai]

that westerners do not lie.

Just where are you from? I just thought when they lie, they are better at it than thais.

Edited April 17, 2006 by meemiathai

[Plus]

While I was typing my post Jamman wrote a long diatribe and ruined his somewhat "intellegent" image. Shame. Happens to people when they drink. I''m drunk now, too.

As a drunk to a drunk, things you are talking about are thought very deeply by Thais and what they tell you in your face is just a glimpse of all the thoughts they have accumulated in their brains.

Take this jealosy trip, for example. Sometimes it works, but clearly not in your case. Don't freak about it. She would have done anyways, she was just not too subtle about this. Let it go. Take a notice for the future.

>>>>>>>>>

Bottom line - you CAN find Thais smarter and more free-thinking than you, but is it what you are actually looking for?

[Griffin]

Jamman! You will spend more time defending your question than getting answers on this site. There are far too many people who chant "all is well" on this site and will suggest you "go back from whence you came" the moment you say something that does not show you love Thailand. These people forget that they must have moaned about their country at some point.

You are right however, Thais have very little imagination. I see it in my wife's family. I am not so sure it is due to 'face' but maybe it has something to do with education and exposure to sources of other peoples imagination. Thais, as a rule, don't read or watch/produce movies or songs with any profound meaning. They come across nothing but bubble gum pop, infantile tv shows and movies that would be straight to video in any other country. So there is nothing to kick start a healthy imagination.

How can one dream of other worlds, spies or adventure when one is exposed to nothing more than a diet of ninja comics and inane tv shows?

Having said that Thais are FAR from stupid. When given the chance to express an idea, albeit one that is prompted and suggested whithin a rigid frame, and away from other Thais, they are able to do so. They are simply not used to doing so. Thais will often admit that.

In answer to G. Orwell. Yes! I do think that that enforced taboos hinder the thought process. You only have to look at how political correctness stifles free thought in the west. We are unable to say what we think in case we upset someone, regardless of weather our view is true or not.

[jdinasia]

The original post asked the question does Face make people boring. Below are some other negative consequences to face that I've noticed.

The catchphrase used in SE Asia "up 2 u".

“I don't trust you because you lie.”, I say. "Up 2 u.!" she retorts. ““No, not up to me. I don't move your lips. If you lie, up to you. If you lie, then I don't trust you.”

Wow ... again you confuse things. You say "I don't trust you because you lie" She hears "I want to fight" so she replies with "up to you" ... Like you wouldn't hear "yes Dear" in your home country .. or just get a frying pan to the head.

“I'm tired of your games and manipulation.”, I comment. "Up 2 u!" God gracious, what an insane cultural trait this avoidance of all personal responsibility for ones own actions! Up 2 you, up 2 you.

you say "I am tired of your games and manipulation" she hears "I want to fight" and replies "Up to you" which in this case is "<deleted> off"

It seems they refuse to exist. All motivations and responsibilities are exterior. “Up to you.” “I can't because my brother won't let me.” “My father wants me to marry.” “Yes, I agree with you. And yes, I agree with you, with the opposite opinion.” Agree without taking a real stand, agree without being consistent, so no problem. No self, no problem. With that sense of no responsibility for anything said, and no importance attached to a personal stance, lies are flippant and expected. Truth is not hard, just not useful. No one has cultured a taste of it. It is irrelevant. There is no self who maintains opinions and hold responsibilities anyway, so no use to cultivate any allegiance to a silly abstraction like truth. It wouldn't make one a better person to be an honest person who can take an informed and thoughtful and moral stand on an issue that she believes, irrespective of what others believe. A person is bettered by being pragmatic about circumstances, doing whatever is convenient. Deep thought about deeper meanings about what is happiness need never impinge upon blissful ignorance. Mai pen rai remains the best and most insightful mantra. The nihilism in that protects all from embarrassment Don't think too much. Don't think at all, and if it causes pain, forget it.

What a load of drivel ... so someone doesn't want to fight with you and it's the cultural thing? Could it just be YOU? But I guess maybe you haven't been here long enough to meet Thais that are your social equal. You could be describing the 1950 male/female dynamic in the USA .... but you ARE describing the dynamic of a batterer/battered spouse now. Doesn't take lifting your hand to be abusive.

No wonder a lot of us drink a lot when in Thailand – it is impossible to communicate verbally with much depth to those who derail the conversation whenever it gets a bit sticky or tricky, so we have to find our entertainments in other ways. Sex and alcohol seems to work.

That would pretty well describe a pattern that would be common amongst batterers too.

Asians are not straightforward. Everything seems to be some sort of negotiation, and everyone is expected to not disclose their hand. The other morning my cell phone was off because of a dead battery, and there was a power outage until late afternoon. My playmate freaked, assuming I was ######ing. There became no way to be straightforward – everything I said was interpreted as some sort of strategic lie. It couldn't be the drinking and sex .... plus a history of hearing excuses from you and/or others?? And then everything she said was a strategic lie. She starts saying how she hates me and will never see me again, when the day before it was that she loves me and wants my baby. So I tell her that I am a western guy, and that I am straightforward, and that I don’t' bullshit around - I aim exactly at what I want mean and I say it with words that mean exactly what I mean. If she wants me to love her, then say yes and I will, if not say no and I'll find someone who wants my love. That shook her up enough to start to change the subject, but I swear she was really getting off on the drama of the whole thing, and didn't seem to care one way or the other if I was telling the truth or if she was telling the truth. Truth totally left the picture. Reality had nothing to do with anything. She just wanted to show me how much jealousy she was capable of, and to show me that she was prepared to freak if I did anything that made her jealous. It's tiring. That constant mis-trust and emotional manipulation never once happened to me in the west. If I said something, it was either believed, or if the person thought I had such a character that I was lying, then there wasn't really much more to talk about – no need to continue the relationship. What is the point of talking if it is a lie?

Your total agenda become clear with this thread at this point (if not at the very beginning of this post .... sorry I had to ruin the Orwell stuff you were trying to use just to rant about a personal problem with your "playmate"

Asians use language fundamentally differently - this has been noted in business manuals. At the negotiating table, Asians spiral around and about, as if getting to the point would cause everyone physical pain and reveal embarrassing genital flaws and long unspoken family shames. They often will purposefully obfuscate, puffing clouds of words at your direct questions, diverting question from hitting answer. Compound that onto feminine guile onto pre-rational unempathetic selfishly motivated confused and mixed desires, and what you've got is slush over ice on an ice floe on water. No traction, and even if you get anywhere, you aren't going anywhere. "How does that make you feel?" can not be translated into any Asian language. It would be heard as "What would you like to present as your face regarding this difficult and awkward issue, or would you prefer to remain silent or change the subject just now?" In Asia you aren't expected to look like a stupid ass if you giggle or twitter or otherwise completely avoid an unstoppably direct question as if it were not a twenty thousand pound elephant thwapping its trunk onto your forehead. Other people would be expected to show deference to you by not noticing elephants.

OK ... we get it ... you don't understand Asia ... particularly the women! We have no idea where you are meeting your "playmates" but we could probably accurately guess.

" Even if the love is real, the words you hear are somewhat less than genuine, because they’re said for effect rather than a natural outpouring of emotion. " - Lookpapa

Yes, language is used fundamentally differently here in SE Asia. Instead of to convey what actually is, as if there is a real external world worth talking about and real inner worlds worth disclosing, it is mostly used to emotionally manipulate and to create advantage. People say either what they think you want to hear, or deliberately try to throw you off balance to gain an emotional advantage over you, or invent some lie, to see how you will react, in order to try to find out your "real" motives. Thais don't and can't understand this: that westerners do not lie. The can not grasp the abstract concept of "truth". It is totally without meaning to them. They do not and will never trust you.

Every word is always said for effect.

How ######ing boring is that?

Actually your life doesn't sound boring ... just sounds like it confuses you. If you understood life here better you would probably see the results of your behaviour ... AND you'd probably understand that not everyone communicates the same way and that YOU ARE NOT INHERENTLY CORRECT ... in fact ... look out your window ... if you see Thailand then you are likely the "wrong" one. (But when you have been here long enough to understand ... your behavior will get better and you will begin to see things less as right and wrong)

[jdinasia]

"Even a single taboo can have an all-round crippling effect upon the mind, because there is always the danger that any thought which is freely followed up may lead to the forbidden thought... If (the writer) is to switch his allegiance at exactly the right moment, he must either tell lies about his subjective feelings, or else suppress them altogether. In either case he has destroyed his dynamo... the prose writer cannot narrow the range of his thoughts without killing his inventiveness... Unless spontaneity enters at some point or another, literary creation is impossible, and language itself becomes something totally different from what it is now, we may learn to separate literary creation from intellectual honesty. At present we know only that the imagination, like certain wild animals, will not breed in captivity" - George Orwell.

Ask a SE Asian to tell you a fictional story - to on the spot invent a tale. All that I have asked can not. Ok, maybe that skill is too complicated. Ask one to narrate any interesting instance of their life. Most not only will not, they CAN not. There are simply too many mental blocks - there is too much dangerous territory - will they reveal something about themselves? Must they take some sort of stand, betray an opinion? They will panick at the thought of free flowing yet structured thought, freeze, and claim that they "have no stories to tell". A Thai has no story - no history - no personal identity that can be shared. Because of the blocks to thinking imposed by face.

Sometimes someone is capable of narrating some personal events, but I've never heard a story told that included commentary. It will be a strict chronological telling of events that happened. Nothing will be mentioned of the meanings of events, their import to the person, their feelings about them, how they were affected or changed by them, how they see the world now because of the events. Strict narrative with no editorial. Meaningless, or at least, the meanings in the story must remain unconscious and unspoken, like meanings in a passing dream. Vaguely felt but not fully known, ephemeral, and relating to no real thing. The Thai remains semi-conscious, not articulating his history to himself, not making mental maps of meaning, not gathering and garnering potions of wisdom from his events. He just wades from moment to moment, semi literate, semi conscious. May pen rai. "You think too mutch", he will say, when you catch him in inconsistencies. He prefers his mental blocks and illogical catch22 paradoxes and blind spots to too much thinking or other painful clarities.

Now ... would the OP please Highlight his question in this (the original post?)

[jdinasia]

Having said that Thais are FAR from stupid. When given the chance to express an idea, albeit one that is prompted and suggested whithin a rigid frame, and away from other Thais, they are able to do so. They are simply not used to doing so. Thais will often admit that.

In answer to G. Orwell. Yes! I do think that that enforced taboos hinder the thought process. You only have to look at how political correctness stifles free thought in the west. We are unable to say what we think in case we upset someone, regardless of weather our view is true or not.

The first paragraph above invalidates the premise of the OP ..... the second invalidates that of the OP and this poster ....

free thought in the west isn't stifled ... think whatever you want! Just spare the rest of us your bigoted/biased inanities tyvm

[Thaipwriter]

would the OP like to inform us if he has regular interaction with responsible, educated Thai nationals or just "playmates" that can only babble "up 2 you"?

[jamman]

While I was typing my post Jamman wrote a long diatribe and ruined his somewhat "intellegent" image. Shame. Happens to people when they drink. I''m drunk now, too.

As a drunk to a drunk, things you are talking about are thought very deeply by Thais and what they tell you in your face is just a glimpse of all the thoughts they have accumulated in their brains.

Take this jealosy trip, for example. Sometimes it works, but clearly not in your case. Don't freak about it. She would have done anyways, she was just not too subtle about this. Let it go. Take a notice for the future.

>>>>>>>>>

Bottom line - you CAN find Thais smarter and more free-thinking than you, but is it what you are actually looking for?

My last post may have been misleading. I didn't just write it on the spot, it is cobbled together from some emails I had been writing over the course of several weeks. The girl who got all pissy jealous was just projecting - laying her own trip on me - she had a boyfriend at the time, and hadn't yet told me about it. I'd only known her for a few days though, so that was really no biggie. After I got to know her better, and found out that she habitually lied and spent way way too much time looking at my cell phone for clues about other girls, I chose to stop seeing her. You never know someone until you get to know them, and once I got to know her, I decided that I didn't want to know her. She is an extreme example - I used the bit about her jealousy as an example to highlight a point - the point that some people (Thai, or western - it happens everywhere) tend to try to make a point, and don't really care if the facts line up for or against their point. They have a point, and will chose the facts accordingly.

I choose to disparage Thai culture because it is an easy mark. You can make the same comments about any culture - it is just that some aspects of Thai culture are so exagerated, it is easy to make the point using examples of that culture. In what other culture on planet earth is Face so overblown in importance in adults?

If I can't disparage Thai culture, then I can't disparage my own. If I can disparage my own, I can disparage Thai culture. Show me wrong when I'm wrong though - hope to hear it. Mostly I'm trying to find the weak points in human nature. Some of the weak points are stronger in some cultures, so to speak.

And JDinasia, I'm sorry, but I really don't want to reply to your insults. I don't see that they have much to do with me, and they are ugly.

Edited April 17, 2006 by jamman

[Plus]

And so they are. (I mean cultures' strong points, not Jdinasia's percieved insults - adding this after jamman editing of his own post)

People I know didn't choose Thailand becayse it's the most free thinking country on Earth.

Free thinking, and also money, are the things you should bring with you and share, not demand.

Edited April 17, 2006 by Plus

[jamman]

that westerners do not lie.

Just where are you from? I just thought when they lie, they are better at it than thais.

There are some people who value honesty, and do their best not to lie. Once, just before moving out from living in a Buddhist monastery, I took a vow to not lie for one year. As I was in my early twenties, just out from the teen years where lying to your parents seems inevitable, it was a difficult habit to train in. That vow led to a biter sweet moment for me. It came about when talking to my Dad on the phone. I lied to him about something. I forget what now. But because of my vow, I had to phone him back and tell him that I had just lied to him, and tell him the painful truth!

Yes, not all westerners do their best to yoke themselves to honesty, but it is a value that is recognized, at least. Many of us really do try to tell the truth. My father so habitually told the truth that he was rather gullible - he just didn't expect others to be different than him. He was very strict about honesty, and his value system is one that simplifies life a great deal. The friends I had in the west for the most part all also expected truth. To lie is really a big deal to a lot of people - a really big deal.

Yes, I lie sometimes. Mostly not though. I very rarely lie.

[Thaipwriter]

Show me wrong when I'm wrong though - hope to hear it.

lets start with this:

George Orwell thinks that Thais are boring

I dont ever recall George Orwell ACTUALLY stating that he thought Thai's were boring.

You are suggesting to us that he did though!

Creative thought and the reluctance to communicate those thoughts to others through fear of embarrassing others are not the same. Thefore creative thought is always possible.

I work in a factory environment with a bunch of Thai folks that produce a quality product using ancient machinery that should be in a museum someplace.

Every day i find superb examples of creative thought from everyday Thai people who have managed to find viable engineering solutions to problems that I, as a westerner have failed to foresee. Most of our factory staff left school at 13 years old.

[mark45y]

I don’t think the real post is about Orwell or taboos. I think it is about misunderstanding Thai culture. I think it is about thinking Thai’s are Western. I think it is about thinking the values and morals and ethics of Thailand do not meet the expectations of the OP. I think it is about thinking Thai women are the same as Western women.

You gotta pick your role kid. It may be that the race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that’s the way to bet. I feel a little like Damon Runyan.

You have to be on top or bottom. If you want to be on the bottom you might as well go back to Farang land. Thailand is a culture that expects the male to be in control.

But you have to act like you are in control even if your basic upbringing has left you unprepared to do this.

You know what a Thai guy would have done presented with your problem? Blown her off and went to see the mia noi.

America has large mineral resources, large supplies of food and technological resources. Americans take advantage of these things. Thailand has the largest supply of beautiful women per square foot than any other nation in the world. To get along in Thailand you must take advantage of that.

Don’t expect truth, justice or the Western way. Here it is power, deviousness and the Thai way. Adjust. It’s not too hard. Your strength is being tested.

If your reaction to she is never going to see you again is OK, no problem, you are fine. Walk out. She will be back in a few days.

Learning to speak the language is a lot more than just learning how to pronounce words. You are not in Farang land. What you learned in Farang land does not qualify you to understand what is going on here. Words are cheap actions are precious. Be like a Thai. That is the answer to your quest.

You present Thai women with an incongruity that they don’t deal well with. Mr. Nice guy works in Farang land maybe. Mr. Nice guy gets no kudos in Thailand. Keep the property in your name. Keep the money in your bank account and operate from a position of strength.

In depth communication between the sexes has not arrived in Thailand yet. It will probably get here in a hundred years or so.

A Thai guy jumps around throws a couple of punches verbally or physically depending on the level of hi so and goes out and has a drink with the boys or his brother or the mia noi. Mr Thai doesn’t get real up set about it. Neither does the woman. She may slash her wrists but usually it is not deep enough to create any real harm. This is a puppet show of emotion. Not to say it is shallow but it is a show.

Get with the program. Lighten up while you still can.

[jamman]

would the OP like to inform us if he has regular interaction with responsible, educated Thai nationals or just "playmates" that can only babble "up 2 you"?

I'm no longer in Thailand. My girlfriends drove me nuts, so I left. I lived there for 2 years and dated mostly college educated women in their early twenties, on up to about age 30. Mostly from professional families, but not all. I got to know intimately over a dozen women, and decided that the chances of me finding someone compatible were too slim, and it was time to leave.

[jamman]

Show me wrong when I'm wrong though - hope to hear it.

lets start with this:

George Orwell thinks that Thais are boring

I dont ever recall George Orwell ACTUALLY stating that he thought Thai's were boring.

You are suggesting to us that he did though!

Creative thought and the reluctance to communicate those thoughts to others through fear of embarrassing others are not the same. Thefore creative thought is always possible.

I work in a factory environment with a bunch of Thai folks that produce a quality product using ancient machinery that should be in a museum someplace.

Every day i find superb examples of creative thought from everyday Thai people who have managed to find viable engineering solutions to problems that I, as a westerner have failed to foresee. Most of our factory staff left school at 13 years old.

Yes, it goes without saying that George Orwell never said anything about Thai's being boring. I was being provocative to highlight my own personal conclusion. I thought that was obvious.

Glad to hear that you have seen lots of examples of creative thought. I don't suggest that creative thought can't happen in Thailand. But I disagree that reluctance to communicate creative thoughts will not have an effect on thinking creatively. I think it is often our desire to communicate that leads us to think creatively.