Thailand's Education Minister Chaturon looks abroad for guidance

[kirk0233]

There are several problems to contend with when faced with the task of improvement in Thai education. The current goal for eduaction of an improvement in student test scores is so broad it is meaningless and requires a rethinking of what should be taught and how. Thai education wishes to be on par with the west, but should Thai education procedures be copied from the west? To copy the west would require the Thai education system to change Thai culture through the development of critical thinking skills that throw Thai culture on its head. How is it possible to change Thai education in a vacuum? How can a student question assumptions in science and not be allowed to question something in Thai politics or Buddhism or other area of Thai society that would label the questioner a deviant? How can critical thinking skills be selectively developed? If the leaders of Thailand want the educational status of the west, Thai cultural restrictions on what one can think and express would have to be relaxed in all facets of society. I am not sure this is what the leadership wants and any educational program that is western in orientation will naturally fail as a consequence.

[kirk0233]

What a load of rubbish!!

The government should stop insisting that foreign teachers possess worthless degrees.

I was in the work permit office once when I see on the desk a piece of paper from Nevada university whereby they had qualiied in art!!! Please tell me, who is better qualified to teach real English out of this person or an English (person) who has been speaking the lingo for 55 years but does not have a useless degree, You decide!!

I choose the person with a degree

[rct99q]

What a load of rubbish!!

The government should stop insisting that foreign teachers possess worthless degrees.

I was in the work permit office once when I see on the desk a piece of paper from Nevada university whereby they had qualiied in art!!! Please tell me, who is better qualified to teach real English out of this person or an English (person) who has been speaking the lingo for 55 years but does not have a useless degree, You decide!!

I will take the person with a degree, thank you.It is not about the "degree" itself but the structured practice that goes along with it. During ones post secondary education you develop structure, learning techniques, are subjected to various forms of assessments that are critical in teaching and disciplne.

So it is not that the other person is "educated" that qualifies them as a better teacher. It is the structure they have been exposed to that makes them better qualified. I have no doubt you could hold conversations with students and provide them with some skills they could eventually use. Teaching is about providing the foundation of life skills that requires both the introduction of knowledge but also how to correctly evaluate that knowledge.

So, no, the Government does not want to stop insisting foreign teachers have worthless degrees. There is no such thing. They should however start to insist that the degrees are in Education perhaps not in Art (as a major).

[WitawatWatawit]

You are missing something here, many Thais are moe educated than ppl in the west !

Strewth! You've just proved your own point.

[tominbkk]

"Chaturon said he had learnt English as a student in Thailand for 16 years but had never had any real English conversation during that period."

Should get out more

I privately tutored many Middle and High School kids when I first arrived in Thailand. Most often I was the first person they ever had a 'real' conversation with in English. Nowadays most school provide some foreigners in the school for conversation classes. Back then not so much.

[Just1Voice]

You are missing something here, many Thais are moe educated than ppl in the west !

And just what "Planet Thailand" are you living on?

Here's a little story for you about the wonderful Thai education system.

Daughter and her husband of Thai family across the street both have Master's Degrees in English from one of the so-called "Top Three" universities in Thailand, but found it difficult to engage in even the most basic conversation with me. Both were working as English teachers, but decided to go to the U.S. and teach there, where they could rake in the "big bucks".

They go to the U.S., the Washington DC area, and the first 7 school districts they applied to flatly denied them, telling them their degrees weren't worth the paper they were written on. The eighth agreed to hire them as part time substitute teachers, providing they could pass a 12th grade English Comprehension test. Both of them scored less than 50%. He got a job at a Pep Boy's auto parts store, she got a job in a public library, till they could save enough to come home.

When they finally did, the girl told my wife that the only good thing from their experience was that working in the library gave her a chance to read, which she loves to do, and after reading dozens of books on Thailand, she came to realize that the history of Thailand taught in schools here is at least 80% myth and lies.

Both of them returned to universities and obtained degrees in Internet Technology, and are now working in that field. When I asked why they didn't go back to teaching English, the husband quietly, and with much humility and embarrassment, told me: "No, We realize now that we are not qualified."

[Thai at Heart]

You are missing something here, many Thais are moe educated than ppl in the west !

I've seen quite a few very skilled in the oldest profession. I agree, Thais do have some world class talent in that particular industry.

[SNGLIFE]

Ha!

Meanwhile what they are actually DOING is selecting the best English language students in each school and sending them to take the tests which rank the school (!!!). At least that is what is going on in the NE.

It happened with my daughter.

After letting the Thai system have there way with her for the past 4 years, I am taking her out and homeschooling her again. When I put her in, she tested 2 grades above her peers. Earlier this year, she tested 2 grades behind her peers. Now, she's back to level with her international peers, which is of course FAR above her local peers.

Good luck to those who depend on this FAIL education system. At least those kids will know how to sweep floors, sing songs, and cheat...but not much else.

[Thai at Heart]

What a load of rubbish!!

The government should stop insisting that foreign teachers possess worthless degrees.

I was in the work permit office once when I see on the desk a piece of paper from Nevada university whereby they had qualiied in art!!! Please tell me, who is better qualified to teach real English out of this person or an English (person) who has been speaking the lingo for 55 years but does not have a useless degree, You decide!!

I will take the person with a degree, thank you.It is not about the "degree" itself but the structured practice that goes along with it. During ones post secondary education you develop structure, learning techniques, are subjected to various forms of assessments that are critical in teaching and disciplne.

So it is not that the other person is "educated" that qualifies them as a better teacher. It is the structure they have been exposed to that makes them better qualified. I have no doubt you could hold conversations with students and provide them with some skills they could eventually use. Teaching is about providing the foundation of life skills that requires both the introduction of knowledge but also how to correctly evaluate that knowledge.

So, no, the Government does not want to stop insisting foreign teachers have worthless degrees. There is no such thing. They should however start to insist that the degrees are in Education perhaps not in Art (as a major).

I would allow anyone who could prove they had studied a language to a decent level. You might not have a degree but if you have studied and completed high school French or German, that process would make it infinitely easier to explain and teach English as a foreign language.

[pilm]

Ha!

Meanwhile what they are actually DOING is selecting the best English language students in each school and sending them to take the tests which rank the school (!!!). At least that is what is going on in the NE.

It happened with my daughter.

After letting the Thai system have there way with her for the past 4 years, I am taking her out and homeschooling her again. When I put her in, she tested 2 grades above her peers. Earlier this year, she tested 2 grades behind her peers. Now, she's back to level with her international peers, which is of course FAR above her local peers.

Good luck to those who depend on this FAIL education system. At least those kids will know how to sweep floors, sing songs, and cheat...but not much else.

I have a young daughter here. How do you do the testing of her and get the level of her international peers?

[Muhendis]

"Chaturon said he had learnt English as a student in Thailand for 16 years but had never had any real English conversation during that period."

Should get out more

I privately tutored many Middle and High School kids when I first arrived in Thailand. Most often I was the first person they ever had a 'real' conversation with in English. Nowadays most school provide some foreigners in the school for conversation classes. Back then not so much.

I did something similar in Ankara quite a few years ago. It was fun for all and quite entertaining which is the way school should be. Sadly I don't think we have anything like that out here in the "sticks" (Buriram).

Teaching children is as much about entertaining as it is about imparting relevant information. Degree or no degree if you can't entertain then the little darlings will quickly fall asleep/start playing on their ipads.

[aguy30]

You are missing something here, many Thais are moe educated than ppl in the west !

That is obvious if it in comparison to you. The rest of the Gump family must be so proud.

Edited September 9, 2013 by aguy30

[NongKhaiKid]

Sounds interesting. I hope there are improvements. I'd also like to see more outdoor activities, music, dance, arts & crafts - all things which are considered silly by those designing educational curriculum - yet those are the sorts of things which contribute to a well-rounded, healthy people, who can make wise decisions and perhaps better able to think innovatively. In other words; the type of people Thailand currently lacks.

I'm sure that in 2 years facts and figures will be produced to prove there's been an improvement, it wouldn't be Thailand otherwise, but in reality will such improvements actually exist ?

I'm afraid this country is in for a big reality check when the AEC starts and they realise how their " graduates " etc can't compete.

[Thai at Heart]

The Thai education system is completely broken and wholly corrupt.

And no one cares.

Really. Whilst there are considerable issues, your view is somewhat extreme. My children's schools here are better than the very expensive British school they attended in the UAE. They certainly compare favourably with many UK equivalents that I know. Not perfect - but not completely crap either.

Please remind me never to send my kids to school in the uae. Is like claiming Thailand is richer than Laos so that represents progress. I have heard plenty of horror stories about private high level schools here.

The system is broken.

[Suffinator]

He needs sacking and no doubt he'll be soon out the door for not once did he mention that Thailand was about to become the Hub of Education... looks like they are slipping a bit.

[Suffinator]

Another suggestion... cut down or better yet eradicate scamming foreign teachers:

Foreign Teacher Scam in Thailand

[hellodolly]

I can see a load of overseas fact-finding missions taking place.

As long as they don't interfere with shopping and ill delivered poorly thought out speeches.

[mrtoad]

When I read that he was looking abroad for guidance, I assumed that means he'll be SKYPEing the DL in Dubai

[hellodolly]

As long as there are 50+ kids in a non aircon room and rote learning is the norm, nothing good will happen.

Rote learning when it comes to learning ones tables is not wrong, as a poster in their 70s all of my fellow school friends knew all of the tables every which way but since the rote system was thrown out I frequently see university students in England who cannot work out how much fare for 3 people @ 70 pence each and they are not alone.

Not all of the so called NEW systems are better than the old ways and a lot of the older people could leave the modern taught children for dead.

I certainly agree with that.

I was forced to learn the times tables up to 12 X12 by rote. My father had me repeating them over and over again until I could repeat them in my sleep. I believe I was about 10 not sure. It has served me very well ever since.

About 40 years ago my wife went to work for a McDonald's in Vancouver Canada. half the kids could not make change for a $2.75 purchase out of a $5 bill.

she tried to show them to start with $2.75 add a quarter for $3 then another $1 for $4 and then aniother $1 for $5. A complete waste of time. They had new math.

Bottom line rote does have some uses provided you really learn it. Not like when I took a few collage colasses. The kids would study and cram for a test they would pass it and the next day not know a thing.

[bigbamboo]

What a load of rubbish!!

The government should stop insisting that foreign teachers possess worthless degrees.

I was in the work permit office once when I see on the desk a piece of paper from Nevada university whereby they had qualiied in art!!! Please tell me, who is better qualified to teach real English out of this person or an English (person) who has been speaking the lingo for 55 years but does not have a useless degree, You decide!!

I will take the person with a degree, thank you.It is not about the "degree" itself but the structured practice that goes along with it. During ones post secondary education you develop structure, learning techniques, are subjected to various forms of assessments that are critical in teaching and disciplne.

So it is not that the other person is "educated" that qualifies them as a better teacher. It is the structure they have been exposed to that makes them better qualified. I have no doubt you could hold conversations with students and provide them with some skills they could eventually use. Teaching is about providing the foundation of life skills that requires both the introduction of knowledge but also how to correctly evaluate that knowledge.

So, no, the Government does not want to stop insisting foreign teachers have worthless degrees. There is no such thing. They should however start to insist that the degrees are in Education perhaps not in Art (as a major).

I would allow anyone who could prove they had studied a language to a decent level. You might not have a degree but if you have studied and completed high school French or German, that process would make it infinitely easier to explain and teach English as a foreign language.

The comment comes closest to hitting the mark.

Employers more often than not look for someone who has proved they have the acumen and the application to study for a degree regardless of the subject matter. Mine was in anthropology and by a tortuous route which included working in business training I eventually wound up in forex!

Of course a relevant degree is always an advantage but not essential. What is essential in teaching is the ability to structure lessons, know your subject (some Thais kids are surprising hot when it comes to grammar!) and most importantly be able to communicate. There are plenty of people who can 'speak the lingo' who after half a century still cannot do that effectively.

[northernjohn]

There are several problems to contend with when faced with the task of improvement in Thai education. The current goal for eduaction of an improvement in student test scores is so broad it is meaningless and requires a rethinking of what should be taught and how. Thai education wishes to be on par with the west, but should Thai education procedures be copied from the west? To copy the west would require the Thai education system to change Thai culture through the development of critical thinking skills that throw Thai culture on its head. How is it possible to change Thai education in a vacuum? How can a student question assumptions in science and not be allowed to question something in Thai politics or Buddhism or other area of Thai society that would label the questioner a deviant? How can critical thinking skills be selectively developed? If the leaders of Thailand want the educational status of the west, Thai cultural restrictions on what one can think and express would have to be relaxed in all facets of society. I am not sure this is what the leadership wants and any educational program that is western in orientation will naturally fail as a consequence.

Sadly I have to agree with you.

I love Thai culture but some place along the line it went from respect to blind obedience with no questions asked. Respect would be to question when you see some thing in a different light to bring it up. You would not have to try to enforce your idea but feel free to ask it. If a teacher respects you he will listen and try to point out the reasoning behind what he has said and the flaws in your line of reasoning. Thereby both learning to share and respect each others ideas and at the same time use logic.

As I see it this will take 20 years before schools turn out people who can reason things out. First the teachers must learn there subject themselves not just memorize it and be able to discuss it with their students. Secondly the parents must learn to respect their children's ability to think to reason to use Logic. As I write this I realize this will be in most cases a three generation thing some maybe two. But it must be started.

The future of the country is in the hands of the children. I might not give very often to a beggar on the street but I have made sure my wife's daughter and sun got as good an education as they could under the present system. One is a Nurses Aide and the boy is an electronic engineer. Now we are working on the Grand kids. Thailand's very future is in the hands of it's children.

Not all that sure about some of the education systems in the western Countries. I know even in the United States they can not agree on what is the best system it can vary from State to State. Even within the same state different districts will use different systems.

[northernjohn]

What a load of rubbish!!

The government should stop insisting that foreign teachers possess worthless degrees.

I was in the work permit office once when I see on the desk a piece of paper from Nevada university whereby they had qualiied in art!!! Please tell me, who is better qualified to teach real English out of this person or an English (person) who has been speaking the lingo for 55 years but does not have a useless degree, You decide!!

I will take the person with a degree, thank you.It is not about the "degree" itself but the structured practice that goes along with it. During ones post secondary education you develop structure, learning techniques, are subjected to various forms of assessments that are critical in teaching and disciplne.

So it is not that the other person is "educated" that qualifies them as a better teacher. It is the structure they have been exposed to that makes them better qualified. I have no doubt you could hold conversations with students and provide them with some skills they could eventually use. Teaching is about providing the foundation of life skills that requires both the introduction of knowledge but also how to correctly evaluate that knowledge.

So, no, the Government does not want to stop insisting foreign teachers have worthless degrees. There is no such thing. They should however start to insist that the degrees are in Education perhaps not in Art (as a major).

What you say is true but if you do not have the ability to impart the knowledge in such a way that is understandable to the pupil it is useless. Also you must be able to present it in a way that will keep the pupils attention. I have a friend who has A degree in English. She spends a lot of her time preparing lessons that will interest the students and keep there attention on the subject.

Some people this comes natural to others after 4 or 5 years of college in education will know every thing and yet lack the ability to impart the knowledge to the students. Also if they are students in a public school there is a very good chance many of them will tune you out because you can not make it interesting. With today's system the kid's know you will pass them and it wont make a difference. So once again I say it is more imperative to be able to impart your information and keep them interested than to just stand there and lecture.

[johnnie20110]

Educational reform under his supervision would start making real moves next month and results, he said, should be visible within two years

At the current rate of turnover for Education Ministers in Yingluck's Cabinet, it will Thailand's Tenth Education Minister, in four years, who will be looking at the results.

No doubt he, like his nine predecessors, will be making similar glorious plans for education.

[JepSoDii]

What's that smell? <sniff! sniff!> Smells like lip service to me!

On the other hand, one can always hope . . . he's saying the right things at least.

[dao16]

Well, this guy is just the top guy on a chain that is corrupt through and through. The thing about it (and probably most institutions in Thailand) is that the corruption is so thoroughly entrenched that people don't even see anything wrong with it. Of course boss skims off the top....he is in that position. And of course his boss skims off of the mid managers....it is his position, all the way up. There is enough money around, but it all gets skimmed with a smile by all. The main aspiration in education here seems to be to operate another business on the side or to one day be the one who skims more and the system will live on, in your favor this time.

Have seen it first hand.

[NeverSure]

What a load of rubbish!!

The government should stop insisting that foreign teachers possess worthless degrees.

I was in the work permit office once when I see on the desk a piece of paper from Nevada university whereby they had qualiied in art!!! Please tell me, who is better qualified to teach real English out of this person or an English (person) who has been speaking the lingo for 55 years but does not have a useless degree, You decide!!

I will take the person with a degree, thank you.It is not about the "degree" itself but the structured practice that goes along with it. During ones post secondary education you develop structure, learning techniques, are subjected to various forms of assessments that are critical in teaching and disciplne.

So it is not that the other person is "educated" that qualifies them as a better teacher. It is the structure they have been exposed to that makes them better qualified. I have no doubt you could hold conversations with students and provide them with some skills they could eventually use. Teaching is about providing the foundation of life skills that requires both the introduction of knowledge but also how to correctly evaluate that knowledge.

So, no, the Government does not want to stop insisting foreign teachers have worthless degrees. There is no such thing. They should however start to insist that the degrees are in Education perhaps not in Art (as a major).

Perhaps you haven't spent any time in rural Isaan. They don't have NES teachers and many schools have never had one. How much better to have a NES farang who speaks English well and has something like a TEFL in the classroom, than to have English taught by a Thai who can't speak it at all, much less properly.

As in the OP, kids can spend years studying English in a Thai school and never learn to speak it because the teacher can't speak it!!!! Even at the Uni level, many English teachers are Thai who can't really speak it and if they can, they butcher it.

Yet there are all of these retired farangs with nothing to do who could teach only conversational English and the kids would learn to speak English.

I was visiting a Thai teacher friend in S. Isaan in April and was invited to visit the school. The head of the school met me and asked me to see if I could teach these very rural children to speak some English. They had already been taught a lot of grammar by a Thai teacher who couldn't carry a conversation. So I agreed, had a lot of fun, and yes, I managed to teach the kids quite a few phrases that they understood. They knew the written words I wrote on the chalkboard, but they had never spoken them. Give me a year with those kids and they would be able to talk to me in English. As it is, they are doomed to learning vocabulary and grammar by rote without knowing how to say the words.

TEFL. Teach them to have a conversation. Far better than what they will never have.

[ccarbaugh]

Yes, I am a retired teacher from
San Francisco. I moved to Thailand

5 years ago and have been willing to

teach and/or tutor for free. Occasionally,

a Thai will ask me to help them score

higher on a test they will have tomorrow.

But, as far as learning/practicing English

so as to actually learn it- "NO THANK YOU!"

Edited September 9, 2013 by ccarbaugh

[dao16]

The TOEFL and some other tests are actually pretty good evaluations of a person's ability in English. However, you don't score well by gearing your learning to them. You score well on them by learning and practicing fundamentals in a logical, consistent way. Once you have a decent level, it is definitely possible to "teach to the test." Before that, though, it is fundamentals that are important. And, that is exactly what is missing in Thai schools (especially the "logically and consistently" part).

I can't teach a kid how to skim a text or figure out an inference question if he or she doesn't have an intermediate level of English. The speaking section of the TOEFL? Forget about it.

[Bagwan]

You are missing something here, many Thais are moe educated than ppl in the west !

I can well believe that there are many Thais better educated than you. Ignoring your obvious grammatical mistakes, just how many people who live 'in the West' are we talking about? How about some facts and figures to bear out your assertion? In my travels throughout the Europe, the US, Australia and South Africa i have never come across a shop assistant who needed a calculator to tot up a bill.

[Lucie]

What a load of rubbish!!

The government should stop insisting that foreign teachers possess worthless degrees.

I was in the work permit office once when I see on the desk a piece of paper from Nevada university whereby they had qualiied in art!!! Please tell me, who is better qualified to teach real English out of this person or an English (person) who has been speaking the lingo for 55 years but does not have a useless degree, You decide!!

I will take the person with a degree, thank you.It is not about the "degree" itself but the structured practice that goes along with it. During ones post secondary education you develop structure, learning techniques, are subjected to various forms of assessments that are critical in teaching and disciplne.

So it is not that the other person is "educated" that qualifies them as a better teacher. It is the structure they have been exposed to that makes them better qualified. I have no doubt you could hold conversations with students and provide them with some skills they could eventually use. Teaching is about providing the foundation of life skills that requires both the introduction of knowledge but also how to correctly evaluate that knowledge.

So, no, the Government does not want to stop insisting foreign teachers have worthless degrees. There is no such thing. They should however start to insist that the degrees are in Education perhaps not in Art (as a major).

What you say is true but if you do not have the ability to impart the knowledge in such a way that is understandable to the pupil it is useless. Also you must be able to present it in a way that will keep the pupils attention. I have a friend who has A degree in English. She spends a lot of her time preparing lessons that will interest the students and keep there attention on the subject.

Some people this comes natural to others after 4 or 5 years of college in education will know every thing and yet lack the ability to impart the knowledge to the students. Also if they are students in a public school there is a very good chance many of them will tune you out because you can not make it interesting. With today's system the kid's know you will pass them and it wont make a difference. So once again I say it is more imperative to be able to impart your information and keep them interested than to just stand there and lecture.

I agree that a degree, in anything, can be useful in preparing someone with the organisational skills, literacy, etc necessary for teaching English. I also think, however, that it is not always necessary, and it is a shame to just disregard anyone without a degree.

I don't have a degree, but this wasn't a problem when I first started working for my school 10 years ago. Now, with 10 years of experience (and I've used those years to better my skills, too) I have been told by the local labour office that I can't get my work permit renewed. But a new graduate of engineering, or art, or any other subject unrelated to teaching or English, CAN get the permit.

I'm sure that a degree in teaching would do wonders to improve my abilities as a teacher, but I'm just as sure that a degree in anything else WOULDN'T make me a better teacher. So who would you hire - the engineering graduate, or me?