Speaking Thai in Thailand is Useless

[Gone]

When I first moved here 13 years ago and was at that time doing the Playing around game I would be with a girl and if we needed directions or some local knowledge I would tell her to as a Thai as I could not speak any Thai. Normally they were hesitant and/or shy to ask but now I understand why.

I eventually got married and even with my wife it was the same thing, she would never ask anyone anything. Most of us know that back home if you need directions or some local knowledge you just as a localnot here.

I decided that the only way I would be able to survive in this country was to learn Thai.

To make a long story short I have done ok and speak pretty good Thai including tones etc. phood chart.

It hasnt really helped at all as when I am in a restaurant or venue and order in what I think is perfect Thai, they just look at me with the look of a Phnom Phenn Motorcycle Taxi driver, then look at the Thai I am with for confirmation. She/he says exactly the same thing as I just said then everything is ok.

I also now know why Thais are reluctant to ask for directions as well because even if you ask someone who should know, you get some very strange answers that lead you strait to NOT where you wanted to go. Motorcycle taxi drivers are best at helping if needed.

Today I called the Pattaya Court to ask about the new tourist courts location, operating hours etc. and before being hung up on rudely I could here the guy telling his colleagues farang phood Thai before he just hung up.

Even in my condo I will be asking something at the front desk and they just look at me until a Thai walks up, asks me what I want and then repeats the same thing I just said in perfect Thai to the receptionist and gives me the answer back in English even though I understood the answer.

I have come to the conclusion that speaking Thai in Thailand is pretty much useless and I dont know why I bother. Also I now realize why over the past 13 years every Thai I have asked is reluctant to ask another Thai for anything.

Rant over !!!!

Edited September 18, 2013 by Gone

[Curt1591]

" ... in what I think is perfect Thai ... "

Possibly, Thais think differently.

Thais are extremely fixed on inflection. I once ordered a "Mocha Moolatte" at my local DQ. After about a half dozen attempts at it, a Thai explained that I wanted a Mo-KAAAA Moolatte. That's when they figured it out.

[EvilDrSomkid]

Although I recognize OP's problem, I have not had it to such a bad degree. Speaking Thai is NOT useless. How else would I communicate with the neighbours, in-laws, taxi drivers, cops, restaurant staff, our staff, coffee shop staff, etc?

For the record, my wife does ask for directions if we cannot find something. Works quite alright. My thai reasonble, but not perfect. Sometimes I pronounce words wrong. If my wife is there, she corrects me and then they get it.

Don't forget that many Thai have severe cases of cognitive dissonance. More Thai know that there are many westerners who can speak Thai.

The look of relief and surprise on 7-11 staff faces is funny every time.

[kblaze]

following what Curt said above, it really comes down to saying it like a Thai. For example you might order a sprite in Thai, and say everything fine, but then when you say "Sprite", rather than "Sa-prite", they get confused. I've found i'm best understood when I adopt the Thai accent for things, no matter how humiliating it is lol...

[GirlDrinkDrunk]

i suspect you dont "pood chart".

i also find speaking thai incredibly useful for shooting the shit with the locals on my doorstep and getting what i want.

if someone doesn't get it i say it again or circumlocute until i am understood. usually only has to happen once.

personally i believe my thai is <deleted>, and because of that when i am not understood by a native speaker i look back to myself for fault, not the person who speaks the language fluently.

[Phronesis]

When I first moved to live permanently in Phuket 4 years ago I used to always take my then girlfriend with me to do business errands. I quickly realised that if you have a Thai girl there with you on the errand it will usually take LONGER to complete. I now ALWAYS go alone, and using my conversation Thai find that it is much easier and quicker to get things done.

[jmccarty]

Same same but different all over the world!

Singapore, you can be standing right next to a building you are looking for and ask where it is, most Singaporeans will say, don't know. If a Singaporean asks, sometimes they get the same answer, but if they do know, they will say "Here lah!"

[Gone]

i suspect you dont "pood chart".

i also find speaking thai incredibly useful for shooting the shit with the locals on my doorstep and getting what i want.

if someone doesn't get it i say it again or circumlocute until i am understood. usually only has to happen once.

personally i believe my thai is <deleted>, and because of that when i am not understood by a native speaker i look back to myself for fault, not the person who speaks the language fluently.

And your suspicion that what I say I do not say very clearly comes from? Actually over the years What I have learned is perfect in every way; Tones, long, short, open ends closed ends etc.

I think you are missing the point but of course I can see why. BTW, your English typing could do with some work.

One point I was trying to make was that Thais are not so good with directions as a fact. I figure maybe 15% out of all the directions I (or my counterpart) has ever got was correct. Normally if you follow their directions they are wrong and you end up asking several more folks before you get where you are going. The reason is because Thais are helpful people and would sooner tell something they don't know well then to not try and help at all, hence Motorbike taxis being the best for directions.

As one person said when you do speak Thai some Thais are just amazed and to be honest they can't believe that you can speak Thai so they are not sure if you said what they thought you said, hence why they ask your Thai counterpart.

I am NOT bashing Thais at all as there is a reason I have ben here for 13 years. I am just making a point how after spending so much time learning the language that many times it is hardly worth it if you are with another Thai.

It is a fact that most of us who learn Thai learn the "queens" Thai and that is to proper for common Thais as is learning the Queen's" English let's say in England. The common folk just don't talk that way in the real world. You are better off learning the "slang" Thai (without swear-words)lol. This is the reason that when I speak I might not be understood as well due to speaking "TOO" proper. A hard habit to drop.

[krisb]

Do you use the Thai accent?

[Gone]

I didn't know Thais had an accent.I speak according to the consonants and vowels (long, short) using tones; mids,highs,lows,falling,rising,open endings, closed endings,risings etc.

You mean we should speak with the nasal Asian sounds as well? 555555555

[Lakegeneve]

i suspect you dont "pood chart".

i also find speaking thai incredibly useful for shooting the shit with the locals on my doorstep and getting what i want.

if someone doesn't get it i say it again or circumlocute until i am understood. usually only has to happen once.

personally i believe my thai is <deleted>, and because of that when i am not understood by a native speaker i look back to myself for fault, not the person who speaks the language fluently.

And your suspicion that what I say I do not say very clearly comes from? Actually over the years What I have learned is perfect in every way; Tones, long, short, open ends closed ends etc.

I think you are missing the point but of course I can see why. BTW, your English typing could do with some work.

One point I was trying to make was that Thais are not so good with directions as a fact. I figure maybe 15% out of all the directions I (or my counterpart) has ever got was correct. Normally if you follow their directions they are wrong and you end up asking several more folks before you get where you are going. The reason is because Thais are helpful people and would sooner tell something they don't know well then to not try and help at all, hence Motorbike taxis being the best for directions.

As one person said when you do speak Thai some Thais are just amazed and to be honest they can't believe that you can speak Thai so they are not sure if you said what they thought you said, hence why they ask your Thai counterpart.

I am NOT bashing Thais at all as there is a reason I have ben here for 13 years. I am just making a point how after spending so much time learning the language that many times it is hardly worth it if you are with another Thai.

It is a fact that most of us who learn Thai learn the "queens" Thai and that is to proper for common Thais as is learning the Queen's" English let's say in England. The common folk just don't talk that way in the real world. You are better off learning the "slang" Thai (without swear-words)lol. This is the reason that when I speak I might not be understood as well due to speaking "TOO" proper. A hard habit to drop.

The directions issue is applicable in most of SE Asia for locals as well as foreigners. It is not uncommon that Thais ask another Thai for directions to somewhere and then are confused by the answer. In terms on a foreigner asking the propensity for confusion is greater. You have obviously lived here long enough to know that you need to ask many queries in different ways to gain the info you require and that face saving in NEVER saying 'no I don't know' is a huge factor which works both against clarify of info for both the questioner and the responder.

Time and spatial relationships are vastly different from where most of us come from. And I won't even mention showing a thai a map in their language....Even with limited language skills often the key is having an insight into a languages cultural perspective and how people see the world around them.

Saving face is common all through Asia, probably worse in Indo where no one will ever say no, Central Asia and parts of Africa. So many times you just want to say, 'get over it, it is okay to say that you don't know and it is okay to not know' but that is the culture in many places. Even back in 'the west' some ways. I have asked someone from Brooklyn directions to a place in Queens and rather than say they had never been there & didn't know they gave me a mish mash of incorrect info. (Okay, one example doesn't make a generalisation but the fact remains it happens back home as well).

I can't agree at all with the proposition that after 13 years one has wasted time learning a language in the place that one lives. I would strongly advice that no one learn slang in any language over proper or formal skills. With respect, that really is not good advice. Knowing slang is important in the medium to long term to gain extra insights in language but one needs a formal foundation first.

Think of how the new guy in Thailand who has learnt some 'bargirl' slang is viewed by Thais when he then uses it in a public place or with another Thai outside the bar context. (And you haven't really learnt the "queens" thai until you have learnt Royal Thai which is on a whole different level!) Reflect about your own country, who will people understand more in general, someone who speaks with some "proper" structure & form or someone who speaks rude slang? Also, who will people actually try to listen to more if they don't fully understand the person immediately?

One last thing, I have a number of western & asian friends who speak, read and write fluent thai. Some have lived here for over 20 years and work at universities or companies and even do official translations into thai or vice versa. Sometimes when we are out together they will speak perfect thai but the listener doesn't understand them OFTEN due to the assumption that the speaker was going to speak in english. I have experienced the same myself many times but then my thai sucks so that is fine.

Sometimes it just doesn't matter how good your language skills are, some people will make an incorrect assumption based on you being foreign looking or are just too impatient (perhaps as with the Court person) to bother. It is no different than when I am back home and I see people who are impatient to try to listen to someone with non native or limited english skills.

[rgs2001uk]

^^^^, very good post.

The following are only my personal opinions and shouldnt be taken as fact.

Some arent happy in the company of strangers coupled with the class system in Thailand some are reluctant to approach a stranger for fear of being out of their comfort level.

Face, some think by asking for directions it makes them lose face by appearing to be ignorant.

Greng jai, some dont want to put the other person in a position where he may lose face by being unable to offer directions.

I know some older people who refer to places in Bkk by temple names, they can tell you how to get from one temple to another, but couldnt tell you what area the temple is in.

As for speaking Thai, yes I have experienced the blank face/expression, I remember going into one of these hardware stores that sell everything, the old woman looked right through me, the young girl repeated verbatim what I had asked for, so it wasnt as if my Thai was wrong.

The common folk may not talk the Thai we are taught, but they all know where and when to use it, an interaction at the local market differs from the language used at say a bank.

I wouldnt consider learning a waste of time, too be honest the only people who seem to object to me knowing Thai are service girls employed in a certain industry.

Edited September 18, 2013 by rgs2001uk

[CPT]

It most certainly is worth learning Thai but I do understand what the OP is referring to. If you don't use the correct Thai accent and aren't very careful with tones many of the people you may speak to seem completely lost (particularly the less educated in my experience). Often it seems as if Thais fail to take the context of the conversation in to account. For example, there is one clerk at my local 7/11 who doesn't understand 'hotdog', 'sangsom', and several other words until they are repeated to her by her colleagues. No matter how badly I butcher the tones and even if I use the wrong classifier, you should be able to figure out what I mean when I say "ao hotdog song un" when you are standing beside a hotdog cooker. Having said that, the type of people who work in a 7/11 anywhere in the world are not exactly society's best and brightest...

[roamer]

It most certainly is worth learning Thai but I do understand what the OP is referring to. If you don't use the correct Thai accent and aren't very careful with tones many of the people you may speak to seem completely lost (particularly the less educated in my experience). Often it seems as if Thais fail to take the context of the conversation in to account. For example, there is one clerk at my local 7/11 who doesn't understand 'hotdog', 'sangsom', and several other words until they are repeated to her by her colleagues. No matter how badly I butcher the tones and even if I use the wrong classifier, you should be able to figure out what I mean when I say "ao hotdog song un" when you are standing beside a hotdog cooker. Having said that, the type of people who work in a 7/11 anywhere in the world are not exactly society's best and brightest...

Actually I think most Thais do take the context of the sentence into account even when the tones are being butchered. I recently had the experience of standing with a colleague behind a Burmese guy in 7-11 who was murdering the language but the girl had no problems understanding him. Totally different story when my colleague stepped forward, the blank look and the need for the other girl on the till to repeat his request, which she did without looking up from her till or having to ask him to say it again, she'd seen it and heard it all before. My Thai is good, though suffers somewhat from lengthy absences from LOS, my colleagues is close to perfect and has no problem conducting lengthy business negotiations in Thai but you will always get the one with the blank look when you open your mouth.

Having said that I've forgotten how many times I've seen the look of apprehension on a shop assistants face when I've walked up to them only to break into smiles and enthusiastic help when I speak Thai.

Never ask them for directions though

[manarak]

I have to confess I too am annoyed when the serving staff turn to my GF to have repeat exactly the same.

The best proof they understand it the first time is when I go alone to a restaurant - no issues.

[rgs2001uk]

It most certainly is worth learning Thai but I do understand what the OP is referring to. If you don't use the correct Thai accent and aren't very careful with tones many of the people you may speak to seem completely lost (particularly the less educated in my experience). Often it seems as if Thais fail to take the context of the conversation in to account. For example, there is one clerk at my local 7/11 who doesn't understand 'hotdog', 'sangsom', and several other words until they are repeated to her by her colleagues. No matter how badly I butcher the tones and even if I use the wrong classifier, you should be able to figure out what I mean when I say "ao hotdog song un" when you are standing beside a hotdog cooker. Having said that, the type of people who work in a 7/11 anywhere in the world are not exactly society's best and brightest...

Thais fail to take the context of the conversation in to account

Just my personal observations gained over the years, the first thing the Thais will do is confirm the context or the subject being discussed, think of it as being like a classifier.

Eg,

Farang., Can you tell me how to get to the Nana Hotel.

Thai, no.

Farang thinks to himself, what an ignorant <deleted>.

Thai, Do you know the Nana Hotel

Answer, no.

Thai, mai pen rai kop kun krap.

Thai, Do you know the Nana Hotel,

Answer, yes.

Thai, can you please tell me how to get there,

Answer, yes, .................... laew gor tung laew.

[transam]

I agree with the OP . The only thing useful learning Thai is to hear what they are talking about regarding the farang buffalo (me).

[Suradit69]

i suspect you dont "pood chart".

i also find speaking thai incredibly useful for shooting the shit with the locals on my doorstep and getting what i want.

if someone doesn't get it i say it again or circumlocute until i am understood. usually only has to happen once.

personally i believe my thai is <deleted>, and because of that when i am not understood by a native speaker i look back to myself for fault, not the person who speaks the language fluently.

"personally i believe my thai is <deleted>, and because of that when i am not understood by a native speaker i look back to myself for fault, not the person who speaks the language fluently."

Exactly. Usually in a restaurant if I order something using Thai I'm understood, although I normally aim what I'm saying at the waiter and also my Thai friend, in case it needs to be repeated. Quite often the person in the 7-Eleven or restaurant or wherever will be determined to speak to me in English while I'm determined to speak Thai, so we share the burden of trying to understand what the other is saying. But definitely if I'm not understood, it's my fault.

And I think most of us who are native English speakers and who have travelled around a bit have heard English spoken in a variety of accents so we may be somewhat better able to cope with mangled English. An eighteen year old Thai working in a 7-Eleven whose spent his/her entire life in a village is not as likely to have any experience with Thai spoken even with regional accents let alone with a Boston or Manchester accent.

In most cases I think the attempt is appreciated and can sometimes be good for a few laughs. I remember ordering lab moo once and all was going fine until the waitress looked at me and said "sabai cee." All I could think of was sabai dee, but it seemed an odd time to be throwing that into the conversation. After a second try I looked at my friend who smirked and told her, yes, I like it "spicy, " and she departed.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Suradit69

[MacWalen]

I totally disagree. Has helped me tremendously.

Sent from my GT-I9190 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[DavidMavec]

Your point has been a frustration for me since I started learning Thai about a year ago. It is quite a strange cultural phenomenon, it is like something in their heads say "No, impossible, a farang cannot speak Thai". It feels disrespectful to me when I have been in public and I will say something in Thai to the waitress/clerk/etc. and she will repeat it back to the Thai person I am with or try to conduct the rest of the conversation with the Thai instead of me. Or when Thai people will insist on speaking English to me, even when my Thai is significantly better than their English. We are in Thailand, I do not understand why this is the case. I have lived in other countries, including developing nations, and learned the language in those places and never had to deal with this situation.

That being said, I have found this issue has significantly improved recently, maybe more than 100%; this really does not happen very much anymore. My clarity and fluency have improved quite a bit recently. This has been helped a lot by the fact that that for the past couple months I have been reading out loud to a Thai person for an hour per day. She corrects my pronunciation whenever I make a mistake with the sound of a word whether due to tone, vowel, or consonant error. My clarity, accent, and fluency have improved dramatically. The second reason is that I have moved to Bangkok from Chiang Mai, where locals seem more accustomed to farangs who can speak Thai.

This begs the question, are you REALLY sure you are speaking clearly? If you were to read out loud to a Thai person, how many words out of each sentence would they correct you? How's your fluency, do you speak at a normal pace in sentences rather than words?

Edited September 18, 2013 by DavidMavec

[kyb789]

One last thing, I have a number of western & asian friends who speak, read and write fluent thai. Some have lived here for over 20 years and work at universities or companies and even do official translations into thai or vice versa. Sometimes when we are out together they will speak perfect thai but the listener doesn't understand them OFTEN due to the assumption that the speaker was going to speak in english. I have experienced the same myself many times but then my thai sucks so that is fine.

Rather annoying. Thai's will butcher the English language when they speak, but we can pick up on 50% and understand what they are talking about. Thai's on the other hand, don't bother to listen. They would rather close their ears and look at the Thai girl next to you.

[wolf5370]

One last thing, I have a number of western & asian friends who speak, read and write fluent thai. Some have lived here for over 20 years and work at universities or companies and even do official translations into thai or vice versa. Sometimes when we are out together they will speak perfect thai but the listener doesn't understand them OFTEN due to the assumption that the speaker was going to speak in english. I have experienced the same myself many times but then my thai sucks so that is fine.

Rather annoying. Thai's will butcher the English language when they speak, but we can pick up on 50% and understand what they are talking about. Thai's on the other hand, don't bother to listen. They would rather close their ears and look at the Thai girl next to you.

No, its not the same - Thai is tonal - English is not. Also English is so different from place to place (even city to city in the same country) that we have attuned ears to decipher. Tonal language users listen for the inclinations at least as much as the words and Thai in particular is very context sensitive - if they miss a word due to poor tones, then the context can be blown too - meaning they lose the whole sentence. Trying to work it out will also make it harder to listen and take in more - a vicious circle (and they will give up quickly as we would with a very poor English speaker).

Having said that, I do find it frustrating sometimes - even single words repeated over and over and some Thais just can not get it - for example, just the other day my daughter wanted a 7-11 hotdog. So, I popped into 7-11 and asked for a hotdog - blank - repeated at least 8 times "hot dog" - now as words go it fits quite nicely into the short syllable Thai language - in Thai it is even spelled as "hot dog" - but the person serving me just could not get it - eventually one of the other servers looks over and gets it first hit - some people are just dumb I guess!

I was in an expat bar a couple of months ago and chatting with this Dutch guy (in English). When the Thai bar maids, that I knew, came over - he started chatting and joking with them. His Thai was good in that his vocab and grammar was very good - and the girls, being used to listening to out attempts at Thai for a fair while, understood mostly - but his accent was terrible. It was hard not to grimace (and his Thai was better than mine) - his voice was almost like a cockney accent, no sing-song-ness (if you know what I mean) - the tones were there (comparatively), but it was still so hard to understand him. So, to the Op, maybe it is an accent problem rather than a language per se (???)

[ccarbaugh]

I landed at Swampy, said in what I considered to be quite clear Thai: "Yak by thanon Petchburi laa Ekamai." (I want to go to Petchburi and Ekamai.) The driver looked at me and stated emphatically - :I DON'T SPEAK ENGLISH!"

[pitchag]

" ... in what I think is perfect Thai ... "

Possibly, Thais think differently.

Thais are extremely fixed on inflection. I once ordered a "Mocha Moolatte" at my local DQ. After about a half dozen attempts at it, a Thai explained that I wanted a Mo-KAAAA Moolatte. That's when they figured it out.

I find that when i can persuade my Tgf to ask directions she spends 10 minutes chatting with pointing happening in many directions when we eventually drive on I say so which way? and the usual answer is they did not Know, I just bite my lip and drive on lost

[Bpuumike]

I landed at Swampy, said in what I considered to be quite clear Thai: "Yak by thanon Petchburi laa Ekamai." (I want to go to Petchburi and Ekamai.) The driver looked at me and stated emphatically - :I DON'T SPEAK ENGLISH!"

In English?

Taxi drivers will usually make an effort to understand if they want the business.

[Tatsujin]

It hasnt really helped at all as when I am in a restaurant or venue and order in what I think is perfect Thai, they just look at me with the look of a Phnom Phenn Motorcycle Taxi driver, then look at the Thai I am with for confirmation. She/he says exactly the same thing as I just said then everything is ok.

I get that a lot, especially in 7/11's and other stores . . . given up trying to speak Thai with them now, they understand English better usually.

[Ulysses G.]

The OP's experiences are very different from my own. I have a few friends who speak excellent Thai and Thais understand them instantly. I am guessing that his "perfect Thai" is much like mine - lousy. My Thai is not clear, but it has still helped me a lot over many years.

Also, the manager of my business has taken me to places that we weren't sure about and I have often seen her stop and get directions and I have always been impressed how friendly and helpful everyone is.

[watcharacters]

One last thing, I have a number of western & asian friends who speak, read and write fluent thai. Some have lived here for over 20 years and work at universities or companies and even do official translations into thai or vice versa. Sometimes when we are out together they will speak perfect thai but the listener doesn't understand them OFTEN due to the assumption that the speaker was going to speak in english. I have experienced the same myself many times but then my thai sucks so that is fine.

Rather annoying. Thai's will butcher the English language when they speak, but we can pick up on 50% and understand what they are talking about. Thai's on the other hand, don't bother to listen. They would rather close their ears and look at the Thai girl next to you.

.

I agree fully with your post, kyb789, and would also add that that custom is not limited to Thais.

[Gone]

Thanks everyone for some great feedback.

I just feel that the average expat who has put time into learning Thai is not understood as much as if it is revered. For instance most Thai people that can speak half decent English (broken English) are quite understood by most of us yet us farangs that speak half decent Thai (broken Thai) are not understood as equally.

I for one speak a LOT better then what I understand. That is also a problem for me as when I say something in Thai and the Thai person says "ohh phood Thai chart" then they figure I am fluent and both speaking and understanding so they start talking at warp speed and I just lose the whole conversation lol.

If I know the context of something lets say if I watch the news and there are 2 Thais in a police station sitting in front of 50 kilos of marijuana with there heads down, I can understand the news article fairly well. If I walk by some Thais engaged in a conversation, it takes a lot for me to catch on.

Yes as a lot have said, knowing Thai has definitely served me well and got me out of some bad situations. I had just finished some phone calls when I posted this thread and was in one of those moods when I couldn't get any information and was hung up on after going through 1 hour of searching to get the number of the Government agent I needed to speak with. THAT gets frustrating !!!!!!

[cgphuket]

Funny how most farang think they speak thai better than they actually do. It pains me to hear the typical farang add the words "mak mak" to every english word and thinks he is fluent. I have found that speaking thai in tourist hells like Pattaya and Phuket is useless because 99% of foreigners dont speak it so the Thais assume you cant, and dont bother listening. When I speak Thai out in the sticks I get a much better reception and they make more effort to understand.