Foreign Name Brands That Have Exploited Thais

[StateSix]

Greenwanderer,

Unless I missed it I dont believe anyone has mentioned anything about Europeans being biologically superior to Asians with regards to athletics. Where did that come from?

FIFA was born in Europe because football, or at least an organised version of it, started in Europe and the European nations wanted to bring unifromity to the rules etc, hence a need for organisation.

You say that the branding of the EPL is all about money, money, money. It is a business, of course it is. However I gave some examples of where some EPL clubs are helping Thai clubs and players develop. Of course they want to sell more merchandise etc, but at least they are putting some money back into grass roots football.

What about Thailand finishing third in their World Cup Qualifying group? Was this some sort of conspiracy by EPL clubs?

Finally, you say Japan has pumped millions into baseball in this country. Why is football more popular still then?

[DavieA]

The big foreign name brands may be exploiting the Thais ( in some ways), but the Thais are also exploiting the name brands. Where else in the world can you buy Billabong, Rip Curl and Quicksilver T-shirts and bordies for 200 baht, Rolex's for 199 baht etc etc etc........ If it wasn't for these name brands, who would the Thais be able to copy and keep themselves in a job? In realty, these name brands provide employment for many Thais! Quite funny really hehehehehe....

[samran]

And to further the argument that Thailand is worthy of world competition, here is a list of countries which Thailand has scored more points against (i.e. better winning streak) from 1956 - 2004

Bangledesh

Brunei

Cambodia

Chinese Taipei

Colombia

Egypt (4 games, 2 draws, 2 points each)

Estonia

Finland

Hong Kong

Hungary

India

Indonesia

Kasakhstan

Kenya

Kyrgstan

Laos

Lebonon

Macau

Maldef

Myanmar

Nepal

Oman

Pakistan

Phillipenes

Poland

Seria

Singapore

Sri Lanka

Timor Leste

Trinidad and Tabacco

Uzbekistan

Yemen

Mostly Asian teams yes...but need I point out the 4 European teams, a handful of African, American, and Mideastern teams as well...

Look I know nothing about Soccer, but I am assuming that these teams are the heavy weights in the sport? If so, then how come Thailand hasn't beaten other giants such as Samoa, Andorra, Lichtenstein, Faukland Islands and the West Bum-Fark under 12's? Only then would I start considernig Thailand a world class team.

Also, I am still trying to figure out how Mercedies Benz, with its well engineered, long lasting, quality cars is exploiting Thailand. Maybe you are talking about the red Mercedies 4 baht busses that ply Bangkok roads? Or is that Hino?

[greenwanderer108]

Isn't Russia in Europe?

You better go back to Geography class GreenWanderer!

So you're telling me Russians don't have their own passports and money??? Geographically speaking, Russia is also known as Eurasia...so no it is not officially part of Europe....atleast as far as the census when comparing contintents...hence Asia (including the land mass of Russia/mongolia) is the largest continent by area and population.

Atleast that's how I was taught. Do they teach you in Europe that Russia is part of Europe? Why doesn't this surprise me.

Greenwanderer,

Unless I missed it I dont believe anyone has mentioned anything about Europeans being biologically superior to Asians with regards to athletics. Where did that come from?

...

What about Thailand finishing third in their World Cup Qualifying group? Was this some sort of conspiracy by EPL clubs?

Finally, you say Japan has pumped millions into baseball in this country. Why is football more popular still then?

You missed a lot statesix. Perhaps you should get down from that geezer bandwagon and you would see how ridiculous some of your euro-buds sound...scroll back, I believe it was Doza and Sir Bir in the last 2-3 pages.

Like I said, Thailand finishing third in their group means nothing for the sake of fair comparison... if all of Europe was only allowed 4 seats like Asia, England wouldn't likely make the cut perhaps finishing 3rd or 4th if not worse in their group. (How many European teams have more points in than them in the world rankings??? ) Anyway, if you look back, I believe Thailand did beat the number one and two seats (Korea DPR and UAE I think)

in its matches of that group, just happened to finish with lesser points...

Bottom line is if Thailand and all of Asia had the same odds as any European team, (14 total spots instead of 4) they could easily make the world cup (i.e. if there were 2-3 spots that went to S. Asia alone)

And you'll have to be more specific about 'football being more popular' you mean where? In Thailand as a whole? This is obvious, but the reasons are just as obvious:

Baseball/softball have only recently been introduced / organized in this country. Football has been wide-spread in this country for well over half a century if not longer. Lots of business/money revolves around football---not just athletes, sponsors, and the likes, but as other posters pointed out---gambling as well. Most highschools all over the country have a football (soccer) field and a large majority of the kids couldn't tell you the difference between baseball, softball, and cricket, let alone how to play...

Actually, I know several kids in Thailand that have played baseball in Thailand...they love it more than any other sport. The only difference between them and the Thai kids who don't like baseball is the ones that don't have never even played it before.

[Fast Eddie]

Greenwanderer, it is apparent that you know very little about football. The reason that European teams are in general superior to Asian teams is because they are more talented.

Europe, and South America, are traditional hotbeds of football culture. The organisation of the game, the amount of money that is invested in it at grass roots level, and the quality of playing resources and coaching far exceed that available to Asian youngsters.

Go to Brazil, Argentina, England or Italy and you would see for yourself the level of interest and how much a part of people's lives the game is in those countries. The level of interest and participation doesn't even come close in South East Asia.

To give you a comparison you might understand, imagine Europe putting together an American Football team of home grown players to take on the USA. Who do you think would win? This would not be because Europeans are biologically or athletically inferior, it would be for similar reasons as our football example.

Europe doesn't have the most places because of financial interest, it has the most places because it contains the highest concentration of quality footballing nations. Nobody in any of the regional governing bodies of the game disputes that fact.

As for the EPL, English football is one of the main reasons for football's current level of popularity in Thailand. If the Thai's wanted to (or it was economical for them to do so) they could feed off that interest and establish their own proffesional league. An interest in European football didn't prevent the Japanese from doing just that.

[penzman]

What gets me is the false advertising. Check out KFC's menu, the poster shows a 299 baht meal, bucket of chicken OVERFLOWING with chicken, huge drink cups etc.

6 small pieces and the bucket is really not even half-full. Drink size is medium.

KFC is off my list of junk food.

[richard10365]

I think they would have been better off without Christianity. I think thats a bit over rated.

[ilyushin]

IAI ( Searcher I)

[greenwanderer108]

Greenwanderer, it is apparent that you know very little about football. The reason that European teams are in general superior to Asian teams is because they are more talented.

Europe, and South America, are traditional hotbeds of football culture. The organisation of the game, the amount of money that is invested in it at grass roots level, and the quality of playing resources and coaching far exceed that available to Asian youngsters.

Go to Brazil, Argentina, England or Italy and you would see for yourself the level of interest and how much a part of people's lives the game is in those countries. The level of interest and participation doesn't even come close in South East Asia.

To give you a comparison you might understand, imagine Europe putting together an American Football team of home grown players to take on the USA. Who do you think would win? This would not be because Europeans are biologically or athletically inferior, it would be for similar reasons as our football example.

Europe doesn't have the most places because of financial interest, it has the most places because it contains the highest concentration of quality footballing nations. Nobody in any of the regional governing bodies of the game disputes that fact.

As for the EPL, English football is one of the main reasons for football's current level of popularity in Thailand. If the Thai's wanted to (or it was economical for them to do so) they could feed off that interest and establish their own proffesional league. An interest in European football didn't prevent the Japanese from doing just that.

I agree that :

Football (soccer) was born in Europe. FIFA was born in Europe. FIFA was born at a time when Europeans were still full of themselves (i.e. colonial era in Africa/ SE Asia/ but had faded in the Americas by then) Europeans have a headstart in organized play. Europeans are favored in FIFA with rules that are Biased. Europeans have invested billions of $$$ in the last century to promote / train their teams. Their is more organized football clubs with $$$ in Europe than there are Asia. The Americas have proved themselves better / more talented than Europeans in football even though FIFA still favored Europeans. The main reason why Thais over 20 follow EPL for gambling only.

I don't agree that:

there is more (potential) football / athletic talent in Europe than Asia. FIFA is truly representative of 'world talent'. EPL is the reason why Thais love football or football is even popular here. (With the exception of Germany and Italy), Europe has proved themselves more talented than Asia, Africa

It is a fact that :

Most primary / secondary schools in Thailand have had football (soccer) fields for well over half a century

or in other words

Football has been popular among young Thais long before the EPL hype hit Asia.

In the last world cup 2002, no European teams made it to the final four

(unless you consider Turkey as part of Europe which is questionable in historical / geographical terms)

S. Korea, an Asian team proved themselves better than Spain and Italy, two of the most prized European teams

Japan, an Asian team, finished best (most points) in its group H, which included one European team, Belgium.

England's one and only FIFA title in more than 70 years of FIFA world cup was on its home turm in a 16 team tournament with only one Asian team, North Korea (which knocked out Italy and almost edged Portugal)

Thailand national football team has a higher winning streak against Hungary, Finland, Estonia, and Poland (in the last 50 + years), not to mention Chelsea and Arsenal football clubs (in the last 7 years)

So in conclusion, the only solid conclusion you Euro-dudes can make is that Europe has invested more time and money in the game of soccer, and despite the favorable odds, still have not proved yourselves the world's best whether in olympic or FIFA titles.

[greenwanderer108]

I think they would have been better off without Christianity. I think thats a bit over rated.

Christianity as a concept / philosophy against the existing norm, I agree..

But some of the medical and literary work / advancements that came along with missionary projects in Thai history, not sure I can agree there...

[Wallalai]

KFC, Mac, Pizza Hut are an insult to the world, american rubbish.

Edited April 29, 2006 by Wallalai

[Wallalai]

greenwanderer, an american who want to teach about Europe and football. Shut up please, you don't know what you talk about. Typical american behaviour.

Fock USA.

[Diablo Bob]

Boy somebody woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.......

Flame TV in another thread you start.

Flame a country because you don't agree with greenwanderer108's views. Great thing about the USA we have the traits of all the citizens home countries.......

What do you do for an encore?

[slackula]

Fock USA.

No need to beat around the bush, tell us what you really think!

[moonoi]

Greenwander, I haven't had time read all of this post, so maybe someone else has made this observation.

You comments don't really seem to be anything more than an anti-european rant. If you had a reasonable arguement they maybe I wouldn't dismiss everything you say as complete crap. Clearly you haven't bothered to research anything properly.....you just think that what you say is correct even when several people have pointed out glaring holes in your arguements.

I might add that comparing the EPL and World Cup is not a valid excercise. EPL contains players from around the world.....several top teams have hardly any english players in the 1st team. The World Cup on the other hand the players from each country have to have citizenship of that country. Hence the reason England has only won 1 world cup and Wales, Scotland and Ireland are nowhere.

Also ranting on about EPL branding is wrong....the EPL has nothing to do with branding..its the individual clubs that manage that. Man Utd for instance has its largest supporter base in Asia...not Europe. Hence they like any other business capitalise on that.

Using your arguement I could say Thais' are explioting the British with all there restaurants across the UK.

I'm just waiting for you now to pick on the FIA because they are based in France. And the majority of teams in F1 are based in England...........

Ultimately your just an anti-european with a chip on your shoulder

Also I'd like to point out that part of Russia is indeed part of Europe (which includes the captial Moscow).....I'll quote from the website of a american intelligence (although that is to be debated) organisation the CIA "Location: Northern Asia (the area west of the Urals is considered part of Europe), bordering the Arctic Ocean, between Europe and the North Pacific Ocean" oh and from the geography section of the same site "largest country in the world in terms of area but unfavorably located in relation to major sea lanes of the world; despite its size, much of the country lacks proper soils and climates (either too cold or too dry) for agriculture; Mount El'brus is Europe's tallest peak"

Just for the record I hate football its one of the most boring sports in the world to me (I don't like rugby either) with only cricket and golf being worse in my opinion I like a bit of ice hockey myself...but oh wait a minute wasn't that sport invented in Europe too....but taken over by the Americans when Russian, Finnish and Swedish immigrants took it to North America. My god the American and Canadians have stolen my game so they must be exploiting me coz they say the NHL is the best league .........

[greenwanderer108]

...

If you had a reasonable arguement they maybe I wouldn't dismiss everything you say as complete crap. Clearly you haven't bothered to research anything properly.....you just think that what you say is correct even when several people have pointed out glaring holes in your arguements.

....

You have no validity in your point nor solid grounds in any of your charges. You have charged me without researching properly and saying only crap...then you failed to quote any of my researched facts as false, let alone shown in anyway the flaws in my logic. Perhaps, you lack the skills to provide a legit counter-argument...Let me give you an example of how it's done.

You said

Also I'd like to point out that part of Russia is indeed part of Europe (which includes the captial Moscow).....I'll quote from the website of a american intelligence (although that is to be debated) organisation the CIA "Location: Northern Asia (the area west of the Urals is considered part of Europe), bordering the Arctic Ocean, between Europe and the North Pacific Ocean" oh and from the geography section of the same site "largest country in the world in terms of area but unfavorably located in relation to major sea lanes of the world; despite its size, much of the country lacks proper soils and climates (either too cold or too dry) for agriculture; Mount El'brus is Europe's tallest peak"

...

All your quote did was say exactly what I said here on page six of this thread

…Geographically speaking, Russia is also known as Eurasia…

In case you didn't realize, Eurasia combines the two words Europe / Asia....just common sense for Americans but perhaps not so common knowledge in Europe...anyway the point is, generally speaking Russia is considered Northern Asia as your reference quote from the CIA above has reinforced...Thanks for proving my point

Anyway...you don't like me or agree with my views, that is wonderful, Thaivisa and the world at large needs more diversity. However, if you think you want to debate with me, please bring in research and facts to the thread...not blank personal statements/insults with nothing to back you up.

And as far as the America versus Europe stigma rising here...it's kind of funny. Personally, I have nothing against Europe on a whole. I've never even been there (nor have any big desires to go ). I have ethnic roots in Europe. My son even has a French name...However, I just find it hilarious how butt hurt / personal / nationlistic / and Eurocentric some of the European members can be on this thread.

You don't see the Americans getting so defensive everytime someone makes a negative/critical comment or joke about KFC, George Bush, Budweiser, or American football. But while we're having fun at hurting eachother's feelings, let's have some more look at world football...uh soccer facts

World Football rankings (April 2006)

1. Brazil (a country in South America)

2. Chec Rebulic ( can't say I know anything about Chec as EPL has bought all the football broadcasting time)

3. Netherlands (one European country that knows what they're doing...yay for legal hash!)

4. United States of America (hey, soccer is not even our national sport, maybe that's why the Europeans hate us so much !)

World Mens Football Medals, Athens 2004

Gold - Argentina (another country in South America)

Silver - Peru (certainly not a country in Europe )

Bronze - Italy (bronze is better than nothing)

World Woman's Football Medals, Athens 2004

Gold - United States of America (no comment )

Silver - Brazil (Brazil is the 5th largest country by size and population, bigger/more populated than any European country)

Bronze - Germany (bronze is better than nothing)

Speaking of Europe, they did have some of the greatest ancient philosophers...next to the Chinese of course...Anyway, all you Euro-studs currently blinded by the light....a good reading for you is Plato's Allegory of the Cave (in the Republic)

It will help you come to terms with reality

[richard10365]

Flame a country because you don't agree with greenwanderer108's views. Great thing about the USA we have the traits of all the citizens home countries.......

Or you can say we have all the traits of all the people we took advantage of over the last 200+ years. Blacks, Indians, Chinese, Mexicans, Vietnamese and I'm sure there are others I am leaving out.

But to be fair, we Americans have done a few good deeds along the way. I suppose that makes up for all the pain and suffering we caused by taking advantage of so many people to become the great country we are today.

Now that we have what we want we make it our policy to denounce all others countries in their attempt to pratice democracy using the practices we have used through out our great and glorious history.

[StateSix]

Greenwanderer,

Unless I missed it I dont believe anyone has mentioned anything about Europeans being biologically superior to Asians with regards to athletics. Where did that come from?

...

What about Thailand finishing third in their World Cup Qualifying group? Was this some sort of conspiracy by EPL clubs?

Finally, you say Japan has pumped millions into baseball in this country. Why is football more popular still then?

You missed a lot statesix. Perhaps you should get down from that geezer bandwagon and you would see how ridiculous some of your euro-buds sound...scroll back, I believe it was Doza and Sir Bir in the last 2-3 pages.

Like I said, Thailand finishing third in their group means nothing for the sake of fair comparison... if all of Europe was only allowed 4 seats like Asia, England wouldn't likely make the cut perhaps finishing 3rd or 4th if not worse in their group. (How many European teams have more points in than them in the world rankings??? ) Anyway, if you look back, I believe Thailand did beat the number one and two seats (Korea DPR and UAE I think)

in its matches of that group, just happened to finish with lesser points...

Bottom line is if Thailand and all of Asia had the same odds as any European team, (14 total spots instead of 4) they could easily make the world cup (i.e. if there were 2-3 spots that went to S. Asia alone)

And you'll have to be more specific about 'football being more popular' you mean where? In Thailand as a whole? This is obvious, but the reasons are just as obvious:

Baseball/softball have only recently been introduced / organized in this country. Football has been wide-spread in this country for well over half a century if not longer. Lots of business/money revolves around football---not just athletes, sponsors, and the likes, but as other posters pointed out---gambling as well. Most highschools all over the country have a football (soccer) field and a large majority of the kids couldn't tell you the difference between baseball, softball, and cricket, let alone how to play...

Actually, I know several kids in Thailand that have played baseball in Thailand...they love it more than any other sport. The only difference between them and the Thai kids who don't like baseball is the ones that don't have never even played it before.

Geezer bandwagon???? Nope, don't think so lol. Just putting across my opinion.

Regarding the World Cup, Asia had 39 teams aiming for 4.5 places (8.666 teams for each place, while Europe had 51 teams aiming for 13 places (3.92 teams for each place). Europe actually have 14 places because Germany are the holders, and so automatically qualify.

The Asian World Cup Qualifier second round consisted of 32 teams split into 8 groups of 4. The top team in each group progressed to a third round. Now if Asia had twice the numer of places available (4.33 teams per place) to put them more or less on a par with Europe, then following the same qualification process as above, the top 2 teams could go into the third round, meaning Thailand still would not have qualified. If you look back you will see I listed Thailands results in their group. They won 2, drew 1 and lost 3. They did NOT beat Korea PDR as you state above (they lost 4-1 both times). You were correct about them beating UAE though.

I had a quick flick through the posts from page 4 and still dont see anyone saying anything about Asians being biologically inferior. Could you possily show me a quote.

[greenwanderer108]

Flame a country because you don't agree with greenwanderer108's views. Great thing about the USA we have the traits of all the citizens home countries.......

Or you can say we have all the traits of all the people we took advantage of over the last 200+ years. Blacks, Indians, Chinese, Mexicans, Vietnamese and I'm sure there are others I am leaving out.

But to be fair, we Americans have done a few good deeds along the way. I suppose that makes up for all the pain and suffering we caused by taking advantage of so many people to become the great country we are today.

Now that we have what we want we make it our policy to denounce all others countries in their attempt to pratice democracy using the practices we have used through out our great and glorious history.

'You're not thinking fourth dimensionally' as Doc Brown from Back to the Future would say...

All of our many hardships/wars/conflicts with some of races you mentioned only led to better things...and I wouldn't change a thing...

For example...had Kennedy not been assasinated, LBJ would of never had the authority to give the green light to Vietnam. The Vietcong would have had a field day with the French, and possibly the rest of SE Asia...and most importantly tens of thousands of American soldiers (among other allies) would have never been exposed to SE Asia culture, would have never needed to take R and R in Thailand and Japan...I wouldn't of had the opportunity to be born as my mother would have never migrated to the states...same goes with tens of thousands of other American-Asian offspring that were born as a direct result to the war. And what else...oh yes...Pattaya wouldn't exist as we know it today (not sure if that is a good thing? ) etc. etc.

Sometimes, the ugliest seedlings make the most promising trees...or something like that

[greenwanderer108]

you're right state six,

nobody overtly said that Asians are physically inferior to Europeans...though you and Doza did suggest/infer something similar by stating that all/most of the best teams/players come from Europe and/or the EPL, while 'almost none come from Asia' (which I still think is ballocks)

Anyway, thanks for actually putting valid statistics relating to Thailand and the bias of the world cup...Thailand finishing third in the group doesn't suggest that Thai is 'crap' and unworthy of the world stage....that qualifying round came down to two bad games with Korea DPR (4-1 each game) as you pointed out. Yemen and UAE had nothing on Thailand...which Thailand shut both of them out 3 nill in its matches. Perhaps 2008 will be prove different.

[StateSix]

you're right state six,

nobody overtly said that Asians are physically inferior to Europeans...though you and Doza did suggest/infer something similar by stating that all/most of the best teams/players come from Europe and/or the EPL, while 'almost none come from Asia' (which I still think is ballocks)

Anyway, thanks for actually putting valid statistics relating to Thailand and the bias of the world cup...Thailand finishing third in the group doesn't suggest that Thai is 'crap' and unworthy of the world stage....that qualifying round came down to two bad games with Korea DPR (4-1 each game) as you pointed out. Yemen and UAE had nothing on Thailand...which Thailand shut both of them out 3 nill in its matches. Perhaps 2008 will be prove different.

Cheers Greenwanderer, but I would also like to point out that I never inferred that either. For the record I believe that the EPL is the best national league in the world. That is down to the fact that there are a mix of nationalities in it - European, American (South and North), Asian, Australian. As for national teams, well I believe that Brazil are the most skilful team, and Ronaldinho, the most skilful player. The most skilful Asian player I am aware of is Park, at Manchester United. Very good player.

Finishing 3rd does not mean that Thailand are 'crap', but it does mean that they are not good enough to play in the World Cup 2006. If England had finished 3rd, you could bet your life I would be saying they were crap though.

[Diablo Bob]

For example...had Kennedy not been assasinated, LBJ would of never had the authority to give the green light to Vietnam. The Vietcong would have had a field day with the French, and possibly the rest of SE Asia...

Greenwanderer, you are mistaken here, let's set the record straight.

1) Eisenhower was the President of the US when the French got their ass handed to them in 1954. Under Eisenhower, the "Advisors" were introduced in 1955.

2) Under Kennedy, the "Advisor" compliment increased 10 fold. Under Kennedy, in Thailand, the Air Force Bases which would eventually support the B-52 bombers, the CIA (Air America) were constructed. So you might say Kennedy already gave the green light.

3) Under Johnson, the "Advisors were replaced by regular military.

While the Viet Cong are well known, they never fought the French, that was the Viet Minh. The Viet Cong were a later development, 1960+.

As for a field day, well Laos is today controlled by remenants of the Pathet Lao who threw out the monarchy, and were supported by North Vietnam. The Khmer Rouge were another group supported by the North Vietnamese. So basically, I guess the Communist did have a field day in SE Asia.

Edited April 29, 2006 by Diablo Bob

[richard10365]

Flame a country because you don't agree with greenwanderer108's views. Great thing about the USA we have the traits of all the citizens home countries.......

Or you can say we have all the traits of all the people we took advantage of over the last 200+ years. Blacks, Indians, Chinese, Mexicans, Vietnamese and I'm sure there are others I am leaving out.

But to be fair, we Americans have done a few good deeds along the way. I suppose that makes up for all the pain and suffering we caused by taking advantage of so many people to become the great country we are today.

Now that we have what we want we make it our policy to denounce all others countries in their attempt to pratice democracy using the practices we have used through out our great and glorious history.

'You're not thinking fourth dimensionally' as Doc Brown from Back to the Future would say...

All of our many hardships/wars/conflicts with some of races you mentioned only led to better things...and I wouldn't change a thing...

For example...had Kennedy not been assasinated, LBJ would of never had the authority to give the green light to Vietnam. The Vietcong would have had a field day with the French, and possibly the rest of SE Asia...and most importantly tens of thousands of American soldiers (among other allies) would have never been exposed to SE Asia culture, would have never needed to take R and R in Thailand and Japan...I wouldn't of had the opportunity to be born as my mother would have never migrated to the states...same goes with tens of thousands of other American-Asian offspring that were born as a direct result to the war. And what else...oh yes...Pattaya wouldn't exist as we know it today (not sure if that is a good thing? ) etc. etc.

Sometimes, the ugliest seedlings make the most promising trees...or something like that

Well, I am happy things worked out for you and your family and lucky for you so many people had to die and suffer for you to be born.

Put yourself in the shoes of the victims. Do you think if they had a choice for things to be different they would have said no to that? I'm sure the North Vietnamese would have gladly worked with the Americans had they initially accepted Ho Chi Mehn's request before the Americans got involved assisting the wealthy rich land owners who got their power by collaborating with the French. After all, the North Vietnamese were fighting for their freedom the same as the Americans had done at one time as well.

Do you think the American Indians would have liked to be neighbors with the new American country instead of being hunted down and robbed of their land as well as having their families killed?

Take a closer look at our American history and ask yourself is it really something to be proud of? Is being great because you stole from someone else something to be proud of?

If you say yes and that is your logic then you should have no problem going into a local convience store on your way home from school or work and robbing it. Or maybe grabbing some girl you think is pretty and having your way with her. Or maybe even shoting someone who makes you angry. Because after all....that is the great American way. Our history is full of these kinds of values. Our motto should be....if its good....and we want it...we will take it.....and after, come up with some lame excuse to justify our actions.

The great American dream. For some....its a nightmare.

[Diablo Bob]

"I'm sure the North Vietnamese would have gladly worked with the Americans had they initially accepted Ho Chi Mehn's request before the Americans got involved assisting the wealthy rich land owners who got their power by collaborating with the French. After all, the North Vietnamese were fighting for their freedom the same as the Americans had done at one time as well."

Actually, the wealthy landowners were never even considered or part of the debate.....

In 1945, when Uncle Ho issued the Declaration of Independence of Vietnam from France, which is remarkebly similar to the US Declaration, he in fact was supported by the US. It wasn't until Stalin decided on his land grab, that the US & Britian decided they needed allies against the Red Horde, so the US agreed to support Frances colonial claims in Vietnam. This policy was initially opposed by Truman, but Dulles prevailed. At this point, the US would not have gotten involved in Vietnam, but when Uncle Ho went to the Soviets for support they became the enemy. If they had gone to China the US response would have been totally different, because in 1955m China was never considered a significant threat.

But you are correct, it is truly sad that umteen amounts of Vietnamese, 58000 American Soldiers and over 20000 Foreign Soldiers were killed, over a country that only wanted to be free.

It wasn't until after my return from the conflict, that I started researching and IF I knew then what I know today, well ......... I would probably still go again.

[Ulysses G.]

Take a closer look at our American history and ask yourself is it really something to be proud of?

Compare us to England and we don't look so bad.

Strap those <deleted> to the cannons before firing them boys!

[Diablo Bob]

"Compare us to England and we don't look so bad."

Actually, in comparison to Spain, France & The Netherlands, England actually comes out looking quite good. They were the only ones who left a country in better shape than when they arrived. The countries had governments, civil works & education systems. Look at the ex-English holdings today and you are looking at quite a few success stories.

[Tarragona]

you're right state six,

nobody overtly said that Asians are physically inferior to Europeans...though you and Doza did suggest/infer something similar by stating that all/most of the best teams/players come from Europe and/or the EPL, while 'almost none come from Asia' (which I still think is ballocks)

Anyway, thanks for actually putting valid statistics relating to Thailand and the bias of the world cup...Thailand finishing third in the group doesn't suggest that Thai is 'crap' and unworthy of the world stage....that qualifying round came down to two bad games with Korea DPR (4-1 each game) as you pointed out. Yemen and UAE had nothing on Thailand...which Thailand shut both of them out 3 nill in its matches. Perhaps 2008 will be prove different.

I don't mind reading your views - though it did take me a while to realize that you weren't just out fishing. Your thinking on the football is genuinely flawed though.

I seem to remember the games where you say Thailand beat Finland and Estonia were King's Cup games. In that competition the European sides are club sides (and not top club sides at that) that are sent over as representatives of their country. They are NOT the national sides but the Thais refer to them by the country name for the purposes of the competition.

The games Thailand has played against European club sides are not competitive matches. They're the kind of game where the manager replaces the whole team at half-time and then brings on a few kids in the second half. The Thais take it very seriously of course. The atmosphere is great because most people support both teams.

In the World Cup qualifiers, even if Thailand had topped their group they would still have had to go into more playoffs. That's where they got to last time around, only to be whacked by the Saudis, though I think they did well against Iran.

The thing about the World Cup is that there are too many teams in it now. They could cut it down by reducing the number of European places but there is really no footballing justification for increasing the number of Asian places - yet. I'm sure this will happen eventually, just as it did with the Africans. Very few Asians have yet to make it in the top professional leagues.

You also do Thai football fans a great injustice by saying they are not interested in their own national team. Listen to the phone-ins on the the sports radio shows. I sometimes go and watch Thai league games with a couple of friends and their main complaint is how far ahead even Singapore and Vietnam are in their organization of the game at the professional level. The Thai FA is very poorly run (surprise surprise). They do go and watch the national team but not always because the games are always shown live on public TV and also Thai international games often seem to be played at times when people are at work or during the evening rush hour.

A few years ago I would have agreed that the Premier League was over-rated. The Italian league was better technically but these days I think the balance has shifted, along with the money of course.

Finally, if you're referring to financial exploitation, then I'd have to disagree with you here. I can't see how the the Premier League makes anything directly from the Thais. The TV rights are passed on by the UK broadcasters I think, and the clubs make very very little, if anything, from the sale of merchandise here. Overseas sales hardly register on the profits column, even for Manc Utd.

Edited April 29, 2006 by Tarragona

[greenwanderer108]

Flame a country because you don't agree with greenwanderer108's views. Great thing about the USA we have the traits of all the citizens home countries.......

Or you can say we have all the traits of all the people we took advantage of over the last 200+ years. Blacks, Indians, Chinese, Mexicans, Vietnamese and I'm sure there are others I am leaving out.

But to be fair, we Americans have done a few good deeds along the way. I suppose that makes up for all the pain and suffering we caused by taking advantage of so many people to become the great country we are today.

Now that we have what we want we make it our policy to denounce all others countries in their attempt to pratice democracy using the practices we have used through out our great and glorious history.

'You're not thinking fourth dimensionally' as Doc Brown from Back to the Future would say...

All of our many hardships/wars/conflicts with some of races you mentioned only led to better things...and I wouldn't change a thing...

For example...had Kennedy not been assasinated, LBJ would of never had the authority to give the green light to Vietnam. The Vietcong would have had a field day with the French, and possibly the rest of SE Asia...and most importantly tens of thousands of American soldiers (among other allies) would have never been exposed to SE Asia culture, would have never needed to take R and R in Thailand and Japan...I wouldn't of had the opportunity to be born as my mother would have never migrated to the states...same goes with tens of thousands of other American-Asian offspring that were born as a direct result to the war. And what else...oh yes...Pattaya wouldn't exist as we know it today (not sure if that is a good thing? ) etc. etc.

Sometimes, the ugliest seedlings make the most promising trees...or something like that

Well, I am happy things worked out for you and your family and lucky for you so many people had to die and suffer for you to be born.

Put yourself in the shoes of the victims. Do you think if they had a choice for things to be different they would have said no to that? I'm sure the North Vietnamese would have gladly worked with the Americans had they initially accepted Ho Chi Mehn's request before the Americans got involved assisting the wealthy rich land owners who got their power by collaborating with the French. After all, the North Vietnamese were fighting for their freedom the same as the Americans had done at one time as well.

Do you think the American Indians would have liked to be neighbors with the new American country instead of being hunted down and robbed of their land as well as having their families killed?

Take a closer look at our American history and ask yourself is it really something to be proud of? Is being great because you stole from someone else something to be proud of?

If you say yes and that is your logic then you should have no problem going into a local convience store on your way home from school or work and robbing it. Or maybe grabbing some girl you think is pretty and having your way with her. Or maybe even shoting someone who makes you angry. Because after all....that is the great American way. Our history is full of these kinds of values. Our motto should be....if its good....and we want it...we will take it.....and after, come up with some lame excuse to justify our actions.

The great American dream. For some....its a nightmare.

Like I said, I wouldn't change anything...referring to the events of Vietnam... If such a conflict never arose, I simply wouldn't exist...if I had had too much sympathy for victims of the Vietnam conflict...I wouldn't even have a basis for being born---to even have had sympathy in the first place...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not justifying anything our country did...especially with regards to the Natives (Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee is one of my favorite books)...but from the standpoint of a scientist, one can not regret nor dream of changing history...only learn from it...

Even if you had a time machine...by going back and changing anything...would it be for the better? Many had to die because of conflicts like the Vietnam affair, but in turn, nature gave us back more in return... me for starters

To put it into perspective of now, one can look at Iraq or Afghan the same way. How many potential half mid eastern - whites will be born from the greed of GWB and company??? Unknown, and while it's not means for justification, it is what it is...

off topic, we digress...

[moonoi]

...

If you had a reasonable arguement they maybe I wouldn't dismiss everything you say as complete crap. Clearly you haven't bothered to research anything properly.....you just think that what you say is correct even when several people have pointed out glaring holes in your arguements.

....

You have no validity in your point nor solid grounds in any of your charges. You have charged me without researching properly and saying only crap...then you failed to quote any of my researched facts as false, let alone shown in anyway the flaws in my logic. Perhaps, you lack the skills to provide a legit counter-argument...Let me give you an example of how it's done.

You said

Also I'd like to point out that part of Russia is indeed part of Europe (which includes the captial Moscow).....I'll quote from the website of a american intelligence (although that is to be debated) organisation the CIA "Location: Northern Asia (the area west of the Urals is considered part of Europe), bordering the Arctic Ocean, between Europe and the North Pacific Ocean" oh and from the geography section of the same site "largest country in the world in terms of area but unfavorably located in relation to major sea lanes of the world; despite its size, much of the country lacks proper soils and climates (either too cold or too dry) for agriculture; Mount El'brus is Europe's tallest peak"

...

All your quote did was say exactly what I said here on page six of this thread

]…Geographically speaking, Russia is also known as Eurasia…

In case you didn't realize, Eurasia combines the two words Europe / Asia....just common sense for Americans but perhaps not so common knowledge in Europe...anyway the point is, generally speaking Russia is considered Northern Asia as your reference quote from the CIA above has reinforced...Thanks for proving my point [/b]

Anyway...you don't like me or agree with my views, that is wonderful, Thaivisa and the world at large needs more diversity. However, if you think you want to debate with me, please bring in research and facts to the thread...not blank personal statements/insults with nothing to back you up.

And as far as the America versus Europe stigma rising here...it's kind of funny. Personally, I have nothing against Europe on a whole. I've never even been there (nor have any big desires to go ). I have ethnic roots in Europe. My son even has a French name...However, I just find it hilarious how butt hurt / personal / nationlistic / and Eurocentric some of the European members can be on this thread.

You don't see the Americans getting so defensive everytime someone makes a negative/critical comment or joke about KFC, George Bush, Budweiser, or American football. But while we're having fun at hurting eachother's feelings, let's have some more look at world football...uh soccer facts

World Football rankings (April 2006)

1. Brazil (a country in South America)

2. Chec Rebulic ( can't say I know anything about Chec as EPL has bought all the football broadcasting time)

3. Netherlands (one European country that knows what they're doing...yay for legal hash!)

4. United States of America (hey, soccer is not even our national sport, maybe that's why the Europeans hate us so much !)

World Mens Football Medals, Athens 2004

Gold - Argentina (another country in South America)

Silver - Peru (certainly not a country in Europe )

Bronze - Italy (bronze is better than nothing)

World Woman's Football Medals, Athens 2004

Gold - United States of America (no comment )

Silver - Brazil (Brazil is the 5th largest country by size and population, bigger/more populated than any European country)

Bronze - Germany (bronze is better than nothing)

Speaking of Europe, they did have some of the greatest ancient philosophers...next to the Chinese of course...Anyway, all you Euro-studs currently blinded by the light....a good reading for you is Plato's Allegory of the Cave (in the Republic)

It will help you come to terms with reality

Actually I didn't prove your point at all. All of Russias' financial information etc comes under Europe same as for Sports events etc. So the previous poster was correct in stating Russia is part of Europe, not Asia.

Yes I know what Eurasia means no need to resort to petty insults because you can't accept that your wrong.

btw what makes you think I'm from a European nation? Is that because I defended them, does that automatically make me European?

And as for your comment about Americans again would have to disagree they are just as likely if not even more so jump to the defence of there own brands, sports teams etc as any european should someone criticise them.......Americans are no better than anyone else so get off your high moral ground. You ain't so great

With regards to your football results...I believe they are from the Olympics which are played by amateur not professional players so...it doesn't really say much.

I do believe that your thread title is wrong.....none of what you have stated is really exploitation....except in the sense that the companies/sports teams are exploiting the popularity of there brands in Asia.

[richard10365]

Like I said, I wouldn't change anything...referring to the events of Vietnam... If such a conflict never arose, I simply wouldn't exist...if I had had too much sympathy for victims of the Vietnam conflict...I wouldn't even have a basis for being born---to even have had sympathy in the first place...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not justifying anything our country did...especially with regards to the Natives (Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee is one of my favorite books)...but from the standpoint of a scientist, one can not regret nor dream of changing history...only learn from it...

Even if you had a time machine...by going back and changing anything...would it be for the better? Many had to die because of conflicts like the Vietnam affair, but in turn, nature gave us back more in return... me for starters

To put it into perspective of now, one can look at Iraq or Afghan the same way. How many potential half mid eastern - whites will be born from the greed of GWB and company??? Unknown, and while it's not means for justification, it is what it is...

off topic, we digress...

Listening to your attitude about the victims of the past, people like you are doomed to repeat history and not learn from it.

Had you not been born you would not have missed anything. The only reason many had to die was because of the greed of the USA.

I am starting to see why people hate the USA and why 911 will probably be viewed as the first major terrorist bombings on American soil out of many.

Americans have a very narrow view of the rest of the world. Most never travel outside its borders and the only perspective they have of other cultures is what is provided by the State Department or CNN.

Speaking of CNN...The more I watch CNN the more I am convinced they are the USA equivalent to Aljazeera.

This narrow view of the world by the majority of American is how people like GWB are able to influence people in the USA enough to go to war.

It's a good thing your mom immigrated from Southeast Asia to the USA. You fit right in.

If you feel so strongly about your beliefs, why don't you go talk to your local U.S. military recruiter about joining the war on terror (if your qualified to join). If your having problems finding a recruiter check out the recruiting website at www.goarmy.com. THe U.S. Army has a great branding campaign you can be part of.