Chiang Mai girls, as seen by...

[CMHomeboy78]

Chiang Mai girls, as seen by farangs; beginning with the observations of Ralph Fitch in 1587.

My topic is a random selection of comments on Chiang Mai girls by notable farangs. I will add to it, if and when I find more material that seems interesting and appropriate.

This, my first post will include Ralph Fitch, M.Grandjean, and Sir Robert Schomburgk. The second, following shortly, will be Holt Hallett's somewhat prudish, but interesting, views on the girls - and a ladyboy - of Chiang Mai in the late 1870's. He visited the city several times in connection with the railway surveys he was conducting in Lanna Thai. The concluding entry will be an experience of my own in 1980, two years after I first started coming here and the year before I married and settled down - more or less.

So here's to the girls of Chiang Mai with the lovely manners and refinement that you so often find among all classes of people here; and also to the mercenary little bimbos who work the bars. Farang who marry usually get the type they deserve - good or bad... but not always. I certainly got a better one than I deserved, and I'm thankful for that.

Anyway, here they are, as seen by...

Ralph Fitch. English traveller and adventurer. He has the distinction of being the first European on record to visit Chiang Mai in 1587. Excerpts taken from The Voyage of Master Ralph Fitch, in Hakluyt's Voyages and Discoveries. London 1599.

"I went from Pegu to Jamahey [Chiang Mai], which is in the Countrey of the Langeiannes [Lanna?], whom we call the Jangomes; it is five and twentie dayes journey northeast from Pegu, in which journey I passed many fruitfull and pleasant Countreyes and it hath many faire rivers. The houses are very bad, made of canes and covered with straw. Heere are many wild Buffes, and elephants.

Jamahey is a very faire and great town, with faire houses of stone, well peopled, the streets are very large, the men very well set and strong, with a cloth about them, bare headed and bare footed: for in all these Countreyes they wear no shooes. The women bee much fairer than those of Pegu. Heere in all these Countreyes they have no wheat. They make some cakes of rice.

Hither to Jamahey come many Marchants out of China, and bring great store of Muske, Gold, Silver, and many other things of China worke.Heere is great store of victuals: they have such plenty that they will not milk the Buffes, as they do in all other places. Heere is a great store of Copper and Benjamin [benzoin].

In these Countreyes when the people be sicke they make a vowe to offer meat unto the Divell, if they escape: and when they be recovered they make a banquet with many Pipes and Drums and other instruments, and dauncing all the night, and their friends come and bring gifts, Cocos, Figges, Arrecaes and other fruits, and with great dauncing and rejoicing they offer to the Divell, and say, they give to the Divell to eate, and drive him out. When they be dauncing and playing they will cry and hallow very loud: and in this sort they say they drive him away, and when they be sicke a Tallipoie [buddhist monk] or two every night doth sit by them and sing , to please the Divell that he should not hurt them.

And if any die hee is carried upon a great frame made like a tower, with a covering all gilded with gold made of canes, carried with fourteene or sixteene men with Drums and Pipes and other instruments playing before him to a place out of town and there is burned. He is accompanied with all his friends and neighbours, all men: and they give to the Tallipoies or Priests many mats and cloth: and then they return to the house and make a feast for two days and then the Wife and all the neighbours Wives and her friends goe to the place where he was burned, and there they sit a certain time and cry, and gather the peeces of bones which be left unburned and burie them, and then return to their houses and make an end to all mourning. And the men and women which be neare kin doe shave their heads, which they doe not use except it be for the death of a friend: for they much esteem their hare.

In Pegu, and in all the Countreyes of Ava, Langeiannes, Siam, and the Bramas, the men weare bunches or little round balls in their privie members, some of them weare two and some three, they cut the skinne and so put them in, one into one side and another into the other side; which they doe when they bee five and twentie or thirty yeeres old, and at their pleasure they take one or more of them out as they think good. When they bee married the Husband is for every child which his Wife hath, to put in one until he come to three, and then no more: for they say the women doe desire them. They were invented because they should not abuse the Male sexe. For in times past all those Countreyes were so given to that Villanie that they were very scarce of people,"

M.Grandjean. French Catholic missionary. Visited Chiang Mai for two and a half months in 1844. The quote is taken from his report published in the Annales de la Propagation de la Foi.

"As regards the women, they are more active, more industrious, and more intelligent than the men. They have an undoubted empire over their husbands, and can drive them away when they are not content with them."

Sir Robert Schomburgk. German born British diplomat. Visited Chiang Mai for thirteen days on an official mission in 1860. The quote is taken from a letter to his cousin.

"The inhabitants are of fine physique and lighter in colour than the Siamese, above all the fairer sex, among whom many as regards their complexion can be compared to Italian women. Unlike the Siamese they wear their hair, which is coal-black and shiny, a la Chinoise, whereas the Siamese women cut it short, only leaving a round patch covered with hair, similar to those of a brush, on their heads. The unmarried women wear dresses woven out of silk, which reach only half-way; the bosom is uncovered - they merely throw a shawl of light silk and bright colours - which hides nothing - across their bosoms. The married women, on the other hand, conceal their bosoms with a thicker shawl, thrown crosswise across their breasts,"

To be continued.....

[Chicog]

Did none of these blokes ever go down Loi Kroh then?

[CMHomeboy78]

Did none of these blokes ever go down Loi Kroh then?

No doubt some of them did, but I've never come across any references to it. I don't think there was much to comment on.

The seedy side of town seems to have been on the other side of the river, Charoen Rat to Fah Ham. That was where the "bankrupts of Bangkok" established a community in the 19th century, and the missionaries often remarked on the presence of "soiled doves" among them.

[willyumiii]

Disappointed.

Was expecting photos!

[beau thai]

Disappointed.

Was expecting photos!

plus one - where is Dave2 with his camera when you need him??

[KhunOr]

"As regards the women, they are more active, more industrious, and more intelligent than the men."

Some things haven't changed then!

[Chiengmaijoe]

Did none of these blokes ever go down Loi Kroh then?

No doubt some of them did, but I've never come across any references to it. I don't think there was much to comment on.

The seedy side of town seems to have been on the other side of the river, Charoen Rat to Fah Ham. That was where the "bankrupts of Bangkok" established a community in the 19th century, and the missionaries often remarked on the presence of "soiled doves" among them.

There were no girly bars (are we allowed to say that?) on Loi Kroh Rd until quite recently. In fact, when I first came here there weren't ANY bars on Loi Kroh Rd. That was in the olden days.

[Beetlejuice]

Ralph Fitch was thrown out of the country after only 2 weeks here, because being an explorer fell under the prohibited professions act for farangs. He was accused and fined for sailing into Siam without a visa, he become deterred by the dual pricing, plus scammed and beaten up by the wind raft owners in the Kingdom of Pattayarna.

[noise]

Disappointed.

Was expecting photos!

plus one - where is Dave2 with his camera when you need him??

[dave2]

re

where is Dave2 with his camera when you need him??

i thought about it and could post hundreds

but i dont want to kill the ops history

lesson

or need a holiday

dave2

pic .. a huge cat

[beau thai]

Miaow - thanks Dave2!!

[CMHomeboy78]

Chiang Mai girls, as seen by...

Holt Hallett. British civil engineer who conducted a railway survey of Lanna Thai in 1876 and visited Chiang Mai on several occasions. The quotes are taken from his book, A Thousand Miles on an Elephant in the Shan States. London 1890.

"The city of Zimme [Chiang Mai] is divided into two parts, the one embracing the other like a letter L on the south and east sides. The inner city faces the cardinal points, and is walled and moated all round. The walls are of brick, 22 feet high and crenelated on top, where they are 3 1/2 feet broad. The moat surrounding the walls is 30 feet wide and 7 feet deep. The outer city is more than half a mile broad, and is partly walled and partly palisaded on its exterior sides. Both cities are entered by gates leading in and out of a fortified courtyard.

The inner city contains the palace of the king, the residences of many of the nobility and wealthy men, and numerous religious buildings. In the outer city the houses are packed closer together than in the inner one. The gardens are smaller and the population is more dense. The roads in both cities are laid out at right angles to each other; no rubbish is allowed to be placed outside the gardens of the houses, which are palisaded; water is led into the town from a stream flowing from Loi Soo Tayp [Doi Suthep], and the whole place has an air of trim neatness about it.

The following day, accompanied by Drs Cushing and McGilvary, I made a round of visits to the king and members of the Court at Zimme. Leaving the house, we followed the bank of the river to the timber bridge, and crossed it to the western suburbs. I entered one of the shops to purchase some Chinese umbrellas, as mine were the worse for wear, and was served by a person dressed in ordinary female costume, who seemed to be very masculine in appearance, and on telling Dr McGilvary, he informed me that the individual was an hermaphrodite; that this peculiar form of Natures freaks was by no means uncommon in the country; and that all such people were obliged to dress in female costume.

It is a pretty sight in the early morning to watch the women and girls from the neighbouring villages streaming over the bridge on their way to the market, passing along in single file, with their baskets dangling from each end of a shoulder bamboo, or accurately poised on their heads. The younger women move like youthful Dianas, with a quick, firm, and elastic tread, and in symmetry of form resemble the ideal models of Grecian art.

The ordinary costume of these graceful maidens consists of flowers in their hair, which shines like a raven's wing, and is combed back and arranged in a neat and beautiful knot; a petticoat or skirt, frequently embroidered near the bottom with silk, worsted cotton or gold and silver thread; and at times a pretty silk or gauze scarf cast carelessly over their bosom and one shoulder. Of late years, however, the missionaries have persuaded their female converts and the girls in their schools to wear a neat white jacket, and the custom is gradually spreading through the city and into the neighbouring villages.

After passing through the gates of the outer city we entered the market, which extends for more than half a mile to the gates of the inner city, and beyond them for some distance towards the palace.

Passing from the outer to the inner town, we continued along the main road [Tha Phae/Ratchadamnern] until we came to the enclosure wall of the palace grounds. The gate of the palace lies 1140 yards from the entrance of the inner town [Tha Phae Gate], and leads into an extensive court containing several buildings. The palace faces the gate, and is a substantial one-storied building, slightly Chinese in aspect, with brick walls, plastered over with an excellent cement, and a tiled roof.

Ascending a flight of steps, we entered the audience-hall, which occupied the whole front of the building. The floor of the hall is inlaid with various woods, several chandeliers hung from the ceiling, and the walls were adorned with long, narrow, gilt-framed mirrors and mural paintings. Through the doors leading into the private apartments some elegantly designed carved lattice-work partitions were seen, which served as screens to the interior of the palace.

A few minutes after we were seated, the king, dressed in a green silk loongyee or skirt, and a white cotton jacket with gold buttons, entered the hall, and after shaking hands, welcomed us in a quiet and dignified manner, tea was then brought in, and we seated ourselves round the table, after a few preliminary remarks, Dr McGilvary told him the object of my visit, and the great boon to his country that the construction of a railway to connect it with Burmah and China would be. I explained to him that I had made three railways in England, and therefore he might rely upon what I said. Railways were made in various parts of the world over much more difficult hills than those lying between Zimme and Maulmaun.

I then asked him to aid me in collecting information, and in choosing the best route through his territories by having me provided with the best guides, and by issuing instructions to the governors of the provinces to assist me by every means in their power. This he promised to do; and after a little general conversation, we shook hands with him, thanked him for his kindness, and departed.

We next visited Chow Oo-boon-la-wa-na [Princess Ubonwanna], the only sister of the queen, and the daughter of the late king of Zimme.

Ascending the the steps of the house we entered a broad veranda, where several of the princess's women were engaged on fancy needlework, and in weaving, showing great skill and taste in the designs and workmanship.

After being introduced to the princess and her little daughter by Dr McGilvary, and admiring the embroidery which was worked in coloured silks and gold and silver threads, I broached the subject of my visit by telling her about the proposed railway, and saying that the missionaries had told me that she was the best person to apply to about the trade of the country, and that I should be deeply obliged if she would give me what information she could upon the subject.

In reply she said that she was delighted to hear about the railway. She was one of the largest traders in the country, and would do what she could to further the project. A railway, she knew would bring wealth to the country, and carry the produce cheaply away.Everyone, nobles and people, would be glad if a railway was made to connect their country with Burmah and China.

In taking leave, the princess promised to aid me in getting elephants for continuing my journey, and said she hoped we would give her the pleasure of our company at dinner before we left."

On Hallett's return to Bangkok he and his party went down the Ping River, making frequent stops at riverside villages; commenting and noting observations as he went. Here are a few:

"In the afternoon of June 3rd we reached Muang Haut, which lies 82 miles from Zimme. On the way between Zimme and Muang Haut I passed and took the names of 59 villages. Other villages were hidden from view by the long, low-lying orchard-clad islands, which are numerous for some miles below the city.

We passed Muang Haut and halted for the night at Ban Nang En. In wandering through the village, noticing the beautifully embroidered skirts worn by the women, I told my steersman to call the women together and let them know that I wished to purchase some of their handiwork. Soon the shore was thronged with people, some with new garments, and others carrying one just stripped from their person and replaced by one of a plainer nature. The designs would have done credit to the best of our art schools at home, and the colours were blended and chosen with exquisite taste. The prices asked were so low, and the embroidery so extensive and so carefully done, that the women could have earned barely a shilling for a fortnight's work. I therefore presume that the embroidery is carried on in spare moments as a labour of love, and is not expected in any other way to repay the labour expended upon it.

Whilst sitting in my armchair enjoying a smoke after my bath, and waiting for dinner to be served, the young women of the village came trooping down to the river to fetch water for household purposes; and afterwards returned chattering and laughing, and, to my consternation, in a twinkling, disrobed themselves within a few yards of my chair, and skurried into the water like so many young ducks. I thus gained absolute proof that some at least of the Zimme Shans wear clothing solely for the sake of warmth, and are as devoid of shame as Adam and Eve were in Paradise."

CMHomeboy78. American born artist. Long-time Chiang Mai resident. 1980 remembered.

She was only eighteen. Too young for me at thirty-two and I knew it. Mature for her age, and intelligent. Attractive rather than being exceptionally pretty. Sure of herself; not overly quiet like so many other well-brought-up Thai girls. Easy to talk to - she wanted to learn my language and I wanted to learn hers.

She had been sent here from a provincial city to study for the CMU entrance exams. We were living next to each other in small bungalows in the garden compound of an old Lanna style house just within the Kampang Muang near Tha Phae Gate.

At the open door of my little anteroom/art studio she would often look in at what I was working on, and occasionally comment. My painting of a Balinese girl-dancer, looking pensive while having her hair arranged by an old retainer was nearing completion, and elicited the remark "You have filling"... what on earth could she mean... you have filling? Then it suddenly dawned on me... "feeling", she meant that I had feeling! "Well, thank you very much, I'm glad you think so" was my awkward reply. There is a tide in the affairs of men... etc., etc.

The following year I married a girl from a fairly well-to-do family and started living among Thais as the head of a household. It has been a very good life; but hardly a day has gone by since then that I haven't thought about those earlier times and the girl who taught me the meaning of the lovely word sa-nay.

As already stated in my first post, I will continue this topic if and when I find more material that may be of interest to those who share my love for Chiang Mai and what remains of the traditional ways of life here.

[KhunOr]

"...and at times a pretty silk or gauze scarf cast carelessly over their bosom and one shoulder. Of late years, however, the missionaries have persuaded their female converts and the girls in their schools to wear a neat white jacket, and the custom is gradually spreading through the city and into the neighbouring villages."

Those damned missionaries!

[CMHomeboy78]

"As regards the women, they are more active, more industrious, and more intelligent than the men."

Some things haven't changed then!

Agreed.

Grandjean's comments on women - as noted in an earlier topic - are similar to those expressed by Portuguese mercenaries in the 16th century, and by other travellers in other periods, up to, and including our own.

Ian Bushell in a recent talk on Chiang Mai history observed that Ralph Fitch's "...focus on property, riches, and women has a somewhat contemporary ring about it."

Plus ca change...

Edited October 10, 2013 by CMHomeboy78

[JingerBen]

Any farang who lived here in the 1970's and early '80s would have stories to tell about the girls and a lot of other things as well.

The boom-times that started after that changed everything, even the people.

The generation that has come of age since then are as different from the older Thais as were the 1960s generation in the west from their parents and grandparents who had lived through the Depression and WWII.

Worlds apart.

[CMHomeboy78]

Any farang who lived here in the 1970's and early '80s would have stories to tell about the girls and a lot of other things as well.

The boom-times that started after that changed everything, even the people.

The generation that has come of age since then are as different from the older Thais as were the 1960s generation in the west from their parents and grandparents who had lived through the Depression and WWII.

Worlds apart.

The "boom-times" you mention were the rapid changes and modernization of Chiang Mai in the 1980s. But it had been going on long before that, albeit at a slower pace.

The end result is what we see today; a city that is comparable to others in developed and developing countries. If it has lost much of its old character, it has gained a new one. A consumer's delight, with goods and food from all over the world, modern hospitals, an international airport, and a car in every garage.

That's what the majority of Thais want. They are what is driving the trend. Farangs just play supporting roles.

Chiang Mai lost its sovereignty, for all practical purposes, in the early 1870s with the appointment of a resident Siamese commissioner from Bangkok. The Lanna dynasty continued to hold government posts until 1939, but they had no real power.

That period saw the destruction of much of Chiang Mai's cultural heritage. The suppression of the written [Tua Muang] language and the attempted suppression of the spoken [Kahm Muang] language.

The disappearance of almost all of the royal buildings and residences; the Kampang Muang virtually levelled and the corner forts devastated. The massive gates with their fortified inner courtyards obliterated and replaced with stage-set structures nothing at all like the originals.

These changes took place slowly between the 1870s and the 1960s and were part of what the central government saw as the manifest destiny of the country to be united as a whole.

[BonnieandClyde]

Fascinating information about Chiang Mai.

Too bad there has been so little intelligent interest shown.

As artists [OK, craftspeople] ourselves, we can relate to your 1980 remembered story. It must have been a wonderful time to have been here. Sorry we missed it.

But Chiang Mai as it still is seems like a unique place if you can see past the concrete and glass and plastic, to what is left from the past.

So count us in with those who share your love for our city.

[KRS1]

"As regards the women, they are more active, more industrious, and more intelligent than the men."

Some things haven't changed then!

quite true, seems like farang perverts have been coming to Thailand since 1587.

...and they still think the water buffaloes are really sick.

[CMHomeboy78]

Fascinating information about Chiang Mai.

Too bad there has been so little intelligent interest shown.

As artists [OK, craftspeople] ourselves, we can relate to your 1980 remembered story. It must have been a wonderful time to have been here. Sorry we missed it.

But Chiang Mai as it still is seems like a unique place if you can see past the concrete and glass and plastic, to what is left from the past.

So count us in with those who share your love for our city.

Thank you for your heart-warming reply.

You sound like the type of people who have made a meaningful life for yourselves here.

Doing creative work is the best possible way to relate to, and live among, these instinctively artistic people.

Yes, Chiang Mai has changed over the years - but so has my wife. She's not the laughing girl that I married thirty-two years ago. But I still love her. Just as I still love Chiang Mai

All the best.

[CMHomeboy78]

"As regards the women, they are more active, more industrious, and more intelligent than the men."

Some things haven't changed then!

quite true, seems like farang perverts have been coming to Thailand since 1587.

...and they still think the water buffaloes are really sick.

I don't get your point.

"farang perverts" have always found Thailand congenial, for a number of reasons - few of which reflect favorably upon Thais.

But Grandjean's comment on what he saw as the superiority of Chiang Mai women doesn't imply perversion - either his or theirs.

You mention "1587"; the year of Ralph Fitch's arrival here. His bizarre fascination with penis balls, and the women who "...doe desire them", merely puts him in company with Marco Polo and other early travellers who took a great interest in all things sexual in the countries they visited.

That's how I see it.

Thanks for your interest.

[jaideeguy]

"...and at times a pretty silk or gauze scarf cast carelessly over their bosom and one shoulder. Of late years, however, the missionaries have persuaded their female converts and the girls in their schools to wear a neat white jacket, and the custom is gradually spreading through the city and into the neighbouring villages."

Those damned missionaries!

Those 'damned missionaries' did the same everywhere they went..............Hawaii, north and south America, Philippines..............in the name of God.

They seem to have missed Pattaya, so far.

[cloudhopper]

'"farang perverts" have always found Thailand congenial, for a number of reasons - few of which reflect favorably upon Thais.'

That's an interesting observation. I'm not sure I concur with your opinion about it reflecting badly on the culture however. It seems to me that most of us who have worked in less than self actualizing jobs for money have prostituted our bodies, minds, time or whatever so why should sex be any different? I mean from a non-Western-missionary point of view?

I like your work homeboy and it seems that you have changed your view somewhat about the extent to which farangs have been responsible for the changes to CM over the last 40 years. I don't think we matter much at all.

[CMHomeboy78]

"...and at times a pretty silk or gauze scarf cast carelessly over their bosom and one shoulder. Of late years, however, the missionaries have persuaded their female converts and the girls in their schools to wear a neat white jacket, and the custom is gradually spreading through the city and into the neighbouring villages."

Those damned missionaries!

Those 'damned missionaries' did the same everywhere they went..............Hawaii, north and south America, Philippines..............in the name of God.

They seem to have missed Pattaya, so far.

When missionaries are mentioned, the term "brainless bigot" springs to mind. So many of them are just that.

But when you look at Chiang Mai history in the mid and late 19th century you see that the American Protestant missionaries - along with the British teak wallahs - were the ones who changed things here.

They were not successful in obtaining many converts. Buddhism was too deeply ingrained in the people. But they had a considerable effect upon the lives of the Kohn Muang because they brought modern knowledge with them. Medical treatment, smallpox vaccination, and schools for young people, rich and poor.

They also brought a printing press and set up books and papers in the Lanna [Tua Muang] alphabet.

There are two sides to the coin.