Thai Commerce Minister hits back at World Bank

[gabruce]

Well when push comes to shove my money is on the world bank.

He said Thai rice is still in great demand in many countries and that the Thai government signed a memorandum of understanding with China last week to sell 1.2 million tonnes of rice.

The agreement will definitely be signed this month, he said.

As I recall this M.O.U. was originally mentioned some three weeks or so back and the matter was to be finalised then.

one wonders just how any of the statement being made by the commerce minister can be or could be considered as true facts as opposed to outright lies?

The Bank of Agriculture and Agricultural Cooperatives (BAAC) said earlier that a circulating fund of Bt230 billion would be allocated for rice purchase in the new harvest.

“I don’t know where the BAAC got this information. Please rely on data and information of the Commerce Ministry and Finance Ministry,” he said.

So according to the above statement there would seem to be no co-operation twixt the B.A.A.C. and the Commerce Ministry, considering that the B.A.A.C. are the government owned bank dealing with the financial aspect of the rice pledging scam scheme I feel they are indeed a more reliable source ( for what it is worth as a government controlled bank) than the Commerce Ministry.

It may well be a good idea for Mr Niwatthamrong to remind his puppet master and possibly his staff and his good self too that ''liars need good memories."

All one see's in the comments made Mr Niwatthamrong are that it is a classic case of someone being put into a corner who is being asked to explain matters but who can only reply by clutching at rice straws and blustering distorted replies to attempt to take the pressure off of himself and his puppet masters.

Liar liar, pants on fire.

My guess is that they are both telling the truth. They just forgot to mention that between the Commerce budget and the bank, 40 billion baht is scheduled to stick in some pocket or other. Totally logical.

[HUAHIN62]

Until the rice scheme is not stopped and until the last ton of rice is sold, no one can calculate the loss incurred by the scheme. There could be a natural disaster tomorrow that push up rice prices or there could be a bumper crop that drop prices. So this time neither government or the WB are correct.

[Thai at Heart]

Sorry for not being good at Google, but does anyone have a copy of the World Bank comments?

They are out there somewhere, and if the Commerce Ministry hadn't said anything, no one would have noticed at all.

[Thai at Heart]

Until the rice scheme is not stopped and until the last ton of rice is sold, no one can calculate the loss incurred by the scheme. There could be a natural disaster tomorrow that push up rice prices or there could be a bumper crop that drop prices. So this time neither government or the WB are correct.

Yeah. Great. Would you lend money to someone, who's hope of balancing the books relied on a global disaster?

[khaowong1]

I'm sure the people at the World Bank are burning the midnight oil, going back over their figures because this Minister says their wrong.

[Baerboxer]

EXCUSE ME.... But there is a LOSS estimated and allowable of 200 BILLION BAHT!!!! A LOSS! Regardless of the figure 80 billion, 200 billion or 270 billion. MY GOD and these people run a country? So this is a way of SELLING A COMMODITY TO HELP THE COUNTRY by creating ASTRONOMICAL LOSSES? And they want to borrow even more?

And to the fools who vote for a few baht... you get what you pay for ... or in this case what they buy you for

Please keep up Marcusd. The PM/DM has explained that the benefits to the country in non monetary terms far outweigh any small losses. She explained its not all about financial measurements and accounting. And besides, she knows some people who have benefited significantly from this innovative and genius scheme.

The Commerce and Finance Ministers and their teams always seem to offer different sets of figures - creating the illusion that they make them up as they go. Surely that must be wrong given their astute grasp of financial budgeting and controls. Must be just poor reporting by non-financial journalists.

World Bank - what do they know about Thailand and rice farming anyway? Bunch of silly farangs.

Give it another few months and the figures will show a break even or maybe a small profit. They keep getting better so why not? Good for confidence and all that when there's massive flooding. the economy is in recession and the cost of living is sky rocketing.

Good to see KY's handpicked team of best for the job are on the ball while she's away, again.

[HUAHIN62]

Until the rice scheme is not stopped and until the last ton of rice is sold, no one can calculate the loss incurred by the scheme. There could be a natural disaster tomorrow that push up rice prices or there could be a bumper crop that drop prices. So this time neither government or the WB are correct.

Yeah. Great. Would you lend money to someone, who's hope of balancing the books relied on a global disaster?

Think you should read my post the loss could be larger or smaller depending on events thars not controlled by either party. By the way Thailand dont borrow money from the WB.

[Thai at Heart]

Until the rice scheme is not stopped and until the last ton of rice is sold, no one can calculate the loss incurred by the scheme. There could be a natural disaster tomorrow that push up rice prices or there could be a bumper crop that drop prices. So this time neither government or the WB are correct.

Yeah. Great. Would you lend money to someone, who's hope of balancing the books relied on a global disaster?

Think you should read my post the loss could be larger or smaller depending on events thars not controlled by either party. By the way Thailand dont borrow money from the WB.

Admitting that you can't value a product until you sell it is nonsense. Its called conservative accounting and has been around for 100s of years.

[marell]

The World Bank obviously doesn't understand. They'll probably even question the 50 billion Baht (or thereabouts) worth of pledged rice that will be suddenly and unavoidably be washed away by the flooding. What do they know?

Edited October 9, 2013 by marell

[Jack007]

Thailand jokes

The worldbank see the problem, but in Thailand they see nothing.

They are always optimistic and see all positive and wave away all bad figures and thinking.

We all know that the rice-subsidy is too expensive and that Thailand loose his position on the world market.

They don't know exactly what they lose and there is no rice missing.

I believe there is going a lot of rice going out by the backdoor (no billing)

Than a lot of the billions goes to the pockets of the Thai officers (corruption)

But they act like the 3 monkeys.

Don't talk

Don't see

Don't hear

The water management is the next project that the money let flow in their pockets.

Good luck, but in my eyes it is a BIG hole in their money system

[Baerboxer]

Wish they had something like if you pay taxes you can vote if not tough luck. Its so sad for the people paying taxes seeing it all spend like this.

Now THAT is a good idea. It would sure shift the vote in this country. I would like to see it in the USA too, although, not sure it would make a difference there.

Seems only fair as they are the ones paying for it all. Right now their money is used to buy poor votes so more of their money can be stolen. Does not sound fair to me where the ones paying have nothing to say in it and their own money is used for a form of vote buying but against them. Yea I know its not a fair thing to think about but as long as it would keep the reds away I am all for it.

I feel hurt how they are raping the funds of this country and totally control it Not ever accepting their mistakes and so on. Telling lies all the time. The current voters don't care about corruption as its not their money that is being stolen. I bet the ones paying all the taxes hate that its stolen like this but because the majority (also the ones that dont pay no coincidence there) selects these criminals.

I think the trick is to make sure everyone who works pays income tax, even those with low income/salaries. Even if people only pay a few hundred baht in tax, they will suddenly start to feel that it is also their money being used/misused, and therefore they will start to care how it is used/misused. Seeing a few hundred baht of their hard earned money disappear from their pocket each month will also make them realise that the money the government spends is not coming from thin air.

You could argue that everyone pays VAT and that should have the same effect. However, most people do not really understand VAT or that the VAT is actually tax, and as the price they see in the stores already has VAT included, they do not even realise that they are paying anything but the price for the actual product. Therefore VAT has no psychological impact on most people.

Regarding voting, I do agree that people should somehow make an effort in order to be allowed to vote. However, tax may not be the right way to go, as lots of people do not pay tax, such as the elderly, unemployed etc. I suggest instead some form of simple test that everyone, even the uneducated, can pass if they are prepared to make a small effort in order to prepare for the test and thereby learn a little about the society they live in. It could contain basic general knowledge questions that everyone can learn in a day if they are prepared to read a predistributed book or listen to a predistributed cd (for those who cannot read).

If tax has to be the deciding factor, then you could differentiate, so people who do not pay tax get 1 vote, people who do pay tax get 2 etc.Those who bother to file a tax return, even if they do not have to pay any tax due to low salary, could get 2 votes as well - it still shows they care. All those who make good money but do not file tax returns, will only get 1 vote. They are cheating society anyway, so don't deserve more than 1 vote.

I do not know what would be the best system, and I do not suggest this just to get rid of the PTP, my suggestions goes for all countries, not just Thailand. The intention is to get rid of the voters who either do not know anything, or do not care about anything, as well as making sure that those who contribute to society and/or care about society are actually those who run society. If you want to be heard, you have to make an effort, one way or another, not just turn 18!

The current system where any lazy idiot over 18 can vote makes no sense to me - in any country. We might as well let monkeys and children vote too!

What a load of <deleted>. Democracy - for those who pay tax, own property or can attain some other measurement put in place. No votes for the others eh? Why not make it only elite landholding gentry, with a university degree? Or those above a certain IQ perhaps? Or members of certain families.

Democracy - just an idea, not the goal.

[Thai at Heart]

Until the rice scheme is not stopped and until the last ton of rice is sold, no one can calculate the loss incurred by the scheme. There could be a natural disaster tomorrow that push up rice prices or there could be a bumper crop that drop prices. So this time neither government or the WB are correct.

Yeah. Great. Would you lend money to someone, who's hope of balancing the books relied on a global disaster?

Think you should read my post the loss could be larger or smaller depending on events thars not controlled by either party. By the way Thailand dont borrow money from the WB.

Um no. They don't borrow it from the World Bank. At least not yet. But the "world" does rely on analysis from independent parties such as the World Bank to work out whether they should be lending the Thai governement any money. So, sitting there, and saying when someone say that the figure is estimated to be x, and the defence is "we can't say" how much anything is worth. If you were a reponsible money lender, what would you do?

While the thai government may say, this is a social project. That can be their perogative, but that doesn't tend to wash with money lenders. They just want to see their cash back. So explaining to the world bank that the benefits to society outweigh the costs in USD, doesn't matter one jot with your bank manager, and demanding that he see things from your perspective is an interesting idea.

Edited October 9, 2013 by Thai at Heart

[siampolee]

EXCUSE ME.... But there is a LOSS estimated and allowable of 200 BILLION BAHT!!!! A LOSS! Regardless of the figure 80 billion, 200 billion or 270 billion. MY GOD and these people run a country? So this is a way of SELLING A COMMODITY TO HELP THE COUNTRY by creating ASTRONOMICAL LOSSES? And they want to borrow even more?

It may well prove to be an education as to the grand architects business acumen concerning the rice pledging scam scheme to look back at the grand architects track record in his earlier business ventures.

Indeed negative figures abound and insolvency too along with nepotism and a dose or two of corrupt practices from family members who were M.P.s at the time too who helped the grand architect to secure a compurter contract followed by a communications contract .

The rest is history all the way to the bank and a premiership politically and a premier football club too along with the already mentined nepotism and financial and tax and proxy shareholding iregularrites etc etc hence we can fully understand the financial logic surrounding the rice pledging scam scheme

[HUAHIN62]

Until the rice scheme is not stopped and until the last ton of rice is sold, no one can calculate the loss incurred by the scheme. There could be a natural disaster tomorrow that push up rice prices or there could be a bumper crop that drop prices. So this time neither government or the WB are correct.

Yeah. Great. Would you lend money to someone, who's hope of balancing the books relied on a global disaster?

Think you should read my post the loss could be larger or smaller depending on events thars not controlled by either party. By the way Thailand dont borrow money from the WB.

Um no. They don't borrow it from the World Bank. At least not yet. But the "world" does rely on analysis from independent parties such as the World Bank to work out whether they should be lending the Thai governement any money. So, sitting there, and saying when someone say that the figure is estimated to be x, and the defence is "we can't say" how much anything is worth. If you were a reponsible money lender, what would you do?

While the thai government may say, this is a social project. That can be their perogative, but that doesn't tend to wash with money lenders. They just want to see their cash back. So explaining to the world bank that the benefits to society outweigh the costs in USD, doesn't matter one jot with your bank manager, and demanding that he see things from your perspective is an interesting idea.

There is no love lost in Thailand for the WB/IMF. During the 1997 crisis they forced Thailand into economic restructuring in exchange for loans. This restructuring caused great damage to the Thai economy. After this Thailand will rather borrow money from loan sharks than from the WB/IMF. Malaysia didn't follow the IMF loan route in 1997 and out much better than Thailand. Sometimes a message us shot down not because of contents but due to who the messenger is.

[shaurene]

It was a dead duck before it came out. They cannot controller a world commodity. Where do they get these people, the same way as in Great Briton in the early times, if you are from a prominent family and go to the school for a short time. Like the top officers in the army, come out of school after couple months and they are a Captain or Major and have not got a clue about warfare. True to the First World War, out the trenches boys and charge, oh, sir they are all dead, well send the f*^*n rest of them over, numbers will win.

How can he argue against the World Bank.

[Phronesis]

Wow...thank God I am not in the market for large quantities of Thai rice.

It would be a horrific position to be in to have to chose between the lies of the World Bank and those of the current Thai government.

[Thai at Heart]

There is no love lost in Thailand for the WB/IMF. During the 1997 crisis they forced Thailand into economic restructuring in exchange for loans. This restructuring caused great damage to the Thai economy. After this Thailand will rather borrow money from loan sharks than from the WB/IMF. Malaysia didn't follow the IMF loan route in 1997 and out much better than Thailand. Sometimes a message us shot down not because of contents but due to who the messenger is.

Bla bla bla, I was there in 97 and saw it front and centre. The run on Malaysia was more to do with contagion and a massive fiscal/currency problem. So, in some ways for Malaysia to take the same step as Thailand was not the right decision. If the Thais want to give this vitriolic silly response that is up to them, but neither should they be surprised if they can't get the borrowings they want. The damage wasn't done by the loans, the damage was already done by the Thai's themselves. Maybe the medicine wasn't completely right, but still the sickness was self inflicted.

After all, "white lies" are apparently according to the Thai way of looking at it. You are wrong, I am right, now, lend me some money, is hardly convincing is it.

Edited October 9, 2013 by Thai at Heart

[robblok]

What a load of <deleted>. Democracy - for those who pay tax, own property or can attain some other measurement put in place. No votes for the others eh? Why not make it only elite landholding gentry, with a university degree? Or those above a certain IQ perhaps? Or members of certain families.

Democracy - just an idea, not the goal.

Normally I would agree with you but not in Thailand with all the vote buying and stuff. Not with how the reds are totally destroying the democracy by taking away the checks and balances. Not with the massive corruption.. here you can use all that money to buy the votes so the one paying it are captives because they are a smaller group as the ones taking the money. Not really a fair system.

[Patje]

Commerce Minister hits back at World Bank

I'm sure the world bank will be impressed

[Baloo22]

What are the chances that they will be saved in the next "pledging season" because a lot of rice is underwater and wrecked?

Will the flooding destroy enough rice so that their "pledge" will not cost them so much?

[GentlemanJim]

The PTP government keeps saying they cannot calculate losses due to the fact that they have not yet sold all their stock. Virtually every company in the world, including Thailand, has some form of stock that keeps coming in and keeps going out in a continuous circle. Yet all these companies manage to, and are required to, file a tax return stating their profit/loss each year. It is very rare that companies run completely out of stock, which seems to be what the PTP is waiting for before calculating their profit/loss.

The "trick" is to simply put a value on your existing stock based on the current market price (not some future imaginary/fantasy price), and to disregard stock that is damaged/obsolete/unsellable - a very simple task for anyone but the PTP.

Exactly! And the Government must know how much stock they have because every month they have to pay the bill for storage of rice. So at worst, whatever the monthly storage bill is divided by whatever they pay per ton for storage will miraculously bring the figure required to light, the amount of rice we currently have. With that the rest is school boy maths, and as most of the Ministers act like Children it shouldn't be a big deal.

Sorry for not being good at Google, but does anyone have a copy of the World Bank comments?

[Yunla]

This is SHOWBIZ. It is intended exclusively for audience enjoyment. You can file this piece under 'the mouse that roared' etc. plucky Thailand standing up to the nasty World Bank.

But it is showbiz. Behind the scenes, the same people who control Thaksin, also control the World Bank, IMF, UN, and they all play golf at the same golfclubs and they all go to dinner at eachothers palaces. There is no dispute at all, it is all choreographed, and the occasional bit of public showbiz fun like this story.

Why is it a bad thing that the offshore corporate government controls Thailand via the Carlyle stooge Thaksin? Their agenda is deindustrialisation, nation implosion and segmentation, desovereignisation, extermination of the middle classes, and mass-enslavement under the ironshod boots of national debt. This is historical fact globally, and the agenda is being played out slowly but steadily here in Thailand. The offshore corporate government do not want strong sovereign nations with independant powerful leaders, successful industries and low debt. All the governments installed by the international banking oligarch cartel, were governments designed to fail, to implode economies and extinguish sovereignty. Until Thailand banishes the Shinawatra cartel and their backers, this nation will only race to the bottom like so many other nations have in the last hundred years.

Edited October 9, 2013 by Yunla

[fab4]

This is SHOWBIZ. It is intended exclusively for audience enjoyment. You can file this piece under 'the mouse that roared' etc. plucky Thailand standing up to the nasty World Bank.

But it is showbiz. Behind the scenes, the same people who control Thaksin, also control the World Bank, IMF, UN, and they all play golf at the same golfclubs and they all go to dinner at eachothers palaces. There is no dispute at all, it is all choreographed, and the occasional bit of public showbiz fun like this story.

Why is it a bad thing that the offshore corporate government controls Thailand via the Carlyle stooge Thaksin? Their agenda is deindustrialisation, nation implosion and segmentation, desovereignisation, extermination of the middle classes, and mass-enslavement under the ironshod boots of national debt. This is historical fact globally, and the agenda is being played out slowly but steadily here in Thailand. The offshore corporate government do not want strong sovereign nations with independant powerful leaders, successful industries and low debt. All the governments installed by the international banking oligarch cartel, were governments designed to fail, to implode economies and extinguish sovereignty. Until Thailand banishes the Shinawatra cartel and their backers, this nation will only race to the bottom like so many other nations have in the last hundred years.

Their agenda is deindustrialisation, nation implosion and segmentation, desovereignisation, extermination of the middle classes, and mass-enslavement under the ironshod boots of national debt.

OK, then what happens? Whats the point?

[Yunla]

Their agenda is deindustrialisation, nation implosion and segmentation, desovereignisation, extermination of the middle classes, and mass-enslavement under the ironshod boots of national debt.

OK, then what happens? Whats the point?

The point is that soon enough there'll be 10 billion people on this mudball & they have to be controlled. If they are not controlled then the ruling global elite and their offspring will lose all their privileges. Its a paranoid philosophy of population control by reducing former multi-class sovereign nations to entirely peasant-class police states, where your only right is to shut up and work. The "ultra-class" at the top of the world society do not need money, so they do not require a productive successful industrial economy anywhere on Earth. You can see examples of the IMF crippling nations economically, and the industries being shut-down and asset-stripped. This is because manufacturing economies provide real-wage and union work, and affluent middle classes. Those things are threatening to the ultra-class. This is the difference between today and a hundred years ago when they still wanted to accumulate wealth and so they allowed manufacturing economies to flourish. Now wealth is a non-subject to them, it is replaced by desire to maintain power and control in the face of volcanic population growth and growing awareness of citizen rights.

Edited October 9, 2013 by Yunla

[fab4]

Their agenda is deindustrialisation, nation implosion and segmentation, desovereignisation, extermination of the middle classes, and mass-enslavement under the ironshod boots of national debt.

OK, then what happens? Whats the point?

The point is that soon enough there'll be 10 billion people on this mudball & they have to be controlled. If they are not controlled then the ruling global elite and their offspring will lose all their privileges. Its a paranoid philosophy of population control by reducing former multi-class sovereign nations to entirely peasant-class police states, where your only right is to shut up and work. The "ultra-class" at the top of the world society do not need money, so they do not require a productive successful industrial economy anywhere on Earth. You can see examples of the IMF crippling nations economically, and the industries being shut-down and asset-stripped. This is because manufacturing economies provide real-wage and union work, and affluent middle classes. Those things are threatening to the ultra-class. This is the difference between today and a hundred years ago when they still wanted to accumulate wealth and so they allowed manufacturing economies to flourish. Now wealth is a non-subject to them, it is replaced by desire to maintain power and control in the face of volcanic population growth and growing awareness of citizen rights.

Oh, OK, if you say so.

[NeverSure]

OK, just from News articles that have been posted in this part of the forum over the past year, let's run some numbers.

1. There was the article that the government owned BAAC (Ag bank) had set up a 500 billion baht line of credit - a revolving fund - for the rice scheme. Revolving funds are a line of credit that is to be used, paid back, used again, etc.

2. Then there was an article where the government said that the 500 wouldn't be enough and that they had to increase the amout by 200 bil to 700 billion baht.

3. Then there was the article that said that the government had taken 1/2 of the BAAC's capital which was another 100 bil, leaving the BAAC with only 100 billion baht of its own capital. NOW a bank's capital is the extent of losses it can take and cover. When it's out of it's own capital, if it takes more losses it is bankrupt. Or it starts spending it's depositors money to pay bills, ala some of the PIIGS.

4. So far, that's a total of 800 billion baht in expenditures for the rice scheme, with this season still to go.

5. Then there was the article that there would be another 200+ bil needed to cover this season's purchases.

6. Now we are over 1 trillion baht in spending for rice at prices way above market value.

7. If the BAAC had to book the rice (the collateral) at market value instead of what the government paid for it, it would be bankrupt.

8. Despite all of the rhetoric, there is no proof that any significant amount of the rice has been sold.

9. We all know that Thais will sit on something before they will take a loss. Part of it is cultural, but part of it is that if all of the rice was sold at market value, the BAAC (the government) would take huge losses. The losses would have to be admitted because the collateral would all be gone but it wouldn't come close to paying off the loans. THIS IS THE REASON THE GOVERNMENT WON'T SELL RICE AT MARKET VALUE, AND MOVE IT OUT.

10. No one knows how much of the rice that the government paid for is actually still warehoused. It may have rotted or been stolen. There is no way to account for those losses. No one knows how much rice is actually there, ready to sell.

11 The older the rice gets, the less it's worth.

Conclusion: The Thai government is broke and full of shit. This 1 trillion baht is 1/2 what they are trying to borrow for the high speed rail, but it would be payable over 50 years. While that is idiotic, this rice liability at the bank is due now.

Now, the government isn't going to come clean. The BAAC will continue to pretend it is solvent. So will other Thai owned banks. It is a house of cards.

Just don't get caught in it.

Edited October 9, 2013 by NeverSure

[monkeycountry]

I think the trick is to make sure everyone who works pays income tax, even those with low income/salaries. Even if people only pay a few hundred baht in tax, they will suddenly start to feel that it is also their money being used/misused, and therefore they will start to care how it is used/misused. Seeing a few hundred baht of their hard earned money disappear from their pocket each month will also make them realise that the money the government spends is not coming from thin air.

You could argue that everyone pays VAT and that should have the same effect. However, most people do not really understand VAT or that the VAT is actually tax, and as the price they see in the stores already has VAT included, they do not even realise that they are paying anything but the price for the actual product. Therefore VAT has no psychological impact on most people.

Regarding voting, I do agree that people should somehow make an effort in order to be allowed to vote. However, tax may not be the right way to go, as lots of people do not pay tax, such as the elderly, unemployed etc. I suggest instead some form of simple test that everyone, even the uneducated, can pass if they are prepared to make a small effort in order to prepare for the test and thereby learn a little about the society they live in. It could contain basic general knowledge questions that everyone can learn in a day if they are prepared to read a predistributed book or listen to a predistributed cd (for those who cannot read).

If tax has to be the deciding factor, then you could differentiate, so people who do not pay tax get 1 vote, people who do pay tax get 2 etc.Those who bother to file a tax return, even if they do not have to pay any tax due to low salary, could get 2 votes as well - it still shows they care. All those who make good money but do not file tax returns, will only get 1 vote. They are cheating society anyway, so don't deserve more than 1 vote.

I do not know what would be the best system, and I do not suggest this just to get rid of the PTP, my suggestions goes for all countries, not just Thailand. The intention is to get rid of the voters who either do not know anything, or do not care about anything, as well as making sure that those who contribute to society and/or care about society are actually those who run society. If you want to be heard, you have to make an effort, one way or another, not just turn 18!

The current system where any lazy idiot over 18 can vote makes no sense to me - in any country. We might as well let monkeys and children vote too!

What a load of <deleted>. Democracy - for those who pay tax, own property or can attain some other measurement put in place. No votes for the others eh? Why not make it only elite landholding gentry, with a university degree? Or those above a certain IQ perhaps? Or members of certain families.

Democracy - just an idea, not the goal.

I take it you read my admittedly rather long post very fast and skipped all the details, so I won't bother starting an argument

[Habs]

LOL

[kurnell]

You mean you believe the World Bank over the Pheu Thai commerce minister?

That would be an interesting ABAC poll..who do you believe, your own government or the World Bank?

[slapout]

The Commerce ministry employees seem somewhat confused as they cannot seem to agree on figures thrown out to the public. Then you see statements made by Finance ministry officials, current and former bank officials and it becomes a real question of who to believe. The Finance and Commerce officials have been caught out in so many porkies, they have dropped into the minus_ numbers when a scale of 1 to 10 is used as a ruler.

The latest revelations include 7 billion baht worth of rice donated by Commerce to foreign and Thai concerns.

330 billion has been spent on 2012/13 for 22 million ton of rice

Rice farmers have received only 40% of total expendature for rice scheme

Loss for rice scheme will be 205 to 400 billion per year depending on who is speaking (excxept Commerce)

More money is being requested by Commerce as the budet for 2013/14 will not be adequate

Stored rice estimates range from 10 million tons to 28 million tons, but Commerce found 9 billion worth of rice, but the weight of find seems to be unknown or unimportant.

Exports are forecast to be 10, 5 million ton this year (back to no. 1) in the world by, you guessed it Commerce ministry.