Another tragic expat suicide

[Berkshire]

Not all people crave company. They may find others tedious and boring. If people live alone, it usually is a choice.

This may be a bit like go and have a cuppa with the old codger down the road as you may be the only person they speak to all week.

My mam has been on her own for 14 years now, and the more time I spend with her, the more I realise just what loneliness is. It must be a terrible way to feel.

May I suggest that if anyone has a neighbour who is alone, invite them for a couple of beers or a cup of coffee. Even if they are a pain or talk rubbish, just for an hour or so. It may save their life.

"Not all people crave company. They may find others tedious and boring. If people live alone, it usually is a choice."

Amen. And quite often it's the unavoidable company/intrusion/demands/expectations/busy-bodiness of "others" that drives one to contemplate suicide, not the absence of them. You don't need to be alone to feel lonely and being alone is not synonymous with loneliness.

You're right. The reasons people commit suicide are as varied as human beings on this planet. Things that may drive one to take their own life may not bother another in the very least. People couldn't understand why Kurt Cobain took his own life at 27. The guy was on the verge of superstardom and megawealth, yet... We simply can't put ourselves in their shoes because we're not all built the same way.

Suicide would bother me if it was someone close to me. Then I'd feel like maybe, just maybe, there was something I could have done about it. But if it was someone I didn't know...sure, pass out the fake condolences. But why would someone who intentionally took their own life deserve as much sympathy as someone who had it taken away without their consent? There are people being murdered every day. Or dying in car accidents. Or disease. Or starvation. Or even natural causes. I'd rather save my sympathies for them. My genuine sympathies, that is.

[GuestHouse]

You're right. The reasons people commit suicide are as varied as human beings on this planet. Things that may drive one to take their own life may not bother another in the very least. People couldn't understand why Kurt Cobain took his own life at 27. The guy was on the verge of superstardom and megawealth, yet... We simply can't put ourselves in their shoes because we're not all built the same way.

Suicide would bother me if it was someone close to me. Then I'd feel like maybe, just maybe, there was something I could have done about it. But if it was someone I didn't know...sure, pass out the fake condolences. But why would someone who intentionally took their own life deserve as much sympathy as someone who had it taken away without their consent? There are people being murdered every day. Or dying in car accidents. Or disease. Or starvation. Or even natural causes. I'd rather save my sympathies for them. My genuine sympathies, that is.

Like I say, there is a gap in understanding which I suggest we all of us would be wise to fill.

And you've provided an interesting application of a moral judgement too.

[Scott]

The thread has been cleaned up a little. From the content of the deleted posts, I can see why there is such a high suicide rate in Thailand.

Stay on topic. If you have nothing positive to contribute, then don't post. For many, however, I would suggest that you read the thread carefully.

[Berkshire]

You're right. The reasons people commit suicide are as varied as human beings on this planet. Things that may drive one to take their own life may not bother another in the very least. People couldn't understand why Kurt Cobain took his own life at 27. The guy was on the verge of superstardom and megawealth, yet... We simply can't put ourselves in their shoes because we're not all built the same way.

Suicide would bother me if it was someone close to me. Then I'd feel like maybe, just maybe, there was something I could have done about it. But if it was someone I didn't know...sure, pass out the fake condolences. But why would someone who intentionally took their own life deserve as much sympathy as someone who had it taken away without their consent? There are people being murdered every day. Or dying in car accidents. Or disease. Or starvation. Or even natural causes. I'd rather save my sympathies for them. My genuine sympathies, that is.

Like I say, there is a gap in understanding which I suggest we all of us would be wise to fill.

And you've provided an interesting application of a moral judgement too.

I'm certainly not trying to be callous or insensitive. In fact, if someone here knew the deceased or was related, I'd probably feel pretty bad making those comments. But it wasn't directed towards this particular individual, but people in general who decide to take their own life. Far be it for me to judge because every circumstance is different. But don't you find it a bit disingenuous for people who don't know the individual (or anything about the individual) to feel any sort of genuine sadness? For example, when Malala Yousafzai was shot, I was both saddened and angered. I didn't know her, but I knew what she was about. This particular individual, I know nothing about him.

[slipperylobster]

All positive ideas here should be welcome. Sorry for the deceased, but at least a discussion on issues related to suicide is a positive step. The more information that people have relating to spotting somebody that might be in such circumstances (leading to a suicide) the better equipped they will be to offer suggestions. Thailand does have some unique challenges...and I think most of us know that are luck could turn on us quickly. People need to know that you can recover from seemingly desperate situations. Isolation from family, loss of a relationship, financial distress, alcoholism...all can be dealt with. No reason to lose the war over the loss of one battle. Been there...etc.

[Berkshire]

All positive ideas here should be welcome. Sorry for the deceased, but at least a discussion on issues related to suicide is a positive step. The more information that people have relating to spotting somebody that might be in such circumstances (leading to a suicide) the better equipped they will be to offer suggestions. Thailand does have some unique challenges...and I think most of us know that are luck could turn on us quickly. People need to know that you can recover from seemingly desperate situations. Isolation from family, loss of a relationship, financial distress, alcoholism...all can be dealt with. No reason to lose the war over the loss of one battle. Been there...etc.

True. I suppose that if someone knew someone who has committed suicide in Thailand, perhaps that person could think back about how that person was before he took his own life. How did he behave? What did he talk about? Was it relationship difficulty or finances? Emotional make-up? Any warning signs at all? A loner? Friends and family or cut all ties? Etc. And a profile can be developed from that.

[MacChine]

I really doubt suicide has anything to do with circumstances. It is a chemical imbalance that overwhelms nature's will to survive.

True, Thai expats may be more at risk, (and alcohol is a HUGE factor in suicide too, ) but this may be more attributable to lack of any social support.

If anyone is feeling mildly suicidal, and has such thoughts chronically, I would recommend St John's Wort, aka Hyperiforte. It works so well Germany has categorized this gentle herb as a prescription drug

Not all people crave company. They may find others tedious and boring. If people live alone, it usually is a choice.

This may be a bit like go and have a cuppa with the old codger down the road as you may be the only person they speak to all week.

My mam has been on her own for 14 years now, and the more time I spend with her, the more I realise just what loneliness is. It must be a terrible way to feel.

May I suggest that if anyone has a neighbour who is alone, invite them for a couple of beers or a cup of coffee. Even if they are a pain or talk rubbish, just for an hour or so. It may save their life.

"Not all people crave company. They may find others tedious and boring. If people live alone, it usually is a choice."

Amen. And quite often it's the unavoidable company/intrusion/demands/expectations/busy-bodiness of "others" that drives one to contemplate suicide, not the absence of them. You don't need to be alone to feel lonely and being alone is not synonymous with loneliness.

You're right. The reasons people commit suicide are as varied as human beings on this planet. Things that may drive one to take their own life may not bother another in the very least. People couldn't understand why Kurt Cobain took his own life at 27. The guy was on the verge of superstardom and megawealth, yet... We simply can't put ourselves in their shoes because we're not all built the same way.

Suicide would bother me if it was someone close to me. Then I'd feel like maybe, just maybe, there was something I could have done about it. But if it was someone I didn't know...sure, pass out the fake condolences. But why would someone who intentionally took their own life deserve as much sympathy as someone who had it taken away without their consent? There are people being murdered every day. Or dying in car accidents. Or disease. Or starvation. Or even natural causes. I'd rather save my sympathies for them. My genuine sympathies, that is.

[fish fingers]

had one deep depression last year after some relationship stuff which I wasnt prepared for - some important things to avoid the dream going sour

have enough money and a good sensible plan long term

don't tell anyone your money status or business unless you completely trust them

Don't put money into ANY business unless you really know what you are doing, esp if you just met the person(how many stories)

stay away from gossipy people (difficult in thailand), things get around, usually not the truth

if you want a long term relationship with a girl

make sure she is not in a complicated situation ie she can be openly ur GF

not too much baggage (you will find things out later which might be hard to swallow)

preferably in a good job and not a bar girl

that her family are supportive of the relationship and not expecting money every month

importantly make sure YOU are committed, not a dirty dog and sleep with her mates

Don't open a bar unless u know what u are doing

Don't become an alcoholic

don't do class A drugs under any circumstances

what else..

Edited October 16, 2013 by fish fingers

[notbkk]

Anyone who has or is suffering in anyway to the degree of contemplating suicide, is not in a position to ask for help nor are they likely to get on a bus to go to get professional help. If they have reached that point it is unlikely they can focus on anything other than the way out.

Such ideas and suggestions would already be too late, they need help BEFORE they reach that point. Who knows for them it may be the last resort and seem quite logical and the only way to relieve what seems to be the inevitable, whether that it from lack of money, health problem, lost loved one, who knows, could be anything, each is very personal circumstances to that individual. No one can possibly "know" how they feel.

The best help is to catch it early on, talk to them if you know them, if you notice a change in mood or absence from uaual activity, take a momemt to actually give a sh* t about people you consider as friends or aquaintances.The signs will be there if you care enough to look and listen.

I agree with CharlieH: I was told by a psychiatrist many years ago that when someone once mentions taking his/her own life, it is not a matter IF, but rather WHEN he/she will do it, unless they get professional help soon.

I have had two friends and a few acquaintances committing suicide in my 56 years and one of them, an ex, did it in front of me. He told me during the first year that we met, that one day he will kill himself, as he didn't want to get old. He did it in 2004 at the age of 52. We just don't know what people are going through. He was well liked and a very cheerful person, no financial or health problems.

Well, I find myself in the same boat now. I moved to Thailand three years ago for good with nothing in my name but a few thousand baht in the bank and a suitcase full of clothes. I was lucky enough to get a good job which I still have and am very happy in. I live a comfortable life with no debt, a few baht to spare every month, good health insurance free from my employer, but I know that if I'm lucky, I might be able to hang onto this job (or any other) for only another 5 years or so. What then? Become another begging farang? Go back to my country? Never! I don't see that I have any other options.

I been contemplating suicide, one fine day, for the last 4 years. Yes, I have been on anti-depressants for 3 years and are very content with life at the moment. No, I don't have any family or friends that could help or support me when the time comes. So you see, I can very well see what these people are going through when they make that decision. I am not scared at all, the only worry I have is HOW to do it. I wouldn't want to inconvenience other people or cause myself a lot of pain. I've been thinking about the story of Thai silk artist and creator (for want of a better description) Jim Thompson who left his home in Bangkok on a 'holiday' to some remote Southeast Asian island and just disappeared, never to be seen or heard from again. It is widely believed that he committed suicide by drowning himself in the ocean.

[kevvy]

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

If you ever get to the stage you are thinking about please contact me . I will be there for you life is too precious you will be surprised how many would want to help you

[notbkk]

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

If you ever get to the stage you are thinking about please contact me . I will be there for you life is too precious you will be surprised how many would want to help you[/quote

Thank you, you're a good person! Although I didn't post this reply for help, I really appreciate your kindness. Rather, I hope there are other people that could find this helpful and seek help before they get to this stage...

[kevvy]

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

As i said feel free to contact if you need to . I am sure others will be there for you too.

[Dr Robert]

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

As i said feel free to contact if you need to . I am sure others will be there for you too.

good onya Kevvy, add me to the list of contacts for those who need help. Sometimes chaps just need to spill their guts over a beer, other times it means a bit more intervention, but someone needs to stand up and offer some tangible help.

You're a good man, love your work

[CharlieH]

I wouldnt and can never pretend to know how someone/ you feels or has been through, I don t have answers nor miraculous remedies, what I can offer, is someone that will listen if you need it and not judge.

Someone who doesnt know you nor your social circle nor the "players" involved in getting you to where you are at, which can only be a positive in being impartial. If you want to talk I'll listen.

[kevvy]

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

As i said feel free to contact if you need to . I am sure others will be there for you too.

good onya Kevvy, add me to the list of contacts for those who need help. Sometimes chaps just need to spill their guts over a beer, other times it means a bit more intervention, but someone needs to stand up and offer some tangible help.

You're a good man, love your work

I know where he is coming from as my mother ended her young life ... as I said "life is precious"

[kevvy]

I wouldnt and can never pretend to know how someone/ you feels or has been through, I don t have answers nor miraculous remedies, what I can offer, is someone that will listen if you need it and not judge.

Someone who doesnt know you nor your social circle nor the "players" involved in getting you to where you are at, which can only be a positive in being impartial. If you want to talk I'll listen.

You and Dr Robert are really nice people . It does not hurt to listen to people . if only more were like you two.

cheers

kevvy

[n210mp]

As, a sometimes in the past tense and occasionally in the present, I have been a potential "suicidee" I can empathise and relate to anyone who is thinking of ending his life!

The reason for this frame of mind are legion and not just related to a depressive illness or an overwhelming sense of loss and this opt for death decision can be made with a mind that is balanced and healthy

A the end of the day ( No pun intended) it is up to the individual, its their decision and their life!

Here in Pattaya we seem to have many "Suicides" some genuine some possibly not, we tend to believe that the genuine ones are either due to people losing all their money, losing the love of their lives or surviving at level where their standard of living makes their lives too onerous, usually maybe a combination of all of these reasons.

Maybe this is the case in the majority of suicides in Pattaya?

However as people get older and the onset of physical and mental changes make them more aware of their own frailty and consequently their own mortality, then a situation is beginning to develop where the thought of dying from a terminal illness or vegetating in a pitiable and poor situation is worse than the thought of orchestrating their own demise at a time that suits them!

My own thoughts on suicide with a terminal illness for instance are that when I got to a stage where it was absolutely apparent (to Myself that is) that I could not manage any more on my own then I would take a bottle of my favourite whisky, acquire a serious overdose of any barbiturate and say "Goodnight Vienna"

The point of my post of course is to say that there are times when suicide is a result of a well thought out plan to avoid a continuing life of misery and pain and not always because the person is suffering from a mental illness.

[GuestHouse]

And here we find the very best of ThaiVisa.

[benalibina]

By (re) reading this thread, i see that, eventhough anonymus, that there are really nice/emphatic/life experienced and knowledgeable people on this forum. Also that it have to be a safe place, so to speak, to post 1s own experience/feelings/thoughts which are open to vulnarabilty. Only bad, inconsiderate people lacking any empathy will make a joke of it.

I wrote on an earlier comment that love and support can prevent somebody from thinking about it and let alone do it. What is maybe evenmore important, indicated by other posters as well, is to listen but for sure NOT TO JUDGE the person seeking a listening ear. That person is already down because of seeing his/her own glass as halfempty because of, whether realistic or not, his/her own actions/choices/happenings in life which has led to this phase.

I write this because the last weeks i am truly feeling down because of my situation in life. As i am a thinker, not as clear as i like to i unfortunately realize, i am trying to solve it all myself. The hopelesness i feel sometimes lately had me ponder; for what am i going through the , partly selfinflicted, misery ? I know that it is only me who can solve things. The consequences momentarily are quite big. That saddens me. This especially as i am up against, in real life, people who dont posess the believes, morals, which i value in life. Sometimes i feel to let it go, let it all go but i cant. The reason to live would go away.

I always keep in mind that i dont want to die being a quitter. Not easy, especially if the mind is so full of negative thoughts. That why keeping as much as possible a clear mind, support, love and nonjudging people around you can overcome the negative/suicidal thoughts/feelings.

[CharlieH]

It may sound crazy, but sometimes, just talking something through, saying it out loud to someone, getting it off your chest so to speak can make a world of difference.Stop bottling it all up inside like a pressure cooker and sharing whatever it is with someone.

I'm not a religious person but the story of a man carrying a heavy burden and how sharing that burden can make things easier, like the saying "a problem shared is a problem halved".

It seems this thread has struck a chord with many, as you go through life we all pick up "baggage" anyone can and has probably made wrong choices, or has regrets about past events , but its good from time to time to put that baggage down, stop struggling with it, let someone else share that load, whoever it might be, and often someone who doesnt know you is better, thats why therapists etc work so well, because they dont know you or your circumstances and can be impartial non judgemental and whatever you reveal cant and wont damage any friendships or relationships you have, its SAFE.

Many reading this thread are here in Thailand, there is a good chance you are an older person, may have lost touch with old friends or family members, or chosen to distance yourself from them for whatever reason, may have come here to escape from mistakes and past decisions or events and to "start a new life" but the one thing you can never escape from is yourself, your thoughts, your emotions. Sure you can push it away, dismiss it, not think about it, but that wont work long term it will come back if you dont let it out. It will fester like any wound and can cause serious problems further down the road.

I woukd urge anyone who feels that burden to seek someone, and let it go, just for an hour or whatever, just talk it out, say it out loud, admit whats really on your mind, you will feel so much better for releasing whatever is eating at you.

Edited October 19, 2013 by CharlieH

[kevvy]

By (re) reading this thread, i see that, eventhough anonymus, that there are really nice/emphatic/life experienced and knowledgeable people on this forum. Also that it have to be a safe place, so to speak, to post 1s own experience/feelings/thoughts which are open to vulnarabilty. Only bad, inconsiderate people lacking any empathy will make a joke of it.

I wrote on an earlier comment that love and support can prevent somebody from thinking about it and let alone do it. What is maybe evenmore important, indicated by other posters as well, is to listen but for sure NOT TO JUDGE the person seeking a listening ear. That person is already down because of seeing his/her own glass as halfempty because of, whether realistic or not, his/her own actions/choices/happenings in life which has led to this phase.

I write this because the last weeks i am truly feeling down because of my situation in life. As i am a thinker, not as clear as i like to i unfortunately realize, i am trying to solve it all myself. The hopelesness i feel sometimes lately had me ponder; for what am i going through the , partly selfinflicted, misery ? I know that it is only me who can solve things. The consequences momentarily are quite big. That saddens me. This especially as i am up against, in real life, people who dont posess the believes, morals, which i value in life. Sometimes i feel to let it go, let it all go but i cant. The reason to live would go away.

I always keep in mind that i dont want to die being a quitter. Not easy, especially if the mind is so full of negative thoughts. That why keeping as much as possible a clear mind, support, love and nonjudging people around you can overcome the negative/suicidal thoughts/feelings.

You can solve things too by knowing you have friends here on TV . As i said to if you need help i am here for you you are a good man

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[ghworker2010]

By (re) reading this thread, i see that, eventhough anonymus, that there are really nice/emphatic/life experienced and knowledgeable people on this forum. Also that it have to be a safe place, so to speak, to post 1s own experience/feelings/thoughts which are open to vulnarabilty. Only bad, inconsiderate people lacking any empathy will make a joke of it.

I wrote on an earlier comment that love and support can prevent somebody from thinking about it and let alone do it. What is maybe evenmore important, indicated by other posters as well, is to listen but for sure NOT TO JUDGE the person seeking a listening ear. That person is already down because of seeing his/her own glass as halfempty because of, whether realistic or not, his/her own actions/choices/happenings in life which has led to this phase.

I write this because the last weeks i am truly feeling down because of my situation in life. As i am a thinker, not as clear as i like to i unfortunately realize, i am trying to solve it all myself. The hopelesness i feel sometimes lately had me ponder; for what am i going through the , partly selfinflicted, misery ? I know that it is only me who can solve things. The consequences momentarily are quite big. That saddens me. This especially as i am up against, in real life, people who dont posess the believes, morals, which i value in life. Sometimes i feel to let it go, let it all go but i cant. The reason to live would go away.

I always keep in mind that i dont want to die being a quitter. Not easy, especially if the mind is so full of negative thoughts. That why keeping as much as possible a clear mind, support, love and nonjudging people around you can overcome the negative/suicidal thoughts/feelings.

im the OP who wrote this thread. Benalibina what you need to know is that you do dont have to figure it all out now, you just have to admit that you cant.

please send me a PM if you ever want to chat with you issues in full confidence

cheers

[ghworker2010]

By (re) reading this thread, i see that, eventhough anonymus, that there are really nice/emphatic/life experienced and knowledgeable people on this forum. Also that it have to be a safe place, so to speak, to post 1s own experience/feelings/thoughts which are open to vulnarabilty. Only bad, inconsiderate people lacking any empathy will make a joke of it.

I wrote on an earlier comment that love and support can prevent somebody from thinking about it and let alone do it. What is maybe evenmore important, indicated by other posters as well, is to listen but for sure NOT TO JUDGE the person seeking a listening ear. That person is already down because of seeing his/her own glass as halfempty because of, whether realistic or not, his/her own actions/choices/happenings in life which has led to this phase.

I write this because the last weeks i am truly feeling down because of my situation in life. As i am a thinker, not as clear as i like to i unfortunately realize, i am trying to solve it all myself. The hopelesness i feel sometimes lately had me ponder; for what am i going through the , partly selfinflicted, misery ? I know that it is only me who can solve things. The consequences momentarily are quite big. That saddens me. This especially as i am up against, in real life, people who dont posess the believes, morals, which i value in life. Sometimes i feel to let it go, let it all go but i cant. The reason to live would go away.

I always keep in mind that i dont want to die being a quitter. Not easy, especially if the mind is so full of negative thoughts. That why keeping as much as possible a clear mind, support, love and nonjudging people around you can overcome the negative/suicidal thoughts/feelings.

im the OP who wrote this thread. Benalibina what you need to know is that you do dont have to figure it all out now, you just have to admit that you cant.

please send me a PM if you ever want to chat with you issues in full confidence

cheers

[SoCalChris]

Sadly, this topic ends after only three pages......I think it is worthy of much more. This is my favorite TV discussion this year and I just recover my PW to post. Kudos to those who have offered assistance.

I even initially understood the poster that said a bargirl is the answer. Whatever neurotransmitters that need to be tweaked, so be it. Billions do it everyday with coffee and alcohol. Then there's the more significant recreational and prescription drugs. Although, the warning is this effect is only temporary and can even exacerbate an existing condition.

I (US citizen) have lived in Thailand for five years recently and now find myself in Australia. When I was first in Thailand, I exercised regularly and found it to be the best solution for depression. Upon taking a corporate high-paying job, there's now no energy for exercise. I am in a conundrum of quitting my current job and moving back to Thailand un-employed so that I can get back into it and essentially save my life.

All the best to those who are on the edge. I feel your pain.

[notbkk]

Well, I for one regret having posted here what I did before. I realise that what I have done has burdened my fellow humans beings. I have caused sadness, emotional distress and worry to people that doesn't even know me...I feel ashamed and wish and wish I could withdrew my post! My point is that if I read other people's similar posts, I feel sad for them and worry for them. Posting did make ME feel a bit better, but to the expense of others. It's better, I think, to pay for a professional to listen to one.

[advancebooking]

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/691721-pattaya-lack-of-money-drives-british-man-to-commit-suicide-using-bar-b-q-coal/?utm_source=newsletter-20131225-1446&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=news

[Pix]

Anyone who has or is suffering in anyway to the degree of contemplating suicide, is not in a position to ask for help nor are they likely to get on a bus to go to get professional help. If they have reached that point it is unlikely they can focus on anything other than the way out.

Such ideas and suggestions would already be too late, they need help BEFORE they reach that point. Who knows for them it may be the last resort and seem quite logical and the only way to relieve what seems to be the inevitable, whether that it from lack of money, health problem, lost loved one, who knows, could be anything, each is very personal circumstances to that individual. No one can possibly "know" how they feel.

The best help is to catch it early on, talk to them if you know them, if you notice a change in mood or absence from uaual activity, take a momemt to actually give a sh* t about people you consider as friends or aquaintances.The signs will be there if you care enough to look and listen.

[uptheos]

So sad that this topic has turned into what the therapeutic values of an issan Hooker is to depressed suicidal fellow human being. says a lot I guess.

Since it seems to me that a lot of farang suicides here in Thailand are caused by failed " relationships" with Isan hookers, it would stand to reason that perhaps they could also be the solution to stopping these suicides... :-)

Thai girls don't have to be hookers, there's tons of failed relationships with so called 'normal girls' some with excellent jobs. Hookers might be street smart and know how to play foreigner's for all they're worth, but just like blood pressure there are nice, intelligent silent killers out there, just waiting for Mr. Right.

[Showbags]

'f you are reading this thread and having such thoughts please refer to the ‘Health body medicine’ link which has a sub forum entitled ‘Mental health resource list’.'.....

what link where ?

[aveabeeror2]

I agree with OP.

My 2 cents worth is that if I were to be contemplating such a thing I would want to be sure that the alternative (i.e. death) is going to be any better...

To anyone who might have suicidal thoughts my advice is to get on a bus to Pattaya. Go to a bar on beach road and sit at a table with a clear view to the ocean. Order a beer for yourself and your new bar girl (friend) and have her stroke your leg. If this doesn't raise your self esteem, I don't know what will.

So having a over the hill prostitute who is only touching you in hopes of getting a payday will RAISE ones self-esteem.

You cant be seerious?

If its pros who are over the hill turns you on oogster, go for it.