Four Children Electrocuted In Chiang Mai

[elkangorito]

Interesting that the shop owner was charged (no pun intended, right?) unless he did the electrical work himself. Try asking an electrician for grounding in LOS, and you never know what you'll get.

I couldn't agree more. I don't see how the shop owner can be charged with anything unless he purposely altered the electrical system to cause such an incident, which I don't think he would or could do, unless he is a lot smarter than Thai electricians . If anyone is culpable, it is the Thai government for being lax in enforcing appropriate 'wiring rules' & ensuring appropriate trade education.

If the Thai electricians know almost nothing about electrical safety, then how can a 'shop owner' know more than the electricians?

[Considered Opinion]

Very sad indeed. Think this is the bit some posters have failed to read. Sounds to me like when the ground is wet & they are welding, it is making the (presumably metal) bridge live.

If the kids have touched the bridge AND ground or water at the same time, that would surely fry them. But all 4 at once is still a mystery?

I'm 47 & have wanted children for the past 17 years, i can't imagine what it must be like to lose a child of this (or any) age.

It is a monstrous pain to lose a child, especially at the hands of others.

[Martin]

We have had several building jobs done, over the years, as we have progressively enlarged/extended/renewed our house in a village in Isaan.

Each time, the electrician contractor has properly included an earth-leakage-circuit-breaker (ELCB) in his list of materials for my wife to buy for him to do the job, and he has installed it correctly. (The American for ELCB is GFI (ground fault interruptor).)

This could be because my wife always chooses the building team and sub-contractors very carefully.

When looking for who to give the contract to, she weeds out any 'cowboys' by chatting to them about their past.

Mostly we get men (and, sometimes, their wives, too) who have spent many years doing high-quality work in the building of palaces and hotels in the Gulf, or in Bangkok.

Even then, she keeps a close eye on the standard of their work.

After they have been told, a few times, to slow down and do it even better, they get the message.

I thought at first that they might be resistant to that (as it makes them spend more hours/days on the job), but they seem pleased to be able to show their workmanship at its best.

(She does include an excellent lunch, and the occasional drop of Lao Khao at 'home time', in the deal. I think she knows them to be more concerned about it being a happy job than getting it done quickly.)

When I first came, I wanted to do a little electrical installation and wondered if I could get an ELCB here.

In the electrical-installation-supplies shop in Udon, I started to draw a picture of what I wanted, but the moment that I wrote 'ELCB', the assistant beckoned me to a whole shelfful to choose the rating that I wanted. I was impressed.

Like in any other country, there is a need to get the 'cowboys' here up to the standard of the best.

I can remember in Canada, USA and UK, when "Grounding" and "Urffing", was a bit of a mystery.

Even the Technical College textbooks were weak on it, and the University graduates learnt nothing about it. But Health and Safety is taught better now.

Thinking about this tragic accident, I had come to the conclusion that it must have been caused by a fault occurring on the primary-side wiring, such as a broken neutral, where the supply transformer (not the welding transformer) is on the other side of the klong.

When this sort of thing happened in Britain's power stations (and some may remember the four electricians 'fried' in a precipitator at Eggborough), the Safety Engineers used to get the Coroner's Report circulated to them.

I hope the young engineers here get trained similarly, but I can't find out as I don't speak or read Thai.

[skippybangkok]

Hold on..... i feel a welling of Electrical Engineering course from almost 20 years back welling to the surface......

As on guy pointed out, it dont matter if its got a capacity of 1000 amps, if the voltage is only 10 v or 30 v, there amount of Amps going through the body will be dependant on the resistance of the body, and the voltage applied. Stick 2 fingers on a 9v battery, dont feel nothing, now try your tongue ( I asume no legal liability if you do the latter ).

Like the bird on the power line, if they were indeed swimming, they would be of the same charge as the water ( if that is possible - since the water is earthed, it would presumably be no charge ).

Welders work in pretty shitty environments with water / sludge around, and I remember being zapped a few times when welding. I think thats why they keep the voltage low incase get zapped.

Gotta agreed with the other OP, there has to be more to this story.

[elkangorito]

I don't think that will be a difficult case to solve. Nor is it all that important to find out the exact reasons for such a tragedy.

In Thailand, Domestic Wiring is sub-standard. Correction...WOEFUL!!! I have seen a multitude of installations ranging from residential premises to very large factories that do not employ a proper earthing system complete with an MEN link. This is a absolute recipe for disaster.

I'm sure even a cursory investigation of the shop in question, will reveal a lack of or non-existant earthing system & certainly a non-existant MEN link. And of course, even if the installation is wired correctly, many appliances sold in Thailand do not come with an earth wire as part of their power leads. This earth has to be added by the purchaser & therefore is usually not done. Thus appliances that require earthing, remain potential death traps.

To reiterate what has been said in previous posts, an MEN link plus an appropriate earthing system is CRUCIAL for personal safety. ELCB's & the like are secondary defense systems & are not always used correctly. Nor are they considered reliable. Do not put your life TOTALLY in the hands of such devices.

Until the Thai government decides to get serious about electrical safety, we will continue to see such tragedies.

Is your home wired safely? See this link to find out.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=67644&hl=

[Scott]

My deepest sympathies to the families and those personally affected by this tragedy.

I can't quite get my head around how this could of happened in the way described. Is there a possibility that it was something else--such as lightening?

I do hope they properly investigate this and that whatever lessons there are to be learned, are learned and applied to prevent this in the future.

[socalbro]

Sad indeed, not much else to say here!

My 8mth old son tries to climb off the balcony (@$th floor) and bite into the electric cords whan he is not trying to stop the fan blades with his fingers...

So I know how hard it is to keep kids safe and charging the shop owner with their death will not bring them back or make anyone feel any better about it.

Will it change the slack-ass ways the people here do things??? NO!

In fact there is such a low regard for human life that I feel lucky when a car slows down to let me cross in the crosswalk. Driving is a game and all the "adults" in this country for some reason become little babies in a cartoon race when they get behind the wheel of their cars and have the window shading blocking out their identity. Can't lose face if you can't see the face right???

After a nice bribe is paid the current will resume in the puddle for the next bathers to fry in, if the bribe costs less than fixing the problem of course.

[Martin]

From what has been reported here, it seems likely that the kids were not actually in the klong swimming, but at the edge, when they got electrocuted.

If one gripped part of the bridge and got electrocuted, the natural response of the others would be to go to him/her, and so get electrocuted too.

It is easier said than done, but, in cases of electrocution, "rescuers" must hold on to one thought: "Whatever I do, I must not become another victim".

We were taught to look for some non-conductor (dry cloth or rope is often the most easily available) and drag the victim clear without touching them. Then resuscitate.

It is not only in electrocution cases that the thought "Don't make it worse" must prevail.

There was a a case some years ago of a man who collapsed in a culvert due to a build-up of a pocket of carbon dioxide. When a properly-thinking man got the Breathing Apparatus equipment on and went into the culvert, he had to drag out three unconscious 'rescuers' before he could get to the victim. The third one he dragged out was the site Safety Officer!!

[tomchaam]

Sad sad sad sad . And just yesterday I was worried about golfers getting hit by lightning but who were determined to continue on in pouring rain ... and visible lightning.

[...Ken]

Whether it is urban folklore or not...........

There was the story going around Chiengmai about the person who was electrocuted in a telephone booth in a rainstorm. It seems that when the customer (standing in a puddle) placed their baht against the coin telephone they were electrocuted. Not from the telephone directly but from the overhead light.

Something to think about as the rains come.

...Ken

[TaxinMeter]

A very enlightening discussion about these sad and tragic events. When I read the Nation on Saturday I shook my head in disbelief, thinking TIT and imagined how the lives of the parents and the community must be affected finding four children...

As to about the ignorance and negligence of the "welder", reading the discussion though it seems like it was not his fault (alone)? Anyway, in Thailand wiring and piping are sub-standard in almost every instance I've seen.

While with the piping the shoddy workmanship will show sooner or later with water leaking from the upstairs bathroom etc. because the ubiquitous blue pipes are just connected with some glue which gets old and rots away. But a few brown stains on the ceiling are harmless and won't kill anyone.

With the wiring, as soon as the wires are connected the appliances work, and as there is no sense of quality whatsoever that's "po dee", good enough, who would spare a thought (danger of "puat hua", headache) about earthing the appliances? Exceptions might be made where it's known to be dangerous, such as shower water heaters. Then wires are stripped to the outside of the wall and dug into the ground a few centimeters, the next rain will dig it out again.

The original sin was Thailand adapting the Type A plug and wiring (probably following the example of Japan and possibly the U.S.), with their flimsy plugs which indeed can be pulled out of the wall by gravity alone and are not earthed. But while the voltage in the U.S. and Japan is only 110 Volts+, here it's the full 220 Volts which is more dangerous.

The former British interests in the region (Malaysia, HK) have much better wiring and solid plugs in Indonesia they even have have Schuko plugs which go in with a thud and are all earthed. Still this is tragic accident and as long as it remains a rather rare event and people don't drop dead left and right nothing substantial will change here any time soon.

[Martin]

'TaxinMeter' said, in post 41:

"Thailand wiring and piping are sub-standard in almost every instance I've seen. "

He is right. What we see, because it is visible, is often crap----because it is done by 'cowboys' and amateurs.

What we don't see is the work that is done to the highest international standards by the (Thailand-trained) professionals. I have been very impressed when visiting EGAT power stations, and 'behind' the scenes' in the switchgear rooms of Bangkok skyscrapers, that all is so well.

And the way that my local electricity distribution supply system has been engineered to stand up under intense lightning activity (and be quickly restored when the worst strikes happen) is outstandingly better than anything I have known in the West.

(OK, I know Singapore Public Utilities Board has a super system, too. But it is different there, as theirs is a cabled system.)

It is not surprising that the 'household' scene is not yet up to Western standards. But give it one more generation. Good standards in the West are only fifty years old. Thailand will catch up in half that time, and then (in the slipstream of China) move ahead of the West.

[Greer]

I have recently moved house a couple of times and each time I was understandably worried about the electical standards of the new place. Both homes needed to have the wiring upgraded from the supply pole to our switchboard as we were to add extra circuits to supply air-conditioners for bedrooms and my office, and in both cases we were lucky enough to find electicians who knew what they were doing.

Having said that, the first crew, although knowing the correct way to wire in some of the extra circuits, did not do so until forced to comply by the electical supply authority inspector - who refused to reconnect the pole-top fuse until the new consumer mains feed was fitted correctly and the board had the upgrades installed properly.

Good on them - I was both surprised and heartened to see them taking a hard line on safety.

The second time we moved, the electricians were very good. I asked them to install earths to several points around the house (couldn't get them all done at the time), and they did an excellent job.

To the poster who suggested running an earth wire around the house to all the appliances, in fact this will work beter than nothing, but the correct way to do it is with a "star" system.

It is still possible to get a bite from equipment and appliances earthed with a "ring" system, as the continuity of the earth depends on the connection quality at EACH point around the house.

In a star system, you simply go to the electical supply shop and buy an EARTH LINK. It is a solid brass bar with holes to take the cable and grub screws used to clamp each wire into the hole. These are definitely available in Thailand, but you may have to search a little if you can't describe it in Thai.

Now run a separate earth wire to each power point or to each room and loop to each power point in the room. The wire should be either green or green/yellow insulated multi-stranded copper wire - usually at least 7 strand, and about 4mm diameter overall.

You also need to purchase one of the aforementioned earth rods, about 2m long and I guess around 12mm or 15mm diameter with a screwed type cable clamp to hold the earth cable at the top end. You also must buy sufficient large diameter multi-stranded, insulated copper earth cable to go from the switchboard where you mount the earth bar, out through the wall to the location of the earth rod. I suggest not less than a 15mm square copper conductor, but preferably perhaps 20mm.

As mentioned elsewhere, you now hammer the earth rod into the ground - almost all the way - until you have about 100mm left protruding clear of the ground. Use the clamp to affix the bared copper cable end onto the rod. At the earth bar, there is usually at least one larger hole - usually at one end - the main incoming earth from the rod is then screwed under the grub screws in the larger hole.

All the incoming "star" earth feds from around the house are screwed into the other smaller holes, and that's about it. Obviously you also need to replace all the outlets with 3-pin types and wire the new earth cables to that third pin on the outlet.

Installing a proper earth will not adversely affect the operation of the ELCB or GFI at your home - but if you find that it constantly trips when you plug in certain appliances - you need to have those appliances checked, as they are "leaking" power to the earth, thus causing the Earth Leakage Circuit Breaker to trip.

As with all advice on this forum -

ALWAYS CHECK WITH THE LOCAL AUTHORITY TO CHECK THE LEGALITY AND SAFETY OF ANY ADVICE OR RECOMMENDATION AS IT PERTAINS TO YOUR LOCAL CIRCUMSTANCES.

I do not accept any liability to any claim arising out of or related to the above information and/or advice.

[Diablo Bob]

While at HomePro the other day, they sale brass grounding rods along with GFI plugs etc.

[benlee53]

We have had several building jobs done, over the years, as we have progressively enlarged/extended/renewed our house in a village in Isaan.

Each time, the electrician contractor has properly included an earth-leakage-circuit-breaker (ELCB) in his list of materials for my wife to buy for him to do the job, and he has installed it correctly. (The American for ELCB is GFI (ground fault interruptor).)

This could be because my wife always chooses the building team and sub-contractors very carefully.

When looking for who to give the contract to, she weeds out any 'cowboys' by chatting to them about their past.

Mostly we get men (and, sometimes, their wives, too) who have spent many years doing high-quality work in the building of palaces and hotels in the Gulf, or in Bangkok.

Even then, she keeps a close eye on the standard of their work.

After they have been told, a few times, to slow down and do it even better, they get the message.

I thought at first that they might be resistant to that (as it makes them spend more hours/days on the job), but they seem pleased to be able to show their workmanship at its best.

(She does include an excellent lunch, and the occasional drop of Lao Khao at 'home time', in the deal. I think she knows them to be more concerned about it being a happy job than getting it done quickly.)

When I first came, I wanted to do a little electrical installation and wondered if I could get an ELCB here.

In the electrical-installation-supplies shop in Udon, I started to draw a picture of what I wanted, but the moment that I wrote 'ELCB', the assistant beckoned me to a whole shelfful to choose the rating that I wanted. I was impressed.

Like in any other country, there is a need to get the 'cowboys' here up to the standard of the best.

I can remember in Canada, USA and UK, when "Grounding" and "Urffing", was a bit of a mystery.

Even the Technical College textbooks were weak on it, and the University graduates learnt nothing about it. But Health and Safety is taught better now.

Thinking about this tragic accident, I had come to the conclusion that it must have been caused by a fault occurring on the primary-side wiring, such as a broken neutral, where the supply transformer (not the welding transformer) is on the other side of the klong.

When this sort of thing happened in Britain's power stations (and some may remember the four electricians 'fried' in a precipitator at Eggborough), the Safety Engineers used to get the Coroner's Report circulated to them.

I hope the young engineers here get trained similarly, but I can't find out as I don't speak or read Thai.

[Virgil]

So sad,

If even a small electrical current bridges the chest cavity a cardiac event may occur. In itself, the event may not be fatal. But could well be sufficient to cause a loss of conciousness ... which, if you're swimming in a canal, would be fatal.

Frankly, I think it is just one of those tragic accidents. I feel for the children, their family and friends, and even the poor welder - perhaps he had no idea that his equipment (or property) had an earth leakage problem.

Having said that, rural Thai houses are notorious for their poor wiring. I know there is a timber post with wiring in my wife's parents house which, if you lean on it, gives you the hippy-hippy shakes. And the wiring in the bathroom ... OMG!

Virgil, out!

[elkangorito]

'TaxinMeter' said, in post 41:

"Thailand wiring and piping are sub-standard in almost every instance I've seen. "

He is right. What we see, because it is visible, is often crap----because it is done by 'cowboys' and amateurs.

What we don't see is the work that is done to the highest international standards by the (Thailand-trained) professionals. I have been very impressed when visiting EGAT power stations, and 'behind' the scenes' in the switchgear rooms of Bangkok skyscrapers, that all is so well.

And the way that my local electricity distribution supply system has been engineered to stand up under intense lightning activity (and be quickly restored when the worst strikes happen) is outstandingly better than anything I have known in the West.

(OK, I know Singapore Public Utilities Board has a super system, too. But it is different there, as theirs is a cabled system.)

It is not surprising that the 'household' scene is not yet up to Western standards. But give it one more generation. Good standards in the West are only fifty years old. Thailand will catch up in half that time, and then (in the slipstream of China) move ahead of the West.

These 'Thai Trained' professionals are ALMOST exactly as you say...'Trained' professionals...trained by foreigners. Most of this work has been 'commissioned' by foreigners & therefore the 'mistakes' have been corrected...before you had the chance to see the mistakes & before the people had the chance to suffer the mistakes.

[elkangorito]

Hi Greer, my replies are in Blue.

I have recently moved house a couple of times and each time I was understandably worried about the electical standards of the new place. Both homes needed to have the wiring upgraded from the supply pole to our switchboard as we were to add extra circuits to supply air-conditioners for bedrooms and my office, and in both cases we were lucky enough to find electicians who knew what they were doing.

Having said that, the first crew, although knowing the correct way to wire in some of the extra circuits, did not do so until forced to comply by the electical supply authority inspector - who refused to reconnect the pole-top fuse until the new consumer mains feed was fitted correctly and the board had the upgrades installed properly.

Good on them - I was both surprised and heartened to see them taking a hard line on safety.

The second time we moved, the electricians were very good. I asked them to install earths to several points around the house (couldn't get them all done at the time), and they did an excellent job.

To the poster who suggested running an earth wire around the house to all the appliances, in fact this will work beter than nothing, but the correct way to do it is with a "star" system. The 'Star System' you refer to relates to the connection of the 'Star Point' of the Distribution Transformer, to earth. There is no such thing as a 'star system' with regard to earthing but I do have an idea to what you are refering.

It is still possible to get a bite from equipment and appliances earthed with a "ring" system, as the continuity of the earth depends on the connection quality at EACH point around the house. Please explain? The 'Ring System' refers to;

i) In the UK, all appliances have individual OVERLOAD fuses for each appliance.

ii) In other countries, the 'Ring Main/system' pertains to a high voltage power supply that allows connection to low voltage transformers with added protective devices.

In no way, does the 'ring main/system' you speak of, have anything to do with earthing.

In a star system, you simply go to the electical supply shop and buy an EARTH LINK. It is a solid brass bar with holes to take the cable and grub screws used to clamp each wire into the hole. These are definitely available in Thailand, but you may have to search a little if you can't describe it in Thai. Everything you say is correct here except for the mention of the 'star system'.

Now run a separate earth from the Main Earth Bar to each power point or to each room and loop to each power point in the room. The wire should be either green or green/yellow insulated multi-stranded copper wire - usually at least 7 strand mainly 11 strand, and about 4mm 2.5mm is adequate for power circuits diameter overall.

You also need to purchase one of the aforementioned earth rods, about 2m long and I guess around 12mm or 15mm diameter with a screwed type cable clamp to hold the earth cable at the top end. You also must buy sufficient large diameter multi-stranded, insulated copper earth cable to go from the switchboard where you mount the earth bar, out through the wall to the location of the earth rod. I suggest not less than a 15mm square copper conductor, but preferably perhaps 20mm.

As mentioned elsewhere, you now hammer the earth rod into the ground - almost all the way - until you have about 100mm left protruding clear of the ground. Use the clamp to affix the bared copper cable end onto the rod. At the earth bar, there is usually at least one larger hole - usually at one end - the main incoming earth from the rod is then screwed under the grub screws in the larger hole.

All the incoming "star" earth feds from around the house are screwed into the other smaller holes, and that's about it. Obviously you also need to replace all the outlets with 3-pin types and wire the new earth cables to that third pin on the outlet.

Installing a proper earth will not adversely affect the operation of the ELCB or GFI at your home - but if you find that it constantly trips when you plug in certain appliances - you need to have those appliances checked, as they are "leaking" power to the earth, thus causing the Earth Leakage Circuit Breaker to trip.

As with all advice on this forum -

ALWAYS CHECK WITH THE LOCAL AUTHORITY TO CHECK THE LEGALITY AND SAFETY OF ANY ADVICE OR RECOMMENDATION AS IT PERTAINS TO YOUR LOCAL CIRCUMSTANCES.

I do not accept any liability to any claim arising out of or related to the above information and/or advice.

Greer, although you post good info, it is technically incorrect. This 'incorrectnes' can lead to confusion & therefore trouble.

Please see

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=67644&hl=

or

http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring/