Senate meeting turns chaotic: Thai amnesty bill

[blaze]

Fookhat

I admire and appreciate your dedication to and understanding of the role of democratcic government to resolve conflicts within society.

Of course- as in US, Canada, UK, Mexico, Germany etc etc there are those who will claim that their goverment is secretly planning to invade Poland.

But- many should ask themselves why most of the world- included many Thais- agree that only through dialogue and respect for differences of opinion - above all the belief that all citizens have an equal share in deciding the future of a nation- that all people regarding of class are entitled to their perception- that NO person- not even me- has a monopolyy on truth- that those who disagree offer opportunities to refine or even change our own opinions-

And the reason older people know this- is that they have seen the alternative- when (see below)...

[Sunderland]

At a touch before 11pm the Thai senate vetoed the amnesty bill by voting 141 (not in agreement with it) with 0 (in agreement).

Therefore the bill returns to the lower house. We must now wait 180 days to see whether the government and its coalition partners keep the promise to bury the amnesty bill or try to push it through without the need to go through the senate again.

Alternatively, Thaksin/Yingluck can backtrack on the promise not to issue an executive decree on the amnesty bill and push that through.

Anything is possible.

[hellodolly]

Not a house of laws, but a kindergarten of children.

Thailand will reap what it sows

You are being far to generous to them.

What a sad state of affairs.! width=19 alt=bah.gif> The country is burning and the senators are involved in their own little pissingcontest!

With their size of "apparatus", they are at risk of getting their feet wet!! width=32 alt=coffee1.gif>

Sad day for all Thais and us expats, who call Thailand for home!!

Yes and who is taking advantage of this? The dem party backed Suthep Roadshow. What a coincidence, Suthep puts a 6pm deadline on the bill being binned or the demonstrations go on and the gang of 40 slow the procedure down as much as possible.

well it is now after 11:00PM and the sky has not fallen. Just in case keep your head where it will be protected.

pathetic the lot of them..they should be charged with fraud...taking money under false pretences..(WAGES)......i just dont get the point of this explain to me please someone... width=20 alt=wai2.gif>

See my reply to the first quote.

[blaze]

Praise the lord.

Compliments to the gang of 40.

Now - those who predicted its demise, are confirmed as right.

Of course there will still be those who insist that this issue will come up again soon.

But hopefully all talk of amnesty is once and for all DONE.

NOw why didn't the 40 drag it out? Beats me. Tactically it would have been an excellent move--

But with the IJC ruling- I think they recognize that the entire anti govt coalition is riding a tiger--

One that cooler heads would prefer to dismount.

Of course the Govt won't submit any more amnesty bills- they don't mind pissing off the right wing- but their own people? not going to happen.

So what will be Suthep's justification now for being on the street?

At a touch before 11pm the Thai senate vetoed the amnesty bill by voting 141 (not in agreement with it) with 0 (in agreement).

Therefore the bill returns to the lower house. We must now wait 180 days to see whether the government and its coalition partners keep the promise to bury the amnesty bill or try to push it through without the need to go through the senate again.

Alternatively, Thaksin/Yingluck can backtrack on the promise not to issue an executive decree on the amnesty bill and push that through.

Anything is possible.

The demonstrators are simply using the basis of its demise being unofficial as a technical tool to make the government squirm and build for a possible ouster of this rabble back to the rice paddies where they belong!!!

[Sunderland]

If the 3-day strike fails to bring great numbers out to protest about ...... mmmmm ... government corruption and incompetence and the push for the amnesty bill ... then the numbers on Rajadamnoen will start to fizzle downwards next week.

The whole country should come out and voice their dislike for every corrupt official and Parliamentary figure ... but would there be anyone left??? Not going to happen. Will be back to square one soon, with everything quickly forgotten, just like every new law that is introduced.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Sunderland

[hellodolly]

alt=wai2.gif width=20 height=20> Hard to believe that these people call themselves grown ups and educated and think they are panacea of Thailand! alt=bah.gif width=19 height=19>

+1

I told you, these senators couldn't care less. They were definitely paid under the table from secret staging Pheu Thai ground officials to delay that bill as long as they are ordered and bribed...

The scum of Thailand as usual...

it's the democrats, who are delaying the debate on amnesty. Do you believe in conspiracy theories, that 40 senators were paid to destroy their own party?

To be honest I don't think any money changed hands. There actions are in the hopes of future gains

It appears that some (SiamP and Max) don't really understand the makeup of the senate. The 40 senators who are apparantly trying to delay the debate are appointed. They are died in the wool anti-Thaksin people. The purpose of the appointed senators was to separate at least a segment of the senate from politics- you might want to find out just when this situation came about and who did the appointing.

Why do you think the senators didn't show up on Friday and now would seek to delay voting on the amnesty bill?

In whose interest is it to keep alive the notion that the bill is even worthy of debate? Let alone extended debate? (Hint- the government knows that as long as people believe that this bill is an issue for them, their life span is pretty short. And their opponents know this too.

(So don't be surprised if the 40 senators vote in FAVOR of the bill just to keep it as a rallying point for street protests. Though hopefully, not even these guys would stoop that low).

If the opposition was to accept- or to voice their belief that in fact the gov't wishes they'd never even brought up the notion of amnesty- then the whole raison d'etre for this current round of protests would come to a pleasantly grinding halt.

However by screaming that the gov't will make the same mistake in 180 days, then the true plan will be exposed: which is of course, to render the government incapable of governing- and thus forcing it to step down (or at least dissolve the house).

There are many on the anti-amnesty side that DO believe in the democratic process- and do believe that they are simplyh protesting the submission of a bad piece of legislation. They might not be whistling so loudly (some of them) when they understand that this was merely a pretext to remove the elected government through non-constitutional means.

I really believe you are wrong. this was a Demonstration put on to try to put an end to the attempting of a white wash on Thaksin. The PTP underestimated their power. and refused to back down. When it became apparent that they were not as strong as they thought they were it was to late to back down and the people from all different walks of life came together to stop it where given enough time to evolve to the point where they wanted the government to step down.

Had the PTP done the right thing early on the demonstrators would have gone home.

Less than a week ago the PTP were the PTP lobbying senators to pass the bill. Now they are the PTPredshirts again and probably lobbying the senate to sink the Bill.

Who was it that said

"Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive."

[hellodolly]

One cannot lose what one never possessed. After the 1962 verdict, the Thais were intelligent and exploited a loophole, and then occupied a virtually uninhabited spot and claimed it. That loophole has been closed.

Now Democrats are resigning their positions to use the public to turn a protest into a 'street coup'. The army said it will not become involved, but when the fires start again the Keystone Kops will not be able to handle it.

Both sides seem more than willing to sacrifice their followers for the acquisition of power. One resigning senator said "the country should not be run by politicians for a few years". That is not democratic at all. Abhisit told Yingluck she would 'join her brother in exiile' if she did not do what he demanded. I am not taking sides, just discussing a logical chain of connected events.

These are clearly comments preluding some kind of coup.

I am not taking sides.......

Another of the 'I'm not a Thaksin supporter but....' ilk.

The Shin heavy - Yaoapa - cut debate at 04:00 am, ensuring that the opposition didn't get their promised share of debating time, and forced a vote. As per the constitution it went to the senate where, at first, the PTP heavies waded in to try & influence their vote.

So, the opposition unsurprisingly took to the streets & then so did quite a few other groups to protest against the amnesty designed for the head of the clan. When the NACC mentioned that up to 25,000 other potential corruption cases would go out the same window, even more groups voiced their opposition.

It's not surprising that the senate is in turmoil as many of them are under instructions to vote for the bill but they know that public opinion is largely against.

Abhisit and others are not calling for a coup directly (some no doubt are). First they want the amnesty bill dropped and no new bills introduced. With the support they are getting - some from those wanting PTP out of power - they have suggested that Yingluck get out. Most demonstrators would be off the streets tonight if the Shin dynasty would stop their shenanikins and let more capable people run the country.

Thaksin's older sister is the main cause of this debacle so it's all about Shins helping their clan ruin the country. All the while the clan's puppet without real power talks empty talk.

Sorry I don't understand this part.

Thaksin's older sister is the main cause of this debacle so it's all about Shins helping their clan ruin the country. All the while the clan's puppet without real power talks empty talk.

I haven't heard a word out of her. I have been wondering at her silence. What am I missing?

[notmyself]

The can has been kicked 180 days down the road.

[blaze]

Hello Hellodolly

I agree that most of the people who went to the streets did so to voice opposition to the amesty bill.

There are - and you kinow this- people in this country who don't like the notion of a Thaksin- especially THAT thaksin- being anywhere near govt- amnesty or no amnesty.

And there are others who simply don't like Democracy to begin with (the notion of equal right to determine the course of the nation is not universal).

And then there are those who want power- and see the current governmnet as an impediment to their 'rightful' assumption of the PM's chair.

Two things have happened:

the IJC ruling and:

The amnesty bill is dead.

So why are people on the streets?

Is it to support a NEW focus: the government 'giving away' the Cambodian temple?

Or, now that the current bill is dead, is the new mantra, "yingluk get out'?'

You know- there are a lot of reputations at stake right now- and you also know- that Thais don't so much operate on personal principle as the principles of loyalty-

Some (Suthep) have made major sacrifices.

But to what end? =

I dunno man- I think that the PTP shot itself in the foot- and the Dems are about to shoot themselves in the elbow- (with their hard choice about supporting the ultras).

Well- we could all be surprised if some how this thing- just becomes 'nice'- but I don't think it will=- there are too many egos at stake- and some principles.

[blaze]

Here is the irony:

When Abhisit offered to hold elections in six months(?)- the reds said NO.

And we know how that played out.

It began simply: Abhisit get out- then it got hotter than most statistics indicate.

Now the Reds (light reds) have pulled back on the key bill

And will the opposition accept that? Or will they too find an excuse to say NO

Yingluk Get Out.

And how will it play? Again.

But this time- there is a song- "Won't get fooled again'-

Someday in this country- even his most vociferous opponents may beg Thaksin to come back- because it could be a lot worse!

(think back to some of the statements spewed from the PAD stages of ten years back).

Consider that, khun Falang- it wouldn't be a first in 'developing countries'.

Edited November 11, 2013 by blaze

[easybullet3]

What a sad state of affairs.! The country is burning and the senators are involved in their own little pissingcontest!

With their size of "apparatus", they are at risk of getting their feet wet!!

Sad day for all Thais and us expats, who call Thailand for home!!

i'm confused! I thought I read a couple of days ago that this Amnesty Bill was WITHDRAWN by the lower house of representatives.

so how can it still be debated if its withdrawn and finished.

wasnt there some sort of 300+ vote to 1 (to withdraw it) ???

so how can it continue after this?

[Thainy Tim]

Here is the irony:

When Abhisit offered to hold elections in six months(?)- the reds said NO.

And we know how that played out.

It began simply: Abhisit get out- then it got hotter than most statistics indicate.

Now the Reds (light reds) have pulled back on the key bill

And will the opposition accept that? Or will they too find an excuse to say NO

Yingluk Get Out.

And how will it play? Again.

But this time- there is a song- "Won't get fooled again'-

Someday in this country- even his most vociferous opponents may beg Thaksin to come back- because it could be a lot worse!

(think back to some of the statements spewed from the PAD stages of ten years back).

Consider that, khun Falang- it wouldn't be a first in 'developing countries'.

The damage was done and the anger inflamed the moment they brought this controversial bill to the fore. The transparency of corruption, payoffs and puppeteering was plain for all to see.

The PTP and Yingluck just greeted it all with their outrageous indifference. This is what spurred the people to hit the streets. They could see that they (the people) and the constitution were being well and truly steamrollered. It doesn't matter if it was Suthep, or Superman who organized the rallies, the people would have ended up on the streets over this behaviour.

<deleted>.. Even the reds came out in protest against the government's betrayal, and since when did they follow dems?

It was always half in the people's minds that this was not just going to settle with the amnesty bill being thrown out by the senate. The bill is still alive folks, it is sitting back in the lower house and can be forced through in 180 days. It is only dead at senate level, it still lives and breathes and this government have proven time and again that they have no scruples or credibility. They also displayed that they can do U-turns at the drop of a hat and who is to say that they are not resting on their laurels, and waiting for all this to cool off before organizing (under the table) a pro government and pro amnesty by the (handpicked and paid) people? So they can stand up and say that seeing as public opinion has swayed the other way, we are willing to listen to the people and bring it back to life again?

The head would have to say this is a ridiculous scenario.. But In Thailand's slapstick comedy political pantomime, we also know that anything is possible and nothing is surprising.

Thaksin still wants home and we all know he is capable of the most bizarre behaviour. He (in my opinion) has burned all his bridges, and I have to concede that this may now be the only option left open to him, as ludicrous as it sounds, but even if it spelled the end of the PTP (as we know it) at least he is back and the government can dissolve and he can stand as party leader of a new coalition with new (bullshit) populist policies and a wad of cash, and he is back in business as PM of Thailand. He can then recoup his costs from the coffers as normal and its all roses around the door.

Call me insane, but stranger things happen in the little wibbly wobbly world of the PTP and Heir Thaksin.

[rametindallas]

Why is everyone in such a hurry to rush the Senate's decision? They have 60 days, by law, to decide. There are pro amnesty Thaksin lackeys in the Senate who must be convinced by the sane Senators that to continue to blindly follow instructions from Dubai will lead to chaos. Even if the majority do not want the bill to pass, there are some who want to send it back to the Lower House unchanged, where, in 180 days, it can be passed on a 50% +1 vote without the Senate's involvement. There are some Senators who realize the bill must be changed to be truly killed; either changed to the original amnesty, that excludes politicians, rally leaders, Thaksin, Abhisit, and Suthep, or be changed to a 'financial' bill that will force the PM to have to sign off on it (she has vowed to drop it). If he bill is changed, it will put the Lower House in a position of 'put up or shut up' as they will have to choose to drop it, as promised to the public. or resubmit a Thaksin favorable version, as promised to Thaksin. If the bill is passed it will go to the Constitutional Court and be decided there. I really don't believe the Army is even close to stepping in. It is early days yet with many opportunities to stop this 'blanket' amnesty. Be patient, make some more popcorn and enjoy to show.

The amnesty is dead, finished, deceased!!!

The demonstrators are simply using the basis of its demise being unofficial as a technical tool to make the government squirm and build for a possible ouster of this rabble back to the rice paddies where they belong!!!

I doubt that anyone else has noticed but the time set by Suthep of 18.00 Thai time is 11.00 AM on the 11th day of the11th month ie: armistice day whereby the 'guns fell silent' - isn't that ironic as it may be the start of all hell kicking off (especially with Thailand losing the battle for the land around Preah Vihear temple)!!! It could be the day of reckoning!!

The amnesty is dead, finished, deceased!!!

Did the Senate act already and it wasn't reported? What did they decide to do with the 'blanket' amnesty bill? Did they vote to pass it 'as is' or did they send it back to the Lower House untouched or did they send it back to the Lower House with revisions? I though I was following the news closely. Where do you get your inside information to know the outcome of the 'blanket' amnesty bill? Please direct me to the news article that states that amnesty is dead, please.

BTW Mr. Suthep is not relevant to decisions of the Senate.

There is no news article!!

I mean it is dead in spirit, in all intents and purposes, in everyway imaginable, never to be seen again.

All of the technicalities are meaningless and irrelevant so I don't know why people keep on harping on about them.

Who cares whether it has to go back to parliament via Hong Kong in 8 days (excluding weekends), it is gone!

Suthep is relevant actually as he set an ultimatum that the government could never comply with and it shows that Suthep is pulling the strings by dictating the new rules of engagement and the government has to take notice of him much to their chagrin!!

Pheu Thai are running around like the headless chickens that they are and they don't know what to do!!

Really, this government should dissolve parliament and call new elections as they stated that the amnesty law was one of the major planks of it's manifesto and they have failed to deliver on it!!

For your last post to be true, you would have to believe the WORDS of Yingluck and the government are of any value and that the government is sincere. I cannot believe them so the issue is not dead to me or some thousands of Thais out in the streets protesting with Thai flags and whistles.

I agree with your second paragraph.

Your third paragraph is wishful thinking and doesn't, IMO, relate to the current government's view of itself, if past behavior is any clue.

If you read my post again, slowly, you will see that two of the three possibly decisions of the Senate will lead to even more protests because of the continued threat that 25,000 corruption cases will be dropped, even on current members of the government or members that are soon to be charged, plus the exoneration or convicted felon and former PM Thaksin Shinawatra so that he may unfreeze his wealth, get into Parliament as a list MP and then be named MP.

He will be free to carry on as before only this time his opponents have made themselves known over the last few years, and he can target those that used to work against him behind the scenes. Thailand will transform again. You may or not like it but if/when Thaksin becomes PM again, Thailand will become a different place.

[rametindallas]

At a touch before 11pm the Thai senate vetoed the amnesty bill by voting 141 (not in agreement with it) with 0 (in agreement).

Therefore the bill returns to the lower house. We must now wait 180 days to see whether the government and its coalition partners keep the promise to bury the amnesty bill or try to push it through without the need to go through the senate again.

Alternatively, Thaksin/Yingluck can backtrack on the promise not to issue an executive decree on the amnesty bill and push that through.

Anything is possible.

sorry, replied to the wrong post

Edited November 11, 2013 by rametindallas

[blaze]

Was this a u-turn? Just an attempt to stall for time till the protesters go home?

Or was it like this:

That there might be people who have very cushy (and maybe lucrative) positions in the gov't that would like to see the gravy train roll on for a few more years.

And that Thaksin and kin know that permanent Montenegran/Dubai residence for Mister T is better than throwing the risking the whole shot--

(Not to mention elements within the Red Shirts who just may be saying- F Thaksin- this is our show now= that rare species that cynics call, 'idealists').

Even Thaksin understands that this would be bad business sense- to repopen this thing in the near (or even far) future.

If this current round of protests mysteriously dries up- would anyone in a place of power in the PTP permit a second round- leading yet to one more grovelling to 'academics'?

I think it is dead- and that if the die hard Taksinistas within the PTP want to resurrect it- they will be isolated- by even their closest alies.

HOWEVER_ it serves the agenda of those who simply want the gov't out regardless of the amnesty bill, to keep the fear of a renewed attempt to bring Thaksin back, alive.

(Which may explain why the conservative English newspapers insist that this is NOT about removing an elected government- but rather combating a bad piece of legislation).

Personally, I* think within days we will see that the Yingluck Get Out agenda will not be tucked away behind the 'stop the amnesty' placards..

And I would love to be a fly on the wall in the inner chambers where Thaksin's legitimacy to run this show is finally being questioned.

The sad thing- is this is the nature of politics- if they can't help ME- cut them loose- and that even includes YOU Khun T.

Loyalty is for the rank and file- but in the inner chambers- there is no loyalty--

and that's not just in Thailand.,.

And- if we haven't forgotten- there are many substantial reasons to want to be the governing party aside from neutering Thaksin.

Billions of dollars are spent world wide to win elections- millions of zealous voters bang the drum for their favorite party (and yes, often suggesting that the other has a secret plan to invade Poland- or turn the country into a Workers Gulag (thai visa does not have a monopoly on hyperbole).

Yet in the end- the machine in most countries sort of works-

But-- maybe - over here- 'sort of' is not good enough- then we are looking for -- what?

A savior?

God help us.

Edited November 11, 2013 by blaze

[rametindallas]

Hello Hellodolly

I agree that most of the people who went to the streets did so to voice opposition to the amesty bill.

There are - and you kinow this- people in this country who don't like the notion of a Thaksin- especially THAT thaksin- being anywhere near govt- amnesty or no amnesty.

And there are others who simply don't like Democracy to begin with (the notion of equal right to determine the course of the nation is not universal).

And then there are those who want power- and see the current governmnet as an impediment to their 'rightful' assumption of the PM's chair.

Two things have happened:

the IJC ruling and:

The amnesty bill is dead.

So why are people on the streets?

Is it to support a NEW focus: the government 'giving away' the Cambodian temple?

Or, now that the current bill is dead, is the new mantra, "yingluk get out'?'

You know- there are a lot of reputations at stake right now- and you also know- that Thais don't so much operate on personal principle as the principles of loyalty-

Some (Suthep) have made major sacrifices.

But to what end? =

I dunno man- I think that the PTP shot itself in the foot- and the Dems are about to shoot themselves in the elbow- (with their hard choice about supporting the ultras).

Well- we could all be surprised if some how this thing- just becomes 'nice'- but I don't think it will=- there are too many egos at stake- and some principles.

The amnesty bill is dead.

So why are people on the streets?

Now that the Senate did not water down or change the bill, the protests can not stop because the threat of this government, that votes in lockstep with the wishes of Thaksin (think 310 to 0 to send the bill to the Senate), can, in 180 days, pass the bill, without need of the Senate, with a 50% +1vote. If/when that happens, the law cannot be stopped, even the government is turned out afterward. Now, the protests need to call for new elections so the bill will be dead because it was promulgated by a soon to be defunct Parliament and the new Parliament won't be bound by any proposed laws or proclamations that haven't been passed into law; including the 'blanket' amnesty bill that currently, and for the next 180 days, is hanging over the head of the future of Thai democracy like the Sword of Damacles. The protest must peacefully force new elections to truly kill this bill.

[Thainy Tim]

Blaze.

Like you said, many things would not be a great idea, but since when has Mr T and the PTP ever been reasonable or rational?

I would say that given the recent goings on with this rabble, the irrational and unbelievable is probably nearer the mark.

[waza]

Hello Hellodolly

I agree that most of the people who went to the streets did so to voice opposition to the amesty bill.

There are - and you kinow this- people in this country who don't like the notion of a Thaksin- especially THAT thaksin- being anywhere near govt- amnesty or no amnesty.

And there are others who simply don't like Democracy to begin with (the notion of equal right to determine the course of the nation is not universal).

And then there are those who want power- and see the current governmnet as an impediment to their 'rightful' assumption of the PM's chair.

Two things have happened:

the IJC ruling and:

The amnesty bill is dead.

So why are people on the streets?

Is it to support a NEW focus: the government 'giving away' the Cambodian temple?

Or, now that the current bill is dead, is the new mantra, "yingluk get out'?'

You know- there are a lot of reputations at stake right now- and you also know- that Thais don't so much operate on personal principle as the principles of loyalty-

Some (Suthep) have made major sacrifices.

But to what end? =

I dunno man- I think that the PTP shot itself in the foot- and the Dems are about to shoot themselves in the elbow- (with their hard choice about supporting the ultras).

Well- we could all be surprised if some how this thing- just becomes 'nice'- but I don't think it will=- there are too many egos at stake- and some principles.

The amnesty bill is dead.

So why are people on the streets?

Now that the Senate did not water down or change the bill, the protests can not stop because the threat of this government, that votes in lockstep with the wishes of Thaksin (think 310 to 0 to send the bill to the Senate), can, in 180 days, pass the bill, without need of the Senate, with a 50% +1vote. If/when that happens, the law cannot be stopped, even the government is turned out afterward. Now, the protests need to call for new elections so the bill will be dead because it was promulgated by a soon to be defunct Parliament and the new Parliament won't be bound by any proposed laws or proclamations that haven't been passed into law; including the 'blanket' amnesty bill that currently, and for the next 180 days, is hanging over the head of the future of Thai democracy like the Sword of Damacles. The protest must peacefully force new elections to truly kill this bill.

That would include the two constitutional changes that have passed there third reading in the house of representatives while this debacle was going on.

Edited November 11, 2013 by waza

[NanLaew]

Better pack and fly out before 6pm.

I have a feeling that all hell is going to break loose.

i unpacked and cancelled my flight out when much to my delight and surprise Taksins little plan to totally take over and control all got derailed. But of course the fire engine is attempting to put it back on track which will take a while for Plan B or C to take effect The day he and his revolting clan are finally put down will be the day I will throw a huge party. As for the poor most of them deserve what they have got for blindly following a mad megalomaniac for the sake of a few baht. I know the argument no education downtrodden but it does not wash and the red thug leaders happily pillage the country

You were all packed and ready to fly out? Honestly?

Is there something wrong? Something I have missed here?

[brewsterbudgen]

Better pack and fly out before 6pm.

I have a feeling that all hell is going to break loose.

i unpacked and cancelled my flight out when much to my delight and surprise Taksins little plan to totally take over and control all got derailed. But of course the fire engine is attempting to put it back on track which will take a while for Plan B or C to take effect The day he and his revolting clan are finally put down will be the day I will throw a huge party. As for the poor most of them deserve what they have got for blindly following a mad megalomaniac for the sake of a few baht. I know the argument no education downtrodden but it does not wash and the red thug leaders happily pillage the country

You were all packed and ready to fly out? Honestly?

Is there something wrong? Something I have missed here?

Just silly over-reactions by pessimistic and unhappy expats!

[whybother]

One cannot lose what one never possessed. After the 1962 verdict, the Thais were intelligent and exploited a loophole, and then occupied a virtually uninhabited spot and claimed it. That loophole has been closed.

Now Democrats are resigning their positions to use the public to turn a protest into a 'street coup'. The army said it will not become involved, but when the fires start again the Keystone Kops will not be able to handle it.

Both sides seem more than willing to sacrifice their followers for the acquisition of power. One resigning senator said "the country should not be run by politicians for a few years". That is not democratic at all. Abhisit told Yingluck she would 'join her brother in exiile' if she did not do what he demanded. I am not taking sides, just discussing a logical chain of connected events.

These are clearly comments preluding some kind of coup.

There are two different issues. The ICJ hearing, which is not what (the majority of) the protests are about. And the amnesty, which is why most people are out there protesting.

The Thais did possess the temple after the 1904 treaty was signed. It was effectively lost after the French produced the maps in 1907/8, and properly lost after the 1962 ruling.

[easybullet3]

Here is the irony:

When Abhisit offered to hold elections in six months(?)- the reds said NO.

And we know how that played out.

It began simply: Abhisit get out- then it got hotter than most statistics indicate.

Now the Reds (light reds) have pulled back on the key bill

And will the opposition accept that? Or will they too find an excuse to say NO

Yingluk Get Out.

And how will it play? Again.

But this time- there is a song- "Won't get fooled again'-

Someday in this country- even his most vociferous opponents may beg Thaksin to come back- because it could be a lot worse!

(think back to some of the statements spewed from the PAD stages of ten years back).

Consider that, khun Falang- it wouldn't be a first in 'developing countries'.

The damage was done and the anger inflamed the moment they brought this controversial bill to the fore. The transparency of corruption, payoffs and puppeteering was plain for all to see.

The PTP and Yingluck just greeted it all with their outrageous indifference. This is what spurred the people to hit the streets. They could see that they (the people) and the constitution were being well and truly steamrollered. It doesn't matter if it was Suthep, or Superman who organized the rallies, the people would have ended up on the streets over this behaviour.

<deleted>.. Even the reds came out in protest against the government's betrayal, and since when did they follow dems?

It was always half in the people's minds that this was not just going to settle with the amnesty bill being thrown out by the senate. The bill is still alive folks, it is sitting back in the lower house and can be forced through in 180 days. It is only dead at senate level, it still lives and breathes and this government have proven time and again that they have no scruples or credibility. They also displayed that they can do U-turns at the drop of a hat and who is to say that they are not resting on their laurels, and waiting for all this to cool off before organizing (under the table) a pro government and pro amnesty by the (handpicked and paid) people? So they can stand up and say that seeing as public opinion has swayed the other way, we are willing to listen to the people and bring it back to life again?

The head would have to say this is a ridiculous scenario.. But In Thailand's slapstick comedy political pantomime, we also know that anything is possible and nothing is surprising.

Thaksin still wants home and we all know he is capable of the most bizarre behaviour. He (in my opinion) has burned all his bridges, and I have to concede that this may now be the only option left open to him, as ludicrous as it sounds, but even if it spelled the end of the PTP (as we know it) at least he is back and the government can dissolve and he can stand as party leader of a new coalition with new (bullshit) populist policies and a wad of cash, and he is back in business as PM of Thailand. He can then recoup his costs from the coffers as normal and its all roses around the door.

Call me insane, but stranger things happen in the little wibbly wobbly world of the PTP and Heir Thaksin.

i'm confused! I thought I read a couple of days ago that this Amnesty Bill was WITHDRAWN by the lower house of representatives.

so how can it still be debated if its withdrawn and finished.

wasnt there some sort of 300+ vote to 1 (to withdraw it) ???

so how can it continue after this?

[MaxLee]

Here is the irony:

When Abhisit offered to hold elections in six months(?)- the reds said NO.

And we know how that played out.

It began simply: Abhisit get out- then it got hotter than most statistics indicate.

Now the Reds (light reds) have pulled back on the key bill

And will the opposition accept that? Or will they too find an excuse to say NO

Yingluk Get Out.

And how will it play? Again.

But this time- there is a song- "Won't get fooled again'-

Someday in this country- even his most vociferous opponents may beg Thaksin to come back- because it could be a lot worse!

(think back to some of the statements spewed from the PAD stages of ten years back).

Consider that, khun Falang- it wouldn't be a first in 'developing countries'.

The damage was done and the anger inflamed the moment they brought this controversial bill to the fore. The transparency of corruption, payoffs and puppeteering was plain for all to see.

The PTP and Yingluck just greeted it all with their outrageous indifference. This is what spurred the people to hit the streets. They could see that they (the people) and the constitution were being well and truly steamrollered. It doesn't matter if it was Suthep, or Superman who organized the rallies, the people would have ended up on the streets over this behaviour.

<deleted>.. Even the reds came out in protest against the government's betrayal, and since when did they follow dems?

It was always half in the people's minds that this was not just going to settle with the amnesty bill being thrown out by the senate. The bill is still alive folks, it is sitting back in the lower house and can be forced through in 180 days. It is only dead at senate level, it still lives and breathes and this government have proven time and again that they have no scruples or credibility. They also displayed that they can do U-turns at the drop of a hat and who is to say that they are not resting on their laurels, and waiting for all this to cool off before organizing (under the table) a pro government and pro amnesty by the (handpicked and paid) people? So they can stand up and say that seeing as public opinion has swayed the other way, we are willing to listen to the people and bring it back to life again?

The head would have to say this is a ridiculous scenario.. But In Thailand's slapstick comedy political pantomime, we also know that anything is possible and nothing is surprising.

Thaksin still wants home and we all know he is capable of the most bizarre behaviour. He (in my opinion) has burned all his bridges, and I have to concede that this may now be the only option left open to him, as ludicrous as it sounds, but even if it spelled the end of the PTP (as we know it) at least he is back and the government can dissolve and he can stand as party leader of a new coalition with new (bullshit) populist policies and a wad of cash, and he is back in business as PM of Thailand. He can then recoup his costs from the coffers as normal and its all roses around the door.

Call me insane, but stranger things happen in the little wibbly wobbly world of the PTP and Heir Thaksin.

i'm confused! I thought I read a couple of days ago that this Amnesty Bill was WITHDRAWN by the lower house of representatives.

so how can it still be debated if its withdrawn and finished.

wasnt there some sort of 300+ vote to 1 (to withdraw it) ???

so how can it continue after this?

This is Thailand, were everything CORRUPTION is possible up the dirty sleeves ...

[easybullet3]

Why is everyone in such a hurry to rush the Senate's decision? They have 60 days, by law, to decide. There are pro amnesty Thaksin lackeys in the Senate who must be convinced by the sane Senators that to continue to blindly follow instructions from Dubai will lead to chaos. Even if the majority do not want the bill to pass, there are some who want to send it back to the Lower House unchanged, where, in 180 days, it can be passed on a 50% +1 vote without the Senate's involvement. There are some Senators who realize the bill must be changed to be truly killed; either changed to the original amnesty, that excludes politicians, rally leaders, Thaksin, Abhisit, and Suthep, or be changed to a 'financial' bill that will force the PM to have to sign off on it (she has vowed to drop it). If he bill is changed, it will put the Lower House in a position of 'put up or shut up' as they will have to choose to drop it, as promised to the public. or resubmit a Thaksin favorable version, as promised to Thaksin. If the bill is passed it will go to the Constitutional Court and be decided there. I really don't believe the Army is even close to stepping in. It is early days yet with many opportunities to stop this 'blanket' amnesty. Be patient, make some more popcorn and enjoy to show.

No question the best bet is to water it down and pass it but there is also the issue of 10's of thousands of people on the streets of Bangkok. You want to get these people of the streets before lives are lost.

i'm confused! I thought I read a couple of days ago that this Amnesty Bill was WITHDRAWN by the lower house of representatives.

so how can it still be debated if its withdrawn and finished.

wasnt there some sort of 300+ vote to 1 (to withdraw it) ???

so how can it continue after this? i'm confused about all the senate thing.

surely, if its finished, then its finished, right? isn't that what "withdrawn" means ????

any chance you can give a laymans brief version of why its in senate now (when its already withdrawn) ?

appreciate an answer so I can understand it more

thanks so much.

[SICHONSTEVE]

Here is the irony:

When Abhisit offered to hold elections in six months(?)- the reds said NO.

And we know how that played out.

It began simply: Abhisit get out- then it got hotter than most statistics indicate.

Now the Reds (light reds) have pulled back on the key bill

And will the opposition accept that? Or will they too find an excuse to say NO

Yingluk Get Out.

And how will it play? Again.

But this time- there is a song- "Won't get fooled again'-

Someday in this country- even his most vociferous opponents may beg Thaksin to come back- because it could be a lot worse!

(think back to some of the statements spewed from the PAD stages of ten years back).

Consider that, khun Falang- it wouldn't be a first in 'developing countries'.

The damage was done and the anger inflamed the moment they brought this controversial bill to the fore. The transparency of corruption, payoffs and puppeteering was plain for all to see.

The PTP and Yingluck just greeted it all with their outrageous indifference. This is what spurred the people to hit the streets. They could see that they (the people) and the constitution were being well and truly steamrollered. It doesn't matter if it was Suthep, or Superman who organized the rallies, the people would have ended up on the streets over this behaviour.

<deleted>.. Even the reds came out in protest against the government's betrayal, and since when did they follow dems?

It was always half in the people's minds that this was not just going to settle with the amnesty bill being thrown out by the senate. The bill is still alive folks, it is sitting back in the lower house and can be forced through in 180 days. It is only dead at senate level, it still lives and breathes and this government have proven time and again that they have no scruples or credibility. They also displayed that they can do U-turns at the drop of a hat and who is to say that they are not resting on their laurels, and waiting for all this to cool off before organizing (under the table) a pro government and pro amnesty by the (handpicked and paid) people? So they can stand up and say that seeing as public opinion has swayed the other way, we are willing to listen to the people and bring it back to life again?

The head would have to say this is a ridiculous scenario.. But In Thailand's slapstick comedy political pantomime, we also know that anything is possible and nothing is surprising.

Thaksin still wants home and we all know he is capable of the most bizarre behaviour. He (in my opinion) has burned all his bridges, and I have to concede that this may now be the only option left open to him, as ludicrous as it sounds, but even if it spelled the end of the PTP (as we know it) at least he is back and the government can dissolve and he can stand as party leader of a new coalition with new (bullshit) populist policies and a wad of cash, and he is back in business as PM of Thailand. He can then recoup his costs from the coffers as normal and its all roses around the door.

Call me insane, but stranger things happen in the little wibbly wobbly world of the PTP and Heir Thaksin.

i'm confused! I thought I read a couple of days ago that this Amnesty Bill was WITHDRAWN by the lower house of representatives.

so how can it still be debated if its withdrawn and finished.

wasnt there some sort of 300+ vote to 1 (to withdraw it) ???

so how can it continue after this?

This is Thailand, were everything CORRUPTION is possible up the dirty sleeves ...

The amnesty bill cannot come back as it is too controversial, unacceptable (to the people) and provides plenty of ammo to the opposition in organising protests designed to stop him in his tracks.

Thaksin thought that the people were stupid before so they will probably be stupid again in not realising the implications of what this bill represents - well, like he usually is, he was wrong, wrong, wrong to have abused the governments power to enable his home coming and (given) amnesty to all wrong doers of corrupt practices that occurred back in his disastrous rein(s).

He has blown his chance and should slink off to somewhere well away from Thailand with his crooked family, never to be seen again!!

[Thait Spot]

Why is everyone in such a hurry to rush the Senate's decision? They have 60 days, by law, to decide. There are pro amnesty Thaksin lackeys in the Senate who must be convinced by the sane Senators that to continue to blindly follow instructions from Dubai will lead to chaos. Even if the majority do not want the bill to pass, there are some who want to send it back to the Lower House unchanged, where, in 180 days, it can be passed on a 50% +1 vote without the Senate's involvement. There are some Senators who realize the bill must be changed to be truly killed; either changed to the original amnesty, that excludes politicians, rally leaders, Thaksin, Abhisit, and Suthep, or be changed to a 'financial' bill that will force the PM to have to sign off on it (she has vowed to drop it). If he bill is changed, it will put the Lower House in a position of 'put up or shut up' as they will have to choose to drop it, as promised to the public. or resubmit a Thaksin favorable version, as promised to Thaksin. If the bill is passed it will go to the Constitutional Court and be decided there. I really don't believe the Army is even close to stepping in. It is early days yet with many opportunities to stop this 'blanket' amnesty. Be patient, make some more popcorn and enjoy to show.

No question the best bet is to water it down and pass it but there is also the issue of 10's of thousands of people on the streets of Bangkok. You want to get these people of the streets before lives are lost.

i'm confused! I thought I read a couple of days ago that this Amnesty Bill was WITHDRAWN by the lower house of representatives.

so how can it still be debated if its withdrawn and finished.

wasnt there some sort of 300+ vote to 1 (to withdraw it) ???

so how can it continue after this? i'm confused about all the senate thing.

surely, if its finished, then its finished, right? isn't that what "withdrawn" means ????

any chance you can give a laymans brief version of why its in senate now (when its already withdrawn) ?

appreciate an answer so I can understand it more

thanks so much.

I'm sure this question has been answered a couple of dozen times already.

The house of representatives withdrew 6 very similar bills

However they had already passed this malicious one to the senate

The senate rejected it

The bill now rests with the HoR

[easybullet3]

i'm confused! I thought I read a couple of days ago that this Amnesty Bill was WITHDRAWN by the lower house of representatives.

so how can it still be debated if its withdrawn and finished.

wasnt there some sort of 300+ vote to 1 (to withdraw it) ???

so how can it continue after this? i'm confused about all the senate thing.

surely, if its finished, then its finished, right? isn't that what "withdrawn" means ????

any chance you can give a laymans brief version of why its in senate now (when its already withdrawn) ?

appreciate an answer so I can understand it more

thanks so much.

I'm sure this question has been answered a couple of dozen times already.

The house of representatives withdrew 6 very similar bills

However they had already passed this malicious one to the senate

The senate rejected it

The bill now rests with the HoR

I scanned through the previous 4 pages, and I only found loads of people saying why people are on the streets. (opposition to the Amnesty Bill, and maybe something to do with a Euro ruling about a disputed Temple).

this is the first time I have heard mention that the WITHDRAWN BILL was NOT the Amnesty Bill, but 6 similar bills!!!

is that normal? I assumed that a Bill covers the subject of Amnesty.

would there really be a total of 7 similar bills? (6 of which were withdrawn, and 1 was passed).

so this 1 bill that was passed and given to senate, was just recently REJECTED by senate? and now its in the House of Representatives?

ok. Have I understood it correctly now ?

and.. to be exact, this ONE bill that is now going to the House of Representatives is the one that will give a BLANKET AMNESTY to EVERYONE?

(is there any way of extremely briefly telling me about the 'other 6 withdrawn bills' ? they were not blanket amnesty? or were they different aspects of the amnesty?

if its similar, then why was it not just ONE bill ??

(or is it a political tactic that if you release 7 bills, then maybe 1 will get through?)

maybe 6 bills to distract from the main one ?

[notmyself]

I scanned through the previous 4 pages, and I only found loads of people saying why people are on the streets. (opposition to the Amnesty Bill, and maybe something to do with a Euro ruling about a disputed Temple).

this is the first time I have heard mention that the WITHDRAWN BILL was NOT the Amnesty Bill, but 6 similar bills!!!

is that normal? I assumed that a Bill covers the subject of Amnesty.

would there really be a total of 7 similar bills? (6 of which were withdrawn, and 1 was passed).

so this 1 bill that was passed and given to senate, was just recently REJECTED by senate? and now its in the House of Representatives?

ok. Have I understood it correctly now ?

and.. to be exact, this ONE bill that is now going to the House of Representatives is the one that will give a BLANKET AMNESTY to EVERYONE?

(is there any way of extremely briefly telling me about the 'other 6 withdrawn bills' ? they were not blanket amnesty? or were they different aspects of the amnesty?

if its similar, then why was it not just ONE bill ??

(or is it a political tactic that if you release 7 bills, then maybe 1 will get through?)

maybe 6 bills to distract from the main one ?

A total of 7 amnesty bills existed, none of them to my knowledge contained a blanket amnesty. The one in question was changed (was amended) after its first reading to contain a blanket amnesty with the second and third reading happening in just one evening. The democrats had 6 MPs where were due to speak at the House but after 3 the speaker just ignore the rules and put it to the vote. It passed because there are more PTP MPs, the Dem's walked out before the vote but it would have passed anyway. The bill then goes to the upper house (senate) for supposed deliberation where it can either be passed, amended or rejected. It was rejected and so goes back to the lower house (HoR) but they cannot do anything with the bill for 180 days. The government has 'vowed' not to try and reintroduce the bill and YS said a few days back that she would not seek to reintroduce the bill in 180 days but those words do not mean she will not reintroduce the bill in 181 days.If the bill is reintroduced in 181 days and passes 'as is' through all three readings in the HoR as it did before then it does not have to go to the Senate again and can go straight for Royal approval (Like this in the UK http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_Acts_1911_and_1949). It would have been better for the senate to amend the bill to such a watered down state that nothing happens and then pass it. That way the PTP couldn't reintroduce it at a later date and force it through without the approval of the Senate. What I don't know is now the bill is back from the Senate, can the PTP do the same as the other 6 and remove it completely? If not then people will just have to trust the words of YS.

Edited November 12, 2013 by notmyself

[Artisi]

I scanned through the previous 4 pages, and I only found loads of people saying why people are on the streets. (opposition to the Amnesty Bill, and maybe something to do with a Euro ruling about a disputed Temple).

this is the first time I have heard mention that the WITHDRAWN BILL was NOT the Amnesty Bill, but 6 similar bills!!!

is that normal? I assumed that a Bill covers the subject of Amnesty.

would there really be a total of 7 similar bills? (6 of which were withdrawn, and 1 was passed).

so this 1 bill that was passed and given to senate, was just recently REJECTED by senate? and now its in the House of Representatives?

ok. Have I understood it correctly now ?

and.. to be exact, this ONE bill that is now going to the House of Representatives is the one that will give a BLANKET AMNESTY to EVERYONE?

(is there any way of extremely briefly telling me about the 'other 6 withdrawn bills' ? they were not blanket amnesty? or were they different aspects of the amnesty?

if its similar, then why was it not just ONE bill ??

(or is it a political tactic that if you release 7 bills, then maybe 1 will get through?)

maybe 6 bills to distract from the main one ?

A total of 7 amnesty bills existed, none of them to my knowledge contained a blanket amnesty. The one in question was changed (was amended) after its first reading to contain a blanket amnesty with the second and third reading happening in just one evening. The democrats had 6 MPs where were due to speak at the House but after 3 the speaker just ignore the rules and put it to the vote. It passed because there are more PTP MPs, the Dem's walked out before the vote but it would have passed anyway. The bill then goes to the upper house (senate) for supposed deliberation where it can either be passed, amended or rejected. It was rejected and so goes back to the lower house (HoR) but they cannot do anything with the bill for 180 days. The government has 'vowed' not to try and reintroduce the bill and YS said a few days back that she would not seek to reintroduce the bill in 180 days but those words do not mean she will not reintroduce the bill in 181 days.If the bill is reintroduced in 181 days and passes 'as is' through all three readings in the HoR as it did before then it does not have to go to the Senate again and can go straight for Royal approval. It would have been better for the senate to amend the bill to such a watered down state that nothing happens and then pass it. That way the PTP couldn't reintroduce it at a later date and force it through without the approval of the Senate. What I don't know is now the bill is back from the Senate, can the PTP do the same as the other 6 and remove it completely? If not then people will just have to trust the words of YS.

Think you would be safer trusting a venomous snake.

[notmyself]

I scanned through the previous 4 pages, and I only found loads of people saying why people are on the streets. (opposition to the Amnesty Bill, and maybe something to do with a Euro ruling about a disputed Temple).

this is the first time I have heard mention that the WITHDRAWN BILL was NOT the Amnesty Bill, but 6 similar bills!!!

is that normal? I assumed that a Bill covers the subject of Amnesty.

would there really be a total of 7 similar bills? (6 of which were withdrawn, and 1 was passed).

so this 1 bill that was passed and given to senate, was just recently REJECTED by senate? and now its in the House of Representatives?

ok. Have I understood it correctly now ?

and.. to be exact, this ONE bill that is now going to the House of Representatives is the one that will give a BLANKET AMNESTY to EVERYONE?

(is there any way of extremely briefly telling me about the 'other 6 withdrawn bills' ? they were not blanket amnesty? or were they different aspects of the amnesty?

if its similar, then why was it not just ONE bill ??

(or is it a political tactic that if you release 7 bills, then maybe 1 will get through?)

maybe 6 bills to distract from the main one ?

A total of 7 amnesty bills existed, none of them to my knowledge contained a blanket amnesty. The one in question was changed (was amended) after its first reading to contain a blanket amnesty with the second and third reading happening in just one evening. The democrats had 6 MPs where were due to speak at the House but after 3 the speaker just ignore the rules and put it to the vote. It passed because there are more PTP MPs, the Dem's walked out before the vote but it would have passed anyway. The bill then goes to the upper house (senate) for supposed deliberation where it can either be passed, amended or rejected. It was rejected and so goes back to the lower house (HoR) but they cannot do anything with the bill for 180 days. The government has 'vowed' not to try and reintroduce the bill and YS said a few days back that she would not seek to reintroduce the bill in 180 days but those words do not mean she will not reintroduce the bill in 181 days.If the bill is reintroduced in 181 days and passes 'as is' through all three readings in the HoR as it did before then it does not have to go to the Senate again and can go straight for Royal approval. It would have been better for the senate to amend the bill to such a watered down state that nothing happens and then pass it. That way the PTP couldn't reintroduce it at a later date and force it through without the approval of the Senate. What I don't know is now the bill is back from the Senate, can the PTP do the same as the other 6 and remove it completely? If not then people will just have to trust the words of YS.

Think you would be safer trusting a venomous snake.

It's not even just having no reason to trust, there IS every reason not to trust.