Visit to U.K with wife and adopted son

[jji23]

Hi all,

I'm a British citizen and planning a holiday to the U.K in March/April next year. My wife is Thai and has visited with me before, I'm familiar with the process for her.

In March this year we began formally adopting my wife's nephew. (Though he has been living with us since March) We have submitted all the required documents and the process is ongoing. I'm hoping that we will have the adoption certificate within the next few months but can't be sure.

If it wasn't to arrive what should I do when it comes to applying for a visa for my wife and son? He will be under 2 years old. Also, as of right now we are not his paper (legal) guardians, will he be granted a visa? Allowed to leave the country at the airport?

Has anyone had any experience on this issue?

Thanks

[7by7]

VAT3.3 What are the key requirements for children visiting the UK?

All applicants who are under the age of 18 must show that:

• they have adequate travel, reception and care arrangements for their stay in the UK;
• they have a parent or guardian in their home country or country of habitual residence who is responsible for their care; and
• their parent / guardian agrees to them travelling.

If you do not have the formal adoption completed, can you show that you and/or your wife are the child's legal guardians?

If not, are you still in contact with the child's parent(s) so that you can obtain their consent?

[steady]

Where did you get the understanding that the Thai adoption process would be complete within the year? We looked into it about 3 years ago and the people in the government agency which deals with adoptions involving a foreigner told the wife that we shouldn't be surprised to wait between 4 and 6 years!

As it happens the legal adoption doesn't really affect anything when going for a visitor's visa. 7by7 has shown the rules that must be satisfied. In addition we used a Por Khor 14 from the local amphur to show that we were legally taking care of our niece and that she was coming on holiday with us as a family member. Getting that drafted meant an input from our niece's mother so it all fitted in nicely.

[jji23]

Hi, I'm not sure we can show that we are legally his guardians. We can definitely obtain written consent from the child's mother (my wife's sister). Thanks for the info re the requirements, I feel a lot more confident about applying now.

Steady, as this is an in family adoption we have been informed that the process won't be as long as other adoption applications.

[SantiSuk]

I can send you some very simple consent wording in English and Thai if you have to go down the consent route. Nothing formal or approved, but it worked last year with VFS (UK) and whoever runs the German embassy process. You will need consent from both mother and father and unfortunately practical difficulties (like they live 1500 kilometers away and are hard to find hold little sway). Remember to get them to get a copy of their ID cards (both sides) which they should countersign and date.

Edit: you don't mention the boy's natural father. Unless the mother took sole guardianship of the boy (legally) through death/divorce/some other legal process you are probably going to have to search for him and get his permission. Phone the embassy if in doubt

Edited November 13, 2013 by SantiSuk

[steady]

Santi Suk has made a good point - what is the legal situation with the father? If the mother will give consent to you but she doesn't have sole rights to the child then what will happen? I'm not too sure what the outcome would be. In our situation that wasn't an issue as our niece's father (wife's brother) had died and we had the death certificate. Going to the amphur office with the natural mother and all the relevant paperwork made getting the KP14 just a 10 minute job. I imagine that we would not have been successful if there had been a question about the father.

Getting the KP14 would allow you to be considered the child's guardians in Thailand, although the legal standing of the document outside of Thailand has been questioned. All I know is that it worked for us when getting visas for our niece from the British Embassy - visitor and settlement.

[7by7]

..........it worked last year with VFS (UK)...........

Whilst I don't want to come across as a hopeless pedant, this is important.

There is no such organisation as VFS(UK); or if there is they have nothing to do with UK visa applications in Bangkok.

VFS Global run the UK visa application centre in Bangkok; as they do in many other locations for many other countries.

The UKVAC is purely, as the name suggests, an application centre. VFS staff merely collect applications and check the supporting documents; but not the validity of same. They play no part in the decision making process.

The decision on whether to grant a visa or not is made by UK Visas & Immigration staff at the British embassy; or if deemed necessary in the UK.

You are correct, though, that the consent of both parents is usually required unless the one consenting parent shows that they have sole custody of the child due to divorce and a custody order or the other parent's death.

However, from VAT3.4 Parent/Guardian consent

The ECO should refuse the application if they have doubts about whether consent has been given, or where there is nothing from the parent or guardian and no reasonable explanation as to why this is so.

So, if the parents are separated with no formal custody and it is impractical to obtain the consent of one parent due, for example, to losing contact with them it is still possible to obtain a visa for the child if this is fully explained in the application.

A PK 14, whilst not formally recognised by the UK, can obviously help in this regard.

Edited November 13, 2013 by 7by7

[Jay Sata]

I'm afraid you face quite a few hurdles that will take a lot longer than six months to overcome.

The major issue is anti trafficking procedures which means that you can't just bring a child to the UK

without the required paperwork. It will take a lot more than a letter from your wife's sister.

Steady, as this is an in family adoption we have been informed that the process won't be as long as other adoption applications.

I don't know where you got that idea from. I wanted to legally adopt my wife's son many years ago. The whole process involved authorities

in both Thailand and the UK and can take years. I gave up in the end.

[7by7]

I'm afraid you face quite a few hurdles that will take a lot longer than six months to overcome.

The major issue is anti trafficking procedures which means that you can't just bring a child to the UK

without the required paperwork. It will take a lot more than a letter from your wife's sister.

Were the OP asking about a settlement visa your comment may have some merit. But he isn't; he's asking about a visit.

I suggest that you read the relevant Entry Clearance Guidance and relevant part of the immigration rules.

Immigration rules, para 46A(v)

(v) has a parent or guardian in their home country or country of habitual residence who is responsible for their care and who confirms that they consent to the arrangements for the applicant's travel, reception and care in the United Kingdom

[Jay Sata]

Back to the subject, I again refer you to paragraph 46A(v).

I am fully aware of the complexities of inter country adoption. But for a visit visa this is not necessary if the OP has the consent of the child's parents; or just one parent if that parent has sole custody/responsibility; as the above paragraph says.

I am not the only poster who has had to correct your wrong advice in this forum; people far more knowledgeable than I have often had to do so in the past.

jji23,

I apologise for Jay Sata dragging your topic off subject, as he has done to so many others in the past.

The OP has stated that he and his wife have an informal arrangement to take care of the child and bring it up as their own.

In effect a de facto adoption without the paperwork. This is a lot different to bringing a relatives child to the UK on

holiday with his or her parents permission.

This sort of informal adoption arrangement was recently highlighted by the Roma family in Greece who hit the headlines.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/greece-girl-maria-first-picture-2476488

I'd be very surprised if a visa was issued for an infant to enter the UK on just a letter from the parent who has in effect given her child to another couple without going through proper adoption procedures.

Edited November 13, 2013 by Jay Sata

[7by7]

What an accusation of child abduction in Greece has to do with a UK visit visa application, only you know.

The UK immigration rules are quite clear; if jji21 has the consent of the parent with custody/responsibility then that is sufficient.

Even a de facto adoption probably would be; as the quote from the ECGs in post 2 shows. However, the child has not been living with jji21 and his wife long enough for this.

[Jay Sata]

You refer to the Greece case as being abduction but it was an agreed de facto adoption with the consent of the child's mother.

The headlines exaggerated the issue but the Greek authorities saw the situation differently.

You pretty much suggest it's OK for a British passport holder to bring someone else's child to the UK as long as there is a letter from the mother or father to say they have given the child to new parents in an informal arrangement.

In the case of an infant the entry clearance officer will want to know why someone else child is being brought to the UK on holiday and want to see legal paperwork supporting the relationship.

All you are doing is pointing to a paragraph on the UKBA website.

[7by7]

I am pointing to, and quoting, the immigration rules, i.e. the law, and the official guidance issued to ECOs.

Both of these say that for a visit visa the consent of the child's parents is sufficient.

I suggest that you read them before making any further comment.

The rules for settlement are quite different and much stricter.

[theoldgit]

A number of posts have been removed, can we please keep this thread on the topic of somebody who wishes to apply for a visit visa for the UK.

[Jay Sata]

I am pointing to, and quoting, the immigration rules, i.e. the law, and the official guidance issued to ECOs.

Both of these say that for a visit visa the consent of the child's parents is sufficient.

I suggest that you read them before making any further comment.

The rules for settlement are quite different and much stricter.

The question here is who are the child's parents?

Are you talking about the biological parents or the OP and his wife?

The wording of the visit visa is for example for someone to take a relatives child on holiday to the UK

for tourism and sightseeing purposes.

It's unusual for someone to bring her sisters baby to the UK on holiday and that will emerge during the application. I can imagine when they apply for the visa questions will be asked about wanting to take someone else's baby for a UK holiday where no legal adoption/care papers exist.

You appear to suggest anyone can turn up at Heathrow with an infant that is not their's and be stamped in?

I'm sure UK social services would have a different take on it.

It would be interesting to hear if anyone else has done this.

Edited November 13, 2013 by Jay Sata

[7by7]

The rules are quite clear; parent's or guardian's consent.

In this case, jji23 and his wife appear to be the child's guardians; but not legal guardians. Therefore the consent to the visit of the child's parent(s) is required and sufficient.

Read the rules and the guidance previously linked to; it's all in there.

Edit, I also suggest that you read the posts by SantiSuk and steady above. They have both done it.

Edited November 13, 2013 by 7by7

[Jay Sata]

So the KP14 from the Amphur is the vital piece of paper?

[7by7]

As I said above, whilst not formally recognised by the UK, a PK 14 can help in establishing who has responsibility for the child and therefore whose consent is required.

[jji23]

The biological parents were not married when the child was born. The last I heard about the biological father he was in jail. I'm hoping that due to the fact that they weren't married and that my wife's sister technically has sole custody we won't require anything from him.

[7by7]

Is he named on the birth certificate?

If not, his input is not required.

If he is, then evidence, such as a PK 14, to show that although she does not have formal legal custody your sister in law does have sole responsibility will be beneficial.

I think that in the circumstances you describe that an explanation of those circumstances in your sponsor's letter plus your sister in law's consent should be sufficient; but it's better to be safe than sorry.

BTW, the embassy may phone your sister in law to confirm her consent; if they do and her letter is written in English they will want to speak to her in English; and if she can't do so then they will doubt the letter's authenticity.

Better to have the letter written in Thai and accompanied by an English translation. Then, if they do want to speak to her it will be a Thai speaking member of staff who makes the call.

[7by7]

Is he named on the birth certificate?

If not, his input is not required.

If he is, then evidence, such as a PK 14, to show that although she does not have formal legal custody your sister in law does have sole responsibility will be beneficial.

I think that in the circumstances you describe that an explanation of those circumstances in your sponsor's letter plus your sister in law's consent should be sufficient; but it's better to be safe than sorry.

BTW, the embassy may phone your sister in law to confirm her consent; if they do and her letter is written in English they will want to speak to her in English; and if she can't do so then they will doubt the letter's authenticity.

Better to have the letter written in Thai and accompanied by an English translation. Then, if they do want to speak to her it will be a Thai speaking member of staff who makes the call.