Thailand's Armed Forces call for national unity before it is too late

[icare999]

C'mon army, get on with it then! The tension'll keep mounting and Pheua thai will put the country further down the tubes until the army inevitably have to shut down Pheua Thai- better now than later, before things turn violent, and finally put an end to all this Shinawatra nepotism and graft once and for all.

That's assuming the Army will back the "good guys". What if they back the red shirts? Impossible?? Who knows what deals have been done?

And unfortunately, putting PTP down will not end violence, it will just cfeate another one, maybe even much more violent.

Thailand is heading towards real disaster unless Yingluck steps in and calls PTP to stop the nonsense they are currently pursuing. Abhisit should do the same with Suthep, but that will never happen, because Abhisit doesn't have a clue either. Strangely enough, only a stronger Yingluck in my opinion can avoid Thailand going totally down. And I definitely do not like PTP or Red Shirts (doesn't fit me fashion-wise either).

are you mad or on something YIngluk step in. Only thing yingluk would ever step into would be prada shoes. She has no role other than to be her brothers clone which he admits and has totally no relivence to anything except as a figurehead and clever PR front for real person in charge and his followers. I e never heard such naive total nonsense as this post in my life which takes some doing given things that have come out of her and her ministers mouths. Are you so naive to believe given her record she is capable of doing anything except smile and go shopping. And I thought taksoins followers were silly naive ones but you make them all seem a beacon of intelligence knowledge and logic. I can only at your words which hopefully are ironic and not meant in any way to be taken as serious by anyone

[hellodolly]

Hoy ! It begin to smell bad as a new coup risk ! Shinawatra coup #2

When army begins to interfere that means nothing good !

They will not interfere until it reaches the nothing good point. Then let us hope it is honest men that control them.

Well I mean men that have the good of Thailand at heart.

[Sunderland]

There's been the smell of something in the air for quite a while, but it starts with 'bull'.

[DGIE]

Maj-Gen Surachart Jitjaeng is right in his call for all sides to put an end to the widening and deepening conflict in the country before it gets out of control and is too late.

Thai people and foreigners making a living here in Thailand will suffer the consequences should both parties will be uncontroled

[Dasekel]

C'mon army, get on with it then! The tension'll keep mounting and Pheua thai will put the country further down the tubes until the army inevitably have to shut down Pheua Thai- better now than later, before things turn violent, and finally put an end to all this Shinawatra nepotism and graft once and for all.

That's assuming the Army will back the "good guys". What if they back the red shirts? Impossible?? Who knows what deals have been done?

And unfortunately, putting PTP down will not end violence, it will just cfeate another one, maybe even much more violent.

Thailand is heading towards real disaster unless Yingluck steps in and calls PTP to stop the nonsense they are currently pursuing. Abhisit should do the same with Suthep, but that will never happen, because Abhisit doesn't have a clue either. Strangely enough, only a stronger Yingluck in my opinion can avoid Thailand going totally down. And I definitely do not like PTP or Red Shirts (doesn't fit me fashion-wise either).

are you mad or on something YIngluk step in. Only thing yingluk would ever step into would be prada shoes. She has no role other than to be her brothers clone which he admits and has totally no relivence to anything except as a figurehead and clever PR front for real person in charge and his followers. I e never heard such naive total nonsense as this post in my life which takes some doing given things that have come out of her and her ministers mouths. Are you so naive to believe given her record she is capable of doing anything except smile and go shopping. And I thought taksoins followers were silly naive ones but you make them all seem a beacon of intelligence knowledge and logic. I can only at your words which hopefully are ironic and not meant in any way to be taken as serious by anyone

No, there is another quick solution to the problems. YL steps down and CY takes over. All problems will disappear within 90 days.

[hellodolly]

Funny thing is, if the Army jumps in, it will make the current ongoing protest and the opposition lose its legitimacy. In other words, all the blame will be shifted to the opposition and will further the Red shirt agenda which has been warning of a coup. Suppose the army was already paid off and DOES jump in, who's to say that they were not part of a strategic plan by Mr. T? Not many people would dare think that the Army would work in the best interest of the UDD, PTP and the golf caddy.

I tend to agree with your first statement - that a military coup now would only be to increase the resentment of the poorer classes and the Reds as a whole as it will be seen as the second time the army has stepped in to curtail a democratically elected government with a poor agenda (however true either of these 'facts' may be - the operative term being 'seen') - and to store it up, under pressure, for a future re-ignition - and perhaps of a more serious nature than even 2010.

Not sure that the Army would fall so easily in bed with Mr. T though; there are some real personal issues between the two, let alone lack of trust (based on history between them - and I meant from before the 2006 coup). No love lost there. Interference with the Army may just cause that very coup - which may be bad news for the Dems too right now, but would also put back any Thaksin return (home or of his sealed money) on a long term hold. Wise move would be to give the sleeping cobra a wide berth me thinks.

I believe and have said so earlier the Army learned from their mistakes in 2006. If they come in again they will not leave the door open for the same people to come in and do it again. That was the big mistake they made in 2006 leaving the door open. There will be no more red shirts. They will be destroyed. Easy thing to do. Just take out the leaders. Most of them wear sandals because they could not learn how to tie shoes. With out high paid leaders they are hopeless.

They would this time seek out the trouble makers and deal with them. It might take a while but if they work for the good of Thailand while they are doing it people will start to see that they are on there side. Let elections be held but maintain the PM until they have been able to restore unity to the country. Their very presence in the office of PM will bring out an entirely new type of person to run for election. Money will not help them it would just end them up in jail.

Why doesn't some enterprising TV Station create a reality show where several teams would be given the chance of kidnapping Khun Thaksin and returning him to his beloved country and the people he really cares about. I'm sure if this was promoted via social media, and a favourable reward was offered, it would not only be ratings winner but would shift the attention to the core problem.

It should have English in big letters for the subtitles.

I would telll the wife no more soap operas until the show is over.

[Rich teacher]

Maybe now the Dems can form a goverment

like in 06 alt=biggrin.png width=20 height=20>

Did the Democrats form a government in 2006 ?

Can you give us a link to that history book, please

No, he got it wrong. ANUPONG formed a government in 2008 featuring the Dems & their coalition members with army guns stuck up their backsides.

If I had a child in school and you were a teacher in that school I would have him out of there so fast your head would be spinning. I want the children to have an education here in Thailand. It is teachers like you that are holding them back.

Given that you are his father I doubt he would understand the lecture anyway. And what part of my statement is it that you claim to be untrue? Easy just to make a smarmy, abusive comment, avoid the debate, & continue unabated with one's agenda isn't it Dad!

[Old Man River]

Uh-oh, I smell a coup coming on ...

I don't.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[hellodolly]

Maj-Gen Surachart Jitjaeng is right in his call for all sides to put an end to the widening and deepening conflict in the country before it gets out of control and is too late.

Thai people and foreigners making a living here in Thailand will suffer the consequences should both parties will be uncontroled

My thoughts were more along the lines of cleaned up which would of course mean a degree of control. I don't see them as having a reason to screw around with the foreigners unless they decided to get rid of the illegal ones. Id they did that I would not have a problem with it. Time could take a while as they would need a lot of new people.

Will it happen not long ago I would have said no but when they said they would not honor the Constitution Courts decision. I began to think maybe there is a good chance. They are at the point where the last thing they should do is further antagonize the population and they go and make a stupid statement like that.

I wonder if they realize how thin of ice they are standing on. Also I am wondering if the other parties that have agreed 100% with every thing they have done are starting to rethink there position.

[dru2]

The army keep on not liking those that the people have voted for by massive majority - funny that.

There was no massive majority, you are misinformed.

[wolf5370]

Funny thing is, if the Army jumps in, it will make the current ongoing protest and the opposition lose its legitimacy. In other words, all the blame will be shifted to the opposition and will further the Red shirt agenda which has been warning of a coup. Suppose the army was already paid off and DOES jump in, who's to say that they were not part of a strategic plan by Mr. T? Not many people would dare think that the Army would work in the best interest of the UDD, PTP and the golf caddy.

I tend to agree with your first statement - that a military coup now would only be to increase the resentment of the poorer classes and the Reds as a whole as it will be seen as the second time the army has stepped in to curtail a democratically elected government with a poor agenda (however true either of these 'facts' may be - the operative term being 'seen') - and to store it up, under pressure, for a future re-ignition - and perhaps of a more serious nature than even 2010.

Not sure that the Army would fall so easily in bed with Mr. T though; there are some real personal issues between the two, let alone lack of trust (based on history between them - and I meant from before the 2006 coup). No love lost there. Interference with the Army may just cause that very coup - which may be bad news for the Dems too right now, but would also put back any Thaksin return (home or of his sealed money) on a long term hold. Wise move would be to give the sleeping cobra a wide berth me thinks.

I believe and have said so earlier the Army learned from their mistakes in 2006. If they come in again they will not leave the door open for the same people to come in and do it again. That was the big mistake they made in 2006 leaving the door open. There will be no more red shirts. They will be destroyed. Easy thing to do. Just take out the leaders. Most of them wear sandals because they could not learn how to tie shoes. With out high paid leaders they are hopeless.

They would this time seek out the trouble makers and deal with them. It might take a while but if they work for the good of Thailand while they are doing it people will start to see that they are on there side. Let elections be held but maintain the PM until they have been able to restore unity to the country. Their very presence in the office of PM will bring out an entirely new type of person to run for election. Money will not help them it would just end them up in jail.

Why doesn't some enterprising TV Station create a reality show where several teams would be given the chance of kidnapping Khun Thaksin and returning him to his beloved country and the people he really cares about. I'm sure if this was promoted via social media, and a favourable reward was offered, it would not only be ratings winner but would shift the attention to the core problem.

It should have English in big letters for the subtitles.

I would telll the wife no more soap operas until the show is over.

A frightening scenario HD! When military governments start killing ex-judicially, it smack of fascism (or the other extreme too I suppose) - they are then hard to get rid of. I hope they have learned their lesson (they have made the same mistake many times since constitutional monarchy - lots to learn from) and stay out of it until there is no other option. The world is a smaller place now, there are other concerned nations out there that may have enough invested interest (China perhaps) to help ensure that things don't go to absolute anarchy - if that is even possible.

Living in CM, maybe a nice vote for independence is called for. Split Lanna (co-joined with Issan) back away and leave the old guard in BKK to fight over the borrowed spoils coming their way (they can have everything below lampang) - and we will sit back and sell them the rice and rubber they need it.

[dru2]

Given that you are his father I doubt he would understand the lecture anyway. And what part of my statement is it that you claim to be untrue? Easy just to make a smarmy, abusive comment, avoid the debate, & continue unabated with one's agenda isn't it Dad!

Go away, Rich Teacher - you are tedious, uninformed, impolite and obviously very wet behind the ears.

[hellodolly]

No, he got it wrong. ANUPONG formed a government in 2008 featuring the Dems & their coalition members with army guns stuck up their backsides.

If I had a child in school and you were a teacher in that school I would have him out of there so fast your head would be spinning. I want the children to have an education here in Thailand. It is teachers like you that are holding them back.

Given that you are his father I doubt he would understand the lecture anyway. And what part of my statement is it that you claim to be untrue? Easy just to make a smarmy, abusive comment, avoid the debate, & continue unabated with one's agenda isn't it Dad!

You say

No, he got it wrong. ANUPONG formed a government in 2008 featuring the Dems & their coalition members with army guns stuck up their backsides.

A real piece of imaginary day dreaming. Of course they would not understand it.

What you don't seem to understand is kid's go to school to learn. Not to hear flights of fantasy.

Also lecturing is not how you are supposed to teach. That is part of the problem with you wannabe teachers you think you have taught them some thing by lecturing. Of course you have not taught them one little bit of how to reason and use logic. You are just perpetuating the system that has kept them from being creative through the use of their mind. Not from some rambling lecture that is based on the lack of knowledge of the person giving it.

You been away a while been on holiday?

[wolf5370]

There's been the smell of something in the air for quite a while, but it starts with 'bull'.

Bullet?

[Time Traveller]

The military does not understand the concept of diversity or difference of political views.

[hellodolly]

A frightening scenario HD! When military governments start killing ex-judicially, it smack of fascism (or the other extreme too I suppose) - they are then hard to get rid of. I hope they have learned their lesson (they have made the same mistake many times since constitutional monarchy - lots to learn from) and stay out of it until there is no other option. The world is a smaller place now, there are other concerned nations out there that may have enough invested interest (China perhaps) to help ensure that things don't go to absolute anarchy - if that is even possible.

Funny thing is, if the Army jumps in, it will make the current ongoing protest and the opposition lose its legitimacy. In other words, all the blame will be shifted to the opposition and will further the Red shirt agenda which has been warning of a coup. Suppose the army was already paid off and DOES jump in, who's to say that they were not part of a strategic plan by Mr. T? Not many people would dare think that the Army would work in the best interest of the UDD, PTP and the golf caddy.

I tend to agree with your first statement - that a military coup now would only be to increase the resentment of the poorer classes and the Reds as a whole as it will be seen as the second time the army has stepped in to curtail a democratically elected government with a poor agenda (however true either of these 'facts' may be - the operative term being 'seen') - and to store it up, under pressure, for a future re-ignition - and perhaps of a more serious nature than even 2010.

Not sure that the Army would fall so easily in bed with Mr. T though; there are some real personal issues between the two, let alone lack of trust (based on history between them - and I meant from before the 2006 coup). No love lost there. Interference with the Army may just cause that very coup - which may be bad news for the Dems too right now, but would also put back any Thaksin return (home or of his sealed money) on a long term hold. Wise move would be to give the sleeping cobra a wide berth me thinks.

I believe and have said so earlier the Army learned from their mistakes in 2006. If they come in again they will not leave the door open for the same people to come in and do it again. That was the big mistake they made in 2006 leaving the door open. There will be no more red shirts. They will be destroyed. Easy thing to do. Just take out the leaders. Most of them wear sandals because they could not learn how to tie shoes. With out high paid leaders they are hopeless.

They would this time seek out the trouble makers and deal with them. It might take a while but if they work for the good of Thailand while they are doing it people will start to see that they are on there side. Let elections be held but maintain the PM until they have been able to restore unity to the country. Their very presence in the office of PM will bring out an entirely new type of person to run for election. Money will not help them it would just end them up in jail.

Why doesn't some enterprising TV Station create a reality show where several teams would be given the chance of kidnapping Khun Thaksin and returning him to his beloved country and the people he really cares about. I'm sure if this was promoted via social media, and a favourable reward was offered, it would not only be ratings winner but would shift the attention to the core problem.

A frightening scenario HD! When military governments start killing ex-judicially, it smack of fascism (or the other extreme too I suppose) - they are then hard to get rid of. I hope they have learned their lesson (they have made the same mistake many times since constitutional monarchy - lots to learn from) and stay out of it until there is no other option. The world is a smaller place now, there are other concerned nations out there that may have enough invested interest (China perhaps) to help ensure that things don't go to absolute anarchy - if that is even possible.

Living in CM, maybe a nice vote for independence is called for. Split Lanna (co-joined with Issan) back away and leave the old guard in BKK to fight over the borrowed spoils coming their way (they can have everything below lampang) - and we will sit back and sell them the rice and rubber they need it.

Well I did mention several times that they would have the interests of Thailand at heart. (or as close to it as they can come) Yes it can be a frightening scene or a wonderful scene.

I said get rid of them killing ex-judicially is not the only way. That was Thaksins way and it didn't work. Permanent life time prison sentences for the main leaders and lesser for the smaller leaders and if any one tries to rally the troops up again jail them. Harsh methods but if done honestly they would be affective If the army started to improve the conditions of the people living in Thailand people would be more receptive to it.

Remember I said honest not legal there is a big difference. Some times we get into positions that are hard to get out of with out hard decisions. We are rapidly approaching that point. Watch what happens if the PTP try to carry out their proclamation that they would not accept the Constitutional courts decision.

[wolf5370]

The military does not understand the concept of diversity or difference of political views.

I think that is unfair. In a democracy, the military is pretty much bound to be apolitical. They care about their oath of allegiance to the people of the country (remembering that treason is an act against the nation - that being the people thereof - and not just the government or head of state). Preventing chaos, dictatorship, and anything else that threatens the nation is pretty much their remit - regardless of political colour.

Now if they stepped in and stopped free elections, then your point would be well made - they have not. Indeed, one could say that in 2006 it was just for the opposite reasons they mobilised then (although not as simplistic as that).

[wolf5370]

< Clipped earlier post - can be found above >

Well I did mention several times that they would have the interests of Thailand at heart. (or as close to it as they can come) Yes it can be a frightening scene or a wonderful scene.

I said get rid of them killing ex-judicially is not the only way. That was Thaksins way and it didn't work. Permanent life time prison sentences for the main leaders and lesser for the smaller leaders and if any one tries to rally the troops up again jail them. Harsh methods but if done honestly they would be affective If the army started to improve the conditions of the people living in Thailand people would be more receptive to it.

Remember I said honest not legal there is a big difference. Some times we get into positions that are hard to get out of with out hard decisions. We are rapidly approaching that point. Watch what happens if the PTP try to carry out their proclamation that they would not accept the Constitutional courts decision.

I wonder if the government does ignore the CC (SRT) ruling and change the senatorial procedures, would Royal Assent be withheld? That is a possibility I guess (although I am not sure if a procedural change goes through Royal Assent like normal laws do). If so, I wonder how that will be taken by the PTP, Reds, general populous.

MODS: I am being very careful here of rule 2.

//EDIT: Ah have to blame you HD - thinking out your post I put a fork full of Tuna Prong Rod in my cup of PG mmmm

Edited November 22, 2013 by wolf5370

[Thai at Heart]

The military does not understand the concept of diversity or difference of political views.

I think that is unfair. In a democracy, the military is pretty much bound to be apolitical. They care about their oath of allegiance to the people of the country (remembering that treason is an act against the nation - that being the people thereof - and not just the government or head of state). Preventing chaos, dictatorship, and anything else that threatens the nation is pretty much their remit - regardless of political colour.

Now if they stepped in and stopped free elections, then your point would be well made - they have not. Indeed, one could say that in 2006 it was just for the opposite reasons they mobilised then (although not as simplistic as that).

I think this statement went all wong the moment you started with "In a democracy". The Thai army is there to manipulate the democracy to the direction that it is decreed that the country should be going, and to feather it's own nest. Sometimes, Thailand needs to be pushed to free markets and reform, sometimes Thailand needs to be protective and scared of the world, sometimes Thailand needs to further it's own position in the region in the eyes of those that can tell the army what to do.

The moment that the politicians get out of whack with the way these people think the country should be going, or the politicians do not feed the army enough wonga, they get all uppity and start to machinate in the background. If the politicians ignore the army for long enough because they are too obsessed with making their own money, instead of making sure that the army and the really big people who control the army get their fair share, then the army comes out with a big stick to put the politicians back in line.

Now, in this context i am not meaning only one man, I am meaning a group of old monied extremely wealthy people who believe they have an absolute right to be protected from the vagaries of international business, and markets, and that Thailand must extend them protection from the evil nature of international business. This could be banks, it could be agribusiness, it could be oil companies, it could be land owners, it could be construction. From time to time, if a consensus is reached to believe that the buggars in government aren't really delivering enough to these businesses, then a coup shall ensue after a quick check that it's ok. Monies change hand, and the army arranges.

Thaksin was once hoping to become part of this group sitting right at the top table, but alas, he was in a new fangled industry like telecoms which needs oodles of ongoing capital, whereas all the others were just in businesses that need seed capital, protection and a lots of labour. So, he grew a bit tired and upset the apple cart and the natural order of things, and said, dam_n you lot, I am going to do it myself. And he we are today. One old and one new business group having a turf war, with the army apparently playing referee in the middle.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Thai at Heart

[wolf5370]

The military does not understand the concept of diversity or difference of political views.

I think that is unfair. In a democracy, the military is pretty much bound to be apolitical. They care about their oath of allegiance to the people of the country (remembering that treason is an act against the nation - that being the people thereof - and not just the government or head of state). Preventing chaos, dictatorship, and anything else that threatens the nation is pretty much their remit - regardless of political colour.

Now if they stepped in and stopped free elections, then your point would be well made - they have not. Indeed, one could say that in 2006 it was just for the opposite reasons they mobilised then (although not as simplistic as that).

I think this statement went all wong the moment you started with "In a democracy". The Thai army is there to manipulate the democracy to the direction that it is decreed that the country should be going, and to feather it's own nest. Sometimes, Thailand needs to be pushed to free markets and reform, sometimes Thailand needs to be protective and scared of the world, sometimes Thailand needs to further it's own position in the region in the eyes of those that can tell the army what to do.

The moment that the politicians get out of whack with the way these people think the country should be going, or the politicians do not feed the army enough wonga, they get all uppity and start to machinate in the background. If the politicians ignore the army for long enough because they are too obsessed with making their own money, instead of making sure that the army and the really big people who control the army get their fair share, then the army comes out with a big stick to put the politicians back in line.

Now, in this context i am not meaning only one man, I am meaning a group of old monied extremely wealthy people who believe they have an absolute right to be protected from the vagaries of international business, and markets, and that Thailand must extend them protection from the evil nature of international business. This could be banks, it could be agribusiness, it could be oil companies, it could be land owners, it could be construction. From time to time, if a consensus is reached to believe that the buggars in government aren't really delivering enough to these businesses, then a coup shall ensue after a quick check that it's ok. Monies change hand, and the army arranges.

Thaksin was once hoping to become part of this group sitting right at the top table, but alas, he was in a new fangled industry like telecoms which needs oodles of ongoing capital, whereas all the others were just in businesses that need seed capital, protection and a lots of labour. So, he grew a bit tired and upset the apple cart and the natural order of things, and said, dam_n you lot, I am going to do it myself. And he we are today. One old and one new business group having a turf war, with the army apparently playing referee in the middle.

I don't disagree totally with your description of the Thai Army. Take a step back however, a wider, not so Thai specific view. My point was that in ANY democracy the military should be apolitical. It should not be involved in political parties at all. Like the civil service it should follow the governorship of the government regardless of political view. This is why I differed with Time Traveller's post.

The army does act as a safety valve here and has done so many times. There may, and probably are, very selfish reasons for doing so, granted. The very act of stealing all the coffers is to cripple the income of the army, then it fore-stalls that very theft going too far. All things come to a balance because one thing pushes another - reminds me of that old rabbit and foxes economics 101 thing - too many rabbits causes fox population to explode, reduces the rabbits, foxes die, rabbits population increases again - ad infinitum. Neither is working for the other - both have very selfish motives, but one forces the other through standard market like forces. Everything tend to zero (balance).

As yet I have not seen that political change has been a trigger for the Army to move in - of course we have not seen a real threat to the old guard either (we could say 2006 was that threat, but there were many other reasons for the coup in the Army's eyes - Thaksin was a tinkerer and upset many in the Army with his open nepotism and irregular super-promotions, and the threats that were coming with regard to fallacious bomb plots/framings etc) - if such a threat existed (not sure it does even today) and it is a trigger, then maybe a coup could be on the cards.

These old money, old guard, families will make money whatever happens as long as they know what is coming. I don't think the PTP are much of a threat, and in real terms I think they are making money hand over fist and will remain doing so as loans come in, projects are built, and governments change. Feudal Chinese ideology - long term thinking - I think that was Thaksin's real mistake - rushing in and trampling the competition (i.e. those at the table/trough alongside him - that put him there). I think he did have a seat at that table - but wanted more and now and made too much of a splash doing it. He started to be a risk - and when he refused to go - they chopped his feet off. Feudal.

This makes we think you are quite correct that for real change to occur here the military must be stymied - unless that change also profits the old guard too (assuming one directly influences the other). Or unless the change directly profits the generals and as such damages those links to the old guard.

[hellodolly]

< Clipped earlier post - can be found above >

Well I did mention several times that they would have the interests of Thailand at heart. (or as close to it as they can come) Yes it can be a frightening scene or a wonderful scene.

I said get rid of them killing ex-judicially is not the only way. That was Thaksins way and it didn't work. Permanent life time prison sentences for the main leaders and lesser for the smaller leaders and if any one tries to rally the troops up again jail them. Harsh methods but if done honestly they would be affective If the army started to improve the conditions of the people living in Thailand people would be more receptive to it.

Remember I said honest not legal there is a big difference. Some times we get into positions that are hard to get out of with out hard decisions. We are rapidly approaching that point. Watch what happens if the PTP try to carry out their proclamation that they would not accept the Constitutional courts decision.

I wonder if the government does ignore the CC (SRT) ruling and change the senatorial procedures, would Royal Assent be withheld? That is a possibility I guess (although I am not sure if a procedural change goes through Royal Assent like normal laws do). If so, I wonder how that will be taken by the PTP, Reds, general populous.

MODS: I am being very careful here of rule 2.

//EDIT: Ah have to blame you HD - thinking out your post I put a fork full of Tuna Prong Rod in my cup of PG mmmm

Your welcome no problem.

I believe it does have to be OK by the king.

I can see big problems there no matter which way it went. It would be best if the PTP just dropped it.

For my self I believe in an elected one but that is just a remnant of my U S bringing up. I see danger in both ways. No problem electing if they could ever manage to get a honest election. There in lies the problem.

In the states there is one Representative from a certain amount of people also figuring in the location. This is supposed to give every one equal representation. In the Senate there is two Senators from every state. This is supposed to give each state equal representation.

Not sure how they divide who is appointed and who is not here.

[Roadman]

The military does not understand the concept of diversity or difference of political views.

I think that is unfair. In a democracy, the military is pretty much bound to be apolitical. They care about their oath of allegiance to the people of the country (remembering that treason is an act against the nation - that being the people thereof - and not just the government or head of state). Preventing chaos, dictatorship, and anything else that threatens the nation is pretty much their remit - regardless of political colour.

Now if they stepped in and stopped free elections, then your point would be well made - they have not. Indeed, one could say that in 2006 it was just for the opposite reasons they mobilised then (although not as simplistic as that).

I think this statement went all wong the moment you started with "In a democracy". The Thai army is there to manipulate the democracy to the direction that it is decreed that the country should be going, and to feather it's own nest. Sometimes, Thailand needs to be pushed to free markets and reform, sometimes Thailand needs to be protective and scared of the world, sometimes Thailand needs to further it's own position in the region in the eyes of those that can tell the army what to do.

The moment that the politicians get out of whack with the way these people think the country should be going, or the politicians do not feed the army enough wonga, they get all uppity and start to machinate in the background. If the politicians ignore the army for long enough because they are too obsessed with making their own money, instead of making sure that the army and the really big people who control the army get their fair share, then the army comes out with a big stick to put the politicians back in line.

Now, in this context i am not meaning only one man, I am meaning a group of old monied extremely wealthy people who believe they have an absolute right to be protected from the vagaries of international business, and markets, and that Thailand must extend them protection from the evil nature of international business. This could be banks, it could be agribusiness, it could be oil companies, it could be land owners, it could be construction. From time to time, if a consensus is reached to believe that the buggars in government aren't really delivering enough to these businesses, then a coup shall ensue after a quick check that it's ok. Monies change hand, and the army arranges.

Thaksin was once hoping to become part of this group sitting right at the top table, but alas, he was in a new fangled industry like telecoms which needs oodles of ongoing capital, whereas all the others were just in businesses that need seed capital, protection and a lots of labour. So, he grew a bit tired and upset the apple cart and the natural order of things, and said, dam_n you lot, I am going to do it myself. And he we are today. One old and one new business group having a turf war, with the army apparently playing referee in the middle.

I don't disagree totally with your description of the Thai Army. Take a step back however, a wider, not so Thai specific view. My point was that in ANY democracy the military should be apolitical. It should not be involved in political parties at all. Like the civil service it should follow the governorship of the government regardless of political view. This is why I differed with Time Traveller's post.

The army does act as a safety valve here and has done so many times. There may, and probably are, very selfish reasons for doing so, granted. The very act of stealing all the coffers is to cripple the income of the army, then it fore-stalls that very theft going too far. All things come to a balance because one thing pushes another - reminds me of that old rabbit and foxes economics 101 thing - too many rabbits causes fox population to explode, reduces the rabbits, foxes die, rabbits population increases again - ad infinitum. Neither is working for the other - both have very selfish motives, but one forces the other through standard market like forces. Everything tend to zero (balance).

As yet I have not seen that political change has been a trigger for the Army to move in - of course we have not seen a real threat to the old guard either (we could say 2006 was that threat, but there were many other reasons for the coup in the Army's eyes - Thaksin was a tinkerer and upset many in the Army with his open nepotism and irregular super-promotions, and the threats that were coming with regard to fallacious bomb plots/framings etc) - if such a threat existed (not sure it does even today) and it is a trigger, then maybe a coup could be on the cards.

These old money, old guard, families will make money whatever happens as long as they know what is coming. I don't think the PTP are much of a threat, and in real terms I think they are making money hand over fist and will remain doing so as loans come in, projects are built, and governments change. Feudal Chinese ideology - long term thinking - I think that was Thaksin's real mistake - rushing in and trampling the competition (i.e. those at the table/trough alongside him - that put him there). I think he did have a seat at that table - but wanted more and now and made too much of a splash doing it. He started to be a risk - and when he refused to go - they chopped his feet off. Feudal.

This makes we think you are quite correct that for real change to occur here the military must be stymied - unless that change also profits the old guard too (assuming one directly influences the other). Or unless the change directly profits the generals and as such damages those links to the old guard.

I actually disagree that the Army should be stymied for real change to occur as that is completely arse about face and agrees to the flawed logical that is constantly displayed on this site with the Army is there to serve in a democracy, when Thailand, and especially right now under the Thaksin dictatorial power grab has never been a democracy or a model even close to a western democracy. It is a Constitutional Monarchy in transition to a democracy and as such the Army is and will continue to be the final adjudicator until such time as these corrupt scum that bear the name of Thai politicians can actually start serving the people as the Army and their masters want them to. I also think people are reading to much into the whole old guard and Army clap trap. If one cared to look objectively at the last 10 years the Army and especially their senior leadership have been very obvious of what their intention for Thailand is, and that is for it to be moving towards the path of a functional democracy.

If Thailand was able to ride out the current Shinawatra dictatorial power grab and find its own path closer to democracy through people power and the courts then the Army will through that process gradually come under the control of a democratic government. And everything I am seeing from the Army including their current staying out of it even as Thailand is being economically taken to the cleaners by the Shinawatra thieves has been showing that.

I actually agree with the path that HulloDolly was on in that if the people's protection being their voice of protest and the courts are bypassed by Thaksin then the Army should step in again and this time have a proper clean up with that clean up area to include Dubai and stay in charge longer.

As to the OP subject. It does not matter who it is from and for who's gain it could be considered for. Point is it should be taken on board by all including Thaksin and the village idiot Suthep as the best democratic solution for Thailand even with economic disaster attached would be if the Shinawatra mafia and all other pretentious scum like them can be removed by the ballot and not the gun.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Roadman

[wolf5370]

I actually disagree that the Army should be stymied for real change to occur as that is completely arse about face and agrees to the flawed logical that is constantly displayed on this site with the Army is there to serve in a democracy, when Thailand, and especially right now under the Thaksin dictatorial power grab has never been a democracy or a model even close to a western democracy. It is a Constitutional Monarchy in transition to a democracy and as such the Army is and will continue to be the final adjudicator until such time as these corrupt scum that bear the name of Thai politicians can actually start serving the people as the Army and their masters want them to. I also think people are reading to much into the whole old guard and Army clap trap. If one cared to look objectively at the last 10 years the Army and especially their senior leadership have been very obvious of what their intention for Thailand is, and that is for it to be moving towards the path of a functional democracy.

If Thailand was able to ride out the current Shinawatra dictatorial power grab and find its own path closer to democracy through people power and the courts then the Army will through that process gradually come under the control of a democratic government. And everything I am seeing from the Army including their current staying out of it even as Thailand is being economically taken to the cleaners by the Shinawatra thieves has been showing that.

I actually agree with the path that HulloDolly was on in that if the people's protection being their voice of protest and the courts are bypassed by Thaksin then the Army should step in again and this time have a proper clean up with that clean up area to include Dubai and stay in charge longer.

As to the OP subject. It does not matter who it is from and for who's gain it could be considered for. Point is it should be taken on board by all including Thaksin and the village idiot Suthep as the best democratic solution for Thailand even with economic disaster attached would be if the Shinawatra mafia and all other pretentious scum like them can be removed by the ballot and not the gun.

Roadman - a constitutional democracy IS a democracy - many countries have this model, including the UK. The originators of democracy and the nation that spread it across the globe (Greece and Rome) also had similar models (even if they called themselves republics at times).

Do you not see the inherent danger of allowing the military to cease power and stay there for an excessive amount of time? Let alone performing a "clean up". I can think of few times in history where such things have ever ended as well intentioned as they began. I think the Army has been that release valve, the final arbiter, but reluctantly - I hope it stays that way! I honestly do not know how much sway the "old guard" (for want of a better descriptor) has with the military here - much suggestion has been made - but doubt anyone does really (including the old-guard - otherwise they would have made earlier use of it me thinks). IF the OG does have the military pull, then of course the military would need to be stymied to oppose them. However, that wasn't really what I meant.

I really was trying to suggest was that (and double so as no one knows just how close the OG are with the military) the way for change is one that does not directly challenge the powerbase (OG) - this is feasible because there is a lot to be gained by opening up - which is starting to happen in fits and starts. The PTP is killing itself. The Reds are probably going to fatally split into "TRT - Try Return Thaksin" and "PPP - Peasant Pleasing Policies" (see what I did there ) with the former fizzing away and the latter hanging on to power for a decade or so. This will likely cause many changes anyway - especially as the TRT fade more camps will feel able to come over - probably left wing and student based groups - a new leader may emerge without the baggage and with an IQ above a chimp/ounce or two of integrity and charisma. If new leadership can show the OG that it is not a threat and not too greedy (unlike Thaksin) then things may well move to becoming a real democracy (a constitutional democracy still of course). Too think the Old Guard does not exist, or does not matter, is a mistake - at least for the foreseeable future.

[Rich teacher]

No, he got it wrong. ANUPONG formed a government in 2008 featuring the Dems & their coalition members with army guns stuck up their backsides.

If I had a child in school and you were a teacher in that school I would have him out of there so fast your head would be spinning. I want the children to have an education here in Thailand. It is teachers like you that are holding them back.

Given that you are his father I doubt he would understand the lecture anyway. And what part of my statement is it that you claim to be untrue? Easy just to make a smarmy, abusive comment, avoid the debate, & continue unabated with one's agenda isn't it Dad!

You say

No, he got it wrong. ANUPONG formed a government in 2008 featuring the Dems & their coalition members with army guns stuck up their backsides.

A real piece of imaginary day dreaming. Of course they would not understand it.

What you don't seem to understand is kid's go to school to learn. Not to hear flights of fantasy.

Also lecturing is not how you are supposed to teach. That is part of the problem with you wannabe teachers you think you have taught them some thing by lecturing. Of course you have not taught them one little bit of how to reason and use logic. You are just perpetuating the system that has kept them from being creative through the use of their mind. Not from some rambling lecture that is based on the lack of knowledge of the person giving it.

You been away a while been on holiday?

OK, some teaching. When trying to debate please address the topic and attempt to make some valid points. You haven't addressed my statement or made any valid points relating to the topic. This isn't about pedagogy.

[Bpuumike]

Is that a warning?

A pretty obvious one I would say.

To be fair, he is verbally banging heads and telling them to get their act together. Or else...

[Bpuumike]

I actually disagree that the Army should be stymied for real change to occur as that is completely arse about face and agrees to the flawed logical that is constantly displayed on this site with the Army is there to serve in a democracy, when Thailand, and especially right now under the Thaksin dictatorial power grab has never been a democracy or a model even close to a western democracy. It is a Constitutional Monarchy in transition to a democracy and as such the Army is and will continue to be the final adjudicator until such time as these corrupt scum that bear the name of Thai politicians can actually start serving the people as the Army and their masters want them to. I also think people are reading to much into the whole old guard and Army clap trap. If one cared to look objectively at the last 10 years the Army and especially their senior leadership have been very obvious of what their intention for Thailand is, and that is for it to be moving towards the path of a functional democracy.

If Thailand was able to ride out the current Shinawatra dictatorial power grab and find its own path closer to democracy through people power and the courts then the Army will through that process gradually come under the control of a democratic government. And everything I am seeing from the Army including their current staying out of it even as Thailand is being economically taken to the cleaners by the Shinawatra thieves has been showing that.

I actually agree with the path that HulloDolly was on in that if the people's protection being their voice of protest and the courts are bypassed by Thaksin then the Army should step in again and this time have a proper clean up with that clean up area to include Dubai and stay in charge longer.

As to the OP subject. It does not matter who it is from and for who's gain it could be considered for. Point is it should be taken on board by all including Thaksin and the village idiot Suthep as the best democratic solution for Thailand even with economic disaster attached would be if the Shinawatra mafia and all other pretentious scum like them can be removed by the ballot and not the gun.

Roadman - a constitutional democracy IS a democracy - many countries have this model, including the UK. The originators of democracy and the nation that spread it across the globe (Greece and Rome) also had similar models (even if they called themselves republics at times).

Do you not see the inherent danger of allowing the military to cease power and stay there for an excessive amount of time? Let alone performing a "clean up". I can think of few times in history where such things have ever ended as well intentioned as they began. I think the Army has been that release valve, the final arbiter, but reluctantly - I hope it stays that way! I honestly do not know how much sway the "old guard" (for want of a better descriptor) has with the military here - much suggestion has been made - but doubt anyone does really (including the old-guard - otherwise they would have made earlier use of it me thinks). IF the OG does have the military pull, then of course the military would need to be stymied to oppose them. However, that wasn't really what I meant.

I really was trying to suggest was that (and double so as no one knows just how close the OG are with the military) the way for change is one that does not directly challenge the powerbase (OG) - this is feasible because there is a lot to be gained by opening up - which is starting to happen in fits and starts. The PTP is killing itself. The Reds are probably going to fatally split into "TRT - Try Return Thaksin" and "PPP - Peasant Pleasing Policies" (see what I did there ) with the former fizzing away and the latter hanging on to power for a decade or so. This will likely cause many changes anyway - especially as the TRT fade more camps will feel able to come over - probably left wing and student based groups - a new leader may emerge without the baggage and with an IQ above a chimp/ounce or two of integrity and charisma. If new leadership can show the OG that it is not a threat and not too greedy (unlike Thaksin) then things may well move to becoming a real democracy (a constitutional democracy still of course). Too think the Old Guard does not exist, or does not matter, is a mistake - at least for the foreseeable future.

Good comments except for one point. The UK does not have a Constitution.

[fareastguy]

Then the present government should lead from the front and set an example to the people.

Instead it has used the "Red" population to get into power, then rewarded those in favour with positions instead of those with the ability to do the required job of running a country.

Over the last two years it has time and again abused it's power to reward itself, used the disharmony of the people for it's own purposes, even stoked the divide to ensure peace does not return.

At every opportunity it has tried to deal a mortal blow to the opposition to guarantee it's own future instead of governing the country.

It has used populist policies to keep the votes in it's back pocket, even when the policies fly in the face of what is really needed.

It has cost Thailand billions in the rice pledging scheme, and failed flood defense scheme, and now as a last ditch effort to fill the coffers again it is trying desperately to push through a "mega infrastructure" scheme without the appropriate transparency & accountability.

But all the time it has tried every way possible to push through any which way it can an amnesty bill to get Thaksin back home and into power again, as a last twist it had to make a veiled concession to give amnesty to all, but this wasn't what the "Reds" wanted and scored an own goal by dividing it's own loyal supporters who have been holding out for all or nothing.

The Shin dynasty has done what all dynasties do eventually, shown it's true colours for all to see, it has stepped over the line & even the most ardent follower is now considering just what will the Shin's do next.

The country is in the hands of the government and it is the only party that can determine where it will all end, the opposition can only highlight what they are trying to do and try to show the common people that it's time the corruption & false leadership should go.

This government will never step down, as that would be a fatal mistake, it would lose it's foothold on power & the people, but most of all it will lose face.

If it won't step down then the people may well have to rise up in the streets to oust the Shins & her corrupt followers one way or another.

But whether it's push or shove will depend on the Shin dynasty!

[Curt1591]

This thread, along with most threads on TV News Forum, pretty much illustrates the point made in the statement.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Curt1591

[PeVee1st]

Very few in this country follow the rule of law, those who have money consider themselves above the law and able to pervert the courts rulings.

The poor submit to rule because they have no money.

The military will enforce rule when required by the big families, when the "profits" decline, until then it will be a case of "let them eat cake".

[whybother]

Maybe now the Dems can form a goverment  

 

like in 06   

The Democrats weren't in government in 06.

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