UK Visa type to allow frequent and lengthy visits

[NSCR]

I am looking for a visa category that I would have a reasonable chance of getting for my wife, which would allow for frequent (several times a year) and lengthy (anything from 1 to 4 months at a time) to the UK. We are both resident in Thailand on retirement visas (hers is as my dependent), I am a UK citizen by birth, she is Filipina. My parents are both elderly and in failing help, and despite not being resident in the UK for 40 years, I find I am having to spend more and more time there to take care of their affairs. Looks like I will be doing this until they are admitted to full time care or they pass away. It would be nice to have my wife there when I am in the UK.

She was recently refused a General Visitor visa (despite visiting the UK on 2 previous visas) because she was deemed to be intending to "live in the UK by using frequent and lengthy visits and avoid settlement requirements", and also didn't show "sufficient ties to her home country to guarantee she would leave the UK". We were aware of this, and the general 6 months in any 12 requirement, although the UK Border website says this requirement does not exist, it seems to be defacto. There are no written guidelines to how often and for how long visits can be made under a VAF1A visa. Based on her previous travel history, we had applied for a 2 year multiple entry visitor visa, and the refusal notice implies that we didn't understand that the visa was for a maximum 6 month visits, for a period of 2 years, and that we intended living in the UK for 2 years! Which wasn't the case.

I have looked at getting her a Partner Visa as a spouse (VAF4A), but two of the requirements are

1) I be “present and settled in the UK” or “is coming here with, or to join the applicant and intends to make the UK their home with the applicant, if the application is successful”.

and

2) have the "Intention to live together permanently together in the UK"

I am not, and don't really have any intention to become, a resident in the UK again (although I realise by spending time there I could be classified as a resident, and obviously as a citizen I have right of UK residence). We will not stay in the UK once my parents affairs are resolved.

So it appears to me, that she falls in between these two visa categories, wanting to visit more often and for more time to be granted a Visitor visa, and yet by not intending to be resident, then can not get a Spouse visa. Probably not a very common situation to be in. Any advice on which visa category would be most suitable and likely to be successful would be appreciated. Would it be worth making an application and quoting extenuating circumstances or compassionate grounds based on my parents situation.

I believe we can fulfill all the requirements of both visa types, although convincing a ECO to our "intent" might be more difficult. I believed getting married would make things easier visa-wise, it certainly did for the Thai visa, obviously not for the UK.

I'll list other pertinent facts here in the initial post.

We have lived together in several countries since 2009.

Married in 2013.

Both have Thai retirement visas.

No children.

She doesn't have a job, study full-time, nor own property etc.

She speaks good English so passing a test won't present a problem.

She has had tourist visas for the UK (2) and Australia (2) and has also visited Hong Kong, Singapore and many other countries with me. No immigration violations.

I have in excess of the 62,500 savings required for the settlement visa.

I own a property in the UK, nothing in Thailand.

I have not been resident in the UK since 1975.

I am retired.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

[7by7]

The only way to achieve what you want without her actually applying for settlement is visit visas; either applying for a standard 6 month one every time or applying for a longer term one.

With regard to her recent refusal; this is the second time such a refusal has come up on the forum; see UK visa "6 in 12" rule. Have the goalposts moved ?

I am assuming that your wife is in a similar position; i.e. not spent more than 6 months at any one time in the UK as a visitor and not spent more than 6 months out of 12 in the UK as a visitor (the latter is not an actual rule; but a visitor would have problems obtaining another visit visa or being admitted to the UK had they done so, or would do so).

You will see from this post that the applicant in that case was successful in having the refusal overturned.

I suggest that you try the same.

[NSCR]

The only way to achieve what you want without her actually applying for settlement is visit visas; either applying for a standard 6 month one every time or applying for a longer term one.

With regard to her recent refusal; this is the second time such a refusal has come up on the forum; see UK visa "6 in 12" rule. Have the goalposts moved ?

I am assuming that your wife is in a similar position; i.e. not spent more than 6 months at any one time in the UK as a visitor and not spent more than 6 months out of 12 in the UK as a visitor (the latter is not an actual rule; but a visitor would have problems obtaining another visit visa or being admitted to the UK had they done so, or would do so).

You will see from this post that the applicant in that case was successful in having the refusal overturned.

I suggest that you try the same.

Thanks for the response. To be honest I (mistakenly) assumed that having a proven record of visits demonstrating that she wasn't an economic visitor (never worked or violated her visas), and now being married, a visitor visa would be a formality. Obviously not the case. But having read the immigration guidelines on the UKBorder website, I see nothing related to frequent visitor guidelines. They state that the 6 in 12 doesn't exist, but it would be nice if they said (for example) that one cannot reapply before 6 months after last departing the last tourist visa. Or, they would only approve a visa for the length that wouldn't exceed the 6 in 12 (ie maybe only issue a 3 mth visa). Obviously applying for a 2 year multi-entry visitor visa wasn't acceptable in their opinion.

I found the whole visa application process very frustrating. We had made plans to travel, and the shock of a visa refusal only days before departure not only caused considerable distress, ruined holiday plans, but also resulted in considerable expense (tickets already having been bought to prove a RT ticket). There was also the frustration of being unable to talk to anyone. No interview is scheduled to clarify any doubts the ECO may have, just the refusal notice. Then it is impossible to ask questions of the VFS (we don't make the decisions, you have to contact the Embassy) or the embassy (send your concerns to the VFS website, we don't talk to the public - the same website that took 3 weeks to respond to a previous enquiry).

To be fair, after spending all morning on the phone, I was finally given a British Consulate e-mail to address my concerns, which resulted in a reply the next day. I suppose a review was done, and the original decision was upheld (whether this was formal or not I don't know). The recommendation was to address all the concerns in the refusal notice and reapply. I note that there is no right of appeal for visitor visas. However, after reading all the documentation I was pointed to, I don't see any clear guidelines for what I am trying to do. Hence the posting here.

As far as your suggestion of following the appeal as in the other post you linked, I am sceptical of a favourable outcome, and prefer to take the advice of applying again but addressing the concerns highlighted in the refusal note. However, I don't want to risk another refusal, and would like to make sure I apply for the correct visa (visitor or spouse), particularly due to the time and expense of each application. Given my/our circumstances I can't believe that my wife represents a risk to the immigration situation in the UK, but I am at the mercy of a junior diplomat who was refuse visas ad infinitum quoting section 42.1 paragraph 3.11 subsection 2.6

I originally thought we would wait 6 months from the last departure from the UK before applying for another visitor visa. But I can also see the benefits of applying for a spouse visa, but not sure if our situation qualifies.

[7by7]

NSCR,

From your OP, the concerns of the ECO in your wife's refusal seem to be identical to those of the ECO in the other case I linked to. In which case the only way to address those concerns is to wait for some time to elapse until she applies again. How much time; that seems to be a lottery at the moment!

But, of course, cannot say for sure without seeing the refusal notice. If you do want to post it remember to remove all names and identifying information.

You are correct that the government have removed the right of appeal for family visit visas ( mainly because too many appeals were being allowed!).

However, there is nothing to stop you or you wife from following the same path as the applicant in the other case. Remember the mere threat of a Judicial Review was enough to make the ECOs in Bangkok back down and issue the visa.

BTW, there is no 'clamp down' on people using visit visas to 'live' in the UK for half the year. Doing so is not against the immigration rules and any such 'clamp down' would require a change to those rules first.

[NSCR]

Thanks for your advice. I too would think there should be no reasonable basis for a refusal. But the last refusal has made me cautious. I have a few follow-up questions.

1) It occurs to me that I can state that it is my intention to return to the UK and resume residence there, and therefore require a spousal visa for my wife. We can then live there until my parents pass, and then return to our former life in Thailand. Nobody the wiser, except all my previous sponsor letters have stated that I(we) have no intention of returning to the UK to take up residence. Are these still kept on file? I suppose I can always claim a change of heart due to the visa refusal of my wife, thereby fulfilling the requirement to be present and planning on living in the UK.

2) I am unclear as to whether we have to provide documentation prove we have lived together for x period. We only married 4 months ago, although have lived together for 4 years. I have seen posts that a spouse is not required to prove a relationship exists, particularly if she has been in the UK. My wife accompanied me on two previous trips to the UK, where I provided documentation of our relationship as her sponsor. But are these kept on file?

3) Am I correct is assuming that a wife doesn't have to demonstrate a tie to her home country (job, studies, property, family) if applying for a spouse visa. Presumably her life is dictated by her relationship to her husband, and not these other factors.As long as I can demonstrate sufficient funding.

Thanks for your help (sorry about the previous reply without any content from me - pressed the wrong key).

[Jay Sata]

The OP stated..

I'll list other pertinent facts here in the initial post.

We have lived together in several countries since 2009.

Married in 2013.

Both have Thai retirement visas.

No children.

She doesn't have a job, study full-time, nor own property etc.

She speaks good English so passing a test won't present a problem.

She has had tourist visas for the UK (2) and Australia (2) and has also visited Hong Kong, Singapore and many other countries with me. No immigration violations.

I have in excess of the 62,500 savings required for the settlement visa.

I own a property in the UK, nothing in Thailand.

I have not been resident in the UK since 1975.

I am retired.

So he passes the test for bringing his wife to the UK. Why would he want to mess around with appeals?

Better he just get's an agent to file the papers in Manila and pays the fee?

Unlike most people on here with problems he has all the numbers to tick the boxes and is free to sail through the immigration requirements.

His intentions are honest and genuine so I see absolutely no reason for refusal.

However his wife has been refused because they have applied for the wrong visa and the ECO cannot change the application.

As for questioning my information regarding the move to restrict the time limit to 90 days let's just say watch this space.

The UK is the only part of the EU where tourist visas are issued for 180 days.

[7by7]

NSCR,

She can apply for a spouse visa if you wish; but why should she when she just wants to visit.

The fee is much higher.

She will need to take and pass an English exam.

She will need to TB test.

You will need to prove that you meet the financial requirement.

But to answer your questions:-

1) Yes, they will be on file but it doesn't matter. Simply say that due to changing circumstances you now want to live in the UK.

2) Spouses do have to prove the relationship is genuine; so any evidence you have of this going back before your marriage will be useful.

3) Correct. If applying to settle in the UK there is no need for a reason to return to one's home country or current country of residence.

For the full details; see UK settlement visa basics and the links from there.

MR. Sata, the OP says he and his wife live in Thailand, not the Philippines.

His wife wants to visit, so a visit visa is the correct one. A settlement visa is to live in the UK; she doesn't want to live in the UK, only visit periodically.

And I will watch this space, but I doubt we will hear any more from you on the subject when it doesn't happen; like every other time you have been proven wrong.

[Jay Sata]

I appreciate they live in Thailand but his wife is Filipino and speaks good English.

<snip>

You don't have to live in the UK 24/7 for 52 weeks a year to get the required paperwork to come and go.

I don't think the OP is looking for a cheap solution regarding the fee but want's to come back to the UK on a flexible basis to takes care of his aging parents.

I'd suggest a good reliable visa agent if you don't want to do the paperwork yourself.

.

<snip>

[7by7]

Not every one from the Philippines speaks good English; though many do. She will still have to take the English speaking and listening test for a settlement visa, though, as The Philippines is not on the list of majority English speaking countries whose nationals don't.

Yet again you are showing a complete ignorance of the UK immigration rules and procedures; surprising considering your claimed connections!

Applicants for a UK visa must submit their application in their country of residence, which is not necessarily their country of nationality. As she lives in Thailand, she submits her application in Thailand.

She could go to Manila and submit her application there saying she had moved back to the Philippines; but why do that when she can submit in Bangkok?

Now, you've had your say, I've had mine.

Can we know leave it up to the OP to decide what to do?

[Jay Sata]

Hi NSCR

Have you considered a long term multi entry visa?

Given your family commitments this is probably you best bet.

Take a look at this.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/visas-immigration/visiting/general/apply/

A long-term visit visa is valid for 1, 2, 5 or 10 years. The application fee is higher than for a short-term visit visa.

If we grant you a long-term visit visa, you are allowed unlimited entry into the UK for the time that the visa is valid, but for a maximum of 6 months for each visit.

We recommend that you limit your stay to the period stated on your visa application. If you spend long periods in the UK as a visitor, our officers may doubt your intentions.

If you breach the conditions of your entry to the UK, we may ban you from returning for up to 10 years.

If you apply for a long-term visit visa, we consider:

• whether you can show a frequent and sustained need to come to the UK (such as family links or an established business connection);
• whether your personal circumstances are likely to change significantly while the visa is valid - so you should give us as much evidence as possible that your circumstances will remain the same;
• whether you have shown that you can support yourself in the UK without public funds, and that you intend to leave the UK at the end of each visit; and
• your previous travel history as shown in a current valid passport.

You should think carefully before applying for a long-term visit visa. We may refuse the visa or issue it for a shorter period than you have applied for (if, for example, the evidence that you provide does not support a long-term visit visa application, or does not meet the visa requirements). If we refuse the application or issue the visa for a shorter period, we will not refund your application fee.

If you have not applied for a UK visa before, we advise that you should consider applying for a short-term visit visa first.

Best wishes and good luck.

[theoldgit]

A number of comments containing arguments and/or incorrect advice have been removed. The guy has come here for advice, not to be bombarded with constant bickering, please give it a rest.

OP, as has been pointed out you could go for either a Settlement Visa, expensive and not what you really want, or could carry on attempting for a visit visa.

Yes, your wife could still apply for a longer term visit visa, but given the recent refusals and administrative review this might not be granted on the current level of evidence.

I would suggest that you might want to seek the view of an agent here in Thailand, maybe this sites sponsor thaivisaexpress who is very experienced, reliable and will give you an opinion as to the best course of action.

[nonthaburial]

Hi NSCR

Have you considered a long term multi entry visa?

Given your family commitments this is probably you best bet.

Take a look at this.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/visas-immigration/visiting/general/apply/

A long-term visit visa is valid for 1, 2, 5 or 10 years. The application fee is higher than for a short-term visit visa.

If we grant you a long-term visit visa, you are allowed unlimited entry into the UK for the time that the visa is valid, but for a maximum of 6 months for each visit.

We recommend that you limit your stay to the period stated on your visa application. If you spend long periods in the UK as a visitor, our officers may doubt your intentions.

If you breach the conditions of your entry to the UK, we may ban you from returning for up to 10 years.

If you apply for a long-term visit visa, we consider:

• whether you can show a frequent and sustained need to come to the UK (such as family links or an established business connection);
• whether your personal circumstances are likely to change significantly while the visa is valid - so you should give us as much evidence as possible that your circumstances will remain the same;
• whether you have shown that you can support yourself in the UK without public funds, and that you intend to leave the UK at the end of each visit; and
• your previous travel history as shown in a current valid passport.

You should think carefully before applying for a long-term visit visa. We may refuse the visa or issue it for a shorter period than you have applied for (if, for example, the evidence that you provide does not support a long-term visit visa application, or does not meet the visa requirements). If we refuse the application or issue the visa for a shorter period, we will not refund your application fee.

If you have not applied for a UK visa before, we advise that you should consider applying for a short-term visit visa first.

Best wishes and good luck.

This is exactly the visa my Chinese wife applied for, the first application she received a two year visa, and the last one (two weeks ago) she received a five year visa. The only major difference between my wife at that of the OP is that my wife is the sole agent in China for a brand of Devon Cider, however although revealing this in her application form, she did not attach any documentation to prove.

We also found it imperative to photo copy all required documentation such as marriage certs , home ownership documents etc, then submit them with the originals. VFS will then check the copies against the originals, then hand you back the originals.

What was plain sailing for us appears to be a nightmare for you. Wish you luck.

[Tony M]

The OP stated..

I'll list other pertinent facts here in the initial post.

We have lived together in several countries since 2009.

Married in 2013.

Both have Thai retirement visas.

No children.

She doesn't have a job, study full-time, nor own property etc.

She speaks good English so passing a test won't present a problem.

She has had tourist visas for the UK (2) and Australia (2) and has also visited Hong Kong, Singapore and many other countries with me. No immigration violations.

I have in excess of the 62,500 savings required for the settlement visa.

I own a property in the UK, nothing in Thailand.

I have not been resident in the UK since 1975.

I am retired.

So he passes the test for bringing his wife to the UK. Why would he want to mess around with appeals?

Better he just get's an agent to file the papers in Manila and pays the fee?

Unlike most people on here with problems he has all the numbers to tick the boxes and is free to sail through the immigration requirements.

His intentions are honest and genuine so I see absolutely no reason for refusal.

However his wife has been refused because they have applied for the wrong visa and the ECO cannot change the application.

As for questioning my information regarding the move to restrict the time limit to 90 days let's just say watch this space.

The UK is the only part of the EU where tourist visas are issued for 180 days.

They applied for the wrong visa ? Explain.

[Tony M]

Hi NSCR

Have you considered a long term multi entry visa?

Given your family commitments this is probably you best bet.

Take a look at this.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/visas-immigration/visiting/general/apply/

A long-term visit visa is valid for 1, 2, 5 or 10 years. The application fee is higher than for a short-term visit visa.

If we grant you a long-term visit visa, you are allowed unlimited entry into the UK for the time that the visa is valid, but for a maximum of 6 months for each visit.

We recommend that you limit your stay to the period stated on your visa application. If you spend long periods in the UK as a visitor, our officers may doubt your intentions.

If you breach the conditions of your entry to the UK, we may ban you from returning for up to 10 years.

If you apply for a long-term visit visa, we consider:

• whether you can show a frequent and sustained need to come to the UK (such as family links or an established business connection);
• whether your personal circumstances are likely to change significantly while the visa is valid - so you should give us as much evidence as possible that your circumstances will remain the same;
• whether you have shown that you can support yourself in the UK without public funds, and that you intend to leave the UK at the end of each visit; and
• your previous travel history as shown in a current valid passport.

You should think carefully before applying for a long-term visit visa. We may refuse the visa or issue it for a shorter period than you have applied for (if, for example, the evidence that you provide does not support a long-term visit visa application, or does not meet the visa requirements). If we refuse the application or issue the visa for a shorter period, we will not refund your application fee.

If you have not applied for a UK visa before, we advise that you should consider applying for a short-term visit visa first.

Best wishes and good luck.

"Have you considered a long term multi entry visa?

Given your family commitments this is probably you best bet."

Jay Sata, have you actually read the OP ? Please give up, and stop trying to show that you know what you are talking about.

[Tony M]

It's not clear from the original post how much time your wife has spent in the UK recently. If it is more than the non-existent "6 in 12 " guidance, then the ECO might have grounds to refuse. However, this is the third instance of the use of this refusal reason that I am now aware of, so it looks like it might be UKV&I general policy, or it might just be Bangkok who are refusing applications on these grounds.

Without seeing the refusal notice, and without knowing a little more of the background, it is not easy to give advice on your situation. There is no reason in law that your wife cannot visit the UK regularly, as long as she can show that she is not de facto living in the UK. If you want to post the refusal notice ( removing personal details) then we may be able to give more advice. If you would like me to look at it without you having to post it, then send me a PM. As you can see from the link that 7x7 posted, I have details of a very similar recent refusal which was overturned.

[NSCR]

refusal decision_edit.docx

It's not clear from the original post how much time your wife has spent in the UK recently. If it is more than the non-existent "6 in 12 " guidance, then the ECO might have grounds to refuse. However, this is the third instance of the use of this refusal reason that I am now aware of, so it looks like it might be UKV&I general policy, or it might just be Bangkok who are refusing applications on these grounds.

Without seeing the refusal notice, and without knowing a little more of the background, it is not easy to give advice on your situation. There is no reason in law that your wife cannot visit the UK regularly, as long as she can show that she is not de facto living in the UK. If you want to post the refusal notice ( removing personal details) then we may be able to give more advice. If you would like me to look at it without you having to post it, then send me a PM. As you can see from the link that 7x7 posted, I have details of a very similar recent refusal which was overturned.

Thanks for all the responses. I have uploaded the refusal note, along with some clarifications, and my wife's travel history history to the UK.

Since March 2012, she had been issued 2 6-month multiple-entry visitor visas. The first had two visits of about a month each. The second one visit of 4 months. So a total time in the UK of 6 months out of the past 20.

The visa applied for and refused was a two year visitor visa. This was selected as she had proven that she did leave the UK after previous visits, and 2 years would likely be the time to sort out my parents, and we wanted the flexibility to be able to travel without constantly resorting to single visa applications.

As in the case of the previous poster, I would have been happy if they had issued a single entry visa for X months, with a warning that we were spending too much time in the UK. But refusal has caused a lot of distress and inconvenience. As has been pointed out, there don't seem to be clear guidelines on what constitutes "attempting to live permanently in the UK by facilitating with frequent short absences".

I am not just looking for a cheap visa, but the applications are relatively expensive, so I want to make sure I apply for the correct one, with a good chance of it being issued. The refusal seems to indicate I chose the wrong one.

I am also reticent to go through the appeals process, writing to my MP, etc unless there would be a good chance of success in a reasonable time frame. I would like to resolve this as soon as possible, so if re-apply is the quickest, then I am happy to go down that route.

This brings me back to the original question. Is it better to apply for 6 month visitor visas (after a waiting period of unknown time) or try for a Spouse visa? From what I have read, both should be possible in our circumstances. However, the visa refusal doesn't appear entirely justified, which makes me fearful that future applications will also be rejected.

The picture is further complicated now by the fact that I am in England and my wife in the Philippines. Do we both fly back to Thailand to apply again? Does she do it in Manila? I can see lots of holes in the documents we need to provide to prove we have a "relationship", now we are apart. Even my parents are getting stressed over this.

Hope the refusal note and some clarifications help. Hopefully we can come to a consensus as to the best plan to resolve this. Appreciate all your input.

[7by7]

Hi NSCR

Have you considered a long term multi entry visa?

1) Had you read the OP you would know that this is what his wife applied for and was refused!

2) Even if her latest application and refusal had been for a standard 6 month, having refused that on the grounds of spending too much time in the UK as a visitor the ECO is not then going to issue a longer term visit visa.

[7by7]

NCSR,

Having looked at the refusal notice, I can see the ECOs point as your wife had only been back from the UK for two months after a 4 month visit before applying to go back for another 5, possibly 6 months.

Personally, I think any visit application by her is unlikely to be successful for that reason alone until she has been out of the UK for 6 months; i..e. March 2014.

However, TonyM is a professional and far more experienced and knowledgeable than I, so let's await his comments.

It is up to you and your wife if she applies for settlement instead; even though that is not what she really wants.

Are you saying that your wife is now back in the Philippines indefinitely? If so, then she should apply in Manila. If she does so, the ECOs there will have access to her file and the record of this refusal from Bangkok as well as her previous applications.

[Tony M]

On the face of it, the ECO's decision was correct as it was based on the information available to him, but that information was not necessarily complete.

The ECO has this kind of guidance to work with :

There is no restriction on the number of visits a person may make to the UK nor any requirement that a specified time must elapse between successive visits. However, the Immigration Rules state that the applicant must show that they do not intend to live in the UK for extended periods through frequent and successive visits. An ECO must consider the reason for a series of visits with only brief intervals outside the UK between each visit. The ECO must consider the purpose of the visit against the time elapsed between visits and the duration of previous visits to the UK

There is no Rule that states a visitor can only remain in the UK for 6 out of any 12 months, but an ECO must examine the pattern and frequency of visits to see that it does not amount to de facto residence.

So, the fact that your wife stayed in the UK, or wishes to stay in the UK, for more than the period that the ECO considers to be a "visit" looks to be the correct decision. But, it comes down to the reason why she made, or wants to make, reqular visits, and you have said that your parents are not in the best of health. Visiting sick relatives is a valid reason to go to the UK, and the ECO cannot be prescriptive about the length of any visit, or the number of visits if there are compassionate aspects to the application. Your wife still has to show that she is not using the frequent visits to "live" in the UK, but I would suggest that the ECO's presumption could be overcome if there is compelling evidence that your parents are sick. It comes down to evidence and presentation, I think.

The information that you have given about your, and your wife's background, residence in Thailand, etc, should easily overcome the ECO's other objections. You are also correct about the marriage that took place while you were in the UK. There must not have been any intention to marry in the UK when you applied for the visa, so that refusal reason is easily overcome.

[Jay Sata]

Hi NSCR

Have you considered a long term multi entry visa?

Given your family commitments this is probably you best bet.

Take a look at this.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/visas-immigration/visiting/general/apply/

A long-term visit visa is valid for 1, 2, 5 or 10 years. The application fee is higher than for a short-term visit visa.

If we grant you a long-term visit visa, you are allowed unlimited entry into the UK for the time that the visa is valid, but for a maximum of 6 months for each visit.

We recommend that you limit your stay to the period stated on your visa application. If you spend long periods in the UK as a visitor, our officers may doubt your intentions.

If you breach the conditions of your entry to the UK, we may ban you from returning for up to 10 years.

If you apply for a long-term visit visa, we consider:

• whether you can show a frequent and sustained need to come to the UK (such as family links or an established business connection);
• whether your personal circumstances are likely to change significantly while the visa is valid - so you should give us as much evidence as possible that your circumstances will remain the same;
• whether you have shown that you can support yourself in the UK without public funds, and that you intend to leave the UK at the end of each visit; and
• your previous travel history as shown in a current valid passport.

You should think carefully before applying for a long-term visit visa. We may refuse the visa or issue it for a shorter period than you have applied for (if, for example, the evidence that you provide does not support a long-term visit visa application, or does not meet the visa requirements). If we refuse the application or issue the visa for a shorter period, we will not refund your application fee.

If you have not applied for a UK visa before, we advise that you should consider applying for a short-term visit visa first.

Best wishes and good luck.

This is exactly the visa my Chinese wife applied for, the first application she received a two year visa, and the last one (two weeks ago) she received a five year visa. The only major difference between my wife at that of the OP is that my wife is the sole agent in China for a brand of Devon Cider, however although revealing this in her application form, she did not attach any documentation to prove.

We also found it imperative to photo copy all required documentation such as marriage certs , home ownership documents etc, then submit them with the originals. VFS will then check the copies against the originals, then hand you back the originals.

What was plain sailing for us appears to be a nightmare for you. Wish you luck.

That's the road I'd be going down unless you're a UK resident.

Some advice on here is UK slanted from a UK residents point of view.

[Tony M]

That's the road I'd be going down unless you're a UK resident.

Some advice on here is UK slanted from a UK residents point of view.

And some advice on here is completely wrong. I'm referring to your advice, Jay Sata, but you don't seem to realise it.

This forum has a good reputation, not only in Thailand, but globally. Unfortunately the advice you give is bringing down the quality of the forum, and thus, the reputation it holds. I say again, you never acknowledge that any of the advice you give is wrong, and that makes you dangerous in this type of forum. I implore you to stop giving advice on subjects you know nothing about, making statements just for the sake of posting something, and to seriously think about leaving this forum altogether.

[Jay Sata]

I'm not trying to cross swords with anyone here Tony but it seems to me the OP would be better of using one of the reputable agents who are well know on this site if he does not want to waste time or have all the hassle.

I can't see a problem as I travel a lot and in some respects fit in to his category.

He ticks all the boxes so the long term multi entry visa should be no problem.

http://www.ukba.home.../general/apply/

What's wrong with suggesting that?

[theoldgit]

I'm not trying to cross swords with anyone here Tony but it seems to me the OP would be better of using one of the reputable agents who are well know on this site if he does not want to waste time or have all the hassle.

I can't see a problem as I travel a lot and in some respects fit in to his category.

He ticks all the boxes so the long term multi entry visa should be no problem.

http://www.ukba.home.../general/apply/

What's wrong with suggesting that?

What is wrong with suggesting that is that the OP's wife applied for a longer term visa, and was refused, so it clearly is a problem.

I will go out on a limb here and tell you publicly that Tony M is probably the most knowledgable and experienced poster on this forum, and his advice can be relied upon.

[Tony M]

I'm not trying to cross swords with anyone here Tony but it seems to me the OP would be better of using one of the reputable agents who are well know on this site if he does not want to waste time or have all the hassle.

I can't see a problem as I travel a lot and in some respects fit in to his category.

He ticks all the boxes so the long term multi entry visa should be no problem.

http://www.ukba.home.../general/apply/

What's wrong with suggesting that?

What is wrong with suggesting that is that the OP's wife applied for a longer term visa, and was refused, so it clearly is a problem.

I will go out on a limb here and tell you publicly that Tony M is probably the most knowledgable and experienced poster on this forum, and his advice can be relied upon.

Thanks for the big build-up, the old git, I'll buy you a beer later (haha). I will disagree, as there are others here with great knowledge in areas that I am weak, and that is what makes the forum so helpful. What I do have is the experience of 40 years in the immigration service, so I do have some idea of how things work, and I have worked as an ECO. What the forum doesn't need is poor, or wrong, advice, given by people who are unable to accept their shortcomings. That wrong advice reflects on the forum as a whole, and as a knowledge base, and we are faced with being brought down to the level of the lowest common denominator. Jay Sata has not even processed the points you made, or acknowledged that he has missed the point of the original post entirely, but "can't see a problem because I travels a lot ".

[7by7]

Indeed, Tony.

It has already been pointed out to Jay Sata that his original suggestion that the OP's wife applies for a long term visa is wrong because that's the type of visa she applied for and was refused; but he has ignored that and simply repeated the wrong advice.

What is more, as you know, he has frequently posted that people using long term visit visas to regularly visit and spend time in the UK, which is the OP's aim, are somehow breaking the rules and should be stopped.

Even in this topic he originally said that a visit visa was the 'wrong visa' and she should be applying for settlement!

He obviously has a problem, so I suppose deserves some sympathy; but not when it causes him to post 'advice' which can adversely effect people's future if any one is foolish enough to follow it.

Especially when he continues to post that 'advice' after being corrected by people such as your good self or shown the rules/guidance which prove his 'advice' is wrong.

[NSCR]

First of all I would like to thank all the contributors here that take time to answer questions, and provide valuable information and advice.

However, I do endorse Tony M's sentiments that advice given that is posted and incorrect is detrimental to the reputation of the site/forum.

There is a wealth of information here, particularly the debate when there are different interpretations. However, from a posters perspective, the debate is great, but it becomes somewhat tedious when looking for information that many posts end up at 4 pages of debate. Sometimes interesting, sometimes not, but in many instances it would be nice to get an answer not a debate. It is probably difficult to do due to the website structure, but would it be possible to do the same as other forums such a ask.com and yahoo.answers, where the best response to the post is highlighted at the beginning, all other answers follow, and then if anyone wants read the debate, they can do so?

I'm not sure what the solution is. My favourite football forum is also ruined by several posters who provide no positive input, but are not banned due to the opinion of the moderator to all "free speech".

At least on a pragmatic level, I'm sure you must be frustrated to find threads started that are answered elsewhere, but the volume of debate available on threads makes that inevitable.

Definitely not criticism, just a suggestion how to improve an already excellent forum.

[NSCR]

On the face of it, the ECO's decision was correct as it was based on the information available to him, but that information was not necessarily complete.

The ECO has this kind of guidance to work with :

There is no restriction on the number of visits a person may make to the UK nor any requirement that a specified time must elapse between successive visits. However, the Immigration Rules state that the applicant must show that they do not intend to live in the UK for extended periods through frequent and successive visits. An ECO must consider the reason for a series of visits with only brief intervals outside the UK between each visit. The ECO must consider the purpose of the visit against the time elapsed between visits and the duration of previous visits to the UK

There is no Rule that states a visitor can only remain in the UK for 6 out of any 12 months, but an ECO must examine the pattern and frequency of visits to see that it does not amount to de facto residence.

So, the fact that your wife stayed in the UK, or wishes to stay in the UK, for more than the period that the ECO considers to be a "visit" looks to be the correct decision. But, it comes down to the reason why she made, or wants to make, reqular visits, and you have said that your parents are not in the best of health. Visiting sick relatives is a valid reason to go to the UK, and the ECO cannot be prescriptive about the length of any visit, or the number of visits if there are compassionate aspects to the application. Your wife still has to show that she is not using the frequent visits to "live" in the UK, but I would suggest that the ECO's presumption could be overcome if there is compelling evidence that your parents are sick. It comes down to evidence and presentation, I think.

The information that you have given about your, and your wife's background, residence in Thailand, etc, should easily overcome the ECO's other objections. You are also correct about the marriage that took place while you were in the UK. There must not have been any intention to marry in the UK when you applied for the visa, so that refusal reason is easily overcome.

Many thanks to both 7by7 and Tony M, for their advice and time taken to respond, as well as the input of nonthaburial and theoldgit.

I'm somewhat surprised that both came to the same conclusion that the ECO decision was correct, but then you both have considerably more experience and expertise that I do, and I am sitting here with a pissed-off wife, disappointed parents, and with egg on my face. I also strongly feel that in certain instances an interview should be granted to explain extenuating circumstances rather than an instant refusal without appeal.

I do agree that the information submitted with the application was perhaps not totally clear, with some supporting documentation not provided, but then it was consistent with previous applications. I still feel that a refusal was extreme, and a one visit limited visa should have been granted based on the "facts". I believe the ECO doubted our intentions, and therefore ignored the facts, which should be no basis for making a decision.

1. My wife had visited the UK three times, on 2 General visitor visas, for a total of 1, 1 and 4 months in the previous 20 months to the current application. Hardly a pattern of de facto residence.

2. I stated in the application that we both had resident visas for Thailand, and intended to remain resident in Thailand.

3. The visits to the UK were for the purpose of taking care of my parents, and therefore the timing, frequency and duration were not predictable.

4. The application form requires the filing in of blanks. Yes or No, Black or White. Having bought a ticket valid for 6 months, I entered a entry and leaving date to reflect departure from Thailand (so visa would be issued before this date, although my wife would spend 1 month in the Philippines before the UK) and maximum return date. I then stated that there was no "definite return date" in my sponsor letter. So the ECO took the last 4 month visit, a further 5(4) month visit, and came up with 9 months out of 12, instant rejection. Given the stated reasons for the visits, previous immigration history, and the information in the sponsor letter, in my opinion this is a very lazy interpretation, and is akin to a "guilty until proven innocent" (even given these dates it would only have been 11 months in 26). However, if they just read the application form, take the dates given, I suppose they can justify this outcome.

I suppose all of this is a moot point. With hindsight, I would have provided more documentary evidence of our circumstances. The issue now is how to proceed to ensure my wife gets a visa next time. As no one has proposed an additional option, I still see two choices.

1. As 7x7 proposed, wait 6 months, and apply for another General visitor visa. Given the current refusal, and rejection of the 6 month in 12 lifestyle, it would appear that long tern (2,5 or 10 year) visitor visas may not be successful. Applying for visas one by one doesn't really provide the flexibility we need to be able to care for my parents, particularly if forced to wait 6 months after each departure. Lacking any clear guidance on what constitutes "permanent residence" on frequent and prolonged visitor visas, I don't see this as a solution.

2. I don't see any impediment to applying for a Spouse visa. I believe we can fulfill all the requirements, although our intention is not to reside full time in the UK. I would hope my parents affairs are resolved within 2 years, but the problem I foresee with this path is if we have to apply for leave to stay in the UK after the first period, we can not proof to have been there permanently.

As it stands we will start to gather all the required documents, and make another application in February/March.

I'm assuming that the prevailing opinion is that the ECO decision was correct based on evidence presented, so any appeal would be futile. Given that neither my wife or myself are currently in Thailand, I don't believe that this path would be better than just reapplying in 2-3 months.

[Tony M]

NCSR said

"Many thanks to both 7by7 and Tony M, for their advice and time taken to respond, as well as the input of nonthaburial and theoldgit.

I'm somewhat surprised that both came to the same conclusion that the ECO decision was correct, but then you both have considerably more experience and expertise that I do, and I am sitting here with a pissed-off wife, disappointed parents, and with egg on my face. I also strongly feel that in certain instances an interview should be granted to explain extenuating circumstances rather than an instant refusal without appeal.

I do agree that the information submitted with the application was perhaps not totally clear, with some supporting documentation not provided, but then it was consistent with previous applications. I still feel that a refusal was extreme, and a one visit limited visa should have been granted based on the "facts". I believe the ECO doubted our intentions, and therefore ignored the facts, which should be no basis for making a decision.

1. My wife had visited the UK three times, on 2 General visitor visas, for a total of 1, 1 and 4 months in the previous 20 months to the current application. Hardly a pattern of de facto residence.

2. I stated in the application that we both had resident visas for Thailand, and intended to remain resident in Thailand.

3. The visits to the UK were for the purpose of taking care of my parents, and therefore the timing, frequency and duration were not predictable.

4. The application form requires the filing in of blanks. Yes or No, Black or White. Having bought a ticket valid for 6 months, I entered a entry and leaving date to reflect departure from Thailand (so visa would be issued before this date, although my wife would spend 1 month in the Philippines before the UK) and maximum return date. I then stated that there was no "definite return date" in my sponsor letter. So the ECO took the last 4 month visit, a further 5(4) month visit, and came up with 9 months out of 12, instant rejection. Given the stated reasons for the visits, previous immigration history, and the information in the sponsor letter, in my opinion this is a very lazy interpretation, and is akin to a "guilty until proven innocent" (even given these dates it would only have been 11 months in 26). However, if they just read the application form, take the dates given, I suppose they can justify this outcome.

I suppose all of this is a moot point. With hindsight, I would have provided more documentary evidence of our circumstances. The issue now is how to proceed to ensure my wife gets a visa next time. As no one has proposed an additional option, I still see two choices.

1. As 7x7 proposed, wait 6 months, and apply for another General visitor visa. Given the current refusal, and rejection of the 6 month in 12 lifestyle, it would appear that long tern (2,5 or 10 year) visitor visas may not be successful. Applying for visas one by one doesn't really provide the flexibility we need to be able to care for my parents, particularly if forced to wait 6 months after each departure. Lacking any clear guidance on what constitutes "permanent residence" on frequent and prolonged visitor visas, I don't see this as a solution.

2. I don't see any impediment to applying for a Spouse visa. I believe we can fulfill all the requirements, although our intention is not to reside full time in the UK. I would hope my parents affairs are resolved within 2 years, but the problem I foresee with this path is if we have to apply for leave to stay in the UK after the first period, we can not proof to have been there permanently.

As it stands we will start to gather all the required documents, and make another application in February/March.

I'm assuming that the prevailing opinion is that the ECO decision was correct based on evidence presented, so any appeal would be futile. Given that neither my wife or myself are currently in Thailand, I don't believe that this path would be better than just reapplying in 2-3 months. "

The reason we both agreed that the ECO's decision was correct is because the ECO works out time spent in the UK on "a rolling 12 month period", not on time spent in the UK over a period of time. Everything you say makes sense, but the ECO obviously didn't want to issue the visa. He could, as you say, have issued another 6 month validity visa if he had wanted to. By the way, there is no right of appeal against the decision, and this is one reason ( in my mind, anyway) why ECOs believe they can make decisions such as this.

You may want to look at the two documents I have attached. One is the current guidance for ECOs on "frequent or successive" visits. The other is an appeal determination from 2 years ago. That determination was before the immigration rules were changed to include the "frequent or successive" rule, so quoting it may not help any application. However, I would think that the "spirit" of that determination must still exist, and it may be useful in any new application.

I have attached a 3rd document, which relates to "carers". You may also want to have a look at that before making any new application, as stating that your wife wants to "care" for your parents may lead to difficulties later. As I said in an earlier post, presentation of the application is important here.

general-visitor.pdf

Oppong full determination.docx

section2.pdf