Sabai Properties / Kitt & Murray

[Lindsay]

I hadn't expected my post to generate such a huge response! A big thank you to all contributors, your comments are very much appreciated, and we are delighted that we finally have answers to our questions. Best wishes, Lindsay

[Khun Jean]

My name is Lawrence Fay, I am the principle owner of Sabai Properties and its flagship development Sabai Thani. It was suggested to me by a friend that I read this forum and he kindly allowed me to use his Login to post this reply.

I am amazed at some of the content and comments by people who have absolutely no idea what is going on in Samui and more importantly no direct knowledge or contact with Sabai Thani or its developer (thanks go to those people who know me and posted their positive comments).

At least it got your attention!

I can confirm this is the first posting by anyone directly connected to Sabai Properties, the developer behind Sabai Thani, so be assured there is no question of anybody here hiding behind “profile names” as the self proclaimed expert on everything, LaoPo, would have us believe.

Very defensive.

I invite him/her or anyone else to contact Sabai offices and make an appointment to be shown around the site. For those of you who can not force yourselves to leave your PC may I tell you the facts as I know them to be: In this construction boom we suffer, like all developers, in maintaining an optimum workforce. That said, work is progressing well on five new villas (four already completed) with particular emphasis on the two apartment blocks. I admit we have been unable to meet our predicted (not contractual) completion date for the first apartment block.

Telling facts?? Facts from a certain point of view?. Evasive answers.

Suffer, you mean making loads and loads of money. I am feeling so sorry for you....

There have been planning issues with regard to the roof designs, these have been resolved and anyone passing from the Bophut side should be able to see the work in progress from the road.

In addition to our own direct labour, our site is currently populated by sub-contractors installing air-conditioning, electrical first fixing, integrated alarms, and bespoke joinery.

Details are not important, that is why developers are used. To take care of the daily business with materials, workforce etc..

With regard to the land, Sabai Thani plots are all held by separate landholding companies with supporting contract land papers and ‘Tabien Baans’ which are transferred on completion and handover of the property.

I believe this. Would be very stupid if this was not in order.

Sabai Properties uses two reputable legal firms on the Island, Pensit and Laws (Lamai), and Roberts and Gerrard (Maenam).

Martello Realty are the contracted sole agent managing the sale of Sabai Thani properties. As a result of the excellent service they have provided I have extended this contract to providing support services in the Destination Shopping Mall project. To further clarify Martello Holdings and Sabai Properties are definitively separate companies.

If everyone has done an outstanding job. I wonder how the OP could be treated as she described.

I doubt this will stop the gossip mongers and those with a chip on their shoulder or an axe to grind. However, once again, I extend an invitation to visit the site and to see for yourselves.

If this message started with a sincere apology to the OP i would value this post. Now it is just another sales pitch on how great everything and everybody is.

Show some feelings and concern and this would be easier to swallow.

I guess a course in dealing with customers is in order.

[Malice in Wonderland]

I guess a course in dealing with customers is in order.

Have you even MET the man in question???? Didn't think so.....

[Khun Jean]

I guess a course in dealing with customers is in order.

Have you even MET the man in question???? Didn't think so.....

Not really the point. Yes i did speak to him.

Good salesman, seems honest. Great brochures. But for those prices i would be able to buy at least 4x the size of the land and 2-3x bigger size house.

The numbers did not add up. (At least for someone that knows a little about prices, and after a few years research and some building experience i am reasonable good at estimating prices).

But what i meant is, what really counts is the aftersales. Looks like that can be much better.

[MikeBond]

We are buying a villa at Sabai Thani. When we were out there in January construction was being carried out on both villas and condos. I have since seen photos of 4 of the villas which have been completed. There are also pics on eyeonworldwide.com a website for property purchasers covering many parts of the world. While out there we also looked at other developements going on and found that some which were originally designed with flat roofs were having problems (eg Luxury Tropical Living) because the planning law was being amended and this change was causeing some delays and re-planning applications. This info. was from other, rival developers who were in competition with Sabai Properties. We agree that it is quite frustrating when up to date info is not being communicated especially when modern communications makes it so easy. Perhaps the posted comments will galvanise Martello and Sabai Properties to e-mail developements or delays in a pro-active way to purchasers in future.

[Prakanong2005]

"To further clarify Martello Holdings and Sabai Properties are definitively separate companies."

But do they have any overlapping Directors or shareholders?

[womble]

Martello are resposible for that new shopping centre, a bit like central in phuket. Does anyone know whats going on there, I havn't seen anymore news on it for a while.

[thestirfry]

Well Done Lawrence!

Don't listen to anyone on here!

They know jack shiet and obviously have nothing else to do but spout utter litter!

peace!

thestirfry

[LaoPo]

Don't listen to anyone on here!

Except you of course.....I suppose

LaoPo

[digitele]

To all, my 2 cents worth.

After being in and out of Thailand and 10+ years resident, here's an interesting FACT:

All of the Islands are generally classified as agricultural areas by the Land Department.

Chanotes are rare because of this classification. The authorities (Central) want to keep the developers out and many "upgrades" are totally false and the Land Department is weeding them out. Now as corruption abounds and Farang are the lowest hanging fruit...well you get the picture.

The thing to do is, check the local land department and check the land ownership with lawyer. Then get a proper lease hold. Anything else is illegal, technically. Last you can get the "structure" recorded in your name. This is actually cheaper and safer. Who wants a Chanote in someone else's

name? For what benefit? So that the Thai citizen can get a loan with a bank for what's really your property?

The Land Department where I live have explained to me many times, this type of land is not ever going to be upgraded to Chanote, regardless of how much money you pay that local land department. It is illegal period. I seen a lot of projects on the net now and read the fine print.

The first deposit of 100K Baht is not refundable etc. Preety good scam, but real people are getting burned. Well enough for now. Anyone want real advise PM me. I'll be in my island house with my blue book.

[Nadia 2]

Maybe Lindsay thinks she is buying a condominium? She is probably buying shares in a holding company which 'owns' the land and apartment blocks which, and of course, has nothing to do with the Thai government allowing foreigners to own a condo. Unless the 'premier developer' has registered the apartment blocks as a condominium this leads again to an illegal 'ownership' and may very likely lead to potential problems in the future.

[digitele]

Maybe Lindsay thinks she is buying a condominium? She is probably buying shares in a holding company which 'owns' the land and apartment blocks which, and of course, has nothing to do with the Thai government allowing foreigners to own a condo. Unless the 'premier developer' has registered the apartment blocks as a condominium this leads again to an illegal 'ownership' and may very likely lead to potential problems in the future.

Nadia 2, you are very diplomatic. My compliments! Really.

"very likely lead to potential problems in the future."

Like watching a slow moving Train wreck......

[LaoPo]

Digitele: where do you live/building your house? Lots of freighter ships and tankers there..?

LaoPo

[digitele]

Digitele: where do you live/building your house? Lots of freighter ships and tankers there..?

LaoPo

LaoPo, It's Koh Sichang island off the coast from Sri Ratcha. The deep seaport at Laem Chabang is

Southwest and very busy. So they load and unload here and the barges then make their way to

Bangkok or vise a versa

[LaoPo]

Digitele: where do you live/building your house? Lots of freighter ships and tankers there..?

LaoPo

LaoPo, It's Koh Sichang island off the coast from Sri Ratcha. The deep seaport at Laem Chabang is

Southwest and very busy. So they load and unload here and the barges then make their way to

Bangkok or vise a versa

Thanks for sharing this!

LaoPo

[kinkhao]

Hi I saw you mention Koh Sichang. Do you live there, are you an ex pat?? My wife and I were there early this year and were told that land title issues are VERY grey!! is this so??

quote name='LaoPo' date='2006-05-29 10:51:54' post='761515']

Digitele: where do you live/building your house? Lots of freighter ships and tankers there..?

LaoPo

LaoPo, It's Koh Sichang island off the coast from Sri Ratcha. The deep seaport at Laem Chabang is

Southwest and very busy. So they load and unload here and the barges then make their way to

Bangkok or vise a versa

Thanks for sharing this!

LaoPo

[Porter]

I'm correct that the CEO of Sabai Thani, a Mr Lawrence Fay, replied directly to a members post (Lindsey) using another members handle, that of (Griz) and stated that there was absolutely no problem with the Sabai Thani land titles and that the only delays were wrt roof design?

Agreed?

Unfortunately the National Pra Cha Chat Turikit newspaper is singing a different song.

They have reported according to information received from the Department of Special Investigation (DSI) that the actual land at LAEM MI GAN in fact belongs to the GROM TA NA RAK.

This, as I understand it, is another branch of the government along the same lines as the forestry department. Suffice to say a government body … and that the 12 Rai’s that Sabai Thani exists on are all carrying FALSIFIED land documents.

Now what the hel_l is going on fella’s?

I do not know “IF” this is true or if any action has been brought against the developer to date, but, “IF” it is true then I wouldn’t rule out action being taken in the form of reclaiming the land.

Out of concern for the Member (Lindsay) I feel that I owe it to her to suggest the following course of action:

Fly directly to Bangkok and instead of engaging a local law firm recommended by foreigners, who, if this story proves to be true, are incompetent at best and talk directly to the Department of Special Investigation (DSI) which is the Thai equivalent of the American FBI.

It appears that they are currently investigating this project.

Bring all your documentation, ie: contracts, receipts, money transfers and lay out the buying process on the table and where you are with it to actually determine if your purchase is under threat.

I sincerely hope for your sake, that the newspaper was wrong and that (Griz), Mr Fay of Sabai Thani and Martello Realty as the Agents are correct in their assertions.

But Better to be safe than sorry wouldn’t you agree!

[John 1]

Porter,

You are bring up some good stuff, I would say it could be true as I heard a lot of stories about this area before Sabai even acquired this land.

I see they wiped your other post about Cunning you may have been close to the mark, you will have to be a bit more cunning next time.

[Khun Jean]

I hope next time i advise someone to take a plane it will not be seen as Samui bashing but just stating things as they are.

Unfortunately for "Lindsay" this is going on too long. As for the other saying that nothing is wrong and everything is rosy, better look out the window.

[taxexile]

grom tannarak ....... the treasury department.

when i looked over that development about 18 months ago , mr. fay and one of the directors of martello told me that half of the small headland that they are building on is owned by the government , and that they (sabai thani / martello) have legal title to the half that they are building on.

as nice as the location of that development is , the fact that adjacent land was government owned was enough to negate any further interest from me in sabai thani.

mr. fay seemed like a decent enough chap , but the problem with all these falangs involved in the property game who cant speak or read the language is , is that even though they may be honest and trustworthy , their ignorance of the language makes them easy prey for the masses of the thai hucksters in whom they may put their trust as partners in these land deals , and who have all the connections that enable them to contact the owners of choice tracts of land.

when things go pear shaped after some government review of land titles, the thai partner has long gone and is laughing all the way to the bank with his share of the loot , the falang partner who didnt even know anything was wrong has now been left holding the baby.

hopefully mr. fay et al have bought their land in full accordance with the law and the thai partners and lawyers that they have been dealing with are above board.

on samui , and anywhere else in this country , buyer beware , and then some.

Edited August 16, 2006 by taxexile

[Khun Jean]

And for some people, some advice. If a developer/laywer says the land can be in your name "no ploblem", Not walk but run away!

Or do people really believe that land titles can be 100% in your name for 100.000 baht. That scam was running a long time too in Samui. They just used a "special" office. The same office maybe for this

"Mai Sabai Thani". It is just disgusting and i hope they put them all to jail!

SDI go for it! Time for a clean up.

[Porter]

And for some people, some advice. If a developer/laywer says the land can be in your name "no ploblem", Not walk but run away!

Or do people really believe that land titles can be 100% in your name for 100.000 baht. That scam was running a long time too in Samui. They just used a "special" office. The same office maybe for this

"Mai Sabai Thani". It is just disgusting and i hope they put them all to jail!

SDI go for it! Time for a clean up.

For those interested in the article:

http://www.matichon.co.th/prachachart/prac...;day=2006/08/10

Hey Tax Exile, I though it was the Mint but Treasury Department sounds right.

As I understand it, they, as in the owners of Sabai Thani did try to convince their greedy Thai co-conspirators to go for the full 50 Rai but 38 Rai got knocked on the head as being just a little too obvious.

Why do you think they removed my "Cunning Plans" Post?

I think I'll repost it on the off chance that they made a mistake.

Looks like you guys are going to have be quick if you want to catch some of the good stuff coming.

[Porter]

Try that Link Again:

Best to cut and paste it in parts with no spaces in between it:

You might want to add the www. before matichon

matichon.co.th/prachachart/prachachart_detail.php?s_tag=02p0105100849&show=1&sectionid=0201&day=2006/08/10

[taxexile]

according to that article , the land was bought by sabai thani from a falang company , who originally bought it from a government official many years ago. the original land usage was mineral extraction.

the article goes on to talk about some government enquiry into all the sales of that piece of land.

it also mentions the fact that mr. lawrence fay is the owner of about 80 companies on samui , all involved in real estate.

it would be good to have a full and accurate translation of that article posted here so that lindsay and others can see for themselves whether this piece of land and its past transfers are under any kind of suspicion.

Edited August 16, 2006 by taxexile

[Porter]

according to that article , the land was bought by sabai thani from a falang company , who originally bought it from a government official many years ago. the original land usage was mineral extraction.

the article goes on to talk about some government enquiry into all the sales of that piece of land.

it also mentions the fact that mr. lawrence fay is the owner of about 80 companies on samui , all involved in real estate.

it would be good to have a full and accurate translation of that article posted here so that lindsay and others can see for themselves whether this piece of land and its past transfers are under any kind of suspicion.

How about this Tax Exile:

Sabai Thani currently holds “land title documents” to 12 Rai of land that Pra Cha Chat Turikit is insinuating belongs to the Gom Ta Na Rak or Treasury Department.

If this is true then, then by definition, those land title documents must be false.

This is contradictory to what both the member (Griz) and Mr Fay posted on this forum topic.

The article also went on to say that Pon Tamluwat A Tawee Sodsong, Deputy Director of the Department of Special Investigations (DSI) was currently investigating this claim.

Again ... a reference that the land in question is under investigation.

Now, my money is riding on the fact that these titles are indeed false. I don’t care how many hands they passed through until they got to Mr Fay and I’m sure that the member (LINDSAY) doesn’t either.

Though you are very quick to move into damage control mode by implying that Mr Fay and his company Sabai Thani are uneducated, non Thai speaking or reading innocents and as such, easy pray to Thai hucksters.

<deleted>

So, my suggestion to the concerned member (LINDSAY) is that she should go straight to the horses mouth, ie the investigative agency which happens to be the DSI to try and find out where she and her husband stand.

Or,

Are you suggesting that she hires another local samui law firm, such as Miklaw (Mickey Mouse Law?) and take a gamble on whether they are up to the task?

Or,

Do nothing and wait for a comprehensive translation of this article. Remember where there's smoke there's fire.

PS: How about this for an idea: The developers wanted that piece of land so bad that they flashed a really large chunk of green under the coconut growers nose so that they just couldn’t say know to falsifying those land papers.

I won’t be surprised that once the Thai officials are picked up and questioned that there will be a few statements made to that effect.

Best of Luck Lindsay.

[Beachedwhale]

My understanding of the article is that the land is indeed in question but not that My Fay knowingly did any wrong. It appears that the land changed hands near to 20 years ago from being a lease for the purpose of mining the land to a titled piece of land which has subsequently passed through a couple of pairs of hands until being purchased by Sabai Properties 9 years ago. The article also states that because it is now so long since the original illegal activity was done and it is difficult to find the parties, it is likely that there will not be any party prosecuted for the offence and that the land will liklely not be reclaimed by the Government ... but that the court process has not finished and therefore no gurantees either way ... The article also talks about other property also illegally upgraded in Thongson Bay currently owned by a Samui resident "with strong Samui contacts" (no inference that it is Mr Fay - just another similar situation).

There are other precedents in Thailand and one recently in Phuket where a hotel had already been built on some land illegally upgraded. The government in this case did take the land back but leased it back to the hotel.

[Porter]

My understanding of the article is that the land is indeed in question but not that My Fay knowingly did any wrong. It appears that the land changed hands near to 20 years ago from being a lease for the purpose of mining the land to a titled piece of land which has subsequently passed through a couple of pairs of hands until being purchased by Sabai Properties 9 years ago. The article also states that because it is now so long since the original illegal activity was done and it is difficult to find the parties, it is likely that there will not be any party prosecuted for the offence and that the land will liklely not be reclaimed by the Government ... but that the court process has not finished and therefore no gurantees either way ... The article also talks about other property also illegally upgraded in Thongson Bay currently owned by a Samui resident "with strong Samui contacts" (no inference that it is Mr Fay - just another similar situation).

There are other precedents in Thailand and one recently in Phuket where a hotel had already been built on some land illegally upgraded. The government in this case did take the land back but leased it back to the hotel.

This was a well written reply.

PS: I heard that the current Poo Yai Baan of Bangrak was actually involved in the illegal upgrade?

Do you know if this is true?

If so, he is very easy to find ... ?

[taxexile]

beached whale

My understanding of the article is that the land is indeed in question but not that My Fay knowingly did any wrong. It appears that the land changed hands near to 20 years ago from being a lease for the purpose of mining the land to a titled piece of land which has subsequently passed through a couple of pairs of hands until being purchased by Sabai Properties 9 years ago. The article also states that because it is now so long since the original illegal activity was done and it is difficult to find the parties, it is likely that there will not be any party prosecuted for the offence and that the land will likely not be reclaimed by the Government ... but that the court process has not finished and therefore no guarantees either way ... The article also talks about other property also illegally upgraded in Thongson Bay currently owned by a Samui resident "with strong Samui contacts" (no inference that it is Mr Fay - just another similar situation).

that too is my understanding of that article.

porter

Though you are very quick to move into damage control mode by implying that Mr Fay and his company Sabai Thani are uneducated, non Thai speaking or reading innocents and as such, easy pray to Thai hucksters.

this was not "damage control" , and i did not imply that mr. fay is uneducated.

i just assumed that , like the majority of falang estate agents in Thailand , they can neither speak nor read Thai to a level advanced enough to enable them to understand fully some of the documents and legalities that they are dealing with , they are reliant on Thai third parties for that.

should they choose those third parties wrongly then mistakes , trickery and skullduggery can result.

with eventual heartache and headache for the poor last person in the chain , i.e. the customer.

with no evidence or proof and only hearsay from posters (including myself) on an Internet forum , it would be a fool who came to any conclusions regarding the estate agents , based on what they have read here.

but as i have said before , in Thailand when buying land

buyer beware , and then some.

as for what a concerned buyer should be doing , well maybe porters advice to go , via a reputable Bangkok firm of lawyers , (i personally would even have confidence in a samui lawyer to successfully contest a parking ticket) to the dsi and find out what the state of play is.

the newspaper article also states that it is unlikely that the land will be repossessed.

my gut feeling is that the purchasers will get their homes , but they may have to endure a few sleepless nights first.

[Porter]

beached whale

My understanding of the article is that the land is indeed in question but not that My Fay knowingly did any wrong. It appears that the land changed hands near to 20 years ago from being a lease for the purpose of mining the land to a titled piece of land which has subsequently passed through a couple of pairs of hands until being purchased by Sabai Properties 9 years ago. The article also states that because it is now so long since the original illegal activity was done and it is difficult to find the parties, it is likely that there will not be any party prosecuted for the offence and that the land will likely not be reclaimed by the Government ... but that the court process has not finished and therefore no guarantees either way ... The article also talks about other property also illegally upgraded in Thongson Bay currently owned by a Samui resident "with strong Samui contacts" (no inference that it is Mr Fay - just another similar situation).

that too is my understanding of that article.

porter

Though you are very quick to move into damage control mode by implying that Mr Fay and his company Sabai Thani are uneducated, non Thai speaking or reading innocents and as such, easy pray to Thai hucksters.

this was not "damage control" , and i did not imply that mr. fay is uneducated.

i just assumed that , like the majority of falang estate agents in Thailand , they can neither speak nor read Thai to a level advanced enough to enable them to understand fully some of the documents and legalities that they are dealing with , they are reliant on Thai third parties for that.

should they choose those third parties wrongly then mistakes , trickery and skullduggery can result.

with eventual heartache and headache for the poor last person in the chain , i.e. the customer.

with no evidence or proof and only hearsay from posters (including myself) on an Internet forum , it would be a fool who came to any conclusions regarding the estate agents , based on what they have read here.

but as i have said before , in Thailand when buying land

buyer beware , and then some.

as for what a concerned buyer should be doing , well maybe porters advice to go , via a reputable Bangkok firm of lawyers , (i personally would even have confidence in a samui lawyer to successfully contest a parking ticket) to the dsi and find out what the state of play is.

the newspaper article also states that it is unlikely that the land will be repossessed.

my gut feeling is that the purchasers will get their homes , but they may have to endure a few sleepless nights first.

So, are we now in agreement that the land is under investigation!

If so, then what Mr Fay and the other members such as (Griz) & (Real Estate Expert) stated so openly on this column is indeed false. I.e.: that the land is NOT under investigation or suspect.

Glad we finally cleared that up!

[taxexile]

i personally would even have confidence in a samui lawyer to successfully contest a parking ticket)

that should actually read " NOT even have confidence "