One for the ladies. How do you deal with hypocracy? ("lighthearted" discussion!)

[LaraC]

So because it bothers some women we should tone it down. Thought police much?

I don't understand why the whole drama. Men and women are objectified all the time although usually in different ways. Don't like it? Don't watch/buy/listen. Move along and let others be.

This feminist thought and expression regulation attempt towards what they presive to be "how things should be" is tiring.

Would I prefer to not be bombarded with either? Yes! But you won't see me either trying to censor other people nor trying to do the whole "I think it's wrong when done to me so I'll do it to you just to make a point".

If you are agaisnt sexual objectification then don't do it either!

Hypocrisy goes both ways.

That would all be well and fine if it was possible to "dont watch/buy/listen" but its pretty much mainstream, so inadvertently one is inundated.

With Diddl's experience in the workplace for example, you could tell her to just turn a blind eye and not register the nude calendars and playboy magazine etc..but thats hardly fair now, is it? SHe had to "make a point" in order to be heard. For, in all honesty if a woman protests in any way about this kind of thing she gets laughed at, dismissed, or called feminist (in a derogatory manner).

If you were surrounded by overt sexism/objectification of men in the same quantities that females are exposed to female images, i wonder if you change your tune.

[Ulic]

I was not remotely offended by your avatar. Up to you what you want to have. Personally I have

not figured out how to put one up and I am not even sure what it would be but now you have me

thinking and maybe I will figure things out.

[louse1953]

First program i saw in Oz after a long time away was Oz,and the first thing that come on was a big black shlong.My Tgf couldn't believe her eyes and neither could i.Needless to say,Oz became her fav. program,and left me feeling a little inadequat.

[sbk]

So because it bothers some women we should tone it down. Thought police much?

I don't understand why the whole drama. Men and women are objectified all the time although usually in different ways. Don't like it? Don't watch/buy/listen. Move along and let others be.

This feminist thought and expression regulation attempt towards what they presive to be "how things should be" is tiring.

Would I prefer to not be bombarded with either? Yes! But you won't see me either trying to censor other people nor trying to do the whole "I think it's wrong when done to me so I'll do it to you just to make a point".

If you are agaisnt sexual objectification then don't do it either!

Hypocrisy goes both ways.

So because her avatar bothers some men she should tone it down. Thought police much?

[alexviseu]

So because it bothers some women we should tone it down. Thought police much?

I don't understand why the whole drama. Men and women are objectified all the time although usually in different ways. Don't like it? Don't watch/buy/listen. Move along and let others be.

This feminist thought and expression regulation attempt towards what they presive to be "how things should be" is tiring.

Would I prefer to not be bombarded with either? Yes! But you won't see me either trying to censor other people nor trying to do the whole "I think it's wrong when done to me so I'll do it to you just to make a point".

If you are agaisnt sexual objectification then don't do it either!

Hypocrisy goes both ways.

That would all be well and fine if it was possible to "dont watch/buy/listen" but its pretty much mainstream, so inadvertently one is inundated.

With Diddl's experience in the workplace for example, you could tell her to just turn a blind eye and not register the nude calendars and playboy magazine etc..but thats hardly fair now, is it? SHe had to "make a point" in order to be heard. For, in all honesty if a woman protests in any way about this kind of thing she gets laughed at, dismissed, or called feminist (in a derogatory manner).

If you were surrounded by overt sexism/objectification of men in the same quantities that females are exposed to female images, i wonder if you change your tune.

The point is that yes, Diddl should have just ignored the sexual surrondings and moved on. If she had personally been harassed in anyway then that would have been a different matter. But as far as I see i nothing was directed at her.

That said I will concede that if action was to be taken, the chosen path was actually pretty clever and effective in showing them their double standard.

I didn't get that feeling but if you were doing something similar then it is definitely hypocrisy and I will retract and apologise for that.

I mostly wonder how things would have gone if they cared as little for male sexual objectification as they did for women's. Would that be "fair" and therefore ok?

[LaraC]

This is turning out to be a very interesting discussion..so thank you all.
Alex, your point about Diddl, lets put it another way. If it were images were depicting gay men in provacative positions that you had to look at each day, and your boss was gay and you had to open his subscription of gay maxim (or whatever gay mags are popular), would it begin to make you feel uncomfortable in any way or could you shake it off? (Personally i think its highly unprofessional to have these kinds of things in the workplace.,,but thats almost a whole other discussion). If you wouldnt think twice about it, then i commend you. But honestly, i think you would be in the male minority.

[Diddl]

I would like to add something more. Why do men have to look at nude women? Is it because they feel inadequate? Is it because they have to prove to the world that they are men? Is it because they can’t get a decent girl and so have to portray to the world that they are still sexually active and men? Or is it because all they want is a girl who has had silicone implants, plastic surgery, and ten coats of make-up so they can show her off to their mates and feel admired? And, and, and, don’t forget ! – is it because they want a woman with less brains than their low IQ?

I wonder. I have never had an honest answer to this predicament!

[alexviseu]

I would like to add something more. Why do men have to look at nude women? Is it because they feel inadequate? Is it because they have to prove to the world that they are men? Is it because they can’t get a decent girl and so have to portray to the world that they are still sexually active and men? Or is it because all they want is a girl who has had silicone implants, plastic surgery, and ten coats of make-up so they can show her off to their mates and feel admired? And, and, and, don’t forget ! – is it because they want a woman with less brains than their low IQ?

I wonder. I have never had an honest answer to this predicament!

Well, speaking only for myself (all men are different believe it or not), I just enjoy looking at beautiful women. I don't know why I do, I just do. It is not malice. My guess I'm just wired that way. If I look at some natural scenery and I enjoy it I'm not proving anything to anyone. Same with looking at women. You wouldn't stop me from looking at natural scenery why would you stop me from looking at boobs?

Regarding exaggerated behavior (showing off constantly to friends, constantly bringing up the subject or having a bunch of naked pictures all over their walls) is often not about any feeling of inadequacy. There are a lot of men do overdo it for social or peer pressure reasons (gets annoying sometimes). Women often complain about being expected to be or act a certain way and forget that men are also subjected to their peer's expectations (by both male and female peers) and expected to "act like a man". Well, checking boobs and asses is "acting like a man".

Most times however I wouldn't categorize this type of behavior as "proving the world their manhood" but more as just normal behavior. Speaking about women or checking out "the huge tits of that girl over there" many times feels the same (as neutral and as harmless) as speaking about the weather (just more enjoyable). I would feel a lot safer just checking out some girl's boobs than to engage any sort of discussion. No harm done and no one gets offended (if we are all guys).

What I don't understand is why this bothers women so much. Sure we compare and rate and look at and do all that silly stuff. But all this drama doesn't seem to be so much about men feeling inadequate but more about women feeling inadequate from "being subjected" to this behavior. Meaning all this seems to be more about your feelings than really about men's behavior.

Although my respect for some women might vary depending on how they behave or dress (sorry, just can't help it - I tried not to care but I just do!), it is NOTHING compared with the women-on-women constant bashing for being "half naked", "whores", or having "silicone implants, plastic surgery, and ten coats of make-up" or just low IQ. It just seems to me that most of the peer pressure on women seems to come from the female half of society.

Anyway this is just my 2 cents.

[sbk]

So its not enough that it bothers many women? Just that its natural and we shouldn't be bothered because you like it.

Ok fair enough, then men have zero right to be bothered by OPs avatar or other things that many women do simply because its natural and its just the way we are. Good to know.

[alexviseu]

So its not enough that it bothers many women? Just that its natural and we shouldn't be bothered because you like it. hmm.

Yes. That is pretty much it.

You being bothered by something is in no way, unto itself, justification to prevent others from doing what they like.

EDIT: As an example I am bothered by watching gays kissing and making out but I wouldn't even dream about trying to prevent them from doing it.

Ok fair enough, then men have zero right to be bothered by OPs avatar or other things that many women do simply because its natural and its just the way we are. Good to know.

It's not that men don't have zero right to be bothered, people can be bothered all they want. Same with women. Just don't expect to censor others just because you feel bothered.

Also not because it is natural, it would be the same thing even if it wasn't.

Although I don't even feel bothered about the avatar in question to tell the truth. Not sure why anyone would.

Edited January 19, 2014 by alexviseu

[EBlair48]

I generally don't intrude in the ladies forum however i would like to offer a couple comments

Who ever complained about your avatar is I suspect a bit insecure, I doubt it would bother the majority of men.

As far as visual stimulation is concerned I think at a basic genetic level that men are simply wired this way. Certain classical physical traits which men find attractive also tend to correspond to the ability to easily bear children. On top of this culturally we are bombarded with visual stimulation of the female form.

Women are wired differantly in that they are less enamoured of the males form but more attracted to his ability to be a partner, protector and provider.

I am well aware that the above may sound sexist but I am coming at this from a basic or genetic imperitive angle; not necessarily a culturally acceptable perspective.

well I see alot of men on this forum and others, demanding women ( or girls rather, they are usually referred as ) be built like teen age boys, In fact they tend to disparage large hips as most unsightly. I often have wondered if the real attraction to Thai women ( other than their willingness to act as servants) is their general propensity of resembling children, large heads on small bodies, no hips, flat chested , etc.

"..less enamoured of the males form but more attracted to his ability to be a partner, protector and provider."

Sexist poppycock. Woman like hunks and are not " wired " to be dependent on men as providers or protectors . Go to a Chippendale's show and see for yourself. Some women are certainly brainwashed they are somehow unable to fend for themselves, or cannot be independent but that is more from societal pressures.

Willingness to act as servants? What sort of Thai women have you encountered. That sounds like a typically misguided western view of Asian women. My wife is certainly no servant. She grew up in a house ruled by her mother - her father being the subservient one, and with a powerful grandmother who'd never be taken for granted.

If you're basing this view on women you've seen working in bars or freelancing for holidaying sexpests; serving is part of the job, and note that they're not representative of Thai women.

Flat chested? Do you live in Thailand?

Stop with the stereotyping and generalisations. It makes you sound stupid.

Sometimes there a reason for generalisations- like they're true. When I go to homes the Thai women serve and clean and the man sits on his butt.

Whan I read on forums what Thai ex pats look for in women, they are never to have an ounce of fat on them, that certainly doesn't sound like ease- of- labor- baby making adult women to me as one poster was arguing men look for in women. That sounds like well, adolescent females

And I see a lot and I mean a whole hell of a lot of foreign men with Thai women who look like children and I wonder, when they close their eyes at night during sex, do they feel like they are with a child? Is this sort of legal pedophilia? Is this the attraction for Thai women, The cleaning, the child like bodies?

Your wife's mother, sister cousin whatever ...Grand ma may well have " lorded it over the household.." But i bet she served up the chow right regular. (And I bet she was built like a 8 year old ..)

[EBlair48]

So its not enough that it bothers many women? Just that its natural and we shouldn't be bothered because you like it. hmm.

Yes. That is pretty much it.

You being bothered by something is in no way, unto itself, justification to prevent others from doing what they like.

EDIT: As an example I am bothered by watching gays kissing and making out but I wouldn't even dream about trying to prevent them from doing it.

Most men love watching women go at it with each other. Or they say they do.

[EBlair48]

What I love most about the women's forum is not one poster has snidely, aggressively, pedantically pointed out the misspelling in the OT . That's the real difference in men and women, women are just nicer people, less testosterone makes for more cooperative attitudes.

[self edits comment about how women really should be running the world. ( at least more openly )]

Edited January 19, 2014 by EBlair48

[Boo]

Children are taught from a young age that they can't get their own way all the time, sadly in many men they forget that important life lesson once they hit puberty.

[alexviseu]

So its not enough that it bothers many women? Just that its natural and we shouldn't be bothered because you like it. hmm.

Yes. That is pretty much it.

You being bothered by something is in no way, unto itself, justification to prevent others from doing what they like.

EDIT: As an example I am bothered by watching gays kissing and making out but I wouldn't even dream about trying to prevent them from doing it.

Most men love watching women go at it with each other. Or they say they do.

Oh yes. I meant men on men action. Women on women action really doesn't bother me at all.

[EBlair48]

^ Honestly I think they're both kinda gross. And so is porn, but pics of men like Shchekenberg !! Hey so what did happen to my sexy man pics ?

^^ And what happens at puberty to males to make them self centered horn dogged jackasses? Testosterone.

[Diddl]

I would like to add something more. Why do men have to look at nude women? Is it because they feel inadequate? Is it because they have to prove to the world that they are men? Is it because they can’t get a decent girl and so have to portray to the world that they are still sexually active and men? Or is it because all they want is a girl who has had silicone implants, plastic surgery, and ten coats of make-up so they can show her off to their mates and feel admired? And, and, and, don’t forget ! – is it because they want a woman with less brains than their low IQ?

I wonder. I have never had an honest answer to this predicament!

Well, speaking only for myself (all men are different believe it or not), I just enjoy looking at beautiful women. I don't know why I do, I just do. It is not malice. My guess I'm just wired that way. If I look at some natural scenery and I enjoy it I'm not proving anything to anyone. Same with looking at women. You wouldn't stop me from looking at natural scenery why would you stop me from looking at boobs?

Regarding exaggerated behavior (showing off constantly to friends, constantly bringing up the subject or having a bunch of naked pictures all over their walls) is often not about any feeling of inadequacy. There are a lot of men do overdo it for social or peer pressure reasons (gets annoying sometimes). Women often complain about being expected to be or act a certain way and forget that men are also subjected to their peer's expectations (by both male and female peers) and expected to "act like a man". Well, checking boobs and asses is "acting like a man".

Most times however I wouldn't categorize this type of behavior as "proving the world their manhood" but more as just normal behavior. Speaking about women or checking out "the huge tits of that girl over there" many times feels the same (as neutral and as harmless) as speaking about the weather (just more enjoyable). I would feel a lot safer just checking out some girl's boobs than to engage any sort of discussion. No harm done and no one gets offended (if we are all guys).

What I don't understand is why this bothers women so much. Sure we compare and rate and look at and do all that silly stuff. But all this drama doesn't seem to be so much about men feeling inadequate but more about women feeling inadequate from "being subjected" to this behavior. Meaning all this seems to be more about your feelings than really about men's behavior.

Although my respect for some women might vary depending on how they behave or dress (sorry, just can't help it - I tried not to care but I just do!), it is NOTHING compared with the women-on-women constant bashing for being "half naked", "whores", or having "silicone implants, plastic surgery, and ten coats of make-up" or just low IQ. It just seems to me that most of the peer pressure on women seems to come from the female half of society.

Anyway this is just my 2 cents.

Thank you alexviseu for your 2 cents and honest answer.

You say,” You wouldn't stop me from looking at natural scenery why would you stop me from looking at boobs?” – Please note that I am not stopping you doing anything you want to do as long as you don’t shove it in my face as seems to be happening all the time these days, especially in Europe. What you do in your private place or such places that provide such activity is fine by me, I just don’t want to participate in it, that is all. In fact, seeing naked men might prove to be a balance as someone said.

I have always had naturally big boobs and, since school days, I have always hidden them well because boys were always touching them without my permission. I wanted a guy who liked me or loved me for who I am, not for the curves I had. Does that seem too much to ask a guy? If that is all that men want, then I feel sorry for them. At least I found a husband who had a brain in his head and not in his trousers – difficult to find these days I think.

[Sheryl]

...believe me, there has been a few stirs regarding it. Even been accused of having the most sexist avatar on Thaivisa..lol!!

Hysterical really, seeing as he is merely a passive underwear model and not doing anything degrading or posing in an overtly provocative manner...unlike some of the avatars depicting females on here. .AND, thats merely one male image occasionally popping up on a few threads, its not like they have to deal with a whole ton of posters showing images of men like this. Maybe i should start looking for a sexier one

I have to say Lara that while I don't in the least bit care what avatar you have, this particular photo is IMO wholly unattractive.

I don't care for "man boobs" even if they are muscle rather than flab, for one thing.

And that jock strap look is not at all sexy.....

[alexviseu]

Thank you alexviseu for your 2 cents and honest answer.

You say,” You wouldn't stop me from looking at natural scenery why would you stop me from looking at boobs?” – Please note that I am not stopping you doing anything you want to do as long as you don’t shove it in my face as seems to be happening all the time these days, especially in Europe. What you do in your private place or such places that provide such activity is fine by me, I just don’t want to participate in it, that is all. In fact, seeing naked men might prove to be a balance as someone said.

I have always had naturally big boobs and, since school days, I have always hidden them well because boys were always touching them without my permission. I wanted a guy who liked me or loved me for who I am, not for the curves I had. Does that seem too much to ask a guy? If that is all that men want, then I feel sorry for them. At least I found a husband who had a brain in his head and not in his trousers – difficult to find these days I think.

Looking and having pictures/calendar of naked women in a wall is not the same thing as sexually harassing someone by speech or touch. Why do you feel that you were (being forced to be) participating on it? Or was it a preemptive strike against what you perceived (correctly or not) that was going to happen next?

Because otherwise just seems like you just didn't like their behavior and so just decided to force them to change it. Assuming you had just joined the company, the environment was the norm and instead of integrating/accepting it you decided to force change for no other reason than your feelings. Not saying changes aren't needed sometimes but one wouldn't expect a car workshop to suddenly change it's environment/culture just because they hired a woman.

If someone told me to tone it down I would do it without a problem. But that would be me being charitable and having empathy towards you being in a situation that made you uncomfortable (even if I thought you should just grow thicker skin). While ideally everyone would do the same, that is usually not how reality is. I just don't think it is correct to expect heaven and earth to be aligned according with what happens to bothers you.

I will not pretend to know what is to have big boobs and being objectified/being tried to be taken advantage off for just by being you for most of your life, but that said, it might sound douchie but, I just don't see that as any justification for any imposition on others.

I'm glad you found your "brain in his head" husband though.

[Diddl]

"The point is that yes, Diddl should have just ignored the sexual surrondings and moved on"

So why didn't my boss ignore the sexual surroundings that I was portraying? He likes girls and I like boys - what is the difference? Is it that only men can look at nudes and not women? Sounds one-sided to me! Sounds rather selfish also!

[alexviseu]

"The point is that yes, Diddl should have just ignored the sexual surrondings and moved on"

So why didn't my boss ignore the sexual surroundings that I was portraying? He likes girls and I like boys - what is the difference? Is it that only men can look at nudes and not women? Sounds one-sided to me! Sounds rather selfish also!

Oh but I agree with you! He was definitely applying double standards and got called on it. Hopefully he learned something from that.

It should be either no nudes or everyone should be able to have nudes. I would personally rather work with no nudes at all but (depending on the company's policy) as long as it is fair I mostly don't care.

[Diddl]

Thank you alexviseu for your 2 cents and honest answer.

You say,” You wouldn't stop me from looking at natural scenery why would you stop me from looking at boobs?” – Please note that I am not stopping you doing anything you want to do as long as you don’t shove it in my face as seems to be happening all the time these days, especially in Europe. What you do in your private place or such places that provide such activity is fine by me, I just don’t want to participate in it, that is all. In fact, seeing naked men might prove to be a balance as someone said.

I have always had naturally big boobs and, since school days, I have always hidden them well because boys were always touching them without my permission. I wanted a guy who liked me or loved me for who I am, not for the curves I had. Does that seem too much to ask a guy? If that is all that men want, then I feel sorry for them. At least I found a husband who had a brain in his head and not in his trousers – difficult to find these days I think.

Looking and having pictures/calendar of naked women in a wall is not the same thing as sexually harassing someone by speech or touch. Why do you feel that you were (being forced to be) participating on it? Or was it a preemptive strike against what you perceived (correctly or not) that was going to happen next?

Because otherwise just seems like you just didn't like their behavior and so just decided to force them to change it. Assuming you had just joined the company, the environment was the norm and instead of integrating/accepting it you decided to force change for no other reason than your feelings. Not saying changes aren't needed sometimes but one wouldn't expect a car workshop to suddenly change it's environment/culture just because they hired a woman.

If someone told me to tone it down I would do it without a problem. But that would be me being charitable and having empathy towards you being in a situation that made you uncomfortable (even if I thought you should just grow thicker skin). While ideally everyone would do the same, that is usually not how reality is. I just don't think it is correct to expect heaven and earth to be aligned according with what happens to bothers you.

I will not pretend to know what is to have big boobs and being objectified/being tried to be taken advantage off for just by being you for most of your life, but that said, it might sound douchie but, I just don't see that as any justification for any imposition on others.

I'm glad you found your "brain in his head" husband though.

We could discuss this forever because you fail to understand. I was not working for a strip club or porn video office, nor was I working for a TV or film production, so it is hardly expected. This was a professional office – hardly a good advertisement for the company.

OK then, if you are so easy-going and allow people to have complete freedom – how about if I smoked in your presence, assuming that you don’t smoke and object to smoking, and how about if I brought a bottle of whiskey to drink in the office everyday, AND, pray tell me, why couldn’t I have my nude men pictures in my office anyway? Was it demeaning to my boss?

It seems to me that freedom is not for everyone and those who have it, object more loudly when others find their flaunting distasteful!

I have nothing else to say.

[alexviseu]

Okay cheers! You are quite right on that regard, I just don't fully understand your point of view. Still, I think I got at least a sneak view of it, so thanks for that.

[Patsycat]

The new generation of Feminazis has just been born on TV.

Myself, i am getting old, my body is getting old. I really don't care if men like looking at porn or whatever. I have watched it myself. I don't care if women or men are offended by certain photos or films or books.

Just get on with your lives and enjoy your lives. And smile. And stop writing in big print.

[HeavyDrinker]

You could always break into my old school's Religious Education Department and nick all the Bibles as nearly every single one had willies scrawled in them;with Nativity scenes clearly proving particularly popular with the young artists unable to resist all them donkeys and Magi bending over mangers and that ....

Edited January 19, 2014 by HeavyDrinker

[LaraC]

The new generation of Feminazis has just been born on TV.

Myself, i am getting old, my body is getting old. I really don't care if men like looking at porn or whatever. I have watched it myself. I don't care if women or men are offended by certain photos or films or books.

Just get on with your lives and enjoy your lives. And smile. And stop writing in big print.

Jesus...when a woman utters the sentance "feminazi" to another woman just for having a voice, there seems to be no hope. Then again, as you said, you are getting old..so maybe your brain is addled. If you didnt want to enter into a constructive discussion, and merely posted to insult, then why not get back to your pornos...or knitting...or whatever those with arciac views do with their evenings.

[Patsycat]

The new generation of Feminazis has just been born on TV.

Myself, i am getting old, my body is getting old. I really don't care if men like looking at porn or whatever. I have watched it myself. I don't care if women or men are offended by certain photos or films or books.

Just get on with your lives and enjoy your lives. And smile. And stop writing in big print.

Jesus...when a woman utters the sentance "feminazi" to another woman just for having a voice, there seems to be no hope. Then again, as you said, you are getting old..so maybe your brain is addled. If you didnt want to enter into a constructive discussion, and merely posted to insult, then why not get back to your pornos...or knitting...or whatever those with arciac views do with their evenings.

And just because i voiced my opinion gives you the open road to attack me? I was not insulting you or your friend above with her petty little calander story.

I am just pointing out that i have got to a point in my life that all that shit does not worry me one iota. A guy can plaster his work space with naked women and men. it does not shake me or make me get on a high horse.

My brain is not addled at all. It has probably retained more than yours in a lifetime, How old are you?

PS that phrase feminazi was an inside joke to SBK and Boo.

Edited January 20, 2014 by Patsycat

[sustento]

You go Pats

[Patsycat]

I feel a belly dance coming on.....!!!

[Patsycat]

You go Pats

And why the f shouldn't i? I have my views and feelings about alot of things. But it is a while since i have been attacked like that.

OK, she may not understand the humour about the Feminazi Brigade a few years ago.

I can knit, what's so wrong with that. George Clooney can knit.