Another Black Day In Burma's History...

[tayto]

What kind of tourism is acceptable to Burma?

The kind that doesn't put any money into the hands of the scum of the earth, the junta.

Possible? no ,unless you can travel and enter illegally. If you cannot do this or unwilling to take the risk, stay at home , boycott the firms that support the junta, dissuade other would be tourists to do the same and write to your politician to voice your opinion.

Boycott the junta

[LaoPo]

1. Where did you get the info that the NCUB recommends that?

2. You're wrong here. One way or another the 'Regime' will ALWAYS benefit from the expenditures of the tourists

3. I suggest you read this:

http://www.burmacampaign.org.uk/action_holiday.html

1. This information came from a personal conversation I had with the Prime Minister. Because of my work with the Burmese community in my hometown, I was able to have a brief audience with him after a speaking engagement. Therefore, sorry, no link.

However I am sure someone in his office would be glad to answer any specific questions you may have via email.

May I kindly suggest that you contact this 'Prime Minister', since you spoke with him, and ask him HOW it is justified that HE has a different opinion than Mrs. Aung San Kuu Kyi and the government in exile, OK?

Please let us know the outcome of that answer.

LaoPo

[jimbob]

When I have been to Myanmar I have seen lots of people ecstatic to see foreign faces. If you spend money with small stores and food stalls the money will go to the people who need it. Economic sanctions impoverish the people, not the politicians. The politicians make their money selling drugs and other things.

If people can barely have enough to eat then how will they ever be able to change the government? If people go to Myanmar and are selective in how they spend their money they can help the people who need it.

Go back and read what the imprisoned leader says about being a tourist there ....

and realize that every dollar you spend in Burma benefits the repressive totalitarian government illegally in control of the country.

Yes trying to use non gov't businesses is a step IF you are going to go ... but better is NOT GOING ... and being active with the protest of the current Junta ...

it would be nice to see enough pressure brought to bear to force western companies out of Myanmar ... there would be a sudden collapse of the feeble Gov't and then freedom would follow.

Western countries do not provide the bulk of trade with Myanmar. China and illicit drug dealing does. All you are doing is starving an entire nation and making it harder for them to fight back against the Junta.

No food = no fight.

When countries like China began to open up economically then things began to progress (if gradually). Sanctioning and isolatign Myanmar only forces them to get more involved in drug dealing and oppresive policies.

40 years of sanctions and pressure have equalled nothihng but amplified misery.

[jimbob]

This editorial from Tales of Asia pretty much sums up my opinion. I think people should carefully consider the situation before deciding to visit Myanmar and if they do go to spend their money selectively so as little as possible goes to the Junta.

http://www.talesofasia.com/myanmar-editorial.htm

[LaoPo]

This editorial from Tales of Asia pretty much sums up my opinion. I think people should carefully consider the situation before deciding to visit Myanmar and if they do go to spend their money selectively so as little as possible goes to the Junta.

http://www.talesofasia.com/myanmar-editorial.htm

Hmmm...this 'talesofasia' stuff is the website of a single individual.

On this site there's also an article about 'Beer Myanmar'

excerpt:

"""Now since the Myanmar Junta own Beer Myanmar many people would take issue with supplying funds to the regime by manner of purchasing a bottle of their very, very good beer but the Junta own everything in the country, even the water, so anything you buy there will eventually find its way into the pockets of the military government anyway"""

So: whatever you try to avoid (buying stuff/food/drinks), by visiting the country, you will ALWAYS support the wallets of the Junta, one way or another....

LaoPo

[Rinrada]

Some GOOD Guys.....

Companies who have told the Burmese Junta to Go and take a Running ..F..k to yer selves.....

and Pulled out.....

Fancy a beer or other................Anheuser-Busch International Inc, Budweiser ...................US

Carlsberg.......................................................................Denmark

Danish beer maker Carlsberg responded to threats of a boycott or industrial action and dropped its plans to invest in a new brewery in Burma.

It said public opinion and media attention on human rights abuses in Burma prompted their decision.

Foster's...........................................................................Auz.

Heineken........................................................................

..Dutch

World's second largest brewer, Heineken announced the withdrawal of its $ 30 million investment in Burma

Interbrew (Labatt's)................................................................Canadian

Pepsi-Cola ..............

Seagram Company Limited.......................................................whisky

Pair of Shoes,Tin Flute or maybe a set of knickers for the lassies.......

Adidas

“Adidas-Salomon is very concerned about the human rights record of the military regime in Burma/Myanmar. Consequently we stopped

Ann Summers

“We do not currently buy direct from Burma

Arcadia Group plc

BHS (British Home Stores)

“Having reviewed the BHS supply chain..

Burton (UK)

The Burton Group announced on 3 July that it would end ..

Marks and Spencer

" We have an internal policy of not buying...

Laptops....

Hewlett-Packard

IBM

and may others including.......

Walt Disney....uncle walt

Woolworths

"It has been our policy for a number of years not to source

Rough Guides

“Rough Guides is a publisher committed to the freedom of individuals to travel and live in liberty: our guidebooks are written with the aim of empowering readers as they travel by providing practical information and carefully researched background on every aspect of the destination.

There are many parts of the world where human rights are suppressed but where Rough Guides feel justified in guiding and informing travellers to the best of our ability, in the belief that well-informed travellers can bring positive economic benefits and assist in the spread of ideas in both directions

[Octaviousbp]

LaoPo: You seem quite passionate about Burma, which is great. A heck of a lot better than apathy. However... I don't need to contact Dr. Sein Win, as I remember the talk quite clearly. How do I justify that he has a different opinion than Aung San Suu Kyi? Do I need to...? Is she the only one that has any ideas about the emancipation of the Burmese people?

Certainly, she has done more for the plight of the Burmese than any other individual, however to look to her as the sole salvation for the Burmese cause would be a huge mistake. If that is the case, than the junta has already won by placing her in jail. The truth is, thousands of people are actively working for the betterment of the Burmese situation, and many of them are bright people with great ideas. Most of them inspired by and following in the footsteps of The Lady. However, believe it or not... some of their opinions may differ to Aung San Suu Kyi's.

Or... maybe you're quoting outdated websites that aren't up to speed with her latest opinions regarding tourism. I'm not saying they are... but it is a possibility. Time's do change.

I believe the most progressive approach is one that addresses the matter in a critical fashion, not a fanatical one. Like I said earlier, we shouldn't be under the illusion that the resistance to the junta is a solid comprehensive mass. We are different people, coming from different parts of the world, with different ideas.

For what little I do with the Burmese groups that I work with here (compared to some of their unyielding efforts), I will continue to address the issues in as openminded way as possible.

I have noted your website's ideas, and will definitely mention to the people that I talk to about Burma that tourism is still a very controversial affair.

[jdinasia]

Sorry Oct ... you and our roving photographer that wants to take pics to sell to promote tourism into Myanmar seem to be the odd men out on this one.

I have wanted to go to the Nat festival in Bagan for ages ... however I am not going ... because to do so funds the Junta. Everything you do will fund the gov't there.

I have one friend that is an exception ... a westerner that went to Myanmar over a year ago as a monk (he ordained there). "Tourism" has no place in that country until they clean up their act!

Edited June 15, 2006 by jdinasia

[Octaviousbp]

Sorry Oct ... you and our roving photographer that wants to take pics to sell to promote tourism into Myanmar seem to be the odd men out on this one.

That's perfectly fine. For people who can't be bothered to go to the source themselves and contact NGOs and Burmese organizations regarding the issue are exactly the types who should not go to Burma. I would much rather the majority of the people assume a 100% travel boycott then the other way around.

The select few who wish to do the research (beyond websites perhaps? Email is a great way to get in touch with some people who are actively working for Burma's cause) and ask some of these organizations if it is okay to travel to Burma, are more likely to be the type to take the time and educate themselves, and pass on the information they gain.

And who knows, maybe the position has changed again... but I doubt it, since I was at a forum not more than a month ago. I have emailed two separate groups to see what their stance is. I'll report back.

One way or another, it is refreshing to see people are actually interested in this, and this debate being public can only be beneficial.

[Octaviousbp]

^^Note^^ By "Forum" I mean like in the old days, in person... not on the Internet. Sorry for the confusion. Bad choice of word.

[Sing_Sling]

It's a tough one, we sit in our comfy living rooms and say: don't visit Myanmar. No Suppor for Myanmar and the military regime.

Our housekeeper is from Myanmar, a lovely lady who speaks English well and has PR in Singapore, lived here for 10+ years but goes home every year to take money and goods to her family.

Should she not go and provide for her family?

She says that ordinary market and shopkeepers welcome tourists as every penny helps them live a slightly better life.

Who are we to take that away from them?

Big multinationals - absolutely, stay away and boycott the bastards in power.

ASEAN - get a spine and put real pressure on the junta to loosen their grip on power.

[jdinasia]

your Burmese housekeeper certainly isn't a 'tourist' ... hel_l i'd give her a little extra if I knew you :-)

I'll stick with passing no cash to the Junta even by trickle-down .... it just aint right.

I'd love to dive around the Malaysian islands .... but

[LaoPo]

I'd love to dive around the Malaysian islands .... but

you mean Myanmar islands surely...? Agree..must be still paradise there

LaoPo

[jimbob]

It's a tough one, we sit in our comfy living rooms and say: don't visit Myanmar. No Suppor for Myanmar and the military regime.

Our housekeeper is from Myanmar, a lovely lady who speaks English well and has PR in Singapore, lived here for 10+ years but goes home every year to take money and goods to her family.

Should she not go and provide for her family?

That is a good point. Probably the biggest foreign currency earner (apart from drugs) for their economy is workers abroad, esp. in Thailand. Should economic sanctions apply to money they try to send home? After all anything that supports their economy supports the Junta and it is the opinion of some that the only way to stop the Junta is to sanction the economy (and thus the people).

[jimbob]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/5080026.stm

Here is an interesting piece on Burma/Myanmar, some selected quotes:

The World Health Organization estimates that Burma spends $10 per person per year on healthcare, compared with its neighbours Thailand and Malaysia, which spend $160 and $218 respectively. One NGO estimated that the actual Burmese figure was even lower - more like $0.50.

The economic sanctions mean that the Junta will only spend on keeping themselves in power. This means little cash left over for schools and hospitals. When people say the Burmese are used to suffering and sanctions make no difference to them I get mad. HIV-Aids is becoming a major problem and it is far more deadly than simply not having enough to eat. Economic Sanctions impacts heavily on medical equipment that can be imported and will only compound the problem.

There are glimmers of hope, though, for even the poorest students.

A few charitable schools operate around the country. One in Mandalay provides free education to nearly 6,000 children. Passing tourists are welcome to visit, and foreign volunteers are actively sought to help teach English. It is a refreshing change from the majority of Burmese schools, where the doors remain firmly shut - not only to outsiders, but also to the hopes of Burmese children who want to improve their lives.

The few dollars that find their way to the Junta from tourists can be counterbalanced by the gift of education. Something the people will need if the Junta is to be gotten rid of.

Edited June 16, 2006 by jimbob

[Sing_Sling]

Aside from the nefarious moron Junta, I lay the blame squarely at the feet of the toothless imbecilic ASEAN leadership and their 'non-involvement in internal politics' policy.

Again it's all a matter of saving face . . . nooooooo, must not let the Generals lose face by telling them it's wrong to completely hold their population captive . . .

Oh, hang on . . . people in glass houses. It's obvious why ASEAN leaders don't push the hard line:

Indonesia - see Irian Jaya, Timor, killing of Christians, pogroms against Chinese, corruption

Thailand - Muslim subjugation, mass prostitution, drug highway

Malaysia - institutionalised racism, territorial disputation

... and the list goes on.

Basically it's a fraternity of hoodlums.

[jdinasia]

I'd love to dive around the Malaysian islands .... but

you mean Myanmar islands surely...? Agree..must be still paradise there

LaoPo

oOooooopsie ... yes in fact that was what I meant It was late! <but I was sober>

[Rinrada]

Just got this from Mark at UKs FREE BURMA........

I will be down at the Embssey on Monday if anyone fancies a cuppa tea....

Global Protests

Aung San Suu Kyi’s 61st Birthday

Global Protests

16 Jun 2006

On Monday 19th June Aung San Suu Kyi will spend her 61st birthday in detention. On that day she will have spent a total of 10 years and 238 days (3888 days) in detention.

She is isolated, allowed no visitors, her phone line has been cut, and her post is intercepted.

She is being denied access to regular medical care.

Protests demanding that the international community take action to secure the release of Aung San Suu Kyi will take place in more than 25 countries worldwide. Campaigners are calling on the United Nations Security Council to pass a binding resolution demanding the release of Aung San Suu Kyi and all political prisoners in Burma, and the restoration of democracy to the country.

The United States government recently announced it would push for the Council to pass a resolution on Burma.

“Aung San Suu Kyi could spend the rest of her life in detention if the Security Council continues to avoid its responsibility to tackle the situation in Burma,” said Yvette Mahon, Director of the Burma Campaign UK. “She has been praised by world leaders, but most have ignored her requests for practical international support. On her 60th birthday last year we saw a chorus of calls for her release, but this wasn’t followed by any concrete steps by the UN or governments to secure her release.”

The regime in Burma has consistently defied the United Nations, ignoring over a dozen calls for Aung San Suu Kyi’s release by the Secretary General, and 28 resolutions by the UN General Assembly and Human Rights Commission.

The following is a list of some of the actions taking place internationally:

UNITED KINGDOM

Campaigners are sending birthday cards to Aung San Suu Kyi.

Friday 16th June Edinburgh: Launch of newly commissioned portrait of Aung San Suu Kyi commissioned by Edinburgh City Council.

Monday 19th June 12.30-1.30pm: London. Jo Brand, & John Bercow MP join protest outside Burmese Embassy in London. 19a Charles St. London, nearest tube Green Park.

Monday 19th June 3.30-4.30pm: London All Party Parliamentary Group for Democracy in Burma to hold a meeting on Aung San Suu Kyi in the House of Commons.

The meeting will be addressed by two Burmese MPs and Yvette Mahon, Director of the Burma Campaign UK.

AUSTRIA

Monday 19th June: Vienna Birthday party with Austrian singer plus exhibition.

BELGIUM

Monday 19th June, Brussels:

CANADA

June. Birthday wish campaign.

CZECH REPUBLIC

Saturday 17th June Prague “Arrest yourself” protest.

IRELAND

Sunday 18th June Dublin: Speech at Speakers Corner, Temple-Bar

Monday 19th June, Dublin: Photo exhibition opens

ITALY

Postcard action campaign to Italian foreign ministry calling for action.

NETHERLANDS

Monday 19th June: 1

NORWAY

Monday June 19:

Bergen: Seminar at the Rafto Foundation: ‘Burma - a country behind bars’.

POLAND

Warsaw: Aung San Suu Kyi focus at a festival on human rights.

USA

Saturday 17th June 35 American states. ‘Arrest Yourself’ 24 hour protests.

ARREST YOURSELF protests will also take place in ....

Canada,

Australia,

Costa Rica,

France,

India,

Israel,

Italy,

Jamaica,

Japan,

Korea,

Malaysia,

Mexico,

Netherlands,

New Zealand,

Saudi Arabia,

Sweden,

Singapore,

Taiwan,

Thailand

and

United Kingdom.

[tayto]

It's a tough one, we sit in our comfy living rooms and say: don't visit Myanmar. No Suppor for Myanmar and the military regime.

Our housekeeper is from Myanmar, a lovely lady who speaks English well and has PR in Singapore, lived here for 10+ years but goes home every year to take money and goods to her family.

Should she not go and provide for her family?

That is a good point. Probably the biggest foreign currency earner (apart from drugs) for their economy is workers abroad, esp. in Thailand. Should economic sanctions apply to money they try to send home? After all anything that supports their economy supports the Junta and it is the opinion of some that the only way to stop the Junta is to sanction the economy (and thus the people).

Other sources of income for the Junta is that they put an income tax levy on all citizens abroad, regardless of employment or not.

No payment no entry, no exit and no passport renewal.

Also, all businesses have to be registered with the junta and the more sucessful ones are taken over by the regime.

Shame on Thailand, China, and India, etc for supporting these weeds.

[Rinrada]

Had a good lunchtime on the demo down at the Burmese (bstds)Embassy today in London.

About 100 people turned up including some of our MPs ...Torys as well..good on you Mr Bercow (UK Govs Opposition International Secretary)and quite a few well known faces.

Had a chat with some of the NDPs ministers in exile and signed "the Ladys"birthday card and wished them well.......

Sun was shining and everything seem peacefull.

Police were very good and friendly..even the guys with the H & Ks (of course )and didnt mind when a petition was presented at the front door of the Embassy but of course the B---sds wouldnt open it...O well....

[LaoPo]

Good job, Rinrada !

LaoPo

[Sing_Sling]

Good job, Rinrada !

LaoPo

Agree. Well done. In the lovely democracy we live in here, gatherings of four or more people are classified as an illegal assembly . . . Don't think there will be a repeat of the demo here . . .

[qualtrough]

The tourism boycott of Burma is a well-intentioned but useless idea. The only victims will be those poor Burmese deprived of any income they might have derived from tourism, however small. The affect on the military rulers will be miniscule--perhaps they will have to put off buying a third car, skip the occasional karaoke night, or dump one of their mistresses. The US has placed an almost total embargo on Cuba for some 40 years--what has that changed? Far more effective would be hordes of tourists packing their subversive ideas and flaunting the freedom that the Generals find anathema.

[Sing_Sling]

I'd agree with qualtrough to a certain extent. We view the situation like we expect the junta to care about the population . . . nope, nyet, non, nein . . .

Corrupt them from the inside sounds good . . . wouldn't work eitehr though . . . the grip on control is too great.

[Rinrada]

all of these questions have been asked before ...many times.. and have been addressed....however...

Doesn’t contact with tourists encourage democracy and prevent abuses in Burma more than isolation?

“Burmese people know their own problems better than anyone else.

They know what they want - they want democracy - and many have died for it.

To suggest that there’s anything new that tourists can teach the people of Burma about their own situation is not simply patronising - it’s also racist.”

Burma will be here for many years, so tell your friends to visit us later.

Visiting now is tantamount to condoning the regime.” Aung San Suu Kyi.

so now what do we do about this guy....have you ever bought one?

As part of the Tourism Boycott, the Burma Campaign is calling for a consumer boycott of Lonely Planet guide books until the company withdraws its guide to Burma.

Lonely Planet pubishes a guide to Myanmar (Burma) and actively promotes tourism to Burma, despite knowing the many ways that tourism lends support to the brutal dicatorship in Burma.

In contrast, the Rough Guides has adopted an ethical stance with regard to Burma

[ourmanflint]

I'm glad to read all the replies that are not just "name calling", and I am resolute that I will visit Myanmar. It is my choice after all. I do not believe in the kind of boycotts advocated by some here, because I believe forces such as the military junta in Myanmar, are best not left to their own devices and the more tourists there are, then the juntas cannot operate openly in those areas. Is that not progress of a kind? Of course there are those closed off areas where we are not allowed to go and yes for sure the Junta will be operating at full strength there, the same as they were in areas that once closed are now open to tourism. So I believe the more pressure there is to open all areas to tourism, the less likely the junta will be able to cover up their violations. Is this not a reasonable view??

Also I hope that the people here opposed to tourism are appalled more by the treatment of indigenous Shan and Karen peoples than they are about the treatment of Aung San Suu Kyi. Her treatment is nothing compared to that given to hundreds of other political activists throughout the world by various regimes, so lets put that into its proper perspective.

As for the possibilty that I might sell images of Myanmar, I'm not the first funnily enough, there are over 8000 images of Myanmar on Alamy alone all being offered for sale to anyone who wants them. I am still committed but.... I will go there first with an open mind, and I will talk to ordinary people, and if the consensus is that they want tourism, then frankly "up yours" to all you armchair activists. If they tell me otherwise and support the ban proposed by Aung San Suu Kyi, the I would reconsider.

[LaoPo]

I'm glad to read all the replies that are not just "name calling", and I am resolute that I will visit Myanmar. It is my choice after all. I do not believe in the kind of boycotts advocated by some here, because I believe forces such as the military junta in Myanmar, are best not left to their own devices and the more tourists there are, then the juntas cannot operate openly in those areas. Is that not progress of a kind? Of course there are those closed off areas where we are not allowed to go and yes for sure the Junta will be operating at full strength there, the same as they were in areas that once closed are now open to tourism. So I believe the more pressure there is to open all areas to tourism, the less likely the junta will be able to cover up their violations. Is this not a reasonable view??

Also I hope that the people here opposed to tourism are appalled more by the treatment of indigenous Shan and Karen peoples than they are about the treatment of Aung San Suu Kyi. Her treatment is nothing compared to that given to hundreds of other political activists throughout the world by various regimes, so lets put that into its proper perspective.

As for the possibilty that I might sell images of Myanmar, I'm not the first funnily enough, there are over 8000 images of Myanmar on Alamy alone all being offered for sale to anyone who wants them. I am still committed but.... I will go there first with an open mind, and I will talk to ordinary people, and if the consensus is that they want tourism, then frankly "up yours" to all you armchair activists. If they tell me otherwise and support the ban proposed by Aung San Suu Kyi, the I would reconsider.

Flint: what you're writing is nothing else than trying to justify yourself.

Well, we're living in a democratic world aren't we...? Does that also count for the country and it's people where you want to take your pictures and sell them (for your own benefit)?

Or are you telling here that you want to donate the money to the good cause of the Burmese (like the Shan and Karen people) you're talking about.

Now, that would be generous of you!

LaoPo

[qualtrough]

Flint, Enjoy your visit to Burma. It sounds like you are very aware of the issues and will act in a responsible manner. I can assure you that your visit will be appreciated by the vast majority of the people you encounter, and whatever you learn can only help make their plight even better know back home. While I respect the motivation of those who support a boycott, I think that it is a misguided idea that only hurts the 'little' people in Burma.

[LaoPo]

Flint, Enjoy your visit to Burma.

That says it all

LaoPo

[qualtrough]

LaoPao, why don't you get off your high horse? If Flint visits Burma, meets and shares views with ordinary people, sees some of the many historic and scenic highlights the country has to offer, why shouldn't he enjoy it? No one denies that Burma has a terrible government. The issue is whether or not visiting the country acts to prolong or lengthen the time the current rulers are in power. Nothing I have read or learned about Burma leads me to believe that a tourism boycott will in any way affect the thinking of the military, and I think powerful arguments can be made for the case that increased tourism would be a positive rather than a negative factor in the long run. You and Aung San Suu Kyi may think that, "Visiting now is tantamount to condoning the regime" but I and many others, including many Burmese, disagree. By the way, there are many countries in this world guilty of human rights violations. Would you mind sharing your list of those that we should not visit with Forum visitors?