My gf wants to have an abortion.

[LaraC]

It never ceases to amaze me when the 'abortion' (infant murder) topic comes up how every man/woman and his/her dog tries to justify the logic behind it all.

1. Years of research have found that ripping an unborn baby apart (aka abortion) can cause serious injuries to it and probable death.

1. Years of research have found that ... (an) abortion can cause serious injuries to it (the fetus) and probable death.

I stopped reading after that gem of a statement ...

.

I know, right!! ..face palm moment if ever i saw one!

[LaraC]

The worry is that the herbal poision that she drank for 12 days might cause defects / abnormalities and that this can only be determined at 16 to 20 weeks with the scans. It that stage of the babies growth its just too cruel to proceed with an abortion

This is one of the hardest things Ive ever had to deal with and probably the same for her. Its another one of life's lessons to be learnt the hard way.

I can imagine this is a very tough situation if you are both now considering to go through with the pregnancy.

I hope you can find out more information about this herbal medicine she took and if it could have potential side-effects or not.

If you do decide to go ahead, i hope you both have a healthy child and a happy relationship.

If however it is decided to abort, i hope you both can build on your relationship together and this does not fracture it. For, from what you described about your parter and how you come across, it sounds like you have all the right ingredients for a good relationship. You obviously are a caring person.

[Daniel Boon]

LaraC .... exactly where do you sit in the 'man/woman and his/her dog tries to justify the logic '

[Daniel Boon]

once were warriors ... infanticide ('killing' babies) has been and still is practiced the world over ... unfortunate as it is, guilt tempers your opinion ...

[LaraC]

LaraC .... exactly where do you sit in the 'man/woman and his/her dog tries to justify the logic '

um..thats a tad cryptic for me. What exactly are you asking?

[Daniel Boon]

LaraC ... my apologies ... this referencing system had me attribute 'once were warriors' observation to you ... sorry.

" It never ceases to amaze me when the 'abortion' (infant murder) topic comes up how every man/woman and his/her dog tries to justify the logic behind it all"

[Sheryl]

Please let us keep the focus on the OP's concerns.

And also please let us refrain from the blame game re how the pregnancy occurred. We do not know the circumstanced (no contraceptive is 100% effective) and regardless I am sure both he and his gf have berated themselves more than enough over it. The pregnancy has happened and now must be dealt with.

Regarding the possible effects of the herbal "poison" taken on the fetus, this was not an FDA approved drug and there has been no research on its possible teratogenic effects. There have also probably not been many babies born after exposure to it, given that it is used by women who trying to abort (it may not work, but they will go on to other measures). So this is an unknown.

From the OP's last post it sounds like his gf remains adamant in her decision to abort, and that his offer to marry her and help raise the child (which is as much as he can do in this situation) did not change this. This is as I expected since if there is any room for possibly having the child a woman will usually discuss the pregnancy with her partner before seeking to abort. She did not.

Having a baby out of wedlock is not an option in Asia, just cannot be done. It is not like in the West. (More like in the West 100 years ago or more). Outside of the very poorest/most marginalized segments of society, it is simply unthinkable. But as you have offered marriage, this is not really the issue.

OP, as I previously posted you need to understand that the reasons she gives, rational as they are, are not the whole story though they are all that she can articulate. There is something deeper at work - -a sort of gut reaction to the pregnancy. It is in her body but her mind, emotions, even her spirit reject it. That is not a choice, it is a spontaneous response. She is just not ready to be pregnant at this time and this is not something she can control or change. It is impossible to force a woman to continue a pregnancy in that circumstance and can be very dangerous to try to do so.

If there were a physical problem -- for example, if it were an ectopic pregnancy -- that made it impossible for the pregnancy to safely continue you would probably be able to accept that. Try to understand that this is the same thing, although the problem is not physical. Being pregnant involves a woman's entire being, not just her body, and her whole being has to be able to deal with it, to day "yes" to it on a very primal level, or else it cannot continue.

Years ago when I was an abortion counselor it was right after laws had been liberalized where I lived so the issue had been constantly in the papers and a hot topic of debate. I found that quite a few of the clients I saw were (or had been) "pro life", some had even been anti-abortion activists. But everything changed when they themselves were in the situation. They (or their partner) would come in and the first thing they'd say would be "I don't believe in abortion, but..." and then there'd be a long description of why their particular situation was utterly unique. Except it never was. ...they had just never appreciated these considerations before, had somehow assumed that women having abortions were just callous, or immoral, or selfish/unthinking. I remember one pro-life activist telling me that the reason her case was unique was that having the baby would have a harmful impact on her other children and other family members: "If's its just for yourself, it's different.” But how often aren't there other people who will be affected? Out of literally hundreds of clients, of all walks of life, I never did meet a single one who was having an abortion just for convenience or without serious, morally aware, thought. And I did not find those with anti-abortion views to be any more able to sustain a pregnancy in adverse conditions. Nor did those with pro-choice views always abort an unplanned pregnancy; often they'd find that they could continue it. Opinions and theoretical beliefs -- even those tenaciously held -- exist on one plane and real life situations occur on another one altogether. And they are a whole lot more complicated than it is possible to imagine until you have been in those shoes.

People on the whole become more conservative in their views on social issues as they age; yet surveys of physicians have found the opposite happens as regards abortion and euthanasia-related matters. Doctors become far less judgmental and more open minded with time. This is because they start out with beliefs based on what they have thought/imagined on these topics but repeated exposure to real life situations erodes that completely. Moral absolutes don't fit into the real world as well as it seems, in theory, that they should.

All we can do is try to do the right thing, with a full and open heart, hopefully taking into account the totality of a given situation and all the beings involved. And often we can never be sure, even years later, if we did right or not. But I think the essence of being a moral person lies not in necessarily always making the right choice (which we do not have the omnipotence to even identify with certainty). Rather it lies with the attempt, the effort. Personally I have found that it is easy to do wrong (sometimes grave wrong, serious harm) when acting based on rigid views of right and wrong, but that you will not go too far wrong if you act out of a base of sincere compassion for all involved.

I just recently had a work assignment that involved abortion laws and services in Asian countries and the title of one of the surveys I used (on abortion clients in Viet Nam) strikes me as summing it all up -- "Real Life is Different".

OP however this ends you will probably always wonder/worry about the moral rightness of it. That is normal and in many ways good, it is the hallmark of a genuinely moral person. It takes honesty and humility to doubt one's choices and actions. And honesty, humility and willingness to question one's assumptions and doubt one's decisions -- as opposed to rigid self-righteousness - are what makes a truly good person. You will probably be less inclined to judge others in this situation in the future, if you had such inclinations before (a lot of people with anti-abortion views do), and maybe to be less judgmental in general, and that's to the good as well, it's a maturing process. This may help as regards your previously expressed concern that you would resent your gf for having an abortion and that this would harm your relationship. From your last post, I sense that you have gained some insight and compassion towards her and an appreciation that this is not a simple matter. Whether or not the relationship lasts, this is good. She is obviously someone you deeply care for who has been important in your life and you don't want to damage that even if it proves the case that you and she cannot be together for life.

I think you can and should take comfort from the fact that you have done what was in your power to do, to avert the abortion. You may find it helpful to pray for guidance, to be shown what if anything more you should do or so. And also pray for help in understanding your gf and responding to her needs, which as I think you realize are legitimate and important -- this is very hard for her too, and she has a lot at stake here. Even if you hold an embryo to be identical to a full human being, that does not make it of more value than its mother and the other human beings in this situation.

[advancebooking]

Im the OP who wrote this thread.

Today my gf talked about 2 things.....

1. get on the internet and research sources regarding the herbal stuff she took and see if there is any proof or evidence of birth defects after ingestion. She did this and told me that she read one forum where a dr stated many thai women drink the drug when the first find out they get pregnant. The source states that they ended up having a healthy baby. I might try to contact the manufacturer.

2. meeting my gf's brother and his partner who is a pharmacist. My gf says her brother is a lovely guy and I thus thought it would be a good strategy for us to tell him about the pregnancy as he might positively influence his sister. If we meet and have a meal where there is wifi I thought that my gf could show the information to the pharmacist and see what her opinion is.

I respect and love my gf so much and know that its a womens choice. I can only have hope that a positive outcome comes out of this situation as Im finding all of this very upsetting - as my gf is as well.

[thepool]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Im the OP who wrote this thread.

Today my gf talked about 2 things.....

1. get on the internet and research sources regarding the herbal stuff she took and see if there is any proof or evidence of birth defects after ingestion. She did this and told me that she read one forum where a dr stated many thai women drink the drug when the first find out they get pregnant. The source states that they ended up having a healthy baby. I might try to contact the manufacturer.

2. meeting my gf's brother and his partner who is a pharmacist. My gf says her brother is a lovely guy and I thus thought it would be a good strategy for us to tell him about the pregnancy as he might positively influence his sister. If we meet and have a meal where there is wifi I thought that my gf could show the information to the pharmacist and see what her opinion is.

I respect and love my gf so much and know that its a womens choice. I can only have hope that a positive outcome comes out of this situation as Im finding all of this very upsetting - as my gf is as well.

To be blunt it sounds as if you are causing much of the g/f's upset. Read Sheryl,s post above.

Then reflect.

[David48]

OP ... good luck what ever the decision is made ...

[lalitv74]

Hey dude

it is unfortunate that you are going through this situation but i would suggest both of you to sit together and take wise decisions. as you sad above she is a very intelligent girl i dont think you both would take a wrong decision and why would you resent her for this decision, i mean i respect your beliefs abut she is not ready for a baby now because of all 3 reasons and these 3 reason sounds genuine to me. other thing is rather than taking medicines i suggest you to go for an abortion and make sure this mistake wont happen again. you can have a baby when ever you want but time is not right now.

make wise decisions.

Lalit Verma

Edited March 19, 2014 by Sheryl
commercial url link unrelated to topic removed by Moderator

[Bkungbank]

In aspect on religion there are many bad thing will follow :

1) The fetus have spirit already, if she is Thai she should know will follow and make her ill always, this the good point to talk to her not to do that before too late.

2) The unborn cannot reborn waiting many years which really unfair to treat your own child this way.

3) If you not ready give up for adoption mix farang and Thai many people wanted to be the baby parent

4) Stop taking Chinese medicine as will have bad affect on the baby brain

5) Gift from God don't refuse even you can be single parent yourself if she need go for study.

6) Take tofu drink good for the baby.

[thepool]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

In aspect on religion there are many bad thing will follow :

1) The fetus have spirit already, if she is Thai she should know will follow and make her ill always, this the good point to talk to her not to do that before too late.

2) The unborn cannot reborn waiting many years which really unfair to treat your own child this way.

3) If you not ready give up for adoption mix farang and Thai many people wanted to be the baby parent

4) Stop taking Chinese medicine as will have bad affect on the baby brain

5) Gift from God don't refuse even you can be single parent yourself if she need go for study.

6) Take tofu drink good for the baby.

Judging by this comment (above) it would appear this topic has run its course and should be closed down.

[Sheryl]

I will leave that decision to the OP.

[Nayet]

Killing a baby is a very sensitive topic.

why should she want to kill a baby..

Let's dispense with the highly charged terms, shall we?. The OP's GF is about 5 weeks along. It's a collection of cells, not a baby.

As to the OP's situation, IMO he should make his position on the matter clear and then come to terms with the reality that she is going to do whatever she wants to do.

It's the beginning of a NEW LIFE, of a human being.

It is a living creature - like a dung beetle or an ant - but it is only a potential human being. A five-week-old fetus does not feel pain, let alone the full range of human experience.

Also, if the OP's religious convictions preclude abortion, I would like to know how his lady got pregnant in the first place. I don't know of any religions that endorse pre/extra-marital sex but condemns abortion.

[monim]

I think your Girl Friend is right. This is not the right time to have a baby. You should support her. In this period support from pratner is really essential. If you want to take baby than wait for 2-3 years and try againg.

[HooHaa]

In aspect on religion there are many bad thing will follow :

1) The fetus have spirit already, if she is Thai she should know will follow and make her ill always, this the good point to talk to her not to do that before too late.

2) The unborn cannot reborn waiting many years which really unfair to treat your own child this way.

3) If you not ready give up for adoption mix farang and Thai many people wanted to be the baby parent

4) Stop taking Chinese medicine as will have bad affect on the baby brain

5) Gift from God don't refuse even you can be single parent yourself if she need go for study.

6) Take tofu drink good for the baby.

ok, there we have it then. the voice of reason.

[jongkolkhoo]

Perhaps as a "mature" gentleman you might want to practice safe sex next time with a partner you don't want to have a baby with.

The gentleman wants to have a baby. Get your facts correct. Besides that point,

I paid an accumulated bill close to 1 mil to have a baby ( test tube) and was unsuccessful.

And I would suggest that the op try talking to gf and tell her his point of view.

[thepool]

Suspect the OP is long gone and some of the comment here is now both bizarre and potentially offensive.

[Tatsujin]

Perhaps as a "mature" gentleman you might want to practice safe sex next time with a partner you don't want to have a baby with.

The gentleman wants to have a baby. Get your facts correct. Besides that point,

I paid an accumulated bill close to 1 mil to have a baby ( test tube) and was unsuccessful.

And I would suggest that the op try talking to gf and tell her his point of view.

Did you read a different thread to me?

As far I can see, they'd only been "dating" a short while, the baby was an accident and is with a girl that doesn't want a baby, hence my comment.

And what has a test tube baby got to do with anything?

Yes, he should be talking to her.

[Sheryl]

An unhelpful post has been removed.

[Martouf]

Mechai Viravaidya's Foundation would be a good place to go. It's in Sukhumvit Soi 12 (next to Cabbages & Condoms). They can provide good, legal advice and can also provide solutions should your GF decide to proceeed.

http://www.pda.or.th/e_index.asp

A friend just asked me about a similar problem - is the Meechai Viravaidya's foundation in the same building as the PDA headquarters ? Do you know how much they charge?

Thanks

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Sheryl]

I believe the foundation is in the same building, yes. But it sounds like what you are concerned about is not the foundation but the PDA clinic.

Their charges are minimal - under 1,000 baht for most things -- and are waived in case of inability to pay.

Be forewarned though that it is a very "no frills" place. Perfectly safe but no hand-holding or amenities. Farangs are usually fine with it (some male TV members have opted to have vasectomies there, and a number of female TV members have used their FP and other services). But I find that middle/upper class Thai women sometimes react negatively to it.

[Martouf]

I believe the foundation is in the same building, yes. But it sounds like what you are concerned about is not the foundation but the PDA clinic.

Their charges are minimal - under 1,000 baht for most things -- and are waived in case of inability to pay.

Be forewarned though that it is a very "no frills" place. Perfectly safe but no hand-holding or amenities. Farangs are usually fine with it (some male TV members have opted to have vasectomies there, and a number of female TV members have used their FP and other services). But I find that middle/upper class Thai women sometimes react negatively to it.

Thanks Sheryl

Yes I think my friend needs the PDA clinic

Do you know if this is the address

Population and Community Development Association (PDA)

6 Sukhumvit 12, Klongtoey, Bangkok 10110

Tel : (+66)2229-4611-28 Fax : (+66)2229-4632

E-Mail : [email protected]

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Sheryl]

Yes, that is it.

[kriswillems]

I can't add much to this discussion because, like said, it's up to the gf to decide.

But I do believe a father can take care of a baby. I took care of our son most of the time (like 90% of the time), since he was born, because my wife was busy with work. Much depends on your personality. But it might be an option to take into account - you taking care of the baby.

It's strange how our lives can be so different. We went through hell for getting a baby, 6 years long, we tried everything. And you're going through hell because you get one. I wish my wife and I were in your situation. Life is unfair to many of us.

Good luck.

[kriswillems]

Maybe a bit of information about the Chinese medicines she took.

The full bottle (750 gram) has the following herbs in it :

Aglaia pyramidata Hance 15 gram

Leonurus cardiaca 10 gram

Chinese foxglove (root) 15 gram

They are said to stimulate the uterus (and cause menstruation).

My wifes family has been selling traditional herbs for years and nobody ever got sick from them, but I didn't seem them get better either. It think most herbs just have a placebo effect.

I think it's impossible to say if these herbs did something to the baby, but for sure you wouldn't want to take them if were pregnant and wanted to have a baby.

Edited April 1, 2014 by kriswillems

[advancebooking]

I'm the OP that raised this thread.

The latest is that my gf has decided to keep the baby. From the beginning I told her I would support her decision- whatever it was. She confided in her 'senior' at work and another friend and changed her mind thankfully.

I have since met her parents a few times and obviously we have not told them about the pregnancy.

I told my gf that I would support her studying her residency next year. I will partake in raising the child with help from a nanny whilst she studies.

I have done research on the herbal medicine product that she consumed at the early stages (refer photo) and an experienced Obstetrician mentioned yesterday that many thai women take it when their period does not come. The dr said that in most cases there are no birth defects.

When I raised this topic it was a difficult time and I appreciate all the opnions posted above- especially Sheryl the moderator. The boss of TV should be giving her a pay rise.

I'm ok for this thread to be closed but its up to Sheryl.

cheers

[Sheryl]

Glad to hear it has worked out.

Topic closed at OP's request.