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Thawil saga reveals Bangkok not serious about peace in South


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EDITORIAL
Thawil saga reveals Bangkok not serious about peace in South

The Nation

The court has reinstated the security chief, but his removal in the first place has caused much damage

BANGKOK: -- The conflict in Thailand's southernmost provinces has always been held hostage to Bangkok politics. The ongoing fiasco involving reappointed National Security Council chief Thawil Pliensri and the Yingluck administration is a case in point.


Thawil was originally removed from his post because Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra needed to shuffle officials to make room at police headquarters for her brother-in-law, Pol General Priewphan Damapong.

Thawil and his deputy, Somkiart Boonchoo, were moved to inactive posts. Since then, Somkiart has been asked to serve as an adviser in government peace talks with the insurgents in the South.

Humiliated, Thawil took his case to court and won. The Administrative Court deemed his transfer unlawful and ordered him reinstated. He has five months left before retirement.

In a way, justice has been restored. The verdict was not only a victory for Thawil but also a warning to this and any future government about their dealings with bureaucrats, especially when it comes to transfers.

Nevertheless, there is no denying that the Thawil saga inflicted damage on the country, especially the deep South, where an ongoing insurgency has claimed more than 5,000 lives since January 2004.

When Yingluck came to power in 2011, she and her brother Thaksin were determined to put together a peace process for the South and turned to Kuala Lumpur to help facilitate talks.

Yet they chose to ignore the fact that Thawil and Somkiart had, since 2005, been working behind the scenes on peace talks overseen by a European mediator. Yingluck and her brother scrapped those efforts and began a new process, with Kuala Lumpur as broker and trusted individuals such as then-National Security chief Lt- General Paradon Pattanatabut and Pol Colonel Thawee Sodsong, head of the Southern Border Provinces Administrative Centre, in key positions.

Unfortunately, these individuals were appointed more for their loyalty than their experience, a practice long followed by Thai governments and one that denies our bureaucrats the opportunities to develop deeper knowledge and capability.

Who is to say that Thawil and Somkiart would have not done a better job as peacemakers than Thawee and Paradon?

Were the safety and wellbeing of southerners at the forefront of the Yingluck government's calculations when it appointed Thawee and Paradon, two of the ruling Pheu Thai Party's most trusted men, to lead the peace talks?

Thawil says his mission, before he retires in September, will be to review policy on the conflict in the South and on the peace process. No one is sure what kind of contribution he can make, given that peace talks have hit a brick wall.

One thing he could do is to push for more self-critical reflection among Thai officials - especially the security and intelligence community - over how to achieve peace with the Malays of Patani.

It's no secret that there is a lack of unity among the various state agencies working in the South. Meanwhile the actions of government delegates at peace talks over the past 12 months suggest they are, at best, indifferent to the task at hand. For instance, they rarely bother to gather for preparatory meetings before showing up at the negotiating table in Kuala Lumpur.

The residents of the deep South, as well as those sent to work there, deserve better.

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-- The Nation 2014-05-02

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this shows us just how bad yl and the ptp really are, they appoint people to positions out of loyalty/nepotism and nothing to do with their abil;ity. Besides this case look at thai airlines, they replaced the man that had it running really great and turning a profit to put in a cronnie that totally f***ed it up and here someone that could organize a p*ss up in a brewery just like all the other appointments they have made.Yl and the ptp have a lot to answer for, fair enough if their appointments do a good job but when they <deleted> up the country they deserve to be ripped apart for what they have done.

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Division, taking sides, pointing fingers is the foundation of party politics..if everybody agreed on everything and everybody there would be no need for party politics. Politicians realize this... and that would put them out of a potential career... so it is in their best interests to continue to divide the masses, appoint people loyal to "their" cause and attack those who oppose... Imagine if they had just stopped after the defeat of the amnesty bill and then moved on to something more positive...now in my mind had anyone of the opposition been really sincere about moving the country forward they could have put all the millions (billions?) of baht, all their political power..( including the shadow-players) on healing the problems in the south. In Suthep's back yard where I am sure he has even more clout than in Bangkok They could have mounted an incredible peace campaign and could have fronted potential new leaders for the future of the country overall by giving them a successful campaign platform of solving the problems in the South.. Leaders that could unite Thailand... leaders that stood for something, leaders that led something...what an incredibly positive achievement. one that All Thais would be proud of...and perhaps could unite rather than divide further. Now that would have been a victory worth claiming...a victory for all Thais. Sadly it will not be the case because this is a power grab pure and simple with the personal possession of the trough as the only prize. They spent it all on division. taking sides. making threats and destabilization.

Reform was a paper tiger from the start and will take a long time...not two weeks not two years maybe two decades..and now unfortunately Thawil will just bide his time till retirement.

( not saying he could have done anything anyway ).

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Yet they chose to ignore the fact that Thawil and Somkiart had, since 2005, been working behind the scenes on peace talks overseen by a European mediator. Yingluck and her brother scrapped those efforts and began a new process, with Kuala Lumpur as broker and trusted individuals such as then-National Security chief Lt- General Paradon Pattanatabut and Pol Colonel Thawee Sodsong, head of the Southern Border Provinces Administrative Centre, in key positions.



Who is to say that Thawil and Somkiart would have not done a better job as peacemakers than Thawee and Paradon?



To be honest the answer is staring them in the face. "Thawil and Somkiart had, since 2005, been working behind the scenes on peace talks". So Thawil had been working on peace talks for 6 years. How well was that going then? coffee1.gif



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This conflict begun under Taksin regime. The south is a stronghold of Dem,and for PTP settle the conflict in South is not a priority.......

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The South Thailand Insurgency is an ethnic separatist insurgency taking place in Southern Thailand, predominantly in the Malay Pattani region, made up of the four southernmost provinces of Thailand. In Thailand it is known simply as Unrest in southern Thailand (Thai: ความไม่สงบในชายแดนภาคใต้ของประเทศไทย). The former Sultanate of Patani was conquered by the Thais in 1785 and has been governed by them ever since. Thai ownership was confirmed by the Anglo-Siamese Treaty of 1909. Although low level separatist violence has occurred in the region for decades, the campaign escalated in 2004, occasionally spilling over into other provinces... more much more here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Thailand_insurgency

to include...

In July 2005, Thaksin Shinawatra, then Prime Minister of Thailand, assumed wide-ranging emergency powers to deal with the insurgency. In September 2006, Army Commander Sonthi Boonyaratkalin was granted an extraordinary increase in executive powers to combat the unrest.[6]

Soon afterwards, on 19 September 2006, Sonthi and a military junta ousted Thaksin in a coup. Despite conciliatory gestures from the junta, the insurgency continued and intensified. The death toll, 1,400 at the time of the coup, increased to 2,579 by mid-September 2007.[7]

Despite little progress in curbing the violence, the junta declared that security was improving and that peace would come to the region by 2008.[8] The death toll surpassed 3,000 in March 2008.[9] During the Democrat-led government of Abhisit Vejjajiva, Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya noted a "sense of optimism" and said that he was confident of bringing peace into the region within 2010.[10] However, by the end of 2010, insurgency-related violence had increased, confounding the government's optimism.[11] Finally in March 2011, the government conceded that violence was increasing and could not be solved in a few months.[12]

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they rarely bother to gather for preparatory meetings before showing up at the negotiating table in Kuala Lumpur

This is the Thai way...lack of serious commitment...on every level...

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Selective posts would have you believe that the hightened level of violence in the South started in 2004 or 2005. This is patently untrue.

It all went wrong from 2001 when Thaksin took power.

Shortly after Thaksin Shinawatra became prime minister in early 2001, violence in Patani was once again on the rise. For political reasons, Thaksin set out to undermine key elements of the Prem era deal, disbanding the Southern Border Provinces Administrative Center (a government agency which had dispensed patronage and worked closely with Malay Muslim political religious leaders) and putting the police, rather than the army, in charge of security in the region (Thaksin had once been a police officer). Thaksin’s missteps coincided with a revival of insurgent activity, as a new generation of militants had become increasingly disillusioned with their former leaders. A bold attack on a Narathiwat army base in January 2004 saw four soldiers killed and a large cache of weapons seized, and marked a return to fully-fledged insurgency. Major incidents followed that year, most notably simultaneous attacks on 12 security checkpoints and bases in April, culminating in the bloody storming of the historic Kru-Ze mosque. This was followed in October by the Tak Bai incident, in which 78 Malay Muslim men were suffocated during their incarceration in military trucks. All of these incidents were huge propaganda victories for the insurgents.
The only other significant attempt at reconciliation between Bangkok & the deep south was Surayud's apology for the Tak Bai deaths. It obviously wasn't enough as no army (especially Panlop) or police have been brought to justice for Tak Bai & Krue Se. The worst ever effort was Chalerm's drunken visit to Malaysia, supposedly to hold negotiations with the separatists.
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this shows us just how bad yl and the ptp really are, they appoint people to positions out of loyalty/nepotism and nothing to do with their abil;ity. Besides this case look at thai airlines, they replaced the man that had it running really great and turning a profit to put in a cronnie that totally f***ed it up and here someone that could organize a p*ss up in a brewery just like all the other appointments they have made.Yl and the ptp have a lot to answer for, fair enough if their appointments do a good job but when they <deleted> up the country they deserve to be ripped apart for what they have done.

Nepotism aside, why shouldn't a PM be able to put her chosen security advisor in place.

Even more fun might be to put standard tests into place for these types of positions. I wonder then if Mr. Thawil will win?

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Select text would infer that Thaksin was responsible for the Southern insurgency "

"It all went wrong from 2001 when Thaksin took power."

This is patently untrue... he stumbled as all PM's stumbled in handling this problem since 1948...

http://www.fpps.or.th/news.php?detail=n1149480173.news

It has been going on Since the Thais took the land from Malaysia back in1785

According to Pattani sources, about 4,000 Malay soldiers were enslaved as POWs and the most muscular of them were made to work on system of khlongs in Thailand�s new capital Bangkok. To further humiliate Pattani, the symbols of its military strength � the Seri Patani and Seri Negara cannon - were brought to Bangkok. (The Phaya Thani is a prized cannon that once belonged to the Sultan of Pattani This gigantic cannon has a length of 6 meters and today stands in front of the Thai Ministry of Defense in Bangkok. This cannon was confiscated by Thai troops after their conquest of Pattani in 1785 and the defeat of Rattanakosin the Sultan of Pattani. This cannon was brought by the victorious Thais to Bangkok and was presented as war booty to the Thai king Rama I.

http://www.historyofjihad.org/thailand.html

The length and breadth of this conflict is not limited to a Thaksin Era.. It is a much bigger story and one that if seriously addressed and resolved could be a huge coup both nationally and internationally as Thailand goes forward...while violence did increase over the Thaksin years they also increased again when the Sonthi junta took over.

I neither infer nor deny Thaksin or any other Thai PM is less or more is responsible for any of this as it has been going on for centuries. It is clear it should be a concern for all Thais and one that if a solution was reached would be an immense positive step going forward

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No one said that the deep south problems only belong to one era. In a way Pattani (group of provinces) went from one colonial overlord to another lesser overlord.

Posting a 'history' from 2004/5 is totally dishonest (as usual) and I went back to 2001 when the activity there increased substiantially. The current problems - the escalated level of violence - do start in 2001. Before that Prem had the situation in a much better level of control. No, it was not totally quiet but Thaksin by his dictatorial decisions bears a large amount of blame for dismantling the SBPAC which was an inclusive body of peacekeepers.

Pretending not to defend Thaksin is just more dishonesty when his interference had such a negative effect.

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No one said that the deep south problems only belong to one era. In a way Pattani (group of provinces) went from one colonial overlord to another lesser overlord.

Posting a 'history' from 2004/5 is totally dishonest (as usual) and I went back to 2001 when the activity there increased substiantially. The current problems - the escalated level of violence - do start in 2001. Before that Prem had the situation in a much better level of control. No, it was not totally quiet but Thaksin by his dictatorial decisions bears a large amount of blame for dismantling the SBPAC which was an inclusive body of peacekeepers.

Pretending not to defend Thaksin is just more dishonesty when his interference had such a negative effect.

YOU said

"It all went wrong from 2001 when Thaksin took power."

That is patently untrue it had been going on for generations.

Stop with the convenient lie bs khunken .. nothing I posted was dishonest I posted a link from wikpedia... look at the whole link once you take of your narrow vision glasses... it in fact supports the idea that there was an increase after Thaksins stumble... and one after the Sonthi junta and yet another spike after Abhisit became pm and their failed attampts as welll so your selective referencing to my posted links are as.. feeble as many of your diatribes

and I reference another link from the same source as you did...The Lowy institute... so your attampt at casting aspersions again are defunct and purely inflammatory and childish...

http://www.voltairenet.org/IMG/pdf/Thailand_southern_insurgency.pdf.

focus on the OP instead of trying to impune external sources of history...they are neither written by you or I.

And as a matter of fact I was responding to the post above mine by 'than' who said it all started under Thaksin...I made no critical comment or name calling only posted links that might make the picture clearer that it did not in fact start with Thaksin

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More lies and personal smears. The escalated level of violence DID start with Thaksin. That's the point and all you're doing is attempting to deflect from it - and failing. 'it all started...' needs the context to elaborate on what the 'all' is and unfortunately you have chosen to deliberately misinterpret it.

I had a good look at the Wikipedia version (despite your incorrect assumption) and it doesn't even attempt to describe what happened between 2001 and 2004. I do sometimes use Wiki as a source but it is open to manipulation by those like yourself.

If you mean impugn ('impune') other sources of history - another lie as I did not cast any aspersions at any other source other than yourself.

I don't like those whose agenda is the opposite of what they pretend, make dishonest efforts to back up blatantly outrageous statements and shoot the messenger. You are just continuing your misinformation & disinformation for some unknown reason which seems not above board.

Edited by khunken
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For those fools saying 'Well why shouldn't the PM be allowed to put her guy in that position - narf', that is not the problem here, the problem is that she removed Thawil, then moved someone else to his position and filled the other now vacant position WITH HER RELATIVE. This is the problem. PT have from the start done exactly as Thaksin's previous parties / puppets and tried to increase their grasp on power through appointing their family and 'trusted' people to all positions necessary to make and keep a strangle hold on the country, and allow themselves to enrich themselves at the expensen of the country without any dissenting voices to spoil it. Every Shin and every relative of Shin need to be removed from office and banned. We need new rules to stop such heinous nepotistic acts in the future. Get rid of the Shin detritus and maybe the country can move forward and become better.

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For those fools saying 'Well why shouldn't the PM be allowed to put her guy in that position - narf', that is not the problem here, the problem is that she removed Thawil, then moved someone else to his position and filled the other now vacant position WITH HER RELATIVE. This is the problem. PT have from the start done exactly as Thaksin's previous parties / puppets and tried to increase their grasp on power through appointing their family and 'trusted' people to all positions necessary to make and keep a strangle hold on the country, and allow themselves to enrich themselves at the expensen of the country without any dissenting voices to spoil it. Every Shin and every relative of Shin need to be removed from office and banned. We need new rules to stop such heinous nepotistic acts in the future. Get rid of the Shin detritus and maybe the country can move forward and become better.

Every Shin and every relative of Shin need to be removed from office and banned. We need new rules to stop such heinous nepotistic acts in the future. Get rid of the Shin detritus and maybe the country can move forward and become better.

Perhaps selective abortion is the answer. Then you could make sure only the "good" people born to the "right" parents could enter politics. I expect you'll be happy with that arrangement...............................coffee1.gif

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Selective posts would have you believe that the hightened level of violence in the South started in 2004 or 2005. This is patently untrue.

It all went wrong from 2001 when Thaksin took power.

Shortly after Thaksin Shinawatra became prime minister in early 2001, violence in Patani was once again on the rise. For political reasons, Thaksin set out to undermine key elements of the Prem era deal, disbanding the Southern Border Provinces Administrative Center (a government agency which had dispensed patronage and worked closely with Malay Muslim political religious leaders) and putting the police, rather than the army, in charge of security in the region (Thaksin had once been a police officer). Thaksin’s missteps coincided with a revival of insurgent activity, as a new generation of militants had become increasingly disillusioned with their former leaders. A bold attack on a Narathiwat army base in January 2004 saw four soldiers killed and a large cache of weapons seized, and marked a return to fully-fledged insurgency. Major incidents followed that year, most notably simultaneous attacks on 12 security checkpoints and bases in April, culminating in the bloody storming of the historic Kru-Ze mosque. This was followed in October by the Tak Bai incident, in which 78 Malay Muslim men were suffocated during their incarceration in military trucks. All of these incidents were huge propaganda victories for the insurgents.
The only other significant attempt at reconciliation between Bangkok & the deep south was Surayud's apology for the Tak Bai deaths. It obviously wasn't enough as no army (especially Panlop) or police have been brought to justice for Tak Bai & Krue Se. The worst ever effort was Chalerm's drunken visit to Malaysia, supposedly to hold negotiations with the separatists.

Thaksin took power in 2001 and, according to your account, in exactly that same year the problems began in the south. So you reckon that everything went wrong from the exact moment that Thaksin arrived, hmm?

I'd suggest two possibilities:

1) You are complete idiot.

2) You are pretending to be a complete idiot.

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For those fools saying 'Well why shouldn't the PM be allowed to put her guy in that position - narf', that is not the problem here, the problem is that she removed Thawil, then moved someone else to his position and filled the other now vacant position WITH HER RELATIVE. This is the problem. PT have from the start done exactly as Thaksin's previous parties / puppets and tried to increase their grasp on power through appointing their family and 'trusted' people to all positions necessary to make and keep a strangle hold on the country, and allow themselves to enrich themselves at the expensen of the country without any dissenting voices to spoil it. Every Shin and every relative of Shin need to be removed from office and banned. We need new rules to stop such heinous nepotistic acts in the future. Get rid of the Shin detritus and maybe the country can move forward and become better.

Every Shin and every relative of Shin need to be removed from office and banned. We need new rules to stop such heinous nepotistic acts in the future. Get rid of the Shin detritus and maybe the country can move forward and become better.

Perhaps selective abortion is the answer. Then you could make sure only the "good" people born to the "right" parents could enter politics. I expect you'll be happy with that arrangement...............................coffee1.gif

Idiotic as ever. I have come to expect nothing more from sheeple trolls such as yourself.

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For those fools saying 'Well why shouldn't the PM be allowed to put her guy in that position - narf', that is not the problem here, the problem is that she removed Thawil, then moved someone else to his position and filled the other now vacant position WITH HER RELATIVE. This is the problem. PT have from the start done exactly as Thaksin's previous parties / puppets and tried to increase their grasp on power through appointing their family and 'trusted' people to all positions necessary to make and keep a strangle hold on the country, and allow themselves to enrich themselves at the expensen of the country without any dissenting voices to spoil it. Every Shin and every relative of Shin need to be removed from office and banned. We need new rules to stop such heinous nepotistic acts in the future. Get rid of the Shin detritus and maybe the country can move forward and become better.

You can't have it both ways though.

That's not what she's charged with.

In the USA there have been father son presidents, and political dynasties. If the issue is appointing a relative then change the rules for the appointments.

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Selective posts would have you believe that the hightened level of violence in the South started in 2004 or 2005. This is patently untrue.

It all went wrong from 2001 when Thaksin took power.

Shortly after Thaksin Shinawatra became prime minister in early 2001, violence in Patani was once again on the rise. For political reasons, Thaksin set out to undermine key elements of the Prem era deal, disbanding the Southern Border Provinces Administrative Center (a government agency which had dispensed patronage and worked closely with Malay Muslim political religious leaders) and putting the police, rather than the army, in charge of security in the region (Thaksin had once been a police officer). Thaksin’s missteps coincided with a revival of insurgent activity, as a new generation of militants had become increasingly disillusioned with their former leaders. A bold attack on a Narathiwat army base in January 2004 saw four soldiers killed and a large cache of weapons seized, and marked a return to fully-fledged insurgency. Major incidents followed that year, most notably simultaneous attacks on 12 security checkpoints and bases in April, culminating in the bloody storming of the historic Kru-Ze mosque. This was followed in October by the Tak Bai incident, in which 78 Malay Muslim men were suffocated during their incarceration in military trucks. All of these incidents were huge propaganda victories for the insurgents.
The only other significant attempt at reconciliation between Bangkok & the deep south was Surayud's apology for the Tak Bai deaths. It obviously wasn't enough as no army (especially Panlop) or police have been brought to justice for Tak Bai & Krue Se. The worst ever effort was Chalerm's drunken visit to Malaysia, supposedly to hold negotiations with the separatists.

Thaksin took power in 2001 and, according to your account, in exactly that same year the problems began in the south. So you reckon that everything went wrong from the exact moment that Thaksin arrived, hmm?

I'd suggest two possibilities:

1) You are complete idiot.

2) You are pretending to be a complete idiot.

I'll ignore the flames this time as you appear to be totally ignorant of events in the deep south given your contribution to the debate so far is zero.

I posted a piece from a website, written by Duncan McCargo who does know a thing or two about Thailand's history. Yes, as he says things went wrong due to Thaksin's dictatorial interference in a well-regarded peace-keeping body.

Now, unless you have some information to contradict what I posted, I suggest you keep your ignorance and flames to yourself.

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More lies and personal smears. The escalated level of violence DID start with Thaksin. That's the point and all you're doing is attempting to deflect from it - and failing. 'it all started...' needs the context to elaborate on what the 'all' is and unfortunately you have chosen to deliberately misinterpret it.

I had a good look at the Wikipedia version (despite your incorrect assumption) and it doesn't even attempt to describe what happened between 2001 and 2004. I do sometimes use Wiki as a source but it is open to manipulation by those like yourself.

If you mean impugn ('impune') other sources of history - another lie as I did not cast any aspersions at any other source other than yourself.

I don't like those whose agenda is the opposite of what they pretend, make dishonest efforts to back up blatantly outrageous statements and shoot the messenger. You are just continuing your misinformation & disinformation for some unknown reason which seems not above board.

DId you even read the post above mine the one i was responding to? Doubt it.. the ignorance of your arrogance speaks for itself.

look in the mirror khunken...you are the one distorting facts you are the one disassociating quotes you are the one refusing to read more information except what serves your malice... look at the third link (listed here) I provided you the one from the same Institute you quoted..above did you bother to read it? 95 pages so I rather doubt it (typical) if you had spent half the time you ramble on here reading for more background on all of these topics your underlying self loathing would not be so evident..you are more self absorbed in pretending some sort of superiority than actually trying to expand your knowledge base...Good luck to you ....

These are the 4 links I posted in this thread... I beleive it covers pretty much all of the issues in the south...but you are entitled to yourr rants and your continuous attempts at trying to make me out to be a liar ... FAIL khunken fail

http://www.fpps.or.t...1149480173.news

http://www.historyof...g/thailand.html

http://www.voltairen..._insurgency.pdf.

http://en.wikipedia....land_insurgency

Edited by DirtFarmer
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More lies and personal smears. The escalated level of violence DID start with Thaksin. That's the point and all you're doing is attempting to deflect from it - and failing. 'it all started...' needs the context to elaborate on what the 'all' is and unfortunately you have chosen to deliberately misinterpret it.

I had a good look at the Wikipedia version (despite your incorrect assumption) and it doesn't even attempt to describe what happened between 2001 and 2004. I do sometimes use Wiki as a source but it is open to manipulation by those like yourself.

If you mean impugn ('impune') other sources of history - another lie as I did not cast any aspersions at any other source other than yourself.

I don't like those whose agenda is the opposite of what they pretend, make dishonest efforts to back up blatantly outrageous statements and shoot the messenger. You are just continuing your misinformation & disinformation for some unknown reason which seems not above board.

DId you even read the post above mine the one i was responding to? Doubt it.. the ignorance of your arrogance speaks for itself.

look in the mirror khunken...you are the one distorting facts you are the one disassociating quotes you are the one refusing to read more information except what serves your malice... look at the third link (listed here) I provided you the one from the same Institute you quoted..above did you bother to read it? 95 pages so I rather doubt it (typical) if you had spent half the time you ramble on here reading for more background on all of these topics your underlying self loathing would not be so evident..you are more self absorbed in pretending some sort of superiority than actually trying to expand your knowledge base...Good luck to you ....

These are the 4 links I posted in this thread... I beleive it covers pretty much all of the issues in the south...but you are entitled to yourr rants and your continuous attempts at trying to make me out to be a liar ... FAIL khunken fail

http://www.fpps.or.t...1149480173.news

http://www.historyof...g/thailand.html

http://www.voltairen..._insurgency.pdf.

http://en.wikipedia....land_insurgency

Khunken Don't worry about his rants. He thinks 1 principle of democracy is more important than 15 principles of democracy because the 1 principle can be manipulated.

I completely agree with you when you say "I don't like those whose agenda is the opposite of what they pretend, make dishonest efforts to back up blatantly outrageous statements and shoot the messenger. You are just continuing your misinformation & disinformation for some unknown reason which seems not above board."

<EDIT> - 100% completely agree...

Edited by djjamie
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