Village headmen from Chiang Mai to challenge anti government protesters at Interior Ministry

[northernjohn]

and usual inane post by someone who is totally uninformed. Apparently you were not out on Chiang Mai - Lampang Highway like I was today, and obviously didn't see the 20+ bus convoy heading out. Engage brain before operating mouth. Try it sometime. You might be amazed at how well it works.

You're kidding aren't you? 20+ bus convoy - of village heads? Ha... they're all cropping right now hoping for payment, knowing they'll get it from the lying PTP this week, again. 20 Buses, maybe: of armed thugs pretending to be old men. That's about the size of it.... assuming you counted 20 red buses.... or were you having a dream about London?

He is not kidding he actually believes it. Don't all red shirts.

Let's see now 20 buses lets make that 30 to be on the safe side. 40 passengers per bus we will pack them in.

30 X 40 = 1,200 people coming from the red shirt stronghold.

80,000 divided by 40 = 2,000 buses. Should be a show to watch them all parking there so they can all gather round the building. So tomorrow Sunday May 4 is the big show.

Do these people have some sort of a contest to see who can come up with the most ridicules statement.

Is there a red shirt hall of fame for these clowns?

You try to cause a big ado about nothing as something obviously got lost in the translation - you people.

I also heard you guys keep expending the stock of TVF emoticons of ROFLMAO thus requiring TVF to keep running out to the supply vendor to replace your interminable use of them. Keep up the good work for the local economy and for the business to TVF.

I'll close with one that's always strongly in stock here .

Edited for typo.

You defend any ridicules statement the PTP red shirts come up with until you are given irrefutable facts and then it is not that they were being ignorant it is a misunderstanding in translation.

Care to give us the translation you think it is.

I thought not.

[northernjohn]

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Leader of the headmen from Chiang Mai, Mr Kamoldit Rotananipat, alias Kamnan Daeng,

Must be a ThaiRouge member, he has an alias.

Your comment is, sadly, typical of many a response on this forum to a serious news item. Reduce it to trivilaities and try to make clever comments. Once in while, It would be helpful, to recognize that PRDC's rent-a-mob in Bangkok are causing real difficulties for those whose function it is to carry out the administrative fiat at ampoe, tambon and moo baan level throughout the country.

2 weeks ago, I was at the Chiangmai immigration to get thai passports for my family and this is the 3rd time that we went there. There were about 300+ people in the queue since 4am and we had no chance of getting it done. The inconvenience of the people who drove all the way from Lampang & Lampun is understandable, so those who are still blocking government offices in BKK should allow the civil service administration to work.

Try posting that on the Chiang Mai Forum. Even the biggest Thai bashers will laugh at you.

[northernjohn]

Well, there must be something to it, as All Powerful Suthep has ordered all PDRC to abandon the Interior Ministry offices they have been occupying for the past few months, and return to Lampini Park, fearing "confrontation" with the village kamnan's. But how can that be, since Suthep represents "all the people". Oh wait, I forgot, these are from north of BKK city limits, so that means they are people, only buffaloes.

I will take your word for it but I think some wont.

[djjamie]

Haven't read the article, but cannot think of a single civilised country that has "village headmen". I can think of quite a few sub-saharan countries that do though. Thailand also compares better with those countries on an evolutionary scale.

If you lived here and showed even the slightest interest in the culture you would realise just how ignorant you come across as.

Seems you are addicted to condescension. Come on mate. Your better than that. Reply the post instead of following the PTP trait. No word on the content of what he said?

How do you expect him to reply to a load of BS coming from his beloved Thaksin led PTP red shirt followers.

I only reply because he intrigues me. He has shown me his hatred, condescension and feelings towards people that have different view points, but in every one of his posts he has still never reflected what his view points are and if he has allured too them he has never backed them up with facts…Only beliefs.

I have a full understanding of the hatred he has within him from what he says, but I want to know the love and respect and democratic feelings ( not just elections) he holds. Surely he is human.

I used to pity him, but due to his hatred I am starting to fear him. I have a family and the last thing they need are people that condone violence, intimidation for 1/15 principles of democracy. Even if they fought for 15/15 principles of democracy then violence should not be condoned and the messengers belittled or condescended against.

[northernjohn]

Must be a ThaiRouge member, he has an alias.

Your comment is, sadly, typical of many a response on this forum to a serious news item. Reduce it to trivilaities and try to make clever comments. Once in while, It would be helpful, to recognize that PRDC's rent-a-mob in Bangkok are causing real difficulties for those whose function it is to carry out the administrative fiat at ampoe, tambon and moo baan level throughout the country.

2 weeks ago, I was at the Chiangmai immigration to get thai passports for my family and this is the 3rd time that we went there. There were about 300+ people in the queue since 4am and we had no chance of getting it done. The inconvenience of the people who drove all the way from Lampang & Lampun is understandable, so those who are still blocking government offices in BKK should allow the civil service administration to work.

Are in Chiang Mai passports issued at the immigration ?

No they are issued in Mai Rim.

On a busy day when they were issuing work permits for the foreign workers they might have had up to 200 at one time there. I am stretching that. Also that was while they were open and processing people. Yes there was line ups early in the morning but if you were in for visa related issues you did not have to wait for all the foreign workers to register or what ever it was they were doing. It was still a mess but 300 no way particularly at that time in the morning.

[Publicus]

He is not kidding he actually believes it. Don't all red shirts.

Let's see now 20 buses lets make that 30 to be on the safe side. 40 passengers per bus we will pack them in.

30 X 40 = 1,200 people coming from the red shirt stronghold.

80,000 divided by 40 = 2,000 buses. Should be a show to watch them all parking there so they can all gather round the building. So tomorrow Sunday May 4 is the big show.

Do these people have some sort of a contest to see who can come up with the most ridicules statement.

Is there a red shirt hall of fame for these clowns?

You try to cause a big ado about nothing as something obviously got lost in the translation - you people.

I also heard you guys keep expending the stock of TVF emoticons of ROFLMAO thus requiring TVF to keep running out to the supply vendor to replace your interminable use of them. Keep up the good work for the local economy and for the business to TVF.

I'll close with one that's always strongly in stock here .

Edited for typo.

You defend any ridicules statement the PTP red shirts come up with until you are given irrefutable facts and then it is not that they were being ignorant it is a misunderstanding in translation.

Care to give us the translation you think it is.

I thought not.

The precise translation is that the posts going on about the wild 80K figure are fact-free and hype-full, which is the SOP of you and your side.

If Suthep has ordered his thugs out of the Interior Ministry, as has been reported by a poster here, it is both a necessary decision and a tactical one. Interesting Suthep and the cave men of the PDRC have more respect of the phu yai baan of the colonies who are closing in on the imperial capital than of the central government. The government's newly deployed secret weapon?

All the same, Suthep continues his pattern of retreat and those here trying to deflect the fact by grabbing someone's screwy number doesn't cut it either.

[JesseFrank]

Well, there must be something to it, as All Powerful Suthep has ordered all PDRC to abandon the Interior Ministry offices they have been occupying for the past few months, and return to Lampini Park, fearing "confrontation" with the village kamnan's. But how can that be, since Suthep represents "all the people". Oh wait, I forgot, these are from north of BKK city limits, so that means they are people, only buffaloes.

He must be making room for them. You know 80.000 Kamnan in a bus isn't something to joke with .

[geriatrickid]

Given the VERY strong relationship that exists between the Interior ministry and the "village headmen" I would not be surprised to see a good turnout.

If the occupation has impacted on the operation of the department then I could understand why the "headmen" are p-ssed off.

If you have never thought about the relationship then this would be a good time to do so

You could also think about why the PTP is opposed to breaking this arrangement down by handing over certain function to the provinces.

Fair enough. However, I shudder to consider the impact it would have on containing corruption. In the zone of corruption (Phuket-Surat Thani-Krabi-Nahkon Si Thammarat) the format acts as a block to even greater corruption. There is too close a relationship between various entities in Surat Thani and Phuket. The large influence of tourism and the monies it generates fuels rampant corruption. I wish I had a constructive solution to the problem, but the situation is so bad, I believe the only thing that would help would be a receivership type of governing with all government, police and judiciary officials sacked.

[northernjohn]

He is not kidding he actually believes it. Don't all red shirts.

Let's see now 20 buses lets make that 30 to be on the safe side. 40 passengers per bus we will pack them in.

30 X 40 = 1,200 people coming from the red shirt stronghold.

80,000 divided by 40 = 2,000 buses. Should be a show to watch them all parking there so they can all gather round the building. So tomorrow Sunday May 4 is the big show.

Do these people have some sort of a contest to see who can come up with the most ridicules statement.

Is there a red shirt hall of fame for these clowns?

You try to cause a big ado about nothing as something obviously got lost in the translation - you people.

I also heard you guys keep expending the stock of TVF emoticons of ROFLMAO thus requiring TVF to keep running out to the supply vendor to replace your interminable use of them. Keep up the good work for the local economy and for the business to TVF.

I'll close with one that's always strongly in stock here .

Edited for typo.

You defend any ridicules statement the PTP red shirts come up with until you are given irrefutable facts and then it is not that they were being ignorant it is a misunderstanding in translation.

Care to give us the translation you think it is.

I thought not.

The precise translation is that the posts going on about the wild 80K figure are fact-free and hype-full, which is the SOP of you and your side.

If Suthep has ordered his thugs out of the Interior Ministry, as has been reported by a poster here, it is both a necessary decision and a tactical one. Interesting Suthep and the cave men of the PDRC have more respect of the phu yai baan of the colonies who are closing in on the imperial capital than of the central government. The government's newly deployed secret weapon?

All the same, Suthep continues his pattern of retreat and those here trying to deflect the fact by grabbing someone's screwy number doesn't cut it either.

Just can't admit you are clueless have to change the subject.

I repeat

give us the translation you think it is. Not what you think others have made up. It is a simple question. If you need I will break it down into four letter words.

[h90]

Well, there must be something to it, as All Powerful Suthep has ordered all PDRC to abandon the Interior Ministry offices they have been occupying for the past few months, and return to Lampini Park, fearing "confrontation" with the village kamnan's. But how can that be, since Suthep represents "all the people". Oh wait, I forgot, these are from north of BKK city limits, so that means they are people, only buffaloes.

He must be making room for them. You know 80.000 Kamnan in a bus isn't something to joke with .

you don't know who are in the bus....the "self defense" red shirts, hired karen mercenaries? Hired street gangs on Ya Baa? I doubt the real Kamnans will come for fight....

[h90]

Given the VERY strong relationship that exists between the Interior ministry and the "village headmen" I would not be surprised to see a good turnout.

If the occupation has impacted on the operation of the department then I could understand why the "headmen" are p-ssed off.

If you have never thought about the relationship then this would be a good time to do so

You could also think about why the PTP is opposed to breaking this arrangement down by handing over certain function to the provinces.

Fair enough. However, I shudder to consider the impact it would have on containing corruption. In the zone of corruption (Phuket-Surat Thani-Krabi-Nahkon Si Thammarat) the format acts as a block to even greater corruption. There is too close a relationship between various entities in Surat Thani and Phuket. The large influence of tourism and the monies it generates fuels rampant corruption. I wish I had a constructive solution to the problem, but the situation is so bad, I believe the only thing that would help would be a receivership type of governing with all government, police and judiciary officials sacked.

Now the South is the zone of corruption?

[arthurwait]

"He said about 80,000 headmen would travel to Bangkok"

Sounds like a big number. Headmen only or does that incl. their spouses and other family members like papa and mama?

On the usual red counting they will fit in 3 buses.

and usual inane post by someone who is totally uninformed. Apparently you were not out on Chiang Mai - Lampang Highway like I was today, and obviously didn't see the 20+ bus convoy heading out. Engage brain before operating mouth. Try it sometime. You might be amazed at how well it works.

Wow I've never seen a 4000 seat bus.

[djjamie]

"He said about 80,000 headmen would travel to Bangkok"

Sounds like a big number. Headmen only or does that incl. their spouses and other family members like papa and mama?

On the usual red counting they will fit in 3 buses.

and usual inane post by someone who is totally uninformed. Apparently you were not out on Chiang Mai - Lampang Highway like I was today, and obviously didn't see the 20+ bus convoy heading out. Engage brain before operating mouth. Try it sometime. You might be amazed at how well it works.

Wow I've never seen a 4000 seat bus.

You should see the tractor the 100 000 protestors came in on when they had the 1/15 principle of democracy rally in Bangkok.

[Publicus]

Well, there must be something to it, as All Powerful Suthep has ordered all PDRC to abandon the Interior Ministry offices they have been occupying for the past few months, and return to Lampini Park, fearing "confrontation" with the village kamnan's. But how can that be, since Suthep represents "all the people". Oh wait, I forgot, these are from north of BKK city limits, so that means they are people, only buffaloes.

He must be making room for them. You know 80.000 Kamnan in a bus isn't something to joke with .

you don't know who are in the bus....the "self defense" red shirts, hired karen mercenaries? Hired street gangs on Ya Baa? I doubt the real Kamnans will come for fight....

We still don't know who are the cave men of the PDRC, but it's safe to say it's known who out in the colonies got on the motor coaches and who will get off them once they arrive at the imperial capital - local and very local leaders, that's who.

You have evidence to the contrary or just the wild speculation of a PDRC imagination working overtime and which is staring into a blank rectangular box. The question pretty much answers itself.

You guys need to know you can't detract from or deflect that these local leaders who are coming to the imperial capital are effective and are a significant force, and that this fact scares you guys very much. They are the local grassroots leaders and that frightens you.

[rubl]

The "peasants" traveling from the colonies to enter the imperial capital scares the bejezus out of the PDRC types that need daily to run about posting from thread to thread.

Government buildings are being unlawfully occupied over a significant period of time which affects the population throughout the country so some local and very local leaders are coming to try to do something about it.

Local leaders in the South seem to think it's not urgent and I'd bet Suthep too doesn't think it's urgent, that is if Suthep thinks at all these daze. Abhisit is always too wrapped up in himself to know local concerns.

Those of us that oppose the double header of corruption and unlawful occupation of government buildings seem to be in a posters minority here. At least however we are consistent.

Those of us who can read and understand are getting a bit fed up with those who seemingly cannot.

To interpret the questioning of a somewhat random number as 'scared' must be a type of logic I fail to understand though. I've learned to ask questions when I do not understand. Must be something those consistent people fail to grasp.

Furthermore it would seem that anti-government protests are once more to be strictly regulated like we see in the Western World Democracies. Totally ignoring the implication of double standards in trying to apply non-Thai aspects of democracy to anti-government protesters without applying same to pro-government protesters.

BTW local leaders in ChiangMai tend to be pro-Pheu THai and Shinawatra, not necessarily pro-government.

[rubl]

You guys need to know you can't detract from or deflect that these local leaders who are coming to the imperial capital are effective and are a significant force, and that this fact scares you guys very much. They are the local grassroots leaders and that frightens you.

If these people would be what goes for 'representing' the local grassroot leaders I would indeed be frightened. For Thailand that is as the local leaders tend to be just a continuation of those who were in control before, either for their family or as overseer for the local lord.

[rubl]

Leader of the headmen from Chiang Mai, Mr Kamoldit Rotananipat, alias Kamnan Daeng,

Must be a ThaiRouge member, he has an alias.

Your comment is, sadly, typical of many a response on this forum to a serious news item. Reduce it to trivilaities and try to make clever comments. Once in while, It would be helpful, to recognize that PRDC's rent-a-mob in Bangkok are causing real difficulties for those whose function it is to carry out the administrative fiat at ampoe, tambon and moo baan level throughout the country.

It is useless to try to reason with a TV core member.

You will have more success when you try talk to a wall

They are all brainwashed Yellow people.

Now, now, don't be hasty, my dear confused.

There are TV core members who are brainwashed Red people as well.

DISCLAIMER: the remarks do not refer to 'race'

[noitom]

Thai village headmen coming to face off with PDRC. They are the vanguard of more to come from outside Bangkok.

[Publicus]

You're kidding aren't you? 20+ bus convoy - of village heads? Ha... they're all cropping right now hoping for payment, knowing they'll get it from the lying PTP this week, again. 20 Buses, maybe: of armed thugs pretending to be old men. That's about the size of it.... assuming you counted 20 red buses.... or were you having a dream about London?

He is not kidding he actually believes it. Don't all red shirts.

Let's see now 20 buses lets make that 30 to be on the safe side. 40 passengers per bus we will pack them in.

30 X 40 = 1,200 people coming from the red shirt stronghold.

80,000 divided by 40 = 2,000 buses. Should be a show to watch them all parking there so they can all gather round the building. So tomorrow Sunday May 4 is the big show.

Do these people have some sort of a contest to see who can come up with the most ridicules statement.

Is there a red shirt hall of fame for these clowns?

You try to cause a big ado about nothing as something obviously got lost in the translation - you people.

I also heard you guys keep expending the stock of TVF emoticons of ROFLMAO thus requiring TVF to keep running out to the supply vendor to replace your interminable use of them. Keep up the good work for the local economy and for the business to TVF.

I'll close with one that's always strongly in stock here .

Edited for typo.

You defend any ridicules statement the PTP red shirts come up with until you are given irrefutable facts and then it is not that they were being ignorant it is a misunderstanding in translation.

Care to give us the translation you think it is.

I thought not.

If your posts to this thread are designed to expose ignorance as you claim, then you're doing a stellar job of it, just not in the way you think you are. So, actually, I would encourage you to continue to carry forward the self-expose' . It's very helpful to those of us who are fighting it.

[Publicus]

You guys need to know you can't detract from or deflect that these local leaders who are coming to the imperial capital are effective and are a significant force, and that this fact scares you guys very much. They are the local grassroots leaders and that frightens you.

If these people would be what goes for 'representing' the local grassroot leaders I would indeed be frightened. For Thailand that is as the local leaders tend to be just a continuation of those who were in control before, either for their family or as overseer for the local lord.

Show me where or when I said anything about "these people" being as you say, "representative" of anyone or anything. You introduced the word "representative" and you put the word in quote marks in your post.

They comprise a number of local or very local leaders. Whether the group en route to the imperial capital are representative of the class as a whole, I never tried to say or suggest. That's your concoction.

Come on now rubl, fess up on this one!

[mikemac]

Leader of the headmen from Chiang Mai, Mr Kamoldit Rotananipat, alias Kamnan Daeng,

Must be a ThaiRouge member, he has an alias.

Your comment is, sadly, typical of many a response on this forum to a serious news item. Reduce it to trivilaities and try to make clever comments. Once in while, It would be helpful, to recognize that PRDC's rent-a-mob in Bangkok are causing real difficulties for those whose function it is to carry out the administrative fiat at ampoe, tambon and moo baan level throughout the country.

I was actually being serious. There seems to be a trend among the ThaiRouge to have an alias. I won't bother listing examples here but take notice when you read storied about these paid thugs.

And I know exactly what you mean about a rent-a-mob causing "real difficulties". Probably the best example that comes to mind was the Thaksin sponsored coup of 2010 in Bangkok. Or had you forgotten that one ?

[mikemac]

You guys need to know you can't detract from or deflect that these local leaders who are coming to the imperial capital are effective and are a significant force, and that this fact scares you guys very much. They are the local grassroots leaders and that frightens you.

If these people would be what goes for 'representing' the local grassroot leaders I would indeed be frightened. For Thailand that is as the local leaders tend to be just a continuation of those who were in control before, either for their family or as overseer for the local lord.

Show me where or when I said anything about "these people" being as you say, "representative" of anyone or anything. You introduced the word "representative" and you put the word in quote marks in your post.

They comprise a number of local or very local leaders. Whether the group en route to the imperial capital are representative of the class as a whole, I never tried to say or suggest. That's your concoction.

Come on now rubl, fess up on this one!

Read his post again, he started it with the word "if". Which is a very small word with a very big meaning.

And let's hope these local leaders are more effective than the rice farmers who went to the imperial capital were, looking for their elusive rice payments.

Perhaps this is why these guys are going on this paid trip, to make up for lost revenue. Very sad that it has come to this.

[Mango Bob]

So the protesters are leaving the Interior Ministry. Smart move. They know the people are feed up with there blocking the public from doing business with the government. There numbers are getting smaller and they will need all they can get for the big one. Now the guards outnumber the protesters. Now I wonder how many of you farangs supports of Suthep will come out in force on D-Day or will you sit behind your computer cheering him on.

[Publicus]

You guys need to know you can't detract from or deflect that these local leaders who are coming to the imperial capital are effective and are a significant force, and that this fact scares you guys very much. They are the local grassroots leaders and that frightens you.

If these people would be what goes for 'representing' the local grassroot leaders I would indeed be frightened. For Thailand that is as the local leaders tend to be just a continuation of those who were in control before, either for their family or as overseer for the local lord.

Show me where or when I said anything about "these people" being as you say, "representative" of anyone or anything. You introduced the word "representative" and you put the word in quote marks in your post.

They comprise a number of local or very local leaders. Whether the group en route to the imperial capital are representative of the class as a whole, I never tried to say or suggest. That's your concoction.

Come on now rubl, fess up on this one!

Read his post again, he started it with the word "if". Which is a very small word with a very big meaning.

And let's hope these local leaders are more effective than the rice farmers who went to the imperial capital were, looking for their elusive rice payments.

Perhaps this is why these guys are going on this paid trip, to make up for lost revenue. Very sad that it has come to this.

Perhaps not and if only what you allege were true.

The farmers who came to the imperial capital from the lower North / upper central came for a few days to make their point then returned home.

The farmers were not going to allow Suthep or the ammart to exploit them in the campaign to overthrow the government. These farmers disappointed the whole lot of you when they went home quickly and to stay home. However, the purpose and intent of the farmers was to protest and demonstrate normally, not to please feudalist forces or to enable a fascist seizure of power in the imperial capital.

You guys got busted on that one.

Now come the village headmen to bust you further and again.

[gangrel]

Don't know how many people seat in a bus but it used to be 46. 46x23 = 1,058, not 11,000, or 80.000. there won't be too many old men wanting to stand from CM to BKK. They are meant to be arriving tomorrow And the big red rally is setting up tomorrow forr Monday so that 1,000 should be 1,000 coming for that anyway.

11,000 old men. That's a lot of toilet stops

Great line.

[MaiChai]

Anyone seen the villagers all watching red shirt tv on their free satellite boxes? Its the worse case of brainwashing i have ever seen. Which comes back to the old argument: how can the minority, educated, thinking for themselves, middle class ever win an election against the brainwashed red shirt masses in the villages? You should only be allowed to vote if you can think for yourself and make an impartial judgement on who is best to vote for?

[mikemac]

Perhaps not and if only what you allege were true.

The farmers who came to the imperial capital from the lower North / upper central came for a few days to make their point then returned home.

The farmers were not going to allow Suthep or the ammart to exploit them in the campaign to overthrow the government. These farmers disappointed the whole lot of you when they went home quickly and to stay home. However, the purpose and intent of the farmers was to protest and demonstrate normally, not to please feudalist forces or to enable a fascist seizure of power in the imperial capital.

You guys got busted on that one.

Now come the village headmen to bust you further and again.

I believe there were a number of reasons the farmers went home when they did, and went quiet. The main reason they went back to the farms was because nobody was bankrolling the trip and the costs were killing them. May have been told that if they caused any drama with the PTP they would never see any money. Nothing to do with Suthep and this "ammart" you guys keep on babbling about.

Talking about disappointment, I bet the farmers were disappointed when they were screwed by the very people they put into power. My wife's family were among the many ripped off, and I have been helping them out with money ever since.

By the way, when are you going to let us know who this mysterious ammart is ? Got any names, or is that putting you on the spot ?

[issanaus]

Extract from the thread Support for reform ....

Komkrit Singtothong, president of the Chon Buri Association of Kamnan and Village Heads, said about 1,200 kamnan, village heads, assistant village heads and local doctors from his province would travel to Bangkok.

He said he would also lead local leaders to protest against a proposal to elect all provincial governors, which may result in positions of kamnan and village heads being scrapped.

The proposal was unacceptable because the kamnan and village heads had become an institution that addressed public issues after its establishment 122 years ago.

King Rama 5 appointed kamnans and village heads to address public grievances and they are empowered as authorities by criminal code procedures, Komkrit said.

[marcusd]

If these IGNORANT UNEDUCATED people who profess to be the doyens of a village, think they will force change let THAILAND reap what it sows and let the country again vote for the PTP. Let the people get what they think they are voting for. Let the country run a mock an go down the gurgler. Let their THAINESS attitudes of "we are always right" and "don't tell us what to do", sort their issues and when tourists don't come because they have found better destinations and when we as the foreigners bringing in most of their exchange reserves leave, let them all go back to climbing coconut palms.

Lets face it, it is ok but there are MANY options just across all the borders now.

Edited May 4, 2014 by marcusd

[Longtooth]

How in the world do they fit 80,000 people in 23 buses?

Sent from my GT-S5310 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

78 inside, and 3400 on the roof, silly.