Unprofessional and unskilled English Teacher's do you feel guilty?

[wilcopops]

Everyone’s an expert!

This has got to be some kind of record for the amount of utter nonsense posted in one thread.

“Unskilled”

“Unprofessional”

And “good”

What on earth are people talking about? They have absolutely no idea of what constitutes a “skilled” “professional” or “good” teacher yet are prepared to scribble down reams on the subject.

I find it astounding that people will accept the word of some “professionals” without question and just assume they must be right. Doctors, plumbers, electricians, mechanics, lawyers and accountants, but when it comes to education - a subject of massive complexity, everyone’s an expert.

Firstly there are a lot of flaky practitioners in education whose enterprises are little more than scams but the criteria discussed on this thread (v. above) are simply not viable. Most of the people here wouldn’t be able to identify one if the guy stood in front of them wearing a t-shirt saying “Beware flaky teacher”

Please don’t try and make a definition because judging by the rubbish posted so far all that will happen is a series of nape-of-the-neck assumptions about what a teacher should be.

[Zooheekock]

Whilst his Spoken English may be good, its not clear, I am British....the sounds are not the same and his native !! language is not English....so the video is a mute point..sorry...

By all means open it up for judgement !!

You have errors of spelling, punctuation and capitalization. You have used a comma splice. You have introduced totally egregious exclamation marks and you've managed to work in an irrelevance. I'm also not convinced that you understand what 'moot' (not 'mute') means. And you're just flat out wrong to say he's 'not clear'.

I spend hours ever week re -training all the words that my Daughter hears incorrectly so she understands what real English sounds like.

As long as you don't touch any written work which she has done, you probably won't screw things up too badly for her.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Zooheekock

[bigbamboo]

To teach a language, does 1 need to be a native speaker ?

I seem to remember that most of the foreign language teachers at my old school in England were English, even the Russian ones.

But of course they all went to Cambridge.

[Nickthegreek]

In an ideal world, Thailand would spend its money wisely on education and hire native English speakers from Country's which first language is English, sadly due to funding they hire Filipinos who seem capable,but its now clear that they are really a degree educated, lower paid option than the Tefler who resides here, or comes here to work in a gap year.

I am of course biased being British and of course I think it should be British teachers, as after all its where the language originates from.!

I am sure other will disagree for a number of reasons, but I am entitled to my opinion.

[Suradit69]

Everyone’s an expert!

This has got to be some kind of record for the amount of utter nonsense posted in one thread.

“Unskilled”

“Unprofessional”

And “good”

What on earth are people talking about? They have absolutely no idea of what constitutes a “skilled” “professional” or “good” teacher yet are prepared to scribble down reams on the subject.

I find it astounding that people will accept the word of some “professionals” without question and just assume they must be right; doctors, plumbers, electricians, mechanics, lawyers and accountants, no problem, but when it comes to education - a subject of massive complexity, everyone’s an expert.

Yes, there are a lot of flaky practitioners in education whose enterprises are little more than scams, but the criteria discussed on this thread (v. above) are simply not viable. Most of the people here wouldn’t be able to identify one if the guy stood in front of them wearing a t-shirt saying “Beware flaky teacher”

Please don’t try and make a definition because judging by the rubbish posted so far, all that will happen is a series of nape-of-the-neck assumptions about what a teacher should be.

So you're saying we should blindly accept the "expert" opinion of doctors, plumbers, electricians, mechanics, lawyers and accountants and also assume some moron could be a qualified English teacher unless and until an expert tells us otherwise? From what we've all seen in the "education" forum, quite a few potential teachers are doing the equivalent of wearing a t-shirt saying “Beware flaky teacher." I don't need to be a mechanic to know I have a flat tire/tyre before me.

And then there is the problem of regional idioms, heavy accents and quaint colloquialisms introduced before someone has a clear grasp of the fundamentals or an "ear" for the language.

I recall a school in the Middle East that hired a number of Irish teachers of English. They were probably qualified and experienced, but even native English speakers couldn't fathom half of what some of them were saying.

Please don’t try and make a definition ... ??

or

Please don't try to make (formulate?) a definition ...??

Setting standards is a tricky business.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Suradit69

[Nickthegreek]

Whilst his Spoken English may be good, its not clear, I am British....the sounds are not the same and his native !! language is not English....so the video is a mute point..sorry...

By all means open it up for judgement !!

You have errors of spelling, punctuation and capitalization. You have used a comma splice. You have introduced totally egregious exclamation marks and you've managed to work in an irrelevance. I'm also not convinced that you understand what 'moot' (not 'mute') means. And you're just flat out wrong to say he's 'not clear'.

I spend hours ever week re -training all the words that my Daughter hears incorrectly so she understands what real English sounds like.

As long as you don't touch any written work which she has done, you probably won't screw things up too badly for her.

Wow you are amazing, thanks for that. I see that you ability to read is good too.

You must also have some ancestors in the UK

[garyinhuahin]

At the level of a weekend or weeklong English camp, it hardly matters. I suspect the children don't learn much anyway and will forget what they do learn very quickly after. Sorry your GF has to fund this.

That said, my experience is that native speakers are not always the best teachers. It depends on the individual and the needs of the student. I have a friend, a native Russian-speaker, who teaches English online quite successfully. His students are adults, and they need points of grammar and idiom explained to them in their own language. I substituted for him a couple of times and I can say that I couldn't do what he does.

I also have a Thai friend teaching for a long time in public school. They have had a succession of English teachers from countries such as Kenya, Jamaica, and Ireland. The teachers don't stay long in general, and the kids are now thoroughly confused. Consistent training, even from a less-skilled speaker, would be better for them. I myself have had a few native teachers of Thai language who were not good teachers at all.

The best teacher would be fluent and literate in both the target language and the student's native language, have a sound understanding of the principles of

learning, and have substantial dedication and pride in a job well done. In that case, it doesn't really matter if that person is a native speaker of the target language or not. I have met both Thai persons, educated here or overseas, and Farang who meet those criteria. Unfortunately for English instruction here, these individuals generally are interested in higher-paying (and higher status) work.

[thailiketoo]

In an ideal world, Thailand would spend its money wisely on education and hire native English speakers from Country's which first language is English, sadly due to funding they hire Filipinos who seem capable,but its now clear that they are really a degree educated, lower paid option than the Tefler who resides here, or comes here to work in a gap year.

I am of course biased being British and of course I think it should be British teachers, as after all its where the language originates from.!

I am sure other will disagree for a number of reasons, but I am entitled to my opinion.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Is a layman permitted to treat sick patients?

So lets check your qualifications?

Degree? Advanced degrees? Languages spoken? Years teaching a language?

Years in the Education business? Number of Filipinos you have worked/taught with?

Other nationalities you have taught with? Advanced or basic language teaching skills courses you have taken?

Do you really have a qualified opinion?

Edited May 30, 2014 by thailiketoo

[Nickthegreek]

In an ideal world, Thailand would spend its money wisely on education and hire native English speakers from Country's which first language is English, sadly due to funding they hire Filipinos who seem capable,but its now clear that they are really a degree educated, lower paid option than the Tefler who resides here, or comes here to work in a gap year.

I am of course biased being British and of course I think it should be British teachers, as after all its where the language originates from.!

I am sure other will disagree for a number of reasons, but I am entitled to my opinion.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Is a layman permitted to treat sick patients?

So lets check your qualifications?

Degree? Advanced degrees? Languages spoken? Years teaching a language?

Years in the Education business? Number of Filipinos you have worked/taught with?

Other nationalities you have taught with? Advanced or basic language teaching skills courses you have taken?

Do you really have a qualified opinion?

Whats it got to do with My degree status ? Stick to the points, I notice that have yet to reply to being British or American! Does one protest too much ??

I can only base my experience on what I see daily and I see little improvement in the ability of Thai children taught by anyone to be fair to speak English on a daily basis.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Nickthegreek

[thailiketoo]

In an ideal world, Thailand would spend its money wisely on education and hire native English speakers from Country's which first language is English, sadly due to funding they hire Filipinos who seem capable,but its now clear that they are really a degree educated, lower paid option than the Tefler who resides here, or comes here to work in a gap year.

I am of course biased being British and of course I think it should be British teachers, as after all its where the language originates from.!

I am sure other will disagree for a number of reasons, but I am entitled to my opinion.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Is a layman permitted to treat sick patients?

So lets check your qualifications?

Degree? Advanced degrees? Languages spoken? Years teaching a language?

Years in the Education business? Number of Filipinos you have worked/taught with?

Other nationalities you have taught with? Advanced or basic language teaching skills courses you have taken?

Do you really have a qualified opinion?

Whats it got to do with My degree status ? Stick to the points, I notice that have yet to reply to being British or American! Does one protest too much ??

I can only base my experience on what I see daily and I see little improvement in the ability of Thai children taught by anyone to be fair to speak English on a daily basis.

You are posting to two different people. I'm an American with ancestors on both the winning and losing side in the American Revolutionary war. I have taught on a college level in both Thailand and America. I have not noticed any difference in English language speaking ability between Americans or Brits. However, Brits seem to be able to understand Americans whereas Americans have a hard time understanding Brits. I think that is why BBC subtitles so many presenters when broadcasting in the USA.

I have worked in hundreds of American and Thai classrooms. The teacher is key not where the teacher was born. I think most educated folks would agree with me on that point.

It is difficult for Thais to say some sounds and it is difficult for Brits to say some sounds. I find Thais have a hard time with the, "th" sound and Brits have a hard time with the "Sorry I was wrong" sound.

[Nickthegreek]

In an ideal world, Thailand would spend its money wisely on education and hire native English speakers from Country's which first language is English, sadly due to funding they hire Filipinos who seem capable,but its now clear that they are really a degree educated, lower paid option than the Tefler who resides here, or comes here to work in a gap year.

I am of course biased being British and of course I think it should be British teachers, as after all its where the language originates from.!

I am sure other will disagree for a number of reasons, but I am entitled to my opinion.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Is a layman permitted to treat sick patients?

So lets check your qualifications?

Degree? Advanced degrees? Languages spoken? Years teaching a language?

Years in the Education business? Number of Filipinos you have worked/taught with?

Other nationalities you have taught with? Advanced or basic language teaching skills courses you have taken?

Do you really have a qualified opinion?

Whats it got to do with My degree status ? Stick to the points, I notice that have yet to reply to being British or American! Does one protest too much ??

I can only base my experience on what I see daily and I see little improvement in the ability of Thai children taught by anyone to be fair to speak English on a daily basis.

You are posting to two different people. I'm an American with ancestors on both the winning and losing side in the American Revolutionary war. I have taught on a college level in both Thailand and America. I have not noticed any difference in English language speaking ability between Americans or Brits. However, Brits seem to be able to understand Americans whereas Americans have a hard time understanding Brits. I think that is why BBC subtitles so many presenters when broadcasting in the USA.

I have worked in hundreds of American and Thai classrooms. The teacher is key not where the teacher was born. I think most educated folks would agree with me on that point.

It is difficult for Thais to say some sounds and it is difficult for Brits to say some sounds. I find Thais have a hard time with the, "th" sound and Brits have a hard time with the "Sorry I was wrong" sound.

You are entitled to your opinion Professor, I have nothing further to add, because as a Brit I am always wrong when there is an American in the room.

in the words of the good ole USA "Have a Nice Day "

Goodbye

[futureexpat]

To teach a language, does 1 need to be a native ?

I think its a good start to be native at least! As just yesterday I was speaking to a friend of a friend that is Chinese's and he is a qualified Chinese teacher here in Bangkok, and he was joking to me that there are French and Spanish English Teacher here in Thailand with heavy accents. He taught it was hilarious!

Don't shot the messengers here please.....

well, your friends probably "thought" and not "taught".... this from a non-native English speaking Swiss...

the majority of my language teachers (for German, French, English, Italian) have NOT been native in the languages the taught but had the proper education and degrees to teach those languages. And honestly, reading on this forum, there are quite a few English native speakers who's English would not get them through Swiss High School exams...

and since you are talking about a weekend camp... what level of English are the kids supposed to learn? Basic sentences like "where do you come from" (English version) or "where you come from" (Thai version) or "what is your name" (English version) or "what you call" (Thai version)? For basics, you don't need native speakers, just somebody who can speak, read and write the language without making too many mistakes.

It's always amusing to see the many basic mistakes made by the grammar and spelling police, especially in threads dealing with the English language.

I'm just having some fun with you. I actually agree with you that much of what's being written here by native English speakers with strong opinions on this subject leaves a lot to be desired.

[wilcopops]

Perhaps, perhaps not. Is a layman permitted to treat sick patients?

So lets check your qualifications?

Degree? Advanced degrees? Languages spoken? Years teaching a language?

Years in the Education business? Number of Filipinos you have worked/taught with?

Other nationalities you have taught with? Advanced or basic language teaching skills courses you have taken?

Do you really have a qualified opinion?

Whats it got to do with My degree status ? Stick to the points, I notice that have yet to reply to being British or American! Does one protest too much ??

I can only base my experience on what I see daily and I see little improvement in the ability of Thai children taught by anyone to be fair to speak English on a daily basis.

You are posting to two different people. I'm an American with ancestors on both the winning and losing side in the American Revolutionary war. I have taught on a college level in both Thailand and America. I have not noticed any difference in English language speaking ability between Americans or Brits. However, Brits seem to be able to understand Americans whereas Americans have a hard time understanding Brits. I think that is why BBC subtitles so many presenters when broadcasting in the USA.

I have worked in hundreds of American and Thai classrooms. The teacher is key not where the teacher was born. I think most educated folks would agree with me on that point.

It is difficult for Thais to say some sounds and it is difficult for Brits to say some sounds. I find Thais have a hard time with the, "th" sound and Brits have a hard time with the "Sorry I was wrong" sound.

You are entitled to your opinion Professor, I have nothing further to add, because as a Brit I am always wrong when there is an American in the room.

in the words of the good ole USA "Have a Nice Day "

Goodbye

"I can only base my experience on what I see daily" - which is probably the worst way of assessing any form of education - especially if you know diddly from the start

[wilcopops]

At the level of a weekend or weeklong English camp, it hardly matters. I suspect the children don't learn much anyway and will forget what they do learn very quickly after. Sorry your GF has to fund this.

That said, my experience is that native speakers are not always the best teachers. It depends on the individual and the needs of the student. I have a friend, a native Russian-speaker, who teaches English online quite successfully. His students are adults, and they need points of grammar and idiom explained to them in their own language. I substituted for him a couple of times and I can say that I couldn't do what he does.

I also have a Thai friend teaching for a long time in public school. They have had a succession of English teachers from countries such as Kenya, Jamaica, and Ireland. The teachers don't stay long in general, and the kids are now thoroughly confused. Consistent training, even from a less-skilled speaker, would be better for them. I myself have had a few native teachers of Thai language who were not good teachers at all.

The best teacher would be fluent and literate in both the target language and the student's native language, have a sound understanding of the principles of

learning, and have substantial dedication and pride in a job well done. In that case, it doesn't really matter if that person is a native speaker of the target language or not. I have met both Thai persons, educated here or overseas, and Farang who meet those criteria. Unfortunately for English instruction here, these individuals generally are interested in higher-paying (and higher status) work.

"At the level of a weekend or weeklong English camp, it hardly matters. I suspect the children don't learn much anyway and will forget what they do learn very quickly after." - and that is your considered professional opinion?

[wilcopops]

Everyone’s an expert!

This has got to be some kind of record for the amount of utter nonsense posted in one thread.

“Unskilled”

“Unprofessional”

And “good”

What on earth are people talking about? They have absolutely no idea of what constitutes a “skilled” “professional” or “good” teacher yet are prepared to scribble down reams on the subject.

I find it astounding that people will accept the word of some “professionals” without question and just assume they must be right; doctors, plumbers, electricians, mechanics, lawyers and accountants, no problem, but when it comes to education - a subject of massive complexity, everyone’s an expert.

Yes, there are a lot of flaky practitioners in education whose enterprises are little more than scams, but the criteria discussed on this thread (v. above) are simply not viable. Most of the people here wouldn’t be able to identify one if the guy stood in front of them wearing a t-shirt saying “Beware flaky teacher”

Please don’t try and make a definition because judging by the rubbish posted so far, all that will happen is a series of nape-of-the-neck assumptions about what a teacher should be.

So you're saying we should blindly accept the "expert" opinion of doctors, plumbers, electricians, mechanics, lawyers and accountants and also assume some moron could be a qualified English teacher unless and until an expert tells us otherwise? From what we've all seen in the "education" forum, quite a few potential teachers are doing the equivalent of wearing a t-shirt saying “Beware flaky teacher." I don't need to be a mechanic to know I have a flat tire/tyre before me.

And then there is the problem of regional idioms, heavy accents and quaint colloquialisms introduced before someone has a clear grasp of the fundamentals or an "ear" for the language.

I recall a school in the Middle East that hired a number of Irish teachers of English. They were probably qualified and experienced, but even native English speakers couldn't fathom half of what some of them were saying.

Please don’t try and make a definition ... ??

or

Please don't try to make (formulate?) a definition ...??

Setting standards is a tricky business.

...and there you have a p[erfect example of what I'm talking about....can't read/comprehend a post and thinks they know enough to correct English but actually gets it ALL wrong - QED

(I'd be interested to hear your ideas of use of "they" as 3rd person singular and the concomitant verbal agreements).

Edited May 30, 2014 by wilcopops

[Jimbolai]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

To teach a language, does 1 need to be a native speaker ?

No, I have had fellow teachers from the Ukraine who where very good English teachers. If the students like them and learn it should be OK.

[mrowe1973]

What do you want for 30,000 Bhat a month? Seriously!

[wilcopops]

It is qute tragic to read comments here by people who speak a particular kind of English that they consider to be "correct" - (Ha! Ha! Ha!) and then have the temerity to suggest that they know what 'good" English is.....all it shows is a profound ignorance of the nature of English. This is then accompanied by an equally profound ignorance of what eduction is and how it can be measured.

experts one and all!

[thailiketoo]

...and there you have a p[erfect example of what I'm talking about....can't read/comprehend a post and thinks they know enough to correct English but actually gets it ALL wrong - QED

(I'd be interested to hear your ideas of use of "they" as 3rd person singular and the concomitant verbal agreements).

I think anyone would agree that if the average Thai spoke English on the level of an American, Canadian or British 7 year old child the English teachers of Thailand would have more than accomplished their goals.

Keeping with that thought I asked the 7 year old next door your question, "your ideas of use of "they" as 3rd person singular and the concomitant verbal agreements."

[Nickthegreek]

Wilcopops

If I had said that I have seen no improvement over 8 years, I am sure you would have another witty comment !

Incidentally after 8 years I now speak Thai to a very high conversational level and I am approaching my 50's..Go figure

I see Thai Children and a daily basis,at My Daughters school and at My wife's business and whilst I can communicate with them in Thai, none of them ever speak to me in English... So I must be wrong then to base my assumptions on what I see.

[Zooheekock]

I find it astounding that people will accept the word of some “professionals” without question and just assume they must be right; doctors, plumbers, electricians, mechanics, lawyers and accountants, no problem, but when it comes to education - a subject of massive complexity, everyone’s an expert.

Yes, true enough, though you might add languge to education on the very short list of topics on which everyone is an expert. And unfortunately the intersection of the two falls, in Thailand, on the narrow, underfed shoulders of the English teacher.

[wilcopops]

...and there you have a p[erfect example of what I'm talking about....can't read/comprehend a post and thinks they know enough to correct English but actually gets it ALL wrong - QED

(I'd be interested to hear your ideas of use of "they" as 3rd person singular and the concomitant verbal agreements).

I think anyone would agree that if the average Thai spoke English on the level of an American, Canadian or British 7 year old child the English teachers of Thailand would have more than accomplished their goals.

Keeping with that thought I asked the 7 year old next door your question, "your ideas of use of "they" as 3rd person singular and the concomitant verbal agreements."

"7 year old child" - OK How have you decided on that particular criteria? - do you know how to assess language ability? I think not -Do you realise for instance what someone with a "7 year old" reading ability is expected to achieve - well it is a system used to quantify language ability and you seem completely unaware of this. For instance can you read and understand most of the SUN newspaper in the UK? Good! That means you have have the reading ability of a 7 year old.......recognise anything there?

Edited May 30, 2014 by wilcopops

[thailiketoo]

What do you want for 30,000 Bhat a month? Seriously!

Below would be OK. I think you can get three Thai dancing instructors for around 30.

[Zooheekock]

I see Thai Children and a daily basis,at My Daughters school and at My wife's business and whilst I can communicate with them in Thai, none of them ever speak to me in English...

Thai people in Thailand outside a Thai school talking to a Thai-speaker in Thai? My God! Whatever next?

Edited May 30, 2014 by Zooheekock

[wilcopops]

I find it astounding that people will accept the word of some “professionals” without question and just assume they must be right; doctors, plumbers, electricians, mechanics, lawyers and accountants, no problem, but when it comes to education - a subject of massive complexity, everyone’s an expert.

Yes, true enough, though you might add languge to education on the very short list of topics on which everyone is an expert. And unfortunately the intersection of the two falls, in Thailand, on the narrow, underfed shoulders of the English teacher.

" on the narrow, underfed shoulders of the English teacher." - like so much on this thread, a totally subjective and unsubstantiated comment

[thailiketoo]

...and there you have a p[erfect example of what I'm talking about....can't read/comprehend a post and thinks they know enough to correct English but actually gets it ALL wrong - QED

(I'd be interested to hear your ideas of use of "they" as 3rd person singular and the concomitant verbal agreements).

I think anyone would agree that if the average Thai spoke English on the level of an American, Canadian or British 7 year old child the English teachers of Thailand would have more than accomplished their goals.

Keeping with that thought I asked the 7 year old next door your question, "your ideas of use of "they" as 3rd person singular and the concomitant verbal agreements."

"7 year old child" - OK How have you decided on that particular criteria? - do you know how to assess language ability? I think not -Do you realise for instance what someone with a "7 year old" reading ability is expected to achieve - well it is a system used to quantify language ability and you seem completely unaware of this. For instance can you read and understand most of the SUN newspaper in the UK? Good! That means you have have the reading ability of a 7 year old.......recognise anything there?

Most newspapers are written at a 6th grade level. For the average Thai person a 7 year old native speaking and comprehension level would be great.

[Jimbolai]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

To teach a language, does 1 need to be a native ?

I think its a good start to be native at least! As just yesterday I was speaking to a friend of a friend that is Chinese's and he is a qualified Chinese teacher here in Bangkok, and he was joking to me that there are French and Spanish English Teacher here in Thailand with heavy accents. He taught it was hilarious!

Don't shot the messengers here please.....

Hmmmm..i come from The Netherlands and it is mandatory that kids start to learn 3 other languages when they start high school. English, french and german. Do you really think that we have thousands of natives from those countries teaching their respective languages ?

Well that would be 2 and a half language. As German speaker I can more or less understand dutch and can read it....Once on a holiday I was couple of days with Dutch people and after 4 days you understand 95 %.

Not much to learn here.

Most, close to all, Dutch people speak English very well. Germans, not good at all but they get an A+ in bad mouthing others.

[Zooheekock]

" on the narrow, underfed shoulders of the English teacher." - like so much on this thread, a totally subjective and unsubstantiated comment

Jesus Christ. You could probably turn down the willingness to take offence a notch or two, you know. I'm sure you've got a fine, manly, frame just bursting to break out of your polycotton Big C shirt.

[wilcopops]

" on the narrow, underfed shoulders of the English teacher." - like so much on this thread, a totally subjective and unsubstantiated comment

Jesus Christ. You could probably turn down the willingness to take offence a notch or two, you know. I'm sure you've got a fine, manly, frame just bursting to break out of your polycotton Big C shirt.

further totally unsubstantiated assumptions - it was a perfectly reasonable assessment of your post, confirmed by your response.

Edited May 30, 2014 by wilcopops

[vogie]

How do you know they had any white NES?

Hmm Good point! But I Taught all these English Camps had Falang Teacher's, My bad on that one.

But I have met a few non native English Teacher in Bangkok that told me they do these weekend English Camps.....

I tawt I taw a puddy tat... sorry, but as it is about English Language Teachers I had to have a dig... ..can you please tell me what exactly is done at these weekend camps? I only ask because my brother in law is now headmaster of the village school, before, among other things,he was also the English teacher, yet he still cannot put one sentence together.

Most of these English camps are as AFJ says, some Thai English teachers that speak little or no English.

Sometimes a Filipino or two that sort of speak English.

I also know a Russian English teacher, and a Dutch English teacher, neither of which you would want teaching Thais English.

(But they all work cheap!)

The camps usually aren't worthwhile educationally, but might be a bit of fun.

Most Dutch people I have met speak better english than the English