Long Time Overstay No Problem

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Truly amazing how quickly people forget.

Only a few months ago the "know it alls" were panicking about the false Satun 804 Visas they had obtained through Agents and the Immigration Department suddenly decided to launch a crackdown.

It's impossible to explain or reason with some people, but they will cry like babies if - when - the Immigration Department decides to play tough on this one too, and, of course, blame everyone but themselves.

Exactly. The banshee like wailings were chilling...but it was never the punters fault. Victims of circumstance

[mrmnp]

Are we noT talking about "risk evaluation" here?

Some people drive defensively and otherS drive taking risks. The statistics favor those who drive defensively.

In evaluating the "risks" of overstay, the political landscape suggests that the risks of overstay are increasing, considering the following facts:

1. Thaksins move to the right which augurs for increased enforcement of laws.

2. Immigration department getting computers that talk to each other in 2004.

3. Worldwide push to battle terrorism and increased tracking of individuals.

4. Immigration department getting tougher ie. 90 reporting enforcement.

5. Thai economic health no longer commands catering to farang for income.

6. Drug enforcement increases monitoring of farang.

7. Fee increases for everything relating to Immigration.

Experience taught me to drive defensively and stay away from those who do otherwise. Thank you but I shall continue to follow the law. Good luck to the risk takers, they will need it.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Are we noT talking about "risk evaluation" here?

Some people drive defensively and otherS drive taking risks. The statistics favor those who drive defensively.

In evaluating the "risks" of overstay, the political landscape suggests that the risks of overstay are increasing, considering the following facts:

1. Thaksins move to the right which augurs for increased enforcement of laws.

2. Immigration department getting computers that talk to each other in 2004.

3. Worldwide push to battle terrorism and increased tracking of individuals.

4. Immigration department getting tougher ie. 90 reporting enforcement.

5. Thai economic health no longer commands catering to farang for income.

6. Drug enforcement increases monitoring of farang.

7. Fee increases for everything relating to Immigration.

Experience taught me to drive defensively and stay away from those who do otherwise. Thank you but I shall continue to follow the law. Good luck to the risk takers, they will need it.

Well put. The Detention Center is absolutely horrific. It makes the Bangkok Hilton seem 3 star.

[p_brownstone]

There often seems to be - perhaps not a racist attitude - but certainly a sort of superiority complex in the way some people behave in these matters; you can almost hear them thinking .......... "these people can institute whatever petty little regulations they feel like, but they certainly do not apply to me - I'm a Farang" .

Then of course when they DO get caught and discover that not every problem in Thailand can be solved by throwing money at it, the cry goes up "anti-farang government", "police harassment" etc..

[dr_Pat_Pong]

There often seems to be - perhaps not a racist attitude - but certainly a sort of superiority complex in the way some people behave in these matters; you can almost hear them thinking .......... "these people can institute whatever petty little regulations they feel like, but they certainly do not apply to me - I'm a Farang" .

Then of course when they DO get caught and discover that not every problem in Thailand can be solved by throwing money at it, the cry goes up "anti-farang government", "police harassment" etc..

The Return of the Master Race with some extra nations tossed in. Many of the people are but the flotsam and jetsam of life.

[stopper]

What if some day soon, the Thai government enacts a law that anyone who has had a previous overstay cannot enter the Kingdom? Make it a blacklist offense? Impossible? We shall see....

[davethailand]

maybe not that extreme, this follows my point,

but if you are caught,

som nam na !

[dr_Pat_Pong]

maybe not that extreme, this follows my point,

but if you are caught,

som nam na !

Serial overstayers are convinced they can do as they please. In fact people like that are making things harder, even for the compliant foreigners.

[mrmnp]

dr pat: My prior post tried to reach the chronic overstayers on their level, evaluating risk.

Now I would like to addresss RESPECT! For Thailand and its laws.

How much respect are you showing Thailand, its officials and the law by flaunting immigration laws?

Sure you can not stand up in the cinema when the Kings picture comes on and no one will do anything to you. What have you proved? You got away with something? No, your disrespect for the country in which you are a guest. Likewise the law of Thailand, which after all, is the only thing preventing chaos.

Fortunately, the majority of us in this forum dress appropriately, follow the law and show respect for Thailand and its people, so that they, in return, continue to view us as welcome and respected guests in their country.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

dr pat: My prior post tried to reach the chronic overstayers on their level, evaluating risk.

Now I would like to addresss RESPECT! For Thailand and its laws.

How much respect are you showing Thailand, its officials and the law by flaunting immigration laws?

Sure you can not stand up in the cinema when the Kings picture comes on and no one will do anything to you. What have you proved? You got away with something? No, your disrespect for the country in which you are a guest. Likewise the law of Thailand, which after all, is the only thing preventing chaos.

Fortunately, the majority of us in this forum dress appropriately, follow the law and show respect for Thailand and its people, so that they, in return, continue to view us as welcome and respected guests in their country.

I thought that I did do that too....mostly.

[ChiangMaiThai]

He is breaking the law CMT ... however you cut it, he is breaking the law.

Okay, but then why do immigration except $500 at the airport send you on your way AND permit you to come back and visit Thailand again? It is these types of contradictions that only encourage the behaviour that you and others here don't like to see. If immigration at the airport simply took long overstayers to jail and then deported them, then the case is closed. Few, if any would do a long overstay. But they want the money don't they?

[george]

Thread about the French Embassy dangerous overstay advise in Bangkok moved here:

Embassy in Bangkok says "20 days overstay no problem!"

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=7499

[ChiangMaiThai]

dr pat: My prior post tried to reach the chronic overstayers on their level, evaluating risk.

Now I would like to addresss RESPECT! For Thailand and its laws.

How much respect are you showing Thailand, its officials and the law by flaunting immigration laws?

Sure you can not stand up in the cinema when the Kings picture comes on and no one will do anything to you. What have you proved? You got away with something? No, your disrespect for the country in which you are a guest. Likewise the law of Thailand, which after all, is the only thing preventing chaos.

Fortunately, the majority of us in this forum dress appropriately, follow the law and show respect for Thailand and its people, so that they, in return, continue to view us as welcome and respected guests in their country.

You guys are missing the point. Its in the hands of immigration. If they were concerned about Thailand's laws as much as you, they would deport all long overstayers, not accept a $500 'fine'.

Its similar to the wholedebate about consecutive 30 day stamps. As long as the immigration people stamp the same guy in and out month after month then people will stay here long term on 30 day stays. If this behaviour so offends Thailand, then IT IS IN THEIR HANDS, simply tell the walker (I love that term Pat Pong ) that they must leave the country and they may return with a legitimate visa. AND THAT IS THAT. Its over. No more walkers flaunting the law and even disrespecting it as you say. BUT IMMIGRATION DOES NOT ENFORCE THE RULE. Guys come here, like it, don't qualify for 'real' visas and so decide to get stamped in and out monthly. It works for the vast majority of people without any problems. (Although I have heard stories about problems at Thai consulates in SE Asia. It seems you are safer going to the border every month).

They have the power and authority, which neither I nor any other farang can question. So if some of you are unhappy with the behaviours of other farnags in respect to immigration laws, your dissatisfaction should be directed directly at Immigration not at the farangs who rightly assume that what they are doing is okay because immigration does not tell them otherwise.

Doctor, I'm still waiting to see what happens to the walkers in July. Since August of last year when this forum was full of warnings about the impending end to the walkers, every walker I know has gone to the border every month and returned without event.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

That was at the same time the rest of the foreign shadies with agent visa's and crooked visa's from overseas were active CMT. But witness the inexplicable variations made by Immigration to retirement visa's. Long after the finamcial requirements were announced, they announced that the 800,000 would remain It is hard to comprehend. Your support of serial overstayers, together with suggestions of legality for such actions is hardly defensible CMT. That is an instant bang up and deportation if they are caught before fronting the departure line with baht 20 k in hand. Stick to your new venture ( and I wish you luck )

[astral]

Some people with repeated overstay stamps are declined entry into some other countries, particularly UK and USA. Be careful.

Time to put the passport in the washing machine,

then get a new one.

[Pi Sua]

Some people with repeated overstay stamps are declined entry into some other countries, particularly UK and USA. Be careful.

Time to put the passport in the washing machine,

then get a new one.

Washing machine is not enough. Need a very powerfull computer virus to destroy all the database.

I wonder if Thailand and other countries have a commun computer file about the overtays....

If not, it's going to be the way....and not only for the overstays....

[Lovinda]

I currently overstay by 3 months.. because I don't have enough money at the moment to pay (was stupid enough to let some of my poorer thai friends borrow my money a couple of months ago when I had enough to pay my (then) little overstay fine). As they still cannot afford to pay me back, I'd have to wait yet another month before I can go to Pinang. I am sometimes out on a motorbike here in Phuket, and so far I've been lucky not to be asked for more than my driver's license. I always drive safely, never speeding, respecting red light stops,

wearing helmet and lights on also in daylight hours. So the police is just all smiles when they check papers. But I do feel very uncomfortable every time I see the police officers along the road or wherever I see them. As another posted, you never know when they'd ask for more than your driver's license. But I guess if you don't mess up the traffic regulations the chance of them asking for more than license at random checkpoints is slim...

Alas, for me, I do not enjoy being an overstayer.. I feel nervous every time I just go shopping or going to the post office. If I had 20'000 baht right now, I'd hop on the first bus to Pinang! But reading about other's very long overstays was pretty good, making my "only" 3 months seem a very short overstay time. What will happen if they check my passport on the bus on my way to Pinang to clear my overstay? Boarding buses to check passports isn't very common is it? Every time I've been a passenger in a car and being stopped roadside, they only take a brief look at me, while checking the driver's documents.

[huski]

If immigration at the airport simply took long overstayers to jail and then deported them, then the case is closed. Few, if any would do a long overstay. But they want the money don't they?

how many overstays do you think come through the airport and borders everyday? alot.

if you worked at an immigration would you want to deal with screaming, pissed off farangs all day long as you cuff them and take them to jail. or would you rather collect a fine and stamp their passport, think about why things are how they are the airport.

get picked up on the street and those handcuffs hurt baby, different story and a very sad one thats only starting.

bottom line, making an overstay part of your travel plans you are playing russian roulette. long time overstay and you looking over your shoulder all the time, lame.

But reading about other's very long overstays was pretty good, making my "only" 3 months seem a very short overstay time. What will happen if they check my passport on the bus on my way to Pinang to clear my overstay?

maybe i should dig up the post of the guy that was one day overstay laying in bed early morning, when immigration made a sweep of his guesthouse. one day overstay people! was leaving that afternoon planned on going to the airport no problem, instead he was sent to jail for awhile.

[terdsak_12]

The sky is falling, The sky is falling!

[M23]

ChiangMaiThai has a very precise and distinctive opinion.

Overstaying is breaking the law with an eye twinkle because it is a recommended procedure not only by the Embassies but by the immigration authorities too.

It is breaking the law "de jure" but not "de facto".

The same information as Bruno got from the French Embassy did I get from the German Embassy and from the most famous lawyer in Pattaya handling already a lot of overstay cases.

Important are two things.

To pay the necessary amount either 200 B per day or 20000 B after 100 days up

and not to be caught prior crossing the Thai border.

I remember an officer in the pre-last attempt as I crossed the border at terminal 2 asking him after 7 months overstay what could be wrong with those attitudes and believe it or not: He recommended to stay 2 or 3 years just under the premise not to be caught.

This is the reality and all other things are speculation.

M23

[ChiangMaiThai]

how many overstays do you think come through the airport and borders everyday? alot.

if you worked at an immigration would you want to deal with screaming, pissed off farangs all day long as you cuff them and take them to jail. or would you rather collect a fine and stamp their passport, think about why things are how they are the airport.

So you're saying that because immigration just doesn't want to 'deal' with pissed off foreigners that they figure its better to take $500 and send them on their way? Then once again, they obviously care less about long overstayers than you do. Otherwise, it would be well known that you do not overstay because you will be sent to jail and then be deported. Instead, it is well known among farangs, embassies AND immigration that if you make it to the airport, no problem AND you can even come back. Does this not simply invite overstayers and imply that 'look its okay, just make sure you get yourself to the airport'.

Doctor, I don't neccessarily support long overstyaers, but I think that they are simply evaluating the risks and making a decision. Its illegal, but only sort of, because if you make it to that counter, you're fine and you're still in Thailand. Its not like you snuck across the border at night.

I agree too that the rules could change at any time. For what its worth I am compeltley legit and of course it brings peace of mind.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

ChiangMaiThai has a very precise and distinctive opinion.

Overstaying is breaking the law with an eye twinkle because it is a recommended procedure not only by the Embassies but by the immigration authorities too.

It is breaking the law "de jure" but not "de facto".

The same information as Bruno got from the French Embassy did I get from the German Embassy and from the most famous lawyer in Pattaya handling already a lot of overstay cases.

Important are two things.

To pay the necessary amount either 200 B per day or 20000 B after 100 days up

and not to be caught prior crossing the Thai border.

I remember an officer in the pre-last attempt as I crossed the border at terminal 2 asking him after 7 months overstay what could be wrong with those attitudes and believe it or not: He recommended to stay 2 or 3 years just under the premise not to be caught.

This is the reality and all other things are speculation.

M23

I wonder why the most famous lawyer in Pattaya is handling " a lot of overstay cases " if overstaying is not against the law ?

[huski]

how many overstays do you think come through the airport and borders everyday? alot.

if you worked at an immigration would you want to deal with screaming, pissed off farangs all day long as you cuff them and take them to jail. or would you rather collect a fine and stamp their passport, think about why things are how they are the airport.

So you're saying that because immigration just doesn't want to 'deal' with pissed off foreigners that they figure its better to take $500 and send them on their way? Then once again, they obviously care less about long overstayers than you do.

"think about why things are how they are at the airport" means this is how overstay is usually treated at the airport, due to the volume of traffic coming through.

Does this not simply invite overstayers and imply that 'look its okay, just make sure you get yourself to the airport'.

yes it does imply that it's not a big deal, however it is.

being picked up on the street by immigration and you will be arrested. i DON'T wish the immigration detention center for anyone.

Doctor, I don't neccessarily support long overstyaers, but I think that they are simply evaluating the risks and making a decision. Its illegal, but only sort of, because if you make it to that counter, you're fine and you're still in Thailand. Its not like you snuck across the border at night.

take a good look at the picture of the cage ChiangMaiThai, you still want to say "it's illegal, but only sort of" ?

He recommended to stay 2 or 3 years just under the premise not to be caught.

This is the reality and all other things are speculation.

an officer telling you it's ok to overstay 2 or 3 years as long you as you are not caught

I wonder why the most famous lawyer in Pattaya is handling " a lot of overstay cases " if overstaying is not against the law ?

you're right

[Bozo]

[davethailand @ Thu 2004-03-11, 08:09:17]it's nice not having to worry about getting caught because you're cheating the system.

-----------------------

[ChiangMaiThai @ Thu 2004-03-11, 15:37:53]

M23 is not cheating the system. He understands the system and he is operating within its rules.

The rules, as they are enforced state that if you are on overstay, as long as you make it to the counter at the airport, no matter how many months or years you have overstayed, you pay a maximum 20,000 Baht fine and all is forgiven. If you get caught before you make it to the airport, you go to the Hilton.

He knows the rules, has assessed the risks and decided on a course of action.

It may not be for everyone, but it is wrong to state that he is cheating the system. Often times the people that get most upset with those like M23 are the ones who have gone to great lengths to do every single thing by the book. And there's nothing wrong with doing things by the book. But these people seem to get extremely aggravated when someone operates from a different perspective. I don't believe for a second that those who overstay are responsible for giving all farangs a bad name here.

To each his own.

----------------------

[dr_Pat_Pong,Thu 2004-03-11, 23:31:41]

He is breaking the law CMT ... however you cut it, he is breaking the law.

Aren't you both right ?

Indeed, it is obvious that overstaying more than the allowed number of overstaying days is strictly illegal (and therefore not recommended), even if fines have been organized at this respect to handle such cases smoothly & profitably for Thailand (pragmatic & clever people!).

Also, it is a fact that M23 is not cheating with the system, he does accept the rules of the system. He is taking his chances between respecting the legality or not: if he get caught, he will pay the "Hilton"++ price, if he can make it to the airport, he will pay the THB 20,000 price.

He would be cheating with the system if he would for instance get caught and pay the law enforcement officer for not paying the "Hilton"++ price...

Now if one want to argue on the rights & wrongs, or on the goods & bads of this action (and its possible future consequences for others), this is then a judgemental matter of opinion (very interesting, actually), not facts anymore...

[Bozo]

ChiangMaiThai has a very precise and distinctive opinion.

Overstaying is breaking the law with an eye twinkle because it is a recommended procedure not only by the Embassies but by the immigration authorities too.

It is breaking the law "de jure" but not "de facto".

The same information as Bruno got from the French Embassy did I get from the German Embassy and from the most famous lawyer in Pattaya handling already a lot of overstay cases.

Important are two things.

To pay the necessary amount either 200 B per day or 20000 B after 100 days up

and not to be caught prior crossing the Thai border.

I remember an officer in the pre-last attempt as I crossed the border at terminal 2 asking him after 7 months overstay what could be wrong with those attitudes and believe it or not: He recommended to stay 2 or 3 years just under the premise not to be caught.

This is the reality and all other things are speculation.

M23

Isn't it one of the reasons why we are all in Thailand !?!... its culture !...

...because it might be one of the only countries in the World, where an issue can be legally solved in 2 ways, depending on pure chance:

1. One "happy way", the TBH 20,000 at the airport, if you are lucky.

2. One "hard way", the "Hilton"++, if you are unlucky and get caught before the airport.

And the choice of these ways is not really anybody to control: call it fate, chance, luck.... whatever (you are then in Buddah's hands)! Doesn't it remind you of the obvious Thai (and more generally Asian) addiction for games & gambling !?!... that's it, you got it.

It is actually one more hint of the difference in the ways of thinking between Western and Asian people. What would probably be legally unthinkable in a Western country (this rule), is legally & commonly accepted as normal in Thailand.

This explains why you have at this occasion a wide smile from the Immigration officer at the airport + a blink or a joke on top of it, and you find yourself totally bluffed... don't you realize that you were probably a sunshine in the day of this same officer, as he/she met a lucky one, You! (it is then also good luck for him/her)....

Welcome in Asia, all of you !!!...

[shellman]

You are not right about 2 things -

1) you don't go to the Hilton for Overstay but to the IDC (Immigration Detention Center) which is not better anyway - even worse on some ways.

2) The Thai Authorities never send you home if you do not have money to buy a ticket - you must take care of your ticket yourself, if you are lucky, your embassy will pay for it. There is one guy from Algeria in IDC Room 8 who has been in IDC for 5 years. If you don't believe it - go there and visit him, his name is Isa.

BUT - If you have money you will never be there for more then 3 days - that is about how long it takes for the officers to process your case. I have seen many cases in there in my 7 years as a volunteer. But for some people who can not afford to pay the fine for the overstay - they still can turn themself in - in that case you get sentenced by a court to usually 1500 Baht (if you turn yourself in - if you get cought it can be anything from 3000 - 10000) - if you can not pay even that ammount - you stay in the IDC for 15 days (200 Baht is deducted from your fine each day - that counts from the day you turned yourself in or have been arrested).

Anyway - the best thing is to make sure that you either don't overstay or don't get cought and don't run out of money!

Just my opinion.

[huski]

shellman, i appreciate your post and expecially coming from a volunteer at IDC. you must have seen just about everything in 7 years.

1. One "happy way", the TBH 20,000 at the airport, if you are lucky.

2. One "hard way", the "Hilton"++, if you are unlucky and get caught before the airport.

shellman, maybe you can educate "bozo" and others that door number 2 is not just "unlucky" it's a horrible experience.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

shellman, i appreciate your post and expecially coming from a volunteer at IDC. you must have seen just about everything in 7 years.

1. One "happy way", the TBH 20,000 at the airport, if you are lucky.

2. One "hard way", the "Hilton"++, if you are unlucky and get caught before the airport.

shellman, maybe you can educate "bozo" and others that door number 2 is not just "unlucky" it's a horrible experience.

Perhaps Shellman could arrange tours of the IDC for the optimists who support the idea of flaunting the immigration laws of Thailand. That'd pour water on some of their ideas. Thanks for your welcome contribution Shellman.

[ChiangMaiThai]

Doctor, even before I looked at the cage, I would never overstay 2 years. I get paranoid about 2 days.

But nevertheless, for those who look at the cage and still try to make it to the airport counter clutching 20,000 baht, the best of luck to you. Thai immigration is inviting you to play the game. If you have good reasons to play it, then I hope you win.

[huski]

Thai immigration is inviting you to play the game. If you have good reasons to play it, then I hope you win.

ChiangMaiThai, for some reason it doesn't matter how many posts you read, you just don't get it. you have commented that its "illegal sort of" and now its a game.

football is a game, not overstay.