Immune System Question

[greenwanderer108]

These past few days, I've been struck with a horrible cold-fever that gets me thinking delerious during the sleeping hours. Perhaps I got it from my son, though he hasn't shown any obvious strong symptoms the past few weeks. Or perhaps, I got it from somewhere else, which I'd be worried if my 3 month old son got it from me and it was something serious like Dengue or Bird Flue.

I've had a mild case of denge my first time in Thailand, of which my immune system was able to eventually fight off after 4 or 5 days of misery sleeping under a misquito net in the boonies. I've also had another huge flue-fever a few years ago of which I was convinced that it was the bird flue as there was a big break out then, and it was a horrible experience that wasn't like previous fevers. (I hate hospitals and paying someone to tell me to drink lots of fluids and rest, subscribing a bottle of pills to top it off)

Oh yea, I also got a break out of Chicken pox (German measles???) when I was 20, which put me in misery on a bed for well over a month...

So anyway, my question is regarding viruses and immune systems. Why is it that for common colds, flues, and other viruses like Chicken Pox, kids immune systems are much more efficient-sufficient and can fight them off quicker and easier than adults, but when it comes to Bird Flue or Dengue type of diseases, kids immune sytems are more vulnerable, less effective???

Cheers

[tracker]

me thinks that kids recovery system is much faster than adults (remember how fast you recovered from that hangover when you were young?), so in case of "light" diseases, the jump back to health in kids is much faster. The more serious diseases makes both kids and adults very sick, but it is the reserves, back-up strength which an adult has, which gives an edge.

Also food is an issue. You might have had healthier food in your time than your son has now....

another scary thing: many vaccines contain methyl mecury, a conservative for the serums and already prohibited in 6 US states, but still widespread in the world, isn't doing anybodies health any good.

Read on the subject. If it was my kid, no vaccine would ever be given to him/her...

[Mark L.]

tracker-I agree with the vaccines. I had a student ask me about them. I was a bit scared of them at the time I htought it risky but hadn't really looked into. The more research I did the more I found them to be dangerous and scary... Little proof of effectiveness at best.

I also believe that every vaccine you get weakens the immune system. Infact it gets interesting when you look at immune system disporders and meds, vaccines or recreational drugs.. Some pretty clear links

I think kids thinking is less flawed and negative. We teach them how to think negative as they grow. I think thinking will have a huge impact on immune system.

Individuals perception/Internalization of life events determines mental and emotional response resulting in a negative or positive electrical charges in the heart and nervous system which ultimatly affect immune and hormonal response resulting in normal or abnormal physiological effects

e.g

Sympathetic overflow ->reduction in sigA output -> lowered firstline immune defense->infection

-this is copied from BioHealth Diagnostics

"It is amazing that almost any type of stress, whether it be physical or neurological, will cause an immediate and marked increase in ACTH secretion by the anterior pituitary gland, followed within minuits by greatly increased adrenocortical secretion of cortisol."

-Textbook of Medical Physiology 7th Edition, Guyton 1986 WB Saunders Co.

Point is mental is HUGE and though it IS clear from a western scientific point of view its not looked at much IMO

Laughing-I forget stats but the amount of times a kid laughs compared with an adult is amazing and there IS scientific evidence to show that laughter and lover etc effect health and immune function just like negative thinking does.

Look at plasebo. If memory serves 63% of plasebo meds AND ops (yeah put 'em under and cut them open and sticth them back up but no 'op') were effective. (I don't agree with studies like these but I think we can learn from-comes from Nazi studies in war camps)

We are taught about sickness are whole lives... Maybe we could look at health a little.

Food quality certainly effects immune function and it is certainly getting worse and worse..

As we get older we have more time to mess up our bodies. Seriously IMO.. More time to mess up our thought processes etc too

I think we just move away from living...only when our health fails do most of us start to look again. Untill then we just look for another pill or quick fix.. IMO

If the virus was the only aspect how come some classes in schools get sick and others don't? Or some kids rarely get sick and others all the time (look at thier out looks and diets and I bet you will see a pattern).

Its known now (we know so little and should stop playing 'God' IMO-meaning stop trying to up nature and mess with everything) that weak, sickly plants give off a low vibration that actually attract pests to come and return them to the earth to try to grow something worth living.

Healthy plants (organic/biodynamically farmed etc) have actually been covered in barrels and barrels of pests and they only lost 1-2% of the crop (Lady Eve did some cray studies over more than 20 years). The pests don't go where they are not needed.

The human body is the same. A body that is not healthy has a lower vibration (everything has vibrations even when looked at with Western science). The lower the health the lower the vibration... the lower the vibration... guess what? Just like plants.. Natures clean up crews start to come to dispose of the dead and decaying flesh...fungus/yeasts/germs/viruses etc are called to come to take care of business.

(even evidence that Pasteurs germ theory was flawed and that what it was based on was stolen and changed from BeChamp-germ teory is largely what western med is based on-that makes some interesting reading)

A child born tp healthy parents generally will have a healthy immun system develop. As we get older we generally pay little attention to health. We take asprin for a headache yet never look at the cause (often dehydration). We have a pain and we go to the doc for a pill and bever look at what the body is trying to tell us (like you mechanic giving you ear muffs cause you car makes noises-???)

Needless to say our health declines... One day we wake up sick (or at least finally realise we are) and we either start looking at health or still go for the quick fix hoping a surgens knife or med drug will save the day...

IMO-change your health conciousness and change your health.

'symptom' comes from the word 'signal' (Greek I think). Cover up the signals or see what they are warning about... (get a mecahnic that looks at the cause of the noise or one that gives you ear plugs is like getting meds for symptoms...what is the etiology???? the cause!)

thinking, living, sleep, water, food etc etc DO make a difference IMO

[greenwanderer108]

RE : Vaccines,

I can totally see the logic in vaccines not being good for certain viruses diseases that are temporary anyway... i.e. Chicken Pox. For such, kids are supposed to get it and be done with it and it's really stupid to give a vaccine for such in that the immune system can not naturally create the antibodies for future strands-outbreaks, etc.

However, I find it difficult to totally disregard ALL vaccines as useless. What about the diseases that are eternal... Hep A, Heb B, Hep C. etc. Certainly once someone gets them, it could not only be life threatening but the human's immune system can not wipe the virus/disease out of the body for good---at the best make the virus dorment...

So in that case, can you tell me or atleast point to the resource that states which viruses diseases are temporary and which ones are eternal / life threatening for kids. That way I can pick and choose which vaccines will be necesarry and which ones are useless / dangerous. Here is a list of the vaccines listed in his hospital book :

Chicken Pox Vaccine - Useless

Polio - ???

Hep A, B, C, - my assumption is that it is necessary as these diseases are eternal - life threatening

Typhoid - necesarry ? ?

Hib - Some new vaccine that I have no clue about regarding brain infection or something, my son already got one. scheduled for 2 more. All i know is it's real expensive and the doctors say it's essential ??

MMR ??

JEV ??

DT ??

Flu ? Aparently there is a vaccine just for the flu, and if so, I think it must be useless

Okay, so if anyone can fill in the blanks here and/or add to this list. I'm already determined to skip the Chicken pox vaccine but not sure it's best for others. Please help me on this one with the specific facts, other insights

Cheers

[Crushdepth]

Read on the subject. If it was my kid, no vaccine would ever be given to him/her...

Well, that's your choice I guess. Vaccines are not risk-free, but failing to vaccinate your kid leaves them vulnerable to the *greater* risk of dying from common, preventable diseases. The more vulnerable (unvaccinated) people there are wandering around then the easier it is for the bugs to spread to others, so there is also an element of social responsibility too.

tracker-I agree with the vaccines. I had a student ask me about them. I was a bit scared of them at the time I htought it risky but hadn't really looked into. The more research I did the more I found them to be dangerous and scary... Little proof of effectiveness at best.

Little proof of effectiveness? Sorry this statement is utterly ridiculous.

[h90]

These past few days, I've been struck with a horrible cold-fever that gets me thinking delerious during the sleeping hours. Perhaps I got it from my son, though he hasn't shown any obvious strong symptoms the past few weeks. Or perhaps, I got it from somewhere else, which I'd be worried if my 3 month old son got it from me and it was something serious like Dengue or Bird Flue.

I've had a mild case of denge my first time in Thailand, of which my immune system was able to eventually fight off after 4 or 5 days of misery sleeping under a misquito net in the boonies. I've also had another huge flue-fever a few years ago of which I was convinced that it was the bird flue as there was a big break out then, and it was a horrible experience that wasn't like previous fevers. (I hate hospitals and paying someone to tell me to drink lots of fluids and rest, subscribing a bottle of pills to top it off)

Oh yea, I also got a break out of Chicken pox (German measles???) when I was 20, which put me in misery on a bed for well over a month...

So anyway, my question is regarding viruses and immune systems. Why is it that for common colds, flues, and other viruses like Chicken Pox, kids immune systems are much more efficient-sufficient and can fight them off quicker and easier than adults, but when it comes to Bird Flue or Dengue type of diseases, kids immune sytems are more vulnerable, less effective???

Cheers

need to add here: "subscribing a bottle of pills to top it off)" a bottle of antibiotica even if you have a virus and antibiotica do not help....

As for the vaccines:

Hep A, B, C: you need a smart doc, because they need to be tested after some time, because it does not work for everyone. I don't know is there a Hep C vaccines???

Else I want to add: young immuno system is more flexible and the body recovers faster. Adult has greater experiences.

It is like learning:

A child is learning much faster than you do.

For example: we kick you and your child (let your child be 5 years old) out to North Korea. With 6 it will speak Korean and you may know "yes/no/I want a beer".

Kicking you out in Germany (considering you are British). You will be able to communicate on the first day somehow in german, due to the fact, that you have rich experience, uncommone english words which are simillar to germany, crapy jokes, something you pick up on holidays.....

The same with immuno system:

if a complete new series of viruses escape from the US biological weapons program, your child will react faster (and so better) and recover faster.

If the Hongkong flu number 7 comes your system will win. You have a hugh arsenal of different antibodies. Some your body made for different flues. Some attach to a not so perfect working area (for defence the body) of a different flu but that area might be the same. Still not working well but you can attack a little bit.

Another good working antibody might work badly because some amino acids changed, but it still works a little bit.

So in total the virus may multiply itself not 1000x per second, instead just 300x giving your body a lot more time to adjust the protection.

So even the virus is new, due to experience you have an advantage, and all the virus are not new, they are modifications of something, or out of the same family like other (with exceptions)

[backflip]

tracker,

You wrote: "another scary thing: many vaccines contain methyl mecury..."

That is absolutely wrong. The preservative is ETHYL mercury, a completely different substance. You should ignore senator Kennedy's son.

[backflip]

Mark,

"Little proof of effectiveness at best."

What do you teach? God forbid your students realize that you are full of misinformation. Vaccinations have (nearly) eradicated many diseases. I'm sure you and greenwanderer would be happier if polio, whooping cough, cholera, and smallpox killed and maimed millions of additional victims, but I don't know why.

[Mark L.]

ignore if you have decided 100% to believe what you've been taught and have no interest in looking for self

Do your own research and look at independant researchers. What is spoon fed to us, IMO, isn't always the 'truth'.

Its funny that the sources are often credible from inside the med community.. But its not thier position or stance (and certainly doesn't sell them the vaccines and drugs)

http://www.mercola.com/1999/archive/hepati...y_by_belkin.htm

"Hepatitis B Vaccinations: Michael Belkin Testimony to Congress Tuesday May 18, 1999"

Tons of stuff like this from multiple sources... IF you look.

"any qualified, impartial quantitative analyst or statistician not affiliated with Merck, Smithkline, the CDC, the FDA or the AAP who examines these reports will find a clear and undeniable pattern of central nervous system (CNS) and liver disease striking thousands of people within 0-4 days after vaccination with hepatitis B vaccine."

from article mentioned above

since heb B was mentioned

[Sheryl]

I'm a specialist in maternal and child health, child survival in developing countries. I work in places where tens of thousands of children die unnecessarily for lack of vaccines. Chickenpox, mumps, measles can all kill -- much more often in malnourished children but even sometimes in well nourished ones plus leave life long complications. Polio can cause permanent paralysis. Pertussis, diptheria -- killers.

In Cambodia after 10 years of intense donor investments and NGO work, the immunization rate for children has finally risen and as a direct result, for the first time in decades, the infant and child mortality has gone down -- by 30%.

I am well aweare of the mercury issues and other vaccine-related concerns and adverse reactions but it is beyond my comprehesnion that anyone would advocate against vaccination of children in general. Clearly not someone who has seen what I have seen and tried to comfort the gireving mothers I have held as they wept for a child killed by a vaccine-preventable death.

Nopw you might say that this is because they are malnourished, and that it doesn't apply to well nourished kids in the developed world. True that mortality from vaccine preventable diseases is lower in the well nourished/developed workld but it's still high enough to make vaccination safer than the smal risk of vaccine associated side effects.

Briefly after getting my MPH I worked in the epidemiology dept of a US State Helath Dept where there was an outbreak of pertussis (whooping cough) -- almost entirely among affluent kids because it is the pertussis component of the DPT vaccine that causes the feveres in many kids, and well-off parents with private docs talked them into not giving the pertussis part the second & third time around. And guess what...some of those kids died as a direct result.

Now all that I just siad is on the subject of vaccines in general. Some vaccines are riskier than others, some less effective than others, some people are at higher risk of adverse vaccine reactions than others, so I'm certainly not saying that everyone should have every vaccine. Just that more effective ones are life-savers more often than not. And that public health professionals like myself are neither in the pay of pharmaceutical companies nor out to harm anyone, quite the opposite.

[greenwanderer108]

back off back flip.

I never disregarded all vaccinations as useless or unnecessary, but most definately not all are beneficial and/or necessary for humans and our immune systems.

As I stated before, Chicken Pox...

Explain to me why we should vaccinate our kids from this temporary non-life threatening virus ...

If you need a reason why we shouldn't, just read my posts above, I'd hate to repeat myself again.

[meadish_sweetball]

ignore if you have decided 100% to believe what you've been taught and have no interest in looking for self

Do your own research and look at independant researchers. What is spoon fed to us, IMO, isn't always the 'truth'.

Its funny that the sources are often credible from inside the med community.. But its not thier position or stance (and certainly doesn't sell them the vaccines and drugs)

http://www.mercola.com/1999/archive/hepati...y_by_belkin.htm

"Hepatitis B Vaccinations: Michael Belkin Testimony to Congress Tuesday May 18, 1999"

Tons of stuff like this from multiple sources... IF you look.

"any qualified, impartial quantitative analyst or statistician not affiliated with Merck, Smithkline, the CDC, the FDA or the AAP who examines these reports will find a clear and undeniable pattern of central nervous system (CNS) and liver disease striking thousands of people within 0-4 days after vaccination with hepatitis B vaccine."

from article mentioned above

since heb B was mentioned

I've taken Twinrix with booster shots, and experienced no adverse effects. "Thousands" of people sounds like a lot - but how large was the entire population tested?

Almost all drugs have adverse effects on a percentage of people, and the regulations in most Western countries demand these are reported, even the ones occurring in a very small number of the total test population. The same would be true for vaccines.

But by all means, not taking everything at face value is important - that includes rumours and conspiracy theories.

[Mark L.]

There are times and places for everything. All I'm saying is I think opening our eyes and being responsible for our own health and looking at where info comes from.

Sick people after need drugs and vaccines as was mentioned above. Is a lessor of evils when things have progressed that far towards death and deacay and away form health and vitality.

There is always a time and place..

Imagine if people were fed healthy, had good water and sanitation and hygene...would these things be such an issue? Would vaccines be essential for survival?

I'm sure there are many wonderful people doing wonderful work. Thats great.

I'm not knocking that.

But the whole concept of vaccinating the world and for everything and everyone is flawed IMO

The people in the trenchers may be doing saint like work. It doesn't mean that the money and the game and plan to litterally vaccinate everyone isn't flawed, biased, or financially motivated.

Two views can both have truth. There doesn't always need to be a right and wrong

I just think we should look for ourselves and not blindly follow 'experts' who like it or not ARE influenced in many ways, if nothing else, in that most studies are funded by the people that profit of the results..

(according to The Ecologist 75 out of 15,000 food and drug researchers were independant... I don't know about you but when someone tells my what is healthy and safe and good for me...I'd like to keep conflict of interest at bay)

A time and place...

In your proffessional opinion what would happen if the millions in research and cost of vaccines etc etc were put to good food, clean water and health (not sickness) programs.. Do you think there woul dbe the same need for vaccines???

A time and place...

[Sheryl]

As I stated before, Chicken Pox...

Explain to me why we should vaccinate our kids from this temporary non-life threatening virus ...

Because while it doesn't kill or disable the majority of children, it does do so to some, and this percentage is higher than the percentage that suffer serious adverse reactions to the vaccine.

"Complications of chicken pow include Secondary streptococcal infection of the vesicles may lead to erysipelas, sepsis, acute hemorrhagic nephritis, or, rarely, necrotizing fasciitis. Staphylococci may also infect the vesicles and cause pyoderma or bullous impetigo. Pneumonia as a complication of severe chickenpox is encountered in adults, newborns, and immunocompromised patients but is unusual in young children. Myocarditis, transient arthritis or hepatitis, and hemorrhagic complications have also been reported. Hemorrhagic varicella should raise suspicion of varicella-associated thrombocytopenic purpura, secondary bacterial sepsis, underlying malignancy, or immunodeficiency. Post-chickenpox encephalopathy occurs in < 1/1000 cases. Like the encephalitis following measles, it tends to occur toward the end of the disease or 1 to 2 wk after its termination. One of the most common neurologic complications is acute postinfectious cerebellar ataxia. Transverse myelitis, cranial nerve palsies, and multiple sclerosis-like clinical manifestations have also occurred. Encephalitis may be fatal, but the prognosis for complete recovery from CNS complications is generally good and is far better than in measles encephalitis. Reye's syndrome, an unusual but severe complication, may begin 3 to 8 days after onset of the rash "

In addition, being highly contagious, there is a risk that your child could infect someone who is in fact immunocompromised, or a newborn, in which case they stand a much more significant risk of all the nasty things described above.

Recommendations about routine child vaccinations are made by independent panels of publuic helath experts whio are NOT affiliated with the drug companies...and they do NOT automatically recommend all existing vaccines for all children. They recommend those vaccines which overall -- taking into account the knwon risks associated with the vaccine -- still reduce the overall risk of death to the child.

Yes, your child will probably survive chickenpox. But if he or she is one of the unlikely minority who doesn't -- or infects someone else who doesn't -- how will you feel knowing you could have prevented it?

[Sheryl]

In your proffessional opinion what would happen if the millions in research and cost of vaccines etc etc were put to good food, clean water and health (not sickness) programs.. Do you think there woul dbe the same need for vaccines???

Pretty much, yes. Americans already had adequate diets and clean water when the polio epidemic in the 1950's swept through and killed and permanently paralyzed many children. Rabies will kill everyone irrespective of your diet and sanitation. Measles mortlaity would be lower in the thrid world if nutrition was better, but still higher than the mortality associated with the vaccine.

The cost of the "basic"vaccine sis extraordinarily low, by the way. There are 2 reasons public health professionals love vaccines: (1) they are the most cost-effective intervention around. Nothing else copares in bang for the buck, (2) they are, assuming correct handling, highly effective -- far more so than the other types of interventions you mention. In large part becauser they are independent of behavior. One ofthe problems with clean water interventions -- aside from being exteremely expensive and hard to do -- is that they can be rendered inefefctive if the population does not also change their hygiene and water handling practices, and getting people to change life long practices is very, very hard.

Don't misunderstand me -- I'm all fopr clean water, sanitation & nutrition interventions too, in fact I design and implement them. Nutrition interventions requiore a great deal more than just food, they also require addressing the malnutirtion-disease viciuos cycle with things like...vaccines.

BTW I'm not sure what you refer to when you talk about "food and drug researchers", I would assume people who do studies for the FDA & the like. But there is a great deal of other public health research going on and regulalry published, most of the authors are thoroughly honest & independnet, and as to those who aren't, everyone in the field knows who they are. This independent research consisitently shows that the benefit of most vaccines (I'm talking about well-established ones not new ones where the verdict is still out) vastly exceed their risks. So does my own field experience and that of everyone I know.

[vinny]

The Pneumococcal Conjugate Vaccine (PCV), brand name Prevenar™ for infants under 2 years old is now also available in Thailand.

[Mark L.]

Chickenpox Vaccine Works LESS Than Half the Time

New study findings indicate that, at least among one group of children, the varicella vaccine is much less effective than previously reported.

Dr. Jane Seward, from the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta, and colleagues reported on their investigation of a recent outbreak of chickenpox at a New Hampshire day care center.

The outbreak in 23 children began with a child who had been vaccinated, contradicting the belief that such "breakthrough" cases are not contagious, Dr. Seward noted. The child, a 4-year-old, was confirmed not to have developed chickenpox infection from the vaccine, but probably developed it after exposure to a sibling with shingles.

Previous findings indicate that the vaccine's effectiveness ranges from 71% to 91%. In the current study, however, the effectiveness that was only about 40%.

41st Annual Interscience Conference on Antimicrobial Agents and Chemotherapy Chicago December 16, 2001

----------

The medical literature has a surprising number of studies documenting vaccine failure. Measles, mumps, small pox, pertussis, polio and Hib outbreaks have all occurred in vaccinated populations. , , , , In 1989 the CDC reported: "Among school-aged children, [measles] outbreaks have occurred in schools with vaccination levels of greater than 98 percent. [They] have occurred in all parts of the country, including areas that had not reported measles for years."

The CDC even reported a measles outbreak in a documented 100% vaccinated population. A study examining this phenomenon concluded, "The apparent paradox is that as measles immunization rates rise to high levels in a population, measles becomes a disease of immunized persons."

A more recent study found that measles vaccination "produces immune suppression which contributes to an increased susceptibility to other infections." These studies suggest that the goal of complete "immunization" may actually be counter-productive, a notion underscored by instances in which epidemics followed complete immunization of entire countries.

Japan experienced yearly increases in small pox following the introduction of compulsory vaccines in 1872. By 1892, there were 29,979 deaths, and all had been vaccinated.

In the early 1900's, the Philippines experienced their worst smallpox epidemic ever after 8 million people received 24.5 million vaccine doses (achieving a vaccination rate of 95%); the death rate quadrupled as a result.

Before England's first compulsory vaccination law in 1853, the largest two-year smallpox death rate was about 2,000; in 1870-71, England and Wales had over 23,000 smallpox deaths. In 1989, the country of Oman experienced a widespread polio outbreak six months after achieving complete vaccination.

In the US in 1986, 90% of 1300 pertussis cases in Kansas were "adequately vaccinated." 72% of pertussis cases in the 1993 Chicago outbreak were fully up to date with their vaccinations.

-by Alan Phillips, Director

Citizens for Healthcare Freedom

Last Revision: May 2001

its largely what we choose to believe and who...

peace